DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, April 28 1999 Volume 04 : Number 246 In this issue: Re: Fuel injection plugs Re: Fuel injection plugs Re: Fuel injection plugs Re: Briggs and Stratton DIS, and 68HC12 Re: Fuel injection plugs Cold Start Injector Re: Fuel injection plugs Re: Fuel injection plugs Re: DIS, and 68HC12 RE: DIS, and 68HC12 RE: DIS, and 68HC12 Re: Fuel injection plugs Re: Fuel injection plugs Re: Fuel injection plugs 7747 ecu revision Re: Fuel injection plugs Help - Pickup Circuit Re: Fuel injection plugs Re: Fuel injection plugs Re: Fuel injection plugs (propan) Weber Marelli WD48.08 info... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:26:54 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs >I have asked this before, but mixed in with another topic. > >Has anyone heard of or seen a combination injector/spark plug for conversion >to direct fuel injection without changing heads? No. > >If not, would you like one? Certainly of interest! Greg> >Charlie Springer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:35:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs On Tue, 27 Apr 1999 Regnirps@xxx.com wrote: > I have asked this before, but mixed in with another topic. > > Has anyone heard of or seen a combination injector/spark plug for conversion > to direct fuel injection without changing heads? > > If not, would you like one? > There is at least one fairly late patent dealing with this that I have seen lately... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:25:26 -0400 From: Raymond C Drouillard Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs On Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:57:00 EDT JRECPA@xxx.com writes: >In a message dated 4/26/99 10:35:41 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >Regnirps@xxx.com writes: > ><< Has anyone heard of or seen a combination injector/spark plug for >conversion > to direct fuel injection without changing heads? > > If not, would you like one? > > Charlie Springer >> > >It has been tried. Most of the problems are electrical interference between >the injector coil and spark energy. Plus the fact that the fuel concentration >next to the plug may be too rich to fire the plug without fouling over >time. > >James > It looks like an engineering challenge to me. Perhaps a puff of air after the fuel has been injected. Actually, I would like a set that will inject a gas. That would remove the power disadvantage of propane and methane. Ray Drouillard ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 05:17:47 -0700 From: "Wallace A. Gustafson" Subject: Re: Briggs and Stratton Send me all the numbers & specification for the engine. Also include a description of the application. If you have access to a scanner -- scan a carburetor gasket, so i can get the appropriate mouting figured out. Please include referencing dimensions. I'll see what I can do. Wallace "Cobra" Gustafson - -----Original Message----- From: Christopher M Ortega To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, April 11, 1999 2:23 PM Subject: Briggs and Stratton > >To whom it may concern, > >I am looking to replace a regular carbueration system on a briggs and >stratton 5 HP engine with a single port fuel injection system. I was >wondering if anybody had any suggestions for feedback control, LED display >of RPM's, or the amplifier needed from the spark. Please respond ASAP!! > >Christopher Ortega > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:35:35 -0400 From: Jurgen Hartwig Subject: DIS, and 68HC12 Hi all, this is my first post to this mailing list. I've been hiding for some time enjoying the great wealth of information spread forth by the likes of Greg Hermann and others. I am working on a distributorless ignition system, and while it is not purely FI related, I am hoping that the information I pick up from this project will help me immensely with later FI projects. Basically, my friend and I are designing a system around the Motorola 68HC12 series microcontroller. It is similar to the system that Tim Drury has outlined on his website. Now, I'd like to interface with some of you that have had experience with the 68HC12 or 68HC11. We need to find some development boards or similar, and I have found two at around $100. Is it easy to build my own board? The HC12 has 110+ pins, so it sounds like it would be tough. We are planning on using the Motorola chip to permit fully adjustable timing curves, and thanks to the archives, I've found a large amount of data pertaining to adjusting the curves. The system will be waste spark, with junkyard variety coil packs and wires. Does anyone have a source or list of vehicles that came with coil packs? I am heading down to a U-Pull-It yard here in Atlanta this Friday, and I'd like to know what to keep my eyes open for. Any ideas on cost for wires and coil packs (need two minimum for first project)? Also, the first car we are trying this system on will be a '92 Ford Probe. Does anyone know where we can get timing curves for the distributor? I suppose I should call the dealer, but I wonder if there is anything online or printed that I could consult. Lastly, the final version of the distributorless ignition system will be crank fired, but for simplicity I am going to use the distributor to trigger the MCU. I was thinking of grabbing an old distributor from a junked Ford Probe and super gluing the centrifugal advance, and disconnecting the vacuum advance. Then we can use the existing hall effect sensor as the trigger, but I don't know if the four lobes will provide enough timing resolution. Any thoughts or ideas? We are using a GM MAP sensor as load input for the MCU. The MCU will calculate timing vs. RPM vs. load. The timing curve will be adjustable from a laptop computer through the serial interface. Anything I'm missing here? I apologize for the great length, but I value your opinions greatly and would appreciate any guidance on our first project. Take care Jay - -- When you were born you cried And the world rejoiced. Live your life so in death you rejoice And the world cries. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:04:24 EDT From: JRECPA@xxx.com Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs In a message dated 4/27/99 7:59:53 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cosmic.ray@xxx.com writes: << On Tue, 27 Apr 1999 01:57:00 EDT JRECPA@xxx.com writes: >In a message dated 4/26/99 10:35:41 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >Regnirps@xxx.com writes: > ><< Has anyone heard of or seen a combination injector/spark plug for >conversion > to direct fuel injection without changing heads? > > If not, would you like one? > > Charlie Springer >> > >It has been tried. Most of the problems are electrical interference between >the injector coil and spark energy. Plus the fact that the fuel concentration >next to the plug may be too rich to fire the plug without fouling over >time. > >James > It looks like an engineering challenge to me. Perhaps a puff of air after the fuel has been injected. Actually, I would like a set that will inject a gas. That would remove the power disadvantage of propane and methane. Ray Drouillard >> If you would like to talk to some people that have tried this before, talk to the people at The American Hydrogen Association. James ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:15:49 -0500 From: Matt S Bower Subject: Cold Start Injector Does anyone happen to know what the flow ratings are on the cold start injector on an older TPI or similar. Thanks, Matt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:34:50 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs What is the point of direct injection? All it does is make the operating conditions on the injector more severe. Direct injection requires injecting only during the intake stroke. This provides some time for mixing during compression. That would be a lot of gas injected in a very short time. Less than 180 degrees of crank, probably less than 100 deg. The gaseous fuel would take up volume the same as if it were carbureted. If you mean to inject at TDC, you now have a diesel. Gaseous fuels have way too much octane rating to be useful in a diesel. I guess that's why you need the spark plug, sort of like the old Texaco and Ford stratified charge engines from the 60's. But if you're doing that, you need to change the piston shape and move the spark plug into the rich zone. Gary Derian > > > ><< Has anyone heard of or seen a combination injector/spark plug for > >conversion > > to direct fuel injection without changing heads? > > > > If not, would you like one? > > > > Charlie Springer >> > > > >It has been tried. Most of the problems are electrical interference > between > >the injector coil and spark energy. Plus the fact that the fuel > concentration > >next to the plug may be too rich to fire the plug without fouling over > >time. > > > >James > > > > It looks like an engineering challenge to me. Perhaps a puff of air > after the fuel has been injected. > > Actually, I would like a set that will inject a gas. That would remove > the power disadvantage of propane and methane. > > Ray Drouillard > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:16:02 -0400 From: James Ballenger Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs Gary Derian wrote: > What is the point of direct injection? Superb fuel atomization. > All it does is make the operating conditions on the injector more severe. > Direct injection requires injecting only during the intake stroke. Not if you inject the fuel into another high pressure air injector. The orbital version of direct injection works very very well imo. The mixture that is fired out of the air injector is supposedly below 10 microns 80% of the time. It makes for a super quick, clean burn. They quote being able to run a 70:1 mixture at light load, dunno about that one though, and huge peformance, emmissions, and fuel economy improvements. They are making automotive applications now too, sounds very good to me. http://www.orbeng.com.au/index.htm Though I'm not sure how to get my hands on a system like this one. James Ballenger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:28:00 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: DIS, and 68HC12 >Hi all, this is my first post to this mailing list. I've been hiding >for some time enjoying the great wealth of information spread forth by >the likes of Greg Hermann and others. Hold on there--It wuz Doc, Sneezy, Grumpy, & (most of all) Dopey who done taught me an' Bruce most all o' what we know!!! Greg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 00:09:15 +0200 From: Niinikoski Juha Subject: RE: DIS, and 68HC12 Big snip I have used Axiom manufacturing boards in my projects. http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Factory/6113/ http://www.axman.com/ Juha > -----Original Message----- > From: Jurgen Hartwig [SMTP:gt0003a@xxx.edu] > Sent: 27. huhtikuuta 1999 21:36 > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: DIS, and 68HC12 > Basically, my friend and I are designing a system around the Motorola > 68HC12 series microcontroller. It is similar to the system that Tim > Drury has outlined on his website. Now, I'd like to interface with some > of you that have had experience with the 68HC12 or 68HC11. We need to > find some development boards or similar, and I have found two at around > $100. Is it easy to build my own board? The HC12 has 110+ pins, so it > sounds like it would be tough. > Jay > -- > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:40:55 -0500 From: Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com Subject: RE: DIS, and 68HC12 If you use a older Ford distributor, replace the module with a late model 6 pin module. The 6 pin module has a PIP (profile ignition pick up) output that can be used for injector and ignition reference pulses. The SPOUT input to the module controls the engine timing. If you place a metal flag at around 60 degrees advanced on the harmonic balancer that interrupts an optocoupler, you can use this pulse and the PIP pulse to control and monitor ignition advance. Base timing by the ECU is usually 26.5 degrees at idle (4cly) 45 degrees is possible at light load, use the MAP output as a load monitor. I have been working on a stand alone circuit(non micro)to control IAC,timing and injectors to run an engine on a test stand. I will post any new data as I find it. Don > -----Original Message----- > From: Jurgen Hartwig [SMTP:gt0003a@xxx.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 1:36 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: DIS, and 68HC12 > > Hi all, this is my first post to this mailing list. I've been hiding > for some time enjoying the great wealth of information spread forth by > the likes of Greg Hermann and others. > > > I am working on a distributorless ignition system, and while it is not > purely FI related, I am hoping that the information I pick up from this > project will help me immensely with later FI projects. > > Basically, my friend and I are designing a system around the Motorola > 68HC12 series microcontroller. It is similar to the system that Tim > Drury has outlined on his website. Now, I'd like to interface with some > of you that have had experience with the 68HC12 or 68HC11. We need to > find some development boards or similar, and I have found two at around > $100. Is it easy to build my own board? The HC12 has 110+ pins, so it > sounds like it would be tough. > > We are planning on using the Motorola chip to permit fully adjustable > timing curves, and thanks to the archives, I've found a large amount of > data pertaining to adjusting the curves. The system will be waste > spark, with junkyard variety coil packs and wires. Does anyone have a > source or list of vehicles that came with coil packs? I am heading down > to a U-Pull-It yard here in Atlanta this Friday, and I'd like to know > what to keep my eyes open for. Any ideas on cost for wires and coil > packs (need two minimum for first project)? > > Also, the first car we are trying this system on will be a '92 Ford > Probe. Does anyone know where we can get timing curves for the > distributor? I suppose I should call the dealer, but I wonder if there > is anything online or printed that I could consult. > > Lastly, the final version of the distributorless ignition system will be > crank fired, but for simplicity I am going to use the distributor to > trigger the MCU. I was thinking of grabbing an old distributor from a > junked Ford Probe and super gluing the centrifugal advance, and > disconnecting the vacuum advance. Then we can use the existing hall > effect sensor as the trigger, but I don't know if the four lobes will > provide enough timing resolution. Any thoughts or ideas? > > We are using a GM MAP sensor as load input for the MCU. The MCU will > calculate timing vs. RPM vs. load. The timing curve will be adjustable > from a laptop computer through the serial interface. Anything I'm > missing here? > > I apologize for the great length, but I value your opinions greatly and > would appreciate any guidance on our first project. > > > Take care > Jay > -- > When you were born you cried > And the world rejoiced. > Live your life so in death you rejoice > And the world cries. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:10:15 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs >What is the point of direct injection? All it does is make the operating >conditions on the injector more severe. Direct injection requires injecting >only during the intake stroke. Orbital injects during the compression stroke, during the lower part of it, over only about 30 to 50 crank degrees. They use air to inject and atomize the fuel from a very small pre chamber, which is, in turn, fed by a conventional fuel injector. This provides some time for mixing during >compression. The finer atomization (under 10 micron average droplet size) given by the air allows good dispension of the fuel during the remainder of the compression stroke. Timing of injection AFTER closing of the intake valve would certainly avoid having the fuel displace any oxygen! That would be a lot of gas injected in a very short time. >Less than 180 degrees of crank, probably less than 100 deg. As stated above, 50 degrees or less. The gaseous >fuel would take up volume the same as if it were carbureted. Not if injected after the intake valve is closed, as is the case with Orbital style injection timing. It might be possible to inject liquid --not gaseous--propane directly , and dispense with the air boost, if one had injectors that would stand high enough pressure AND if you could keep the liquid propane below its critical temperature (206 degrees F.). This would take rather trick injectors, and quite likely, refrigeration of the liquid fuel. With reliably cold liquid fuel, the pressures would be within the capabilities of current injectors. BUT--it COULD work, and work well! Orbital also plays some games with their injection timing (as well as aiming) at light loads so to stratify the charge and gain some part throttle efficiency. Regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:01:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs - -> What is the point of direct injection? 1) resistance to detonation (various reasons) 2) better control of fuel/air stratification 3) timing injection event to allow for high overlap camshafts while remaining on closed loop I have a mildly interesting project in the works - a 1952 Ford flathead V8, 239 cubic inches, with an Eaton positive-displacement supercharger and a Stanadyne mechanical direct-injection system adapted from a GM Diesel V8. The flathead's cylinder heads make installation of the largish injector nozzles easy. This particular engine is going into a street rod; the customer wanted something 'different'. It probably won't be done until early next year, though, as several other projects are in the queue ahead of it. I do have all the necessary parts on hand, though. ==dave.williams@xxx.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 19:50:46 -0700 From: "Howard Wilkinson" Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs James: Really they don't operate at a 70x mixture...... the real purpose of direct injection on 4 cycle engines is to achieve true charge stratification so that the total mixture ratio may well be 70x, but the mixture which is near the plug is at the proper 14x ratio. Direct injection actually results in poorer atomizaton, and direct injection engines (4 cycle) use dual mode operation with port injection at higher power settings, and direct injection at low power settings. The obvious advantage of the extreme lean total mixtures at lower power settings is that it allows a full charge or nearly full charge of air which means higher effective compression ratio, and more material in the cylinder to create pressure from the combustion process. Direct injection tends to be detrimental to max power output. Orbital if I'm not mistaken is working primarily with 2 cycle engines, the idea being that no fuel is blown out the port which increases the efficiency to about the typical .5 lb / hp/hr of a 4 cycle. The Mercury Optimax has demonstrated this to work very well. Direct injection is the first real significant improvement in gas engines since very nearly the beginning. Other "improvements" such as overhead valves, and overhead cam, superchargers, turbos, EFI, etc... really didn't offer much other than slightly greater power to weight ratio. Overhead valve engines for example of the same compression ratios didn't offer much greater efficiency or dependability, Overhead cam only reduced the parts count slightly and allowed higher RPM, boosted induction offered no benefit except a slightly better power to weight ratio, EFI offers a slightly improved fuel management.... In real life I don't see much improvement between a properly set up carb and an EFI system on comparable vehicles owned by people I know. The main advantage of EFI is emissions control and a system where the user can't easily tinker with it. Direct injection on the other hand offers an increase in efficiency in vehicles of as much as 30% if the numbers floating about are to be believed. I'd love to have something like this to play with someday.... H.W. - -----Original Message----- From: James Ballenger To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Date: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 3:37 PM Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs > > >Gary Derian wrote: > >> What is the point of direct injection? > >Superb fuel atomization. > >> All it does is make the operating conditions on the injector more severe. >> Direct injection requires injecting only during the intake stroke. > > Not if you inject the fuel into another high pressure air injector. The >orbital version of direct injection works very very well imo. The mixture that >is fired out of the air injector is supposedly below 10 microns 80% of the >time. It makes for a super quick, clean burn. They quote being able to run a >70:1 mixture at light load, dunno about that one though, and huge peformance, >emmissions, and fuel economy improvements. They are making automotive >applications now too, sounds very good to me. >http://www.orbeng.com.au/index.htm >Though I'm not sure how to get my hands on a system like this one. > > James Ballenger > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:36:58 -0600 From: cwagner@xxx.net Subject: 7747 ecu revision I got ahold of a list of all the tables and switches for the 7747 computer and have revised the 1227747.ecu file provided with the new promedit. I have changed some tables around so everything is where it is supposed to be. I also added quite a few things along with removing some items that would never be used. It will be located in the ftp area incoming at the efi site. It is labelled 7747ecu if any one wants to try it. If there are any questions or comments, email me at cwagner@xxx. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:14:15 +0300 From: "Tom Bennett" Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs >It might be possible to inject liquid --not gaseous--propane directly , and >dispense with the air boost, if one had injectors that would stand high >enough pressure AND if you could keep the liquid propane below its critical >temperature (206 degrees F.). >This would take rather trick injectors, and quite likely, refrigeration of >the liquid fuel. With reliably cold liquid fuel, the pressures would be >within the capabilities of current injectors. > >BUT--it COULD work, and work well! > >Orbital also plays some games with their injection timing (as well as >aiming) at light loads so to stratify the charge and gain some part >throttle efficiency. > >Regards, Greg Hi Greg, To keep the propane cool enough perhaps a system, as used by Jaguar might work. They use a cooler tube hooked up to the AC system to keep the fuel cool. regards Tom ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:02:28 +0200 From: miketo@xxx.com Subject: Help - Pickup Circuit Hi, Please help, I have seen some of the discussions on the subject of Inductive pickups for spark. I have a system where the signal from a inductive pickup is fed into the mic input of a pc, to count the sparks. The problem is that the software gets confused, for every spark puls consists of a number of pulses that is picked up. Can anybody please supply me with a circuit to convert the input to one single spike per spark ?? Thanks Michael. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 03:10:05 EDT From: Regnirps@xxx.com Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs >It might be possible to inject liquid --not gaseous--propane directly , and >dispense with the air boost, if one had injectors that would stand high >enough pressure AND if you could keep the liquid propane below its critical >temperature (206 degrees F.). >This would take rather trick injectors, and quite likely, refrigeration of >the liquid fuel. With reliably cold liquid fuel, the pressures would be >within the capabilities of current injectors. > >BUT--it COULD work, and work well! > >Orbital also plays some games with their injection timing (as well as >aiming) at light loads so to stratify the charge and gain some part >throttle efficiency. > >Regards, Greg This is what I have in mind. Liquid propane injection with a dual injector/spark device. Charlie Springer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:35:04 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs >>It might be possible to inject liquid --not gaseous--propane directly , and >>dispense with the air boost, if one had injectors that would stand high >>enough pressure AND if you could keep the liquid propane below its critical >>temperature (206 degrees F.). >>This would take rather trick injectors, and quite likely, refrigeration of >>the liquid fuel. With reliably cold liquid fuel, the pressures would be >>within the capabilities of current injectors. >> >>BUT--it COULD work, and work well! >> >>Orbital also plays some games with their injection timing (as well as >>aiming) at light loads so to stratify the charge and gain some part >>throttle efficiency. >> >>Regards, Greg > > >Hi Greg, >To keep the propane cool enough perhaps a system, as used by Jaguar might >work. >They use a cooler tube hooked up to the AC system to keep the fuel cool. >regards >Tom Yep--and run a small coil of tubing warmed by engine coolant around/under the fuel bottle/tank to warm it, so that there would be more than enough gas pressure above the liquid in the bottle to generate all the liquid line pressure you could ever want, with no need for a pump. Could use a small electric bottle heater for starting. Greg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 09:43:49 +0200 From: "Espen Hilde" Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs (propan) > > Hi Greg, > To keep the propane cool enough perhaps a system, as used by Jaguar might > work. > They use a cooler tube hooked up to the AC system to keep the fuel cool. > regards > Tom Hi What I have been thinking of is: Making a conventional LPG evaporator system.Insulate the LPG tank.Insulate the fuel system(efi).Fit a in tank LPG pump,control the pump so it would not put to much energy into the LPG. (non return system?)When you have been driving for a while and the LPG has taken a lot of energy out of the LPG fuel in tank to evaporate and the pressure has come down to zero pressure, then switch automatic to lpg into the cars efi system and run liquid injection.A cooler tube like you have suggested would lower the time to cool the LPG, and with small LPG consumption the evaporation inside the tank would be little . Would it work? Espen Hilde ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:40:07 +0200 (MET DST) From: "Daniel R. Henriksson" Subject: Weber Marelli WD48.08 info... Hi Is there anyone out there who has any in-depth info on the internals of the Weber Marelli WD48.08 injection system? It's fitted in the -92 Ford Sierra Cosworth's. It's a Motorola 6808 based box. I'm looking for calibration table configs and parameter specs. I'm also interested in bin files from such boxes, i have the stock bin file if anyone is interested. Any info of any kind would be welcomed! BR Daniel Henriksson ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #246 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".