DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, April 22 1999 Volume 04 : Number 240 In this issue: Re: Propane conversion kits for generators Re: 749 .bin uploaded Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Twin Turbo Chargers For Sale from 3000GT VR-4 Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Lucas Injector Sales Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: 749 .bin uploaded Re: Propane Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. alternative fuels Re: Injector flow ratings (was: Bosch Flow Ratings) Alternative engines Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. RE: Alternative engines Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Re: alternative fuels Re: Alternative engines Re: Alternative engines Re: Alternative engines Re: Alternative engines Re: alternative fuels RE: Alternative engines Re: Alternative engines Re: O2 sensor idea Re: Alternative engines RE: Alternative engines Re: Alternative engines Re: Alternative engines TEC -1 Re: Lucas Injector Sales RE: Alternative engines See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:30:09 -0400 From: Barry Tisdale Subject: Re: Propane conversion kits for generators At 09:45 PM 4/21/99 -0500, you wrote: *EXactly what I was looking for! Isn't the Internet great? Thanks sincerely - Barry >Check out the following link: http://www.americandepot.com/ > >They sell conversion kits. > >L8r >-- >Thomas McCabe - mccabet@xxx.net >'85 D250, 340 on Propane, Auto >'89 Lebaron GTC, 2.2L Turbo II, A-555 5 Speed, MPSBEC - 1 of 1033 >'90 Dodge Caravan, 2.5L N/A, A-523 5 Speed (Soon to be Turbo) >'91 Spirit R/T, 2.2L DOHC 16 Valve T3, A568 5 Speed - 1 of 1208 >'96 Dakota SLT Club Cab, Brilliant Blue, 5.2L, Auto, 3.55 SG > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:09:41 EDT From: ECMnut@xxx.com Subject: Re: 749 .bin uploaded In a message dated 4/21/99 11:18:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, shannen@xxx.com writes: > AMDD.BIN is from a 1988 N body, quad 4 engine, 3 spd auto. Very > different .bin from the Sunbird vers. Hi Shannen, which books gives you transmission info? Thx Mike ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:19:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Squash Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > I didn't get your analogy here... not ever seeing a > "real" farm tractor, just > those things yuppies mow their lawns with. Oh no! Never seen a real farm tractor? Are they > intercooled? yes Or use rad > fluid in the airstream or something like that? I > passed by the John Deere > website hoping to catch a snippet or two, but I > didn't see anything that helped > me "get" the analogy. > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental > 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy > 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + > turbos > 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) > > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:19:04 -0700 From: "Brent W" Subject: Twin Turbo Chargers For Sale from 3000GT VR-4 Hello, I have for sale the two turbos that came on the factory twin turbo 3.0 liter V-6 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 (the brother to the Dodge Stealth). I only have the turbos themselves without any other items. These are the TDO4 series turbochargers by Mitsubishi. These two turbos were working perfectly when removed prior to converting the car into a race car. The car only had about 15,000 miles on it at the time when the turbos were removed for the conversion, so these turbos are gently used. These turbos have the built-in wastegates which make using them on turbo conversions so much easier and much more compact. These turbos have fittings to attach a lubricating oil inlet and outlet supply line, as well as fittings to attach an engine coolant inlet and outlet supply line, if you want to use coolant to help keep the turbo bearings cooler. These turbos would work really great on any 2.2-3.5 liter twin turbo engine setup whether it be a V-6 or a straight 4 cylinder engine. Or you could use a single turbo for any 1.0-2.0 liter single turbo engine setup, maybe a turbocharged Mazda Miata or Harley Davidson?!!! Please contact me if you have a desire to purchase these turbos from me. I will sell them to the best offer. Thank you, Brent Wiscombe bwiscombe@xxx.com Mesa, AZ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:34:52 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > Oh no! Never seen a real farm tractor? Nope, never had that pleasure. Seen them from a distance (drive by), but never got to sniff the oil or really scrutinize how they go together. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:03:16 EDT From: WLundquist@xxx.com Subject: Lucas Injector Sales Does anyone know of a lucas injector dealer or distributor? I'm looking to purchase injectors but don't know if they were available from any automobile manufacturers as OEM parts. I have a lucas number. TIA Wayne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:04:57 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Next, you'll say ya never been to an aviation museum.. I get the giggles thinking of doing a large areo engine with EFI. Bashful > > Oh no! Never seen a real farm tractor? > Nope, never had that pleasure. Seen them from a distance (drive by), > but never got to sniff the oil or really scrutinize how they go > together. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:04:11 -0500 From: steve ravet Subject: Re: 749 .bin uploaded FYI, I added this file to the ftp index, and changed the name to amdd8389.bin - --steve Shannen Durphey wrote: > > AMDD.BIN is from a 1988 N body, quad 4 engine, 3 spd auto. Very > different .bin from the Sunbird vers. > > Thanks Mike. > Shannen - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:32:44 -0400 From: "Peter D. Hipson" Subject: Re: Propane Check out RV places. RV's sometimes use propane powered generators since they can be diesel, have propane tanks but don't have a 'gas' tank. At 04:22 PM 4/21/99 -0400, you wrote: >Not really EFI related, but the topic of propane came up. I've got a 5Kw generator (gasoline, Briggs & Stratton). We have prolonged outages here in the boonies; refilling's a problem. I'd like to run it off my 1000gal LP tank; anybody know if conversions for these small engines are available? > >Thanks sincerely - Barry > > Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:10:24 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. > Next, you'll say ya never been to an aviation museum.. > I get the giggles thinking of doing a large areo engine with EFI. Um, er, never been to an aviation museum either. However, I did visit Holman Moody's with the guys in Raleigh, and have visited the Intrepid in NYC several times. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:29:54 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Looking at a Dry Sump, and fuel pick ups for something that can go inverted is interesting. Sneezy > > Next, you'll say ya never been to an aviation museum.. > > I get the giggles thinking of doing a large areo engine with EFI. > Um, er, never been to an aviation museum either. However, I did visit > Holman Moody's with the guys in Raleigh, and have visited the Intrepid in > NYC several times. > Frederic Breitwieser ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:35:24 -0700 From: Kurt L Anderson Subject: alternative fuels Hi, I'm fairly new to the list and most of the postings are over my head. With all the talk about propane lately, I figure it's a good time to try posting about alternative fuels. I'm especially interested in hydrogen, but that's probably not practical right now, may never be. I have a '60 Ford Falcon that I'd like to run on a cleaner fuel, with cost as a serious consideration. If I could convert the original i6 engine to run on an alternative fuel I'd love to go that route. I'm looking into swapping in an EFI 2.3L or 5.0L so at least it'll run a lot cleaner on gasoline. I'm considering converting to compressed natural gas or propane. I've started reading "Ford Fuel Injection & Electronic Engine Control" by Charles Probst and it says,"NG[natural gas]-dedicated vehicles need no gasoline fuel injection system, and much simpler control for spark and bypass air-idle"(p62). I'm not sure what this means. Has anyone out there ever converted an older carb. eng. to run on CNG or propane? How about an EFI eng.? Any other thoughts about anything I've posted? Thanks, Kurt **** e-mail address: k.l.anderson@xxx.com **** web site: http://home.att.net/~falconpage ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:43:13 -0700 (MST) From: d houlton x0710 Subject: Re: Injector flow ratings (was: Bosch Flow Ratings) Walter Sherwin wrote: > > >Theres a sheet for each of the sources's data, as well as a sheet that > >gives the source location and a code for them. The main "Composite" > >sheet then is a collection of all these. Theres I think 4 different > > > This is great information Dan! Do you have any data on B 280 412 912, or > possibly 0 280 412 912? Contact me off list if you wish. > > Thanks; > Walt. Nope I don't have it. Like I said, all these came from the sources cited in the sheets. But, if you do (or anyone else for that atter) find some more specs please send them to me or the list and I'll try to keep this file updated. Also, if you can add to the data that's there, that'd be great. I would still like to have the missing pressures and resistance figures for instance. - --Dan houlster@xxx.com http://www.inficad.com/~houlster/amigo.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:50:25 EDT From: ScottyCBoy@xxx.com Subject: Alternative engines In addition to alternative fuels what about laternative power sources. I notices that an allison T63 turbine engine weighs about 150 lbs is about the size of a 50 lb fire extinguisher and puts out a whopping 317 HP!! A GE T-700 which is a little shorter than a ford 5.0 engine cranks out 1,645 shaft horsepower!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These engines will run on just about any liquid that burns, such as diesel, unleaded, kerosene, and even used frying oil!. Has anyone comntemplated the pro's and cons from such a conversion? I know these engines can be found somewhat inexpensively from Government auctions.. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:13:23 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. >Next, you'll say ya never been to an aviation museum.. >I get the giggles thinking of doing a large areo engine with EFI. >Bashful Bashful-- You have just been drafted into the Confederate Air Force. Report to Harlingen immediately! > > >> > Oh no! Never seen a real farm tractor? >> Nope, never had that pleasure. Seen them from a distance (drive by), >> but never got to sniff the oil or really scrutinize how they go >> together. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:42:27 -0400 From: Ken Kelly Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. Everyone should visit Rheinbeck Aerodrome once in there lives. Real airshows put on with pre WW-I airplanes. I saw them fly a 1908 plane with a Radial engine. The crankshaft bolted to the plane. The propellor was attached to the engine crankcase. The whole engine spun around for cooling!! Each cylinder had an exhaust pipe about 10" long with no mufflers. Wildest thing I ever saw or heard. Ken Bruce Plecan wrote: > > Looking at a Dry Sump, and fuel pick ups for something that can go inverted > is interesting. > Sneezy > > > > Next, you'll say ya never been to an aviation museum.. > > > I get the giggles thinking of doing a large areo engine with EFI. > > Um, er, never been to an aviation museum either. However, I did visit > > Holman Moody's with the guys in Raleigh, and have visited the Intrepid in > > NYC several times. > > Frederic Breitwieser ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:40:49 -0300 From: "BUTLER, Tom" Subject: RE: Alternative engines The down side is that turbine engines are hugely fuel inefficient. Tom > -----Original Message----- > From: ScottyCBoy@xxx.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 1999 3:50 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Alternative engines > > In addition to alternative fuels what about laternative power sources. I > notices that an allison T63 turbine engine weighs about 150 lbs is about > the > size of a 50 lb fire extinguisher and puts out a whopping 317 HP!! A GE > T-700 > which is a little shorter than a ford 5.0 engine cranks out 1,645 shaft > horsepower!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These engines will run on just about any liquid > that > burns, such as diesel, unleaded, kerosene, and even used frying oil!. Has > anyone comntemplated the pro's and cons from such a conversion? I know > these > engines can be found somewhat inexpensively from Government auctions.. > > Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:03:11 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Frederic's radiator cooled intercooler. CAF, or Pulling tractors, hmmmm, Course Wright Pat AF museum is just 30 miles away. Indy speed museum, 110 the other direction. Trouble is no one hires 8 guys atta time Bashful > >Next, you'll say ya never been to an aviation museum.. > >I get the giggles thinking of doing a large areo engine with EFI. > >Bashful > Bashful-- > You have just been drafted into the Confederate Air Force. Report to > Harlingen immediately! > >> > Oh no! Never seen a real farm tractor? > >> Nope, never had that pleasure. Seen them from a distance (drive by), > >> but never got to sniff the oil or really scrutinize how they go > >> together. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:10:47 -0400 From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: alternative fuels On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Kurt L Anderson wrote: > Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:35:24 -0700 > From: Kurt L Anderson > To: DIY_EFI@xxx.edu > Subject: alternative fuels > > Hi, > I'm fairly new to the list and most of the postings are over my head. > With all the talk about propane lately, I figure it's a good time to try > posting about alternative fuels. I'm especially interested in hydrogen, > but that's probably not practical right now, may never be. I have a '60 too expensive to product and liquify > Ford Falcon that I'd like to run on a cleaner fuel, with cost as a > serious consideration. If I could convert the original i6 engine to run > on an alternative fuel I'd love to go that route. I'm looking into > swapping in an EFI 2.3L or 5.0L so at least it'll run a lot cleaner on > gasoline. I'm considering converting to compressed natural gas or > propane. I've started reading "Ford Fuel Injection & Electronic Engine I've done propane of newwer cars. if you want to use the original engine you might want to look at hardened valve seats. propane has no lead to lub the valves > Control" by Charles Probst and it says,"NG[natural gas]-dedicated > vehicles need no gasoline fuel injection system, and much simpler control > for spark and bypass air-idle"(p62). cng and propane are high octane fuels, therefore less likely to ping >I'm not sure what this means. Has > anyone out there ever converted an older carb. eng. to run on CNG or > propane? How about an EFI eng.? Any other thoughts about anything I've in Ontario you need to be licenced to install propane fuel systems and the system has to be inspected. I have both the installer and inspectors tickets, but I can't fuel the cars ( yet another ticket). you didn't mention where you are but I've had to rent a truck in Georgia because I couldn't get propane ( i had the filling adaptor but no-one would beleive the truck ran on that stuff you cook with ) CNG is a much more difficult solution, the fuel pressures are much higher ( I forget the # but I remember that is was close to my scuba tank pressure ) the tanks have much smaller capacity harder to fit under the car... the one good thing was a companey made a booster pump that you plumbed into the NG in your house and you could fill your car over night > posted? > Thanks, > Kurt > **** e-mail address: k.l.anderson@xxx.com > **** web site: http://home.att.net/~falconpage > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:20:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Squash Subject: Re: Alternative engines - --- ScottyCBoy@xxx.com wrote: > In addition to alternative fuels what about > laternative power sources. I > notices that an allison T63 turbine engine weighs > about 150 lbs is about the > size of a 50 lb fire extinguisher and puts out a > whopping 317 HP!! A GE T-700 > which is a little shorter than a ford 5.0 engine > cranks out 1,645 shaft > horsepower!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These engines will run on > just about any liquid that > burns, such as diesel, unleaded, kerosene, and even > used frying oil!. Has > anyone comntemplated the pro's and cons from such a > conversion? I know these > engines can be found somewhat inexpensively from > Government auctions.. > > Scott > I'm scared!! AAAHHH!!! get away!!!!!! Didn't mopar play with a turbin car in the 60s? Andy _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:20:48 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Alternative engines The problem is torque, which is what puts a resting object into motion... A turbine's torque is extremely low. Chrysler came out with a turbine powered car in 1962 or 1963... never made it into production and the test drivers said it took forever to get up to highway speed... Once it got up there though, they said it would accelerate pretty well. At 02:50 PM 4/22/99 -0400, you wrote: >In addition to alternative fuels what about laternative power sources. I >notices that an allison T63 turbine engine weighs about 150 lbs is about the >size of a 50 lb fire extinguisher and puts out a whopping 317 HP!! A GE T-700 >which is a little shorter than a ford 5.0 engine cranks out 1,645 shaft >horsepower!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These engines will run on just about any liquid that >burns, such as diesel, unleaded, kerosene, and even used frying oil!. Has >anyone comntemplated the pro's and cons from such a conversion? I know these >engines can be found somewhat inexpensively from Government auctions.. > >Scott =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:55:06 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Alternative engines A neighbor where I grew up had one for a few days (Turbine car). Temps behind the car went WAY UP, when he started the engine. Was enough to shock the kids standing around. Looked cool daddyoo. Bruce > The problem is torque, which is what puts a resting object into motion... A > turbine's torque is extremely low. > Chrysler came out with a turbine powered car in 1962 or 1963... never made > it into production and the test drivers said it took forever to get up to > highway speed... Once it got up there though, they said it would accelerate > pretty well. > > > At 02:50 PM 4/22/99 -0400, you wrote: > >In addition to alternative fuels what about laternative power sources. I > >notices that an allison T63 turbine engine weighs about 150 lbs is about the > >size of a 50 lb fire extinguisher and puts out a whopping 317 HP!! A GE T-700 > >which is a little shorter than a ford 5.0 engine cranks out 1,645 shaft > >horsepower!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These engines will run on just about any liquid that > >burns, such as diesel, unleaded, kerosene, and even used frying oil!. Has > >anyone comntemplated the pro's and cons from such a conversion? I know these > >engines can be found somewhat inexpensively from Government auctions.. > > > >Scott > > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:22:51 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Alternative engines Their efficiency is fine at full throttle. The problem is at idle and part throttle. On the plus side is no radiator but what an exhaust it needs! If gas turbines were a good way to go for cars, we would have them. Chrysler added large regenerators back in the 60's and still had lousy economy. I don't know much about the aircraft engines you speak of but how much is "somewhat inexpensive"? $2,000? They must be way more than that. A few years ago I went to an indoor monster truck meet. One of the sideshows was a monster truck with a helicopter turbine engine. But the turbine wasn't even hooked up to the drive train of the truck, it just sat in the back and spewed noise and flames all over the place. When it was done, the truck started up its big block and drove off. Gary Derian > The down side is that turbine engines are hugely fuel inefficient. > Tom > > > In addition to alternative fuels what about laternative power sources. I > > notices that an allison T63 turbine engine weighs about 150 lbs is about > > the > > size of a 50 lb fire extinguisher and puts out a whopping 317 HP!! A GE > > T-700 > > which is a little shorter than a ford 5.0 engine cranks out 1,645 shaft > > horsepower!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These engines will run on just about any liquid > > that > > burns, such as diesel, unleaded, kerosene, and even used frying oil!. Has > > anyone comntemplated the pro's and cons from such a conversion? I know > > these > > engines can be found somewhat inexpensively from Government auctions.. > > > > Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:34:56 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: alternative fuels If there is a propane supplier handy, propane is a great fuel. A conversion using a propane carb is super easy. Hydrogen is OK but it burns so fast the engine will run rough. Lots of EGR (50%) will help. Also, you can't put much hydrogen in a tank. It can be adsorbed onto metal hydride but this stuff is not readily available. I would stick to gasoline if cost a concern. Just keep your engine well tuned. Lean out the carb some and add a cat to the exhaust. The EFI 5.0 with old Mustang mounts, etc would make a great sleeper but you should change the entire drivetrain and front suspension. Gary Derian > Hi, > I'm fairly new to the list and most of the postings are over my head. > With all the talk about propane lately, I figure it's a good time to try > posting about alternative fuels. I'm especially interested in hydrogen, > but that's probably not practical right now, may never be. I have a '60 > Ford Falcon that I'd like to run on a cleaner fuel, with cost as a > serious consideration. If I could convert the original i6 engine to run > on an alternative fuel I'd love to go that route. I'm looking into > swapping in an EFI 2.3L or 5.0L so at least it'll run a lot cleaner on > gasoline. I'm considering converting to compressed natural gas or > propane. I've started reading "Ford Fuel Injection & Electronic Engine > Control" by Charles Probst and it says,"NG[natural gas]-dedicated > vehicles need no gasoline fuel injection system, and much simpler control > for spark and bypass air-idle"(p62). I'm not sure what this means. Has > anyone out there ever converted an older carb. eng. to run on CNG or > propane? How about an EFI eng.? Any other thoughts about anything I've > posted? > Thanks, > Kurt > **** e-mail address: k.l.anderson@xxx.com > **** web site: http://home.att.net/~falconpage > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:30:58 -0500 From: "Kurek, Larry" Subject: RE: Alternative engines > The problem is torque, which is what puts a resting object > into motion... A > turbine's torque is extremely low. But...isn't HP a function of torque and RPM? Ahhh...answered my own question on that one! High rpm * little torque=impressive HP but no twist :) > Chrysler came out with a turbine powered car in 1962 or > 1963... never made > it into production and the test drivers said it took forever > to get up to > highway speed... Once it got up there though, they said it > would accelerate > pretty well. Huh? How does it accelerate if it has no torque? Maybe they just didn't gear it correctly. Maybe a CVT type of transmission is needed to keep the rpm up and multiply the torque accordingly. With electronic controls, it would be an interesting project...run the turbine at a constant speed, and do all of the throttle control/etc off the trans...hmmm.. TTYL! Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:06:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Squash Subject: Re: Alternative engines There is a local tractor puller around here that always has an old "huey" engine on his rig. It is hooked up to the tranny and runs better than all the others! It's quite a sight to see this thing move around and make zero sound, but when it pulls up to the sled and puts on the deisel (oh yeah-it runs genero diesel fuel), you better move away from the end of the track! It always screams to a full pull. Andy - --- Gary Derian wrote: > Their efficiency is fine at full throttle. The > problem is at idle and part > throttle. On the plus side is no radiator but what > an exhaust it needs! If > gas turbines were a good way to go for cars, we > would have them. Chrysler > added large regenerators back in the 60's and still > had lousy economy. > > I don't know much about the aircraft engines you > speak of but how much is > "somewhat inexpensive"? $2,000? They must be way > more than that. > > A few years ago I went to an indoor monster truck > meet. One of the > sideshows was a monster truck with a helicopter > turbine engine. But the > turbine wasn't even hooked up to the drive train of > the truck, it just sat > in the back and spewed noise and flames all over the > place. When it was > done, the truck started up its big block and drove > off. > > Gary Derian > > > > The down side is that turbine engines are hugely > fuel inefficient. > > Tom > > > > > In addition to alternative fuels what about > laternative power sources. I > > > notices that an allison T63 turbine engine > weighs about 150 lbs is about > > > the > > > size of a 50 lb fire extinguisher and puts out a > whopping 317 HP!! A GE > > > T-700 > > > which is a little shorter than a ford 5.0 engine > cranks out 1,645 shaft > > > horsepower!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These engines will run > on just about any liquid > > > that > > > burns, such as diesel, unleaded, kerosene, and > even used frying oil!. > Has > > > anyone comntemplated the pro's and cons from > such a conversion? I know > > > these > > > engines can be found somewhat inexpensively from > Government auctions.. > > > > > > Scott > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:15:27 -0700 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: O2 sensor idea >Auburn Performance and Modern Muscle both sell the meter using the LSM-11 >sensor. I have one and it works well. It has an analog out but do not >believe it has adjustable setpoint. It is not in manual and I know >the designer and he never mentioned it. Be interested if anyone knows >specific info on the setpoint. > >The Powertrain Electronics site is an Lambda Pro which appears to be >another clone of the NTK. Also has loggerout of 0-5 volts and a 0-1 >output to feed to production ecm but again no mention of adustable >setpoint. > >regards, > >frank parker > Frank, in "normal" retail form, both the A.P.E. (LSM-11 based unit), and the P.E. (NTK based unit), are not "normally" adjustable in this fashion, off-the-shelf. However, upon special request, both vendors have indicated directly to me that user adjustable setpoints are possible through the software. I have queried them both, only a month or two ago, during my personal search for such a tool. You are correct, neither A.P.E. nor P.E. manufacture these products. Instead, they sell and support them. Give them both a call (or E-Mail), if this is the type of instrument you are after. Walt. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:17:05 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Alternative engines >The problem is torque, which is what puts a resting object into motion... A >turbine's torque is extremely low. >Chrysler came out with a turbine powered car in 1962 or 1963... never made >it into production and the test drivers said it took forever to get up to >highway speed... Once it got up there though, they said it would accelerate >pretty well. This was more a matter of huge turbo lag than lack of power--the Howmet , turbine powered endurance race car of the late sixties used a manually operated waste gate on a turbine, and had VERY impressive throttle (actually waste gate) response. Not very fuel efficient, tho--even less so than a conventional turbine at part load. Part load efficiency is the real downfall of turbine engines. Greg > > >At 02:50 PM 4/22/99 -0400, you wrote: >>In addition to alternative fuels what about laternative power sources. I >>notices that an allison T63 turbine engine weighs about 150 lbs is about the >>size of a 50 lb fire extinguisher and puts out a whopping 317 HP!! A GE T-700 >>which is a little shorter than a ford 5.0 engine cranks out 1,645 shaft >>horsepower!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These engines will run on just about any liquid that >>burns, such as diesel, unleaded, kerosene, and even used frying oil!. Has >>anyone comntemplated the pro's and cons from such a conversion? I know these >>engines can be found somewhat inexpensively from Government auctions.. >> >>Scott > >=========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! >=========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:21:27 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: RE: Alternative engines At 04:30 PM 4/22/99 -0500, you wrote: > >But...isn't HP a function of torque and RPM? Ahhh...answered my own question >on that one! High rpm * little torque=impressive HP but no twist :) Yep! > > >Huh? How does it accelerate if it has no torque? Maybe they just didn't gear >it correctly. Maybe a CVT type of transmission is needed to keep the rpm up >and multiply the torque accordingly. With electronic controls, it would be >an interesting project...run the turbine at a constant speed, and do all of >the throttle control/etc off the trans...hmmm.. Once the car was at highway speeds the turbine was up high enough in the rpm's that it had decent torque for acceleration... =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:32:34 -0400 (EDT) From: William T Wilson Subject: Re: Alternative engines On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 ScottyCBoy@xxx.com wrote: > In addition to alternative fuels what about laternative power sources. > I notices that an allison T63 turbine engine weighs about 150 lbs is > about the size of a 50 lb fire extinguisher and puts out a whopping > 317 HP!! A GE T-700 Exhaust, of course, is the big problem here. Gas turbine engines shoot flames out the back, and are basically used only in helicopters and airplanes where it doesn't really matter how much exhaust you put out, nor how hot it gets. You couldn't muffle this engine, the exhaust pressure would probably blow the muffler right off the tailpipe. Don't even heavy land vehicles like tanks and self-propelled artillery usually have diesel engines? They're also very fuel-inefficient. The most practical "alternative" engine would be a Wankel-type, or an electric powered. These are pretty mundane for alternative engines. Steam turbines are not too much more of a big deal; the trouble of course is finding the engine itself, and long warm-up times. Engine won't go until the water starts to boil. Very efficient and low emissions (less than a propane powered internal-combustion) and wide RPM range, a bit heavy but not too much. Flywheels I would put in the same practicality category as a gas turbine, but in their case the technology just isn't there. There's a reason that 99% of the engines sold in the US today are piston-type, gasoline engines; it's a pretty good design :} ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 01:48:39 +0200 From: "Espen Hilde" Subject: Re: Alternative engines Some boats have turbine engines , they can get away with it because they need a lot of hp to go and the weight is wery important for speed.I have seen them coupled to arnesen surface drives. Using electric outboards for reverse.They clamed it could run on Jack Daniels.... 32 fot skater catamaran with 1500hp General electric turbine....the way to go! Espen Hilde http://www.marineturbine.com/turnkey.htm - ---------- > From: Kurek, Larry > To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' > Subject: RE: Alternative engines > Date: 22. april 1999 23:30 > > > > The problem is torque, which is what puts a resting object > > into motion... A > > turbine's torque is extremely low. > > But...isn't HP a function of torque and RPM? Ahhh...answered my own question > on that one! High rpm * little torque=impressive HP but no twist :) > > > Chrysler came out with a turbine powered car in 1962 or > > 1963... never made > > it into production and the test drivers said it took forever > > to get up to > > highway speed... Once it got up there though, they said it > > would accelerate > > pretty well. > > Huh? How does it accelerate if it has no torque? Maybe they just didn't gear > it correctly. Maybe a CVT type of transmission is needed to keep the rpm up > and multiply the torque accordingly. With electronic controls, it would be > an interesting project...run the turbine at a constant speed, and do all of > the throttle control/etc off the trans...hmmm.. > > TTYL! > > Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 02:13:23 +0200 From: "Espen Hilde" Subject: TEC -1 Tried the new software and chip for the Electromotive tec-1(Total engine confusion?) unit. old software I used was called Super ,I now have the PAF BLEND. Wow! I got a new engine in the Maserati Biturbo! Seems like the PW resolution is better.....same ecu...The engine is running much more stable at low output, the occilating tendencies in idle is gone. And the turbo pulsating over the pump limit at 5500rpm is GONE!???? I thought I had to change the turboes to cure that one......I used exactly the same calibration as in the super software.No blend of trottle possition at that rpm.... Any idees how this can happen? One glich... I miss a 5 times ampifier inside the tec unit for the right 0-5 volt o2 signal. I just have 0 to 1 volt.... something to cure with a op amp? or a uego device with 0to 5 volts output for real automatic fuel calibration? Espen Hilde ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:30:28 -0400 From: David Piper Subject: Re: Lucas Injector Sales Try Ronald Palm at Palm Auto Sales in Greenville, SC TurboDave At 12:03 PM 4/22/99 EDT, you wrote: >Does anyone know of a lucas injector dealer or distributor? I'm looking to >purchase injectors but don't know if they were available from any automobile >manufacturers as OEM parts. I have a lucas number. >TIA Wayne > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:43:43 -0400 (EDT) From: William T Wilson Subject: RE: Alternative engines On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Kurek, Larry wrote: > Huh? How does it accelerate if it has no torque? Maybe they just > didn't gear it correctly. Maybe a CVT type of transmission is needed > to keep the rpm up and multiply the torque accordingly. With > electronic controls, it would be Maybe. Don't most turbines spin something like 30,000 RPM? It's a lot. And they don't really produce any torque at all until they get up to a substantial portion of that. You'd need a 20:1 final drive ratio to get "normal" performance, so that won't do. What I would recommend is a reduction before you feed into the transmission. Before the clutch, even. I wouldn't trust most transmissions to take that much RPM on the input. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #240 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".