DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, April 21 1999 Volume 04 : Number 238 In this issue: Re: blowers Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Propane blower Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: O2 sensor idea Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Doubles (was: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler.) op-amps Re: Injector flow ratings (was: Bosch Flow Ratings) Re: Propane blower Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: op-amps Re: op-amps Re: op-amps Re: op-amps Re: Injector flow ratings (was: Bosch Flow Ratings) Re: Injector flow ratings (was: Bosch Flow Ratings) RE: op-amps Re: Injector flow ratings (was: Bosch Flow Ratings) Propane Re: Injector flow ratings (was: Bosch Flow Ratings) [none] Re: Propane blower Re(2): sequential gearboxes Re: op-amps Re: LUCAS P DIGITAL Re: op-amps Re: O2 sensor idea See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:47:25 GMT From: charlesmorris@xxx.com (Charles) Subject: Re: blowers On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 05:00:01 -0400, you wrote: >Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:33:34 -0400 >From: "David A. Cooley" >I had a friend look into this back in California... he got 5 blowers for >$300.00... figured he'd make a good one out of all of em. >Wound up junking them... The clearances are WAY too loose to build pressure >in a gas engine... and they were within spec for the Diesels. >Found out that machine work to convert one would be almost $1000! >Wound up junking the lot for $50.00 I was about to do the same thing in the mid-1980's, and discovered the same thing your friend did (before buying an old bus blower though). Then I went to BDS and paid $2000 (price complete in '85 with manifold, belt, drive hub and pulleys). Price to go the junk route was nearly as high with no guarantees or experience... As usual, "Speed costs money, son. How fast do you want to go"? ;) - -Charles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:53:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Squash Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. 10 degrees is not much! How much boost do u plan on having with your 431? Somewhat off the subject, but if water injection is used, is it pre or post turbo? Just curious. Thanks, Andy - --- Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > With this radiator cooled intercooler, how much > higher > > does the water temp in the engine run? > > The water temp leaving the radiator was about 10 > degrees hotter. Not > sure if we did something wrong or mismeasured it, > however that's > negligable. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:14:40 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > Also, remember two different applications. Try you mustang with a trailer > (pulling it, not on it), and 2-3 minutes at 2/3 throttle in 2nd gear like > on a long step grade, and you would have luved any help........ This I can relate to obviously :) > Try looking at a farm tractor where they run 90% throttle for 6-7 hours > atta time. I didn't get your analogy here... not ever seeing a "real" farm tractor, just those things yuppies mow their lawns with. Are they intercooled? Or use rad fluid in the airstream or something like that? I passed by the John Deere website hoping to catch a snippet or two, but I didn't see anything that helped me "get" the analogy. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:14:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Squash Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. i just got a bunch of doubles, too Andy - --- Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > It never ceases to amaze me that you seem to have > always tried something > > that I've wondered about or wanted to do. Can you > expand a little more on > > your experiments on intercooling using radiator > fluid? > > Is this a server repeat? or a user repeat? This is > the first duplicate message > I've gotten, and curious as to its origin. > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + > turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:27:58 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Propane blower You can't send attachments over 40K... the mail software on the server flags them and won't let them through. If you upload it to the Incoming directory on the FTP site, then post the name, we can all get it. - -----Original Message----- From: Regnirps@xxx.com> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:20 PM Subject: Re: Propane blower >I can attach a JPEG if anyone wants or a Quicktime if you want to hear it :) > > How do people feel about attachments on this list? I'll do it from a Mac so, >no virus possibilities. > >Charlie Springer > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:40:12 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. On some of the 4088 Tractors, and 436/466 CID International Truck engines they bury the intercooler in the intake, and run coolant thru it. Analogy was the farm tractor can work all day at over 90% throttle towing big heavy loads without thermally overloading the system. Not as effecient for a short term blast, but when ya thermally overload a limited "sink" your all done, period.. Any other water type system is going to reduce air flow to the radiator as well as thermally overload the system. Then you have an overheated engine, that you can't make any boost with. Sounds like fun, NOT... Big difference in applications, car to truck, and even bigger drag racer to OTR heavy duty Bruce > > Also, remember two different applications. Try you mustang with a trailer > > (pulling it, not on it), and 2-3 minutes at 2/3 throttle in 2nd gear like > > on a long step grade, and you would have luved any help........ > > This I can relate to obviously :) > > > Try looking at a farm tractor where they run 90% throttle for 6-7 hours > > atta time. > > I didn't get your analogy here... not ever seeing a "real" farm tractor, just > those things yuppies mow their lawns with. Are they intercooled? Or use rad > fluid in the airstream or something like that? I passed by the John Deere > website hoping to catch a snippet or two, but I didn't see anything that helped > me "get" the analogy. > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:26:17 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > On some of the 4088 Tractors, and 436/466 CID International Truck engines > they bury the intercooler in the intake, and run coolant thru it. Got it ! Now your analogy makes perfect sense :) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:30:12 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > around 110 + degrees C. About 110-120 degrees F on the cold side actually. > The use of a reservoir if you are not concerned with > the weight implications would also help but not Weight is not a problem for a 5900lb truck + driver + gas + 2500lb race car + unknown weight trailer. Another 200lbs quite honestly wouldn't make a difference. The problem with coolant tanks, ice boxes, and other "one-shot" non-rechargable items is that its great for drag racing, i.e. 5-8 second bursts depending on the car. Long term towing, the dry ice (for example) would disappear. Using coolant provides a constant "cooler than the turbo output temperature". As Bruce said more eloquently than I have... its consistant, not necessary the lowest temperature. But is it low enough to avoid plumbing in seperate intercoolers, storage containers, swirl pots, and all that other stuff? I'm not really sure. I imagine it will have to be a test and see situation. Another 20-30 days and I might have some realistic numbers, and a setup to install in the truck. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:38:24 -0500 From: Daniel Ciobota Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. I missed the beginning of this thread, but Frederic's intercooler project caught my eye. I did a similar project last year along the same lines, but the results were a bit disappointing. here's what I did: My engine at the time was a supercharged 5.0l mustang motor, putting out 390rwhp with 7psi boost at the throttle. I was running a buick boost retard at the time, and I wanted to run max timing on pump gas. The only way to do that was to cool down the incoming charge (205deg) down to about 110-120. There are water/air intercoolers for those motors, but they cost $1000+. I wanted something cheap. The system I put together was made of the following: One transmission oil cooler (24x6x1"), cut in half lengthwise, making it a 24x3x1" One transmission oil cooler, same as above but not cut. One RV water supply pump (40gph, 9psi static pressure, I think). It was something like $70 at the rv supply place. One windshield washer tank, modified to accept 3/8" hose. 3/8 hose. The way I set it up was this. I inserted the cut cooler into the intake plenum (a cobra intake) by removing the 3" plug off one side of the plenum, and welding a plug on one end of the cooler, with lines running through. I aligned the cooler so the air had to go through the cooler to get to the runners. The pump would pump water from the other cooler (the exhanger), through the plenum cooler and back into the water tank. On race day, the pump would be reversed and the water tank be filled with ice water for max cooling. I took the setup to a flow bench and did before/after flows with the plenum cooler. Then, I ran a temp test with the cooler not running and the cooler running ice water (35deg). With an incoming air at 120deg, the outgoing air was a mere 5 deg cooler! The water temp hardly changed. This was on an upper intake flowing 273cfm on the flow bench. Soo, my take on the trans cooler idea was that it was not nearly enough, at least not for that setup. Albeit Frederic's setup has a cooler at least 4 times the volume probably, I think it's the exposed surface area that counts. I've looked at Vortech water/air intercooler, and it has a much larger surface area that even the largest trans coolers. Fred, are you going to do some numbers testing on that beast? I'd like to know what kind of temp drop you're getting at what flow... maybe I gave up too soon, but my results were pretty discouraging. Btw, I still have the water pump, the tank and the coolers if someone wants to play with this some more... Daniel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:01:09 EDT From: DemonTSi@xxx.com Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. In a message dated 4/20/99 10:40:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ryddler@xxx.com writes: << I am in desperate need of an intercooler. An air/air unit won't work for me. An air/freon unit (using a A/C evaporator) sounds quite slick, but I don't know enough about A/C systems yet to know how well this would work. An air/water unit is the best solution, but has the complexity of a 2nd heat exchanger, pump, coolant tank, etc. I had thought (briefly) about using radiator fluid instead but dismissed it without much thought (afterall, radiator fluid is hot right?). >> Wouldn't it be a bad idea to use coolant to cool your intercooler, even if it's temp is less than that of the charge air? The last thing you want to do is heat up the ic to any degree, so I think it'd be more benefitial to run an air-air unit, and try to either situate it somewhere it can receive plenty of flowing air (front of car, or under it with a scoop), or you can build a ram-air type fixture for it. I can understand how this coolant-cooled ic setup may work (marginally) as long as your coolant temps are lower than your intake charge temps, but even when the coolant is at the 110degrees or so that someone mentioned, wouldn't running cool air to the ic be better than surrounding it's fins with 110+degrees of liquid? On this subject, I've been toying with the idea of cooling intake air using chilled methanol...and threw together some sketches here: http://members.xoom.com/VanAble/Crx/ic.gif This first one is for an inline-type ic that doesn't use a typical core to impede air flow. The "fins" are perforated metal disks welded to the intake tube. The whole works is enclosed by a larger cylinder welded shut with end caps (this is very similar in design to a straight-flow muffler). There'll be a fill cap and drain valve, of course...and you could use something other than methanol. The other idea is for a whole intake manifold that can be seen here: http://members.xoom.com/VanAble/Crx/intake.gif Here, the intake plenum, and a section of fuel rail is surrounded by an enclosure filled with methanol. Bear in mind these ideas are for a strictly, drag race-only car. But can you guys see these things working or.....?? Van ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:45:52 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. There is nothing wrong with an interheater during part throttle. It would likely improve economy by improving atomization of the fuel. You could call it a regenerator and it would sound high tech. While you're at it, heat the fuel to 150 deg F or so. Gary Derian big snip > Oh, and finally. Assume you're cruising a long stretch of freeway where > you're not hardly ever in boost. The intake temp will likely be much cooler > than the 100 - 110 degree radiator outlet temp so your intercooler becomes > an interheater. Do you just plan on living with this or do you use some > kind of solenoid valve or something to block flow to the IC unless you're > under boost? > > thanks > > --Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:04:33 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea - ----- Original Message ----- From: David A. Cooley To: Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 1999 2:35 PM Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea Try one step cooler plug. Texaco is "usually" one of the better ones. Ya done any alky testing?. Bruce > I've tried 4 different brands here in NC... Chevron, Shell, Texaco and > Amoco... All are bone white even with a VERY rich (950mv) WOT cut. > > > >> Isn't this the basics Bruce (NO flame) > >> On unleaded you can't read color (other than red , way over rich ,way > lean > >,oil > >> , and other engine failures ) > > > >Red/pink, mangenese additive-change brands. > >Can't read color or too white check for alky content of fuel (test > >tube+eyedropper) > >If plug burns reflecting either of the above, change brands > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:38:50 EDT From: FHPSTANG1@xxx.com Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. In a message dated 4/20/99 2:59:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tc75918@xxx.com writes: << Oh, and finally. Assume you're cruising a long stretch of freeway where you're not hardly ever in boost. The intake temp will likely be much cooler than the 100 - 110 degree radiator outlet temp so your intercooler becomes an interheater. >> Hmmmm, On long stretches, wouldn't you benefit from the hot air? I would think that the added heat would give you some extra MPG. Just a thought... John Miller ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:35:41 -0700 (PDT) From: James Weiler Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. I've got a basic question here. What kind of water pump flow rates does one want to aim for? Do you want to recirculate the water once/min., twice, etc? Do you use just straight water? Are there corroson issues, I would assume antifreeze would help as long as it was aluminum compatible. May be some 'Redline water wetter' would help. Lastly, is the intercooler and remote mounted radiator suposed to be the same surface area? Or should the radiator be twice as large as the intercooler? Any particular ratios desirable? I've got an '88 XR4Ti turbo, they come non-intercooled. I can get a T-bird TC intercooler cheap, so I'm thinking about welding some reservoir tanks to it as making it into an air/water device. The TC has a hood scoop where as the XR4Ti doesn't. Just an idea. Thanks jw On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 ECMnut@xxx.com wrote: > Some good examples of factory liquid/air intercoolers are > 1.) Syclone Typhoon > 2. Lotus Espirit Turbo > 3. Toy MR2 turbo > They have totally separate cooling systems, with a chiller > intercooler and pump, all tied together with heater hose. > The Syclone folks use a shurflow RV fresh water pump > to replace the wimpy bosch unit.. It moves twice as much > water and corrodes less. > Mike V > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:55:15 -0700 (MST) From: d houlton x0710 Subject: Doubles (was: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler.) - --- Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > It never ceases to amaze me that you seem to have > always tried something > > that I've wondered about or wanted to do. Can you > expand a little more on > > your experiments on intercooling using radiator > fluid? > > Is this a server repeat? or a user repeat? This is > the first duplicate message > I've gotten, and curious as to its origin. > > -- Well I didn't re-send it again, but I did just start getting a rash of double posts as well. They're still coming in too. - --Dan houlster@xxx.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:03:43 -0700 (PDT) From: James Weiler Subject: op-amps What is an op-amp and what does it do? I have an LM2904N 8-pin chip and I understand it it a dual low power op-amp and I'd like to understand it's function. Thanks to all in advance, jw ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:54:39 +1200 From: Mike Morrin Subject: Re: Injector flow ratings (was: Bosch Flow Ratings) At 10:34 am 21/04/99 -0700, d houlton x0710 wrote: >Frederic Breitwieser wrote: >Ok, so maybe I can contribute a little bit finally. I went through the >agony of looking for injectors a couple months ago. I ended up finding >4 different web sites with info and compilied all the findings into an >Excel spreadsheet. > >The URL for them is: >http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/efi.htm I downloaded the spreadsheet, but Excel97 refuses to open it, asying it may be a read-only file etc. Does it work for anyone else? Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:36:40 -0700 From: Vogt Family Subject: Re: Propane blower On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, "Gary Derian" wrote: > > Way back in the old days, I converted a BMW 2002 to turbo and propane, using > a propane carb. Had 7:1 compression and 25 psi boost. That thing would > FLY! Propane is an excellent fuel as you noted. The small loss of power is > easily made up with the extra boost it allows. A NA propane engine will > lose 10% due to the volume taken up by the gaseous fuel. With boost, only > the mechanical strength of the engine is the limit. Well not really, it can > still detonate but its still good stuff. A monster truck I watched at the county fair had a 500-some inch Ford motor with 1 turbo per cylinder and liquid propane injection. Not only did it smoke all the competition, it was quieter, too (quiet being a relative term) Birken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:42:08 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. If you want some serious info., Spearco out in CA has been doing this stuff for years, and include a bunch of info in their catalog. Sorry, I don't have an address for em Bruce > I've got a basic question here. What kind of water pump flow rates does > one want to aim for? Do you want to recirculate the water once/min., > twice, etc? Do you use just straight water? Are there corroson issues, I > would assume antifreeze would help as long as it was aluminum > compatible. May be some 'Redline water wetter' would help. > > Lastly, is the intercooler and remote mounted radiator suposed to be the > same surface area? Or should the radiator be twice as large as the > intercooler? Any particular ratios desirable? > > I've got an '88 XR4Ti turbo, they come non-intercooled. I can get a > T-bird TC intercooler cheap, so I'm thinking about welding some reservoir > tanks to it as making it into an air/water device. The TC has a hood > scoop where as the XR4Ti doesn't. Just an idea. > Thanks > jw > > On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 ECMnut@xxx.com wrote: > > > Some good examples of factory liquid/air intercoolers are > > 1.) Syclone Typhoon > > 2. Lotus Espirit Turbo > > 3. Toy MR2 turbo > > They have totally separate cooling systems, with a chiller > > intercooler and pump, all tied together with heater hose. > > The Syclone folks use a shurflow RV fresh water pump > > to replace the wimpy bosch unit.. It moves twice as much > > water and corrodes less. > > Mike V > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:49:46 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: op-amps > What is an op-amp and what does it do? I have an LM2904N 8-pin chip and > I understand it it a dual low power op-amp and I'd like to understand > it's function. OP-AMP stands for "Operational Amplifier". By setting the gain with two resistors, you can amplify or deamplfy a signal easily. Say you have a sensor, like an 02 sensor, that produces 0-1V. You can use an OP-AMP to change the output range to 0-5V for your microprocessor or other device. This is the most common use actually. Also, most stereo pre-amplifiers use variations of the op-amp. Remember the turntables used to have a pre-amplifier installed before your tuner? These converted the 0-350mv signal to 0-1.5V typically required by stereo systems, as well as the impedance, which is another use for an Operational Amplifier. "Operational" comes into play as you can add signals (mix), subtract signals, invert, and do other neat stuff. So, you can take your 0-5V input and reverse the range (5v - 0V), etc. They are many variations, some are temperature compensated, so that their output is consistant with a wide temperature range - most analog semiconductors will drift with temperature shifts. Some Op-Amps also have high impedance inputs, good for high sensitivity applications. Hope that wasn't too convoluted. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:48:25 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: op-amps Radio Shack has a series of little booklets, that deal with 555s Op-Amps, and a couple other items, written by Forrest Mimms III.. Basically it's a little dealy that does something to a signal when power is supplied, too much of something and all the smokes squeezes out. Bruce (Still tryin to figure out what Lucas did wrong) > What is an op-amp and what does it do? I have an LM2904N 8-pin chip and > I understand it it a dual low power op-amp and I'd like to understand > it's function. > > Thanks to all in advance, > jw > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:07:28 +0200 From: "Nils Björkman" Subject: Re: op-amps Hi An Op-amp is an amplifyer with an inverting and an non-inverting input. By selecting signals to the two inputs you can select if you want your inputsignal to be just amplifyed or inverted and amplifyed. The amplification is selected by the resistors connected to the input and an feedback resistor from the output to the inverting input. If you want to do some calcualtions on op-amps take a look at: http://www.vwlowen.demon.co.uk/java/opamp.htm To get the datasheets of your amplifyer take a look at: http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM2904.html If I find any mor links i will post them Nils Björkman James Weiler skrev: > What is an op-amp and what does it do? I have an LM2904N 8-pin chip and > I understand it it a dual low power op-amp and I'd like to understand > it's function. > > Thanks to all in advance, > jw ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:15:32 -0600 From: kv@xxx.com Subject: Re: op-amps Also- By definition- the Ideal op-amp has high impedance inputs... there is another class of op-amps called "current feedback" opamps that change the rules a bit though... these are quite neat and can be read about in various databooks. Primary advantage is that they have a constant bandwidth regardless of gain. ________________________________________________ Kevin Vannorsdel IBM Arm Electronics Development 408-256-6492 Tie 276-6492 kv@xxx.com Frederic Breitwieser on 04/21/99 01:49:46 PM Please respond to diy_efi@xxx.edu To: diy_efi@xxx.edu cc: (bcc: Kevin Vannorsdel/San Jose/IBM) Subject: Re: op-amps > What is an op-amp and what does it do? I have an LM2904N 8-pin chip and > I understand it it a dual low power op-amp and I'd like to understand > it's function. OP-AMP stands for "Operational Amplifier". By setting the gain with two resistors, you can amplify or deamplfy a signal easily. Say you have a sensor, like an 02 sensor, that produces 0-1V. You can use an OP-AMP to change the output range to 0-5V for your microprocessor or other device. This is the most common use actually. Also, most stereo pre-amplifiers use variations of the op-amp. Remember the turntables used to have a pre-amplifier installed before your tuner? These converted the 0-350mv signal to 0-1.5V typically required by stereo systems, as well as the impedance, which is another use for an Operational Amplifier. "Operational" comes into play as you can add signals (mix), subtract signals, invert, and do other neat stuff. So, you can take your 0-5V input and reverse the range (5v - 0V), etc. They are many variations, some are temperature compensated, so that their output is consistant with a wide temperature range - most analog semiconductors will drift with temperature shifts. Some Op-Amps also have high impedance inputs, good for high sensitivity applications. Hope that wasn't too convoluted. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:31:46 -0700 (MST) From: Daniel Houlton Subject: Re: Injector flow ratings (was: Bosch Flow Ratings) Mike Morrin wrote: > > At 10:34 am 21/04/99 -0700, d houlton x0710 wrote: > >Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > >Ok, so maybe I can contribute a little bit finally. I went through the > >agony of looking for injectors a couple months ago. I ended up finding > >4 different web sites with info and compilied all the findings into an > >Excel spreadsheet. > > > >The URL for them is: > >http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/efi.htm > > I downloaded the spreadsheet, but Excel97 refuses to open it, asying it may > be a read-only file etc. Does it work for anyone else? > > Mike Mike and others, Sorry about that. I'm not sure why it happens. I've just re-done it a half dozen times and I keep getting that same error. I'm not sure why. So instead, I've zipped the files individually and uploaded them. These seem to download and open correctly. I also saved them as Excel 5.0 / 95 for people with older versions. Plus they're a lot smaller. Should have done this in the first place but wasn't thinking. - --Dan houlster@xxx.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:56:33 -0700 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: Injector flow ratings (was: Bosch Flow Ratings) >I downloaded the spreadsheet, but Excel97 refuses to open it, asying it may >be a read-only file etc. Does it work for anyone else? Worked fine for me........ Walt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:01:09 -0500 From: "Bartz, Jamison" Subject: RE: op-amps Here is a very simplified explanation of an op-amp. Vsup+ |\ | | \| Vin+ ---|+ \ | \____ Vout | / Vin- ---|- / | /| |/ | Vsup- Vout = Gain_of_opamp * ( Vin+ - Vin- ) The gain of the op-amp is very high. (Like 100 to 2000 or so.) The output will not necessarily go that high though. The limits on the output are the voltage supplies to the chip. (Vsup+ and Vsup-). Since the chip you have is a dual chip, it usually means that there are two of the op-amps on the chip. There are many different uses for the op-amp. Some are for amplifiers or comparators. Jamison Bartz Enterprise Computing Group Workstation Division Compaq Computer Corporation Phone: 281-518-3372 E-Mail: Jamison.Bartz@xxx.com -----Original Message----- From: James Weiler [mailto:james@xxx.ca] Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 3:04 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: op-amps What is an op-amp and what does it do? I have an LM2904N 8-pin chip and I understand it it a dual low power op-amp and I'd like to understand it's function. Thanks to all in advance, jw ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:01:55 -0700 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: Injector flow ratings (was: Bosch Flow Ratings) >Theres a sheet for each of the sources's data, as well as a sheet that >gives the source location and a code for them. The main "Composite" >sheet then is a collection of all these. Theres I think 4 different >manufacturers and about 205 entries. A lot of these are duplicates >though cause I list all sources. i.e. the Bosch 0 280 150 400 has 3 >entries for instance. It's good to cross check and see if they all >agree on the flow rate. This is great information Dan! Do you have any data on B 280 412 912, or possibly 0 280 412 912? Contact me off list if you wish. Thanks; Walt. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:22:38 -0400 From: Barry Tisdale Subject: Propane Not really EFI related, but the topic of propane came up. I've got a 5Kw generator (gasoline, Briggs & Stratton). We have prolonged outages here in the boonies; refilling's a problem. I'd like to run it off my 1000gal LP tank; anybody know if conversions for these small engines are available? Thanks sincerely - Barry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:52:32 -0700 From: Dennis Bell Subject: Re: Injector flow ratings (was: Bosch Flow Ratings) I was unable to open either spreadsheet with Excel 97, Win 95 OSR 2. Very puzzling. Dennis Mike Morrin wrote: > At 10:34 am 21/04/99 -0700, d houlton x0710 wrote: > >Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > >Ok, so maybe I can contribute a little bit finally. I went through the > >agony of looking for injectors a couple months ago. I ended up finding > >4 different web sites with info and compilied all the findings into an > >Excel spreadsheet. > > > >The URL for them is: > >http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/efi.htm > > I downloaded the spreadsheet, but Excel97 refuses to open it, asying it may > be a read-only file etc. Does it work for anyone else? > > Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:55:51 -0400 From: "Lou" Subject: [none] Hello. Dose anyone out there have a copy of a performance improving ROM for an 88 GMC jimmy? The car has the 4.3 V6 and an aod tranny. Is three anywhere I can look on the web to find a disassembly of the ROM for my particular setup? Is it a common setup ? Did GM build many different ECM's for their whole fleet of cars, or are three just a few ECM modules, but each has a different ROM in it? Sorry of all of the silly questions, but I am still new to this group. Thanks for your time. Lou ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:59:19 EDT From: Regnirps@xxx.com Subject: Re: Propane blower n5xmt@xxx. Cooley) wrote: << You can't send attachments over 40K... the mail software on the server flags them and won't let them through. If you upload it to the Incoming directory on the FTP site, then post the name, we can all get it. >> I'll stick it on a web page and send the URL. Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:29:08 +0100 From: Robert.D.Devlin@xxx. Devlin) Subject: Re(2): sequential gearboxes A normal H pattern gearshift can be made to function as a sequential by the use of two hydraulic actuators. One actuator operates the clutch ( to disengage / engage ), the other operates the gear selector directly. A system of this type was developed jointly by Isuzu motors and Fujitsu. The actuators each consist of a hydraulic cylinder that is fed by a fluid supply from a resevoir pressurised by a pump driven from the engine. Each cylinder has two solenoid operated valves controlled by pulse width modulation. One valve is of large diameter to allow rapid fluid movement and the other a smaller valve to permit more accurate control. Hence, reaction time and gear change duration can be suprisingly short, yet dimensional control very accurate. The system software is relatively simple so some sort of ignition retarding control could be easily incorporated to allow flat out shifts. The system, having the benefit of clutchless changes could also be put to use to aid those who cannot operate foot pedals but want to drive a 'manual' car. I recently read a technical paper on the subject and if I can find a reference will pass it on. I hope this may be of some use. Cheers, Rob Devlin, England. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:58:32 From: Bob Tom Subject: Re: op-amps >OP-AMP stands for "Operational Amplifier". By setting the gain with two >resistors, you can amplify or deamplfy a signal easily. Say you have a >sensor, like an 02 sensor, that produces 0-1V. You can use an OP-AMP to >change the output range to 0-5V for your microprocessor or other device. >This is the most common use actually. I have been told that the following tip can be used at the track to realize some real performance gains (2/10 -3/10 quicker and .3 to .4 mph faster in the 1/4 mile. Disconnect the IAT (intake air temperature) sensor and plug in a xxk ohm resistor to fool the computer staying in "warm up" mode. Can an op-amp be used to achieve the same result? Another tip was to put a 2nd water temperature sensor in the windshield fluid container and wire this to a switch in conjunction with the normal water temperature wiring. Could an op-amp be used instead of this set up? Thanks for any opinions. Bob Burlington, Ontario Current: 97 CC Sport,5.2L,3.55SG auto.,4x2,Gibson dual,KN 96 Grand Caravan ES,3.8L 85 Shelby Intercooled Turbo Charger,2.2L,5-spd man. 78 customized B100 with '69 340-4bbl,3-spd auto. 70 Challenger,383-4bbl,slap-stik auto.,3.23SG,hemi orange ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:41:49 +0000 From: xxalexx@xxx.com Subject: Re: LUCAS P DIGITAL I worked on the externals on the European XJS high compression lean burn "Ed May Fireball Head?" I could richen the mixture by inserting a t-bleed needle valve in the trunk vaccum line. Very clean combustion, and good metering got it to pass federal emissions with no o2 sensors. Adjustments to TPS seemed to do nothing. Alex > Hi all, > I am a newbie to the list so I apologize if this has been asked before. > Has anyone on the list played with this system? > I would like to hear from you, specifically if it was attached to a Jaguar > xjs v12. > regards > Tom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:02:22 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: op-amps > "warm up" mode. Can an op-amp be used to achieve the same result? I don't see why not. There are no laws against lying to your ECM. In fact, when I started building my twin-turbo V6, the ECM I had (FWD naturally aspirated 148) had no idea it had a turbo. I adjusted the sensors using op-amps so the ecm thought it had less air going into it than it really did. Of course, the sensor maxed out and the OP amp's output then of course maxed out half way of what the ECM thought WOT would be in regards to airflow. So, time to add voltage to the op-amp and sum it together. Wasn't perfect, and didn't play with it that long, but you can lie to your ECM. The issue is you have to do a lot of lying. I found out the hard way you can't just modify one sensor... you need several. A common trick is to install a resistor in series with the water temp sensor, and put a switch in parallel to the resistor. When the resistor is in the circuit, i.e. switch open, the ECM thinks the engine is cold, and richens the mixture -somewhat-. > Another tip was to put a 2nd water temperature sensor in the windshield > fluid container and wire this to a switch in conjunction with the normal > water temperature wiring. Could an op-amp be used instead of this set up? Aaah, I should have read your post entirely. Um, yes :) A temp sensor is a heat sensistive resistor, so you'd need to make a wheatstone bridge. :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:32:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank F Parker Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea > Yes. At least two manufacturers that I know of, currently have retail > products which will "transform" a WB EGO signal (LSM-11 or UEGO) to that of > an OEM style zirconia signal, in conjunction with a user definable > switch-point set-point feature. > > Say you want to force an ECM/PCM into "thinking" it is perturbating around > stoich, while in fact it is perturbating around 11:1 A/F..........no > problem. > Look for URL's associated with Auburn Performance Equipment, and Powertrain > Electronics. > > Walt. > Auburn Performance and Modern Muscle both sell the meter using the LSM-11 sensor. I have one and it works well. It has an analog out but do not believe it has adjustable setpoint. It is not in manual and I know the designer and he never mentioned it. Be interested if anyone knows specific info on the setpoint. The Powertrain Electronics site isan Lambda Pro which appears to be another clone of the NTK. Also has loggerout of 0-5 volts and a 0-1 output to feed to production ecm but again no mention of adustable setpoint. regards, frank parker ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #238 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".