DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, April 22 1999 Volume 04 : Number 239 In this issue: Re: op-amps Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Emulator beta cutoff date. Re: op-amps Re: New? linear O2 sensor Re: Propane conversion kits for generators 749 .bin uploaded Re: op-amps Lucas Injectors AIC controler questions/feelings Re: O2 sensor idea Re: O2 sensor idea AIC controler questions/feelings Re: op-amps Propane blower pics Lucas Injectors Re: Propane conversion kits for generators 749 .bin uploaded Re: New? linear O2 sensor RE: Propane See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:49:18 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: op-amps At 07:58 PM 4/21/99 +0000, you wrote: > >I have been told that the following tip can be used at the track >to realize some real performance gains (2/10 -3/10 quicker and .3 to .4 >mph faster in the 1/4 mile. Disconnect the IAT (intake air temperature) >sensor and plug in a xxk ohm resistor to fool the computer staying in >"warm up" mode. Can an op-amp be used to achieve the same result? > Wouldn't work... The IAT isn't used to determine if the car is warming up or not. It makes minor corrections to timing at extremes in temp. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:48:06 -0700 From: rr Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. FHPSTANG1@xxx.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/20/99 9:37:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Tony.Bryant@xxx.nz writes: > > << What wrong with a propane/isobutane mix? At worst It'll make your > engine run a little rich, it cools as well as R12, and is practically > free. Don't worry about the flammability, all refrigerant oils are > flammable anyway. > >> > > Yeah, they may be "Flammable", but wouldn't the propane mixture be a bit more > like "Explosive"??? I'm just wondering, I have heard "Stories" about these > systems literally Blowing themselves apart. Or.... is that all B.S.??? > > John The problem is that folks either use straight propane, or a mix of propane/butane (instead of isobutane). This causes the PRESSURE to skyrocket, thereby 'blowing-up' the system. A hose or line will burst, therefore 'the system blew-up'. BobR. Kinda like the old TV's, when a tube 'burned-out', the set suddenly had caught fire. - -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:19:00 -0700 From: rr Subject: Re: Emulator beta cutoff date. Dave Williams wrote: > > rr says: > > -> Dave, > > Yes? > Hello ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:51:12 +0000 From: xxalexx@xxx.com Subject: Re: op-amps > I have been told that the following tip can be used at the track > to realize some real performance gains (2/10 -3/10 quicker and .3 to .4 > mph faster in the 1/4 mile. Disconnect the IAT (intake air temperature) > sensor and plug in a xxk ohm resistor to fool the computer staying in > "warm up" mode. Can an op-amp be used to achieve the same result? > > Another tip was to put a 2nd water temperature sensor in the windshield > fluid container and wire this to a switch in conjunction with the normal > water temperature wiring. Could an op-amp be used instead of this set up? > > Thanks for any opinions. Temperature sensors or thermistors, which are resistors that vary with temperature. The circuit is a voltage divider. 5V ---resistor---computer voltmeter-------------thermistor---grd. Many cars room temp. is between 3-4 volts. hot less than 1 volt. All shop manuals will list temperature voltage or at least resistance. Place a 10K pot in series in the thermistor line to lower temp. or to ground to raise temp. Water temp. will have bigger affect. Alex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:28:56 +0000 From: xxalexx@xxx.com Subject: Re: New? linear O2 sensor There is a SAE paper onToyota sensor a few years ago. Illustrated how they modified a lean burn sensor. Did not show 8 wires. The paper number is some where in the early GAR O2 archive I will see if I can find it in my circular file alex. > This was found in the April 99 Import Service ( a auto repair trade mag), > page 10 top right column. > ################################################################# > Lexus RX300 ( car like SUV) and Toyota ES300 3.0 V6 California only cars > > The most significant service-related change is the linear oxygen sensorin the > exhaust manifold, or "air-fuel sensor" as Toyota calles it, a design that's > also been used by Honda. Although it looks like a conventional four wire > sensor, it doesn't toggle within the one volt range. Instead it produces a > voltage that goes up in a straight line as the mixture becomes lean, within > the 2.2-4.2 range. > > ######################################################## > > It goes on to say Toyota techs can't get a useable reading with a volt meter, > the proper way is to read the data from the ODB II scan tool. The photo and > blurb state/show a 4 wire plug. > > Could this be something new? I haven't been following the UEGO/Wide band > thread much. From what I remember, the Honda/Horbia/NTK stuff used a 8 wire > system. > > Harold > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:45:54 -0500 From: Thomas McCabe Subject: Re: Propane conversion kits for generators Barry Tisdale wrote: > > Not really EFI related, but the topic of propane came up. I've got a 5Kw generator (gasoline, Briggs & Stratton). We have prolonged outages here in the boonies; refilling's a problem. I'd like to run it off my 1000gal LP tank; anybody know if conversions for these small engines are available? > > Thanks sincerely - Barry Check out the following link: http://www.americandepot.com/ They sell conversion kits. L8r - -- Thomas McCabe - mccabet@xxx.net '85 D250, 340 on Propane, Auto '89 Lebaron GTC, 2.2L Turbo II, A-555 5 Speed, MPSBEC - 1 of 1033 '90 Dodge Caravan, 2.5L N/A, A-523 5 Speed (Soon to be Turbo) '91 Spirit R/T, 2.2L DOHC 16 Valve T3, A568 5 Speed - 1 of 1208 '96 Dakota SLT Club Cab, Brilliant Blue, 5.2L, Auto, 3.55 SG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:05:06 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: 749 .bin uploaded AMDD.BIN is from a 1988 N body, quad 4 engine, 3 spd auto. Very different .bin from the Sunbird vers. Thanks Mike. Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:31:28 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: op-amps - ----- Original Message ----- From: David A. Cooley To: Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 9:49 PM Subject: Re: op-amps IAT minor Timing, but can do alot to fuel at higher rpm onna AUJP calibration. Bruce > >I have been told that the following tip can be used at the track > >to realize some real performance gains (2/10 -3/10 quicker and .3 to .4 > >mph faster in the 1/4 mile. Disconnect the IAT (intake air temperature) > >sensor and plug in a xxk ohm resistor to fool the computer staying in > >"warm up" mode. Can an op-amp be used to achieve the same result? > > > > Wouldn't work... The IAT isn't used to determine if the car is warming up > or not. It makes minor corrections to timing at extremes in temp. > > > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:40:56 -0500 From: Tom Sharpe Subject: Lucas Injectors Groups, I screwed up again and have the following for sale: 8- 38 lb Lucas high impedance injectors - 15 min use. 1- T-Rex pump kit with brackets, hoses, relay, etc. for Mustang - new in box. Uses banjo output fitting and has the slip on Ford connectors. 8- 26 lb Edelbrock high impedance injectors - 5000 miles use. good to 450 HP, Looks new. 1- EFI remote pump, Edelbrock. Looks like an Accel standard, Bosch or T-Rex with 3/8 straight in/out fittings. Good to 450 HP. Shows very little external surface rust. Make an offer (offlist) PLEASE. Tom Sharpe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:20:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Scott Winnicki Subject: AIC controler questions/feelings Anyone out there ever used one of these (HKS AIC III) or something like them? Are they worth the cost, or is there a way to make something similar or better? I don't need/ want to create a new FI system for the car (MAzda RX7) The stock system is good for now, but I would like to be able to add additional fuel at a set rpm/boost range. IS there a better way to do this then buying a pricey little injector computer. (like make my own?) BTW, increassing fuel pressure, swpaing out stock injectors, ect are not options. thanks, bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 07:17:10 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea >On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Greg Hermann wrote: > >> >That is why I want to get a well calibrated wide band unit and setup a >> >pic or something similar to give the kind of results the stock >> >computer wants, and give mv readings that actually mean something. >> >> As I said earlier, Roger, it MAY (not sure yet) be possible to bias a wide >> band O2 sensor with a constant ion pumping current so that it crosses at >> any A/F ratio you want, in the same way that a standard EGO or HEGO sensor >> does--Changing the bias say for cruise or WOT, and leaving an oem ecm in >> closed loop would allow a programmable selection of A/F ratios for >> different operating conditions. (The bias adjustment is what would fool the >> ecu, the sensor would act like normal EGO sensor at 14.7:1.) The bias and >> its changes would need to be dealt with outside of the oem ecu. >> >> Regards, Greg > >The idea is to bias the wide band O2 normally so that it reads the >range of AFR that you want. Then put a pic in front that inputs the >wideband O2 sensor voltage,/other info and converts that via a table >(non linear table to make the wb act like a normal O2 sensor). > >I guess the other idea is to adjust the bias to read the AFR you want, >and then let the computer run in closed loop mode (even at wot), just >with the modified AFR ratio required for max power. And also with a modified AFR, as desired , at light loads, for best cruise economy?? Greg > > Roger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 07:23:30 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea >Everyone wrote: > >> >> 14.7 AFM > >> >> Guessing is the right word for it > >Assume the following: 2500 RPM, 15 In vacuum (MAP=xxx), closed loop, PW= >6.0ms. > >1. >> If I raise the PW to 7.1, what is the AFR? 12.42 > >2. >> If I lower the PW to 5.0 what is the AFR? 17.64 > >3. >> Can I calc the required PW for WOT from the above numbers? If I want 12.5 >AFR? Why not?? You will be close, but making it run differently MAY affect the VE. Greg > >Just my $0.02 TomS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:20:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Scott Winnicki Subject: AIC controler questions/feelings Anyone out there ever used one of these (HKS AIC III) or something like them? Are they worth the cost, or is there a way to make something similar or better? I don't need/ want to create a new FI system for the car (MAzda RX7) The stock system is good for now, but I would like to be able to add additional fuel at a set rpm/boost range. IS there a better way to do this then buying a pricey little injector computer. (like make my own?) BTW, increassing fuel pressure, swpaing out stock injectors, ect are not options. thanks, bob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:31:28 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: op-amps - ----- Original Message ----- From: David A. Cooley To: Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 9:49 PM Subject: Re: op-amps IAT minor Timing, but can do alot to fuel at higher rpm onna AUJP calibration. Bruce > >I have been told that the following tip can be used at the track > >to realize some real performance gains (2/10 -3/10 quicker and .3 to .4 > >mph faster in the 1/4 mile. Disconnect the IAT (intake air temperature) > >sensor and plug in a xxk ohm resistor to fool the computer staying in > >"warm up" mode. Can an op-amp be used to achieve the same result? > > > > Wouldn't work... The IAT isn't used to determine if the car is warming up > or not. It makes minor corrections to timing at extremes in temp. > > > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:23:17 EDT From: Regnirps@xxx.com Subject: Propane blower pics I put up a quick orphan web page with three pictures at www.regnirps.com/propane/propane.htm BTW, I saw someone mention liquid propane injection. Where can I find out more about this? Charlie Springer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:40:56 -0500 From: Tom Sharpe Subject: Lucas Injectors Groups, I screwed up again and have the following for sale: 8- 38 lb Lucas high impedance injectors - 15 min use. 1- T-Rex pump kit with brackets, hoses, relay, etc. for Mustang - new in box. Uses banjo output fitting and has the slip on Ford connectors. 8- 26 lb Edelbrock high impedance injectors - 5000 miles use. good to 450 HP, Looks new. 1- EFI remote pump, Edelbrock. Looks like an Accel standard, Bosch or T-Rex with 3/8 straight in/out fittings. Good to 450 HP. Shows very little external surface rust. Make an offer (offlist) PLEASE. Tom Sharpe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:45:54 -0500 From: Thomas McCabe Subject: Re: Propane conversion kits for generators Barry Tisdale wrote: > > Not really EFI related, but the topic of propane came up. I've got a 5Kw generator (gasoline, Briggs & Stratton). We have prolonged outages here in the boonies; refilling's a problem. I'd like to run it off my 1000gal LP tank; anybody know if conversions for these small engines are available? > > Thanks sincerely - Barry Check out the following link: http://www.americandepot.com/ They sell conversion kits. L8r - -- Thomas McCabe - mccabet@xxx.net '85 D250, 340 on Propane, Auto '89 Lebaron GTC, 2.2L Turbo II, A-555 5 Speed, MPSBEC - 1 of 1033 '90 Dodge Caravan, 2.5L N/A, A-523 5 Speed (Soon to be Turbo) '91 Spirit R/T, 2.2L DOHC 16 Valve T3, A568 5 Speed - 1 of 1208 '96 Dakota SLT Club Cab, Brilliant Blue, 5.2L, Auto, 3.55 SG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:05:06 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: 749 .bin uploaded AMDD.BIN is from a 1988 N body, quad 4 engine, 3 spd auto. Very different .bin from the Sunbird vers. Thanks Mike. Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:28:56 +0000 From: xxalexx@xxx.com Subject: Re: New? linear O2 sensor There is a SAE paper onToyota sensor a few years ago. Illustrated how they modified a lean burn sensor. Did not show 8 wires. The paper number is some where in the early GAR O2 archive I will see if I can find it in my circular file alex. > This was found in the April 99 Import Service ( a auto repair trade mag), > page 10 top right column. > ################################################################# > Lexus RX300 ( car like SUV) and Toyota ES300 3.0 V6 California only cars > > The most significant service-related change is the linear oxygen sensorin the > exhaust manifold, or "air-fuel sensor" as Toyota calles it, a design that's > also been used by Honda. Although it looks like a conventional four wire > sensor, it doesn't toggle within the one volt range. Instead it produces a > voltage that goes up in a straight line as the mixture becomes lean, within > the 2.2-4.2 range. > > ######################################################## > > It goes on to say Toyota techs can't get a useable reading with a volt meter, > the proper way is to read the data from the ODB II scan tool. The photo and > blurb state/show a 4 wire plug. > > Could this be something new? I haven't been following the UEGO/Wide band > thread much. From what I remember, the Honda/Horbia/NTK stuff used a 8 wire > system. > > Harold > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:14:16 +0200 From: "J. de Haas" Subject: RE: Propane Barry, there is an American company called IMPCO that makes loads of stuff for this sort of things, they make a lot of stuff for forklifts as well. If you can't find them I probably have their adress somewhere. Joeri de Haas On woensdag 21 april 1999 22:22, Barry Tisdale wrote: > Not really EFI related, but the topic of propane came up. I've got a 5Kw > generator (gasoline, Briggs & Stratton). We have prolonged outages here > in the boonies; refilling's a problem. I'd like to run it off my 1000gal > LP tank; anybody know if conversions for these small engines are > available? > > Thanks sincerely - Barry ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #239 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".