DIY_EFI Digest        Wednesday, April 28 1999        Volume 04 : Number 248



In this issue:

	Re: Weber Marelli WD48.08 info...
	Re: Fuel injection plugs
	Re: multiple O2 sensors
	Re: Direct Injection
	Re: Fuel injection plugs

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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:14:31 -0500
From: Tom Sharpe <twsharpe@xxx.com>
Subject: Re: Weber Marelli WD48.08 info...

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Are you sure it's a 6808 not an '11? I have an Edelbrock with an '11 and have written a disassembler.   Attached is a
picture - sorry for the bandwidth. Mike, on list, is reprogramming his. regards  Tom S

Daniel R. Henriksson wrote:

> Hi
> Is there anyone out there who has any in-depth info on the internals of the Weber Marelli WD48.08 injection system?
> It's fitted in the -92 Ford Sierra Cosworth's.
>
> It's a Motorola 6808 based box.
>
> I'm looking for calibration table configs and parameter specs.
>
> I'm also interested in bin files from such boxes, i have the stock bin file if anyone is interested.
>
> Any info of any kind would be welcomed!
>
> BR
> Daniel Henriksson



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- --------------D673D6A46AC57F875779415C--

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:19:33 -0400
From: James Ballenger <jballeng@xxx.edu>
Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs

Greg Hermann wrote:

> An Otto cycle is actually MUCH more efficient at full throttle than a
> diesel, especially if you only consider the "air efficiency"--adding fuel
> to the mix brings it closer to a diesel, but not down that faR!

    It is my understanding that a 4 stroke gasoline engine is roughly 25%
efficient, where a diesel is roughly 35% effecient.  It is also my
understanding that effeciency is defined as the (amount of energy
produced)/(amount of energy used).  Gasoline also has more energy per unit
volume than diesel fuel, right?  So given the same volume of fuel used and
roughly equal power output, the gasoline engine will be less efficient.  I
know, I know, they don't have the same power output.  A diesel engine does use
more fuel than a gas engine because of it doesn't mix well right?  It seems to
me that the increased pressure of a diesel further tips the scale in diesels
favor though.  For a given volume of fuel, a diesel produces roughly twice the
pressure as a gas engine right?  So using   PV=nRT, which simplifies to PV~T,
we can say that a diesel has the potential for twice the thermal output for a
given volume of fuel.  I realize that frictional losses, and the flow
characteristics of these two systems are detrimental to the diesel.  I realize
too that gas engines will produce more horsepower at high rpm and conversely a
diesel will produce more torque at low rpm.  I guess the only way to compare
effeciency is to find how much fuel each system uses at a given rpm and compare
it to power output.  Feel free to tell me where I goofed, I'm just an
engineering student learning....





> Where spark engines gain--
>
> Lower internal friction (the cross-over point where efficiency gains from
> higher compression/expansion ratio are actually CANCELLED OUT  by increases
> in internal friction happens somewhere in the 11.5 to 13.5 :1 compression
> ratio range. )

If this were the case, then why would we use diesels at all?  Surely this must
be the case at a given rpm, where the frictional losses overcome increased
power?



> A much more efficient thermodynamic cycle.

You said above "Thermal efficiency depends upon the PEAK TEMPERATURE
reached during th cycle and upon the effective EXPANSION RATIO which is
available during the power stroke of the cycle."  Being that a diesel sees
greater pressure and temperature, wouldn't that neccessarily mean that it has a
more efficient thermodynamic cycle?

James Ballenger

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:24:32 +1200
From: "Tony Bryant" <Tony.Bryant@xxx.nz>
Subject: Re: multiple O2 sensors

> Take a look at the JUNE 1999 issue of Chevy High Performance magazine. On
> page 83  is a photo  of John Lingenfelter's 357 cube
> race truck engine. There are  O2 sensors in each header tube. Only the
> passenger side is shown but it is likely the driver side header has 4
> sensors also. Two Holley 750 dominators feed the engine. Pi Research  on
> board data acquisition collects all of the sensor data. The article does not
> reference the O2 sensors and they appear to be at least 3 wire types. Has
> any one seen this set up before ?   

More likely they'll be EGT probes.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:35:19 -0400
From: James Ballenger <jballeng@xxx.edu>
Subject: Re: Direct Injection

Gary Derian wrote:

> I am aware of Orbital's work.  Their system is a great way to make a 2
> stroke meet emission requirements.  The air assisted injection is necessary
> to achieve fuel air mixing in a limited time since injection occurs after
> the exhaust port is closed.

You mean intake port?  It is necessary to obtain acheive the mixing in the short
period of time, a plus is the good atomization.

> The main benefits to direct injection explained here seem to center on the
> ability to create a stratified charge, a combustible mixture near the spark
> with excess air elsewhere.  This improves part throttle economy.  It also
> reduces HC and CO emissions.  NOx are also reduced but not enough to suit
> current emissions standards.

I dunno about that, from their documentation, orbital claims marginally lower hc
and co emissions with a whopping 85-95% reductions in NOx.  They claim the
injected air results in egr dilution which facilitates the lower NOx.

> So now we have stochiometric fuel mix and economy gearing.  So where does
> direct injection help?  I'm not saying we should stop research on this
> matter, but this list, it seems to me, is primarily concerned with improving
> the performance of our cars by modifying the factory injection systems.  For
> these purposes, direct injection has no benefit.

    Orbital seems to be engineering their system for the best emissions/ fuel
economy and have found a slight increase in torque as a side benefit of sorts.
If one of use were to take the same system and fire it a few degrees earlier, we
would end up with a good mixture and superb atomization of the fuel.  If we were
to richen the mixture a little, we could be running a system that produced far
more power than an mpi system run today and still be able to beat the sniffer.

    James Ballenger

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:36:20 -0600
From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann)
Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs

>Greg Hermann wrote:
>
>> An Otto cycle is actually MUCH more efficient at full throttle than a
>> diesel, especially if you only consider the "air efficiency"--adding fuel
>> to the mix brings it closer to a diesel, but not down that faR!
>
>    It is my understanding that a 4 stroke gasoline engine is roughly 25%
>efficient, where a diesel is roughly 35% effecient.

The difference MIGHT be almost this big at part throttle--but the
difference is due mostly to pumping losses, not necessarily to
thermodynamic superiority

 It is also my
>understanding that effeciency is defined as the (amount of energy
>produced)/(amount of energy used).

This is correct.

 Gasoline also has more energy per unit
>volume than diesel fuel, right?

They are really quite close on a volume basis! within 2% or so, with
gasoline a bit ahead.

So given the same volume of fuel used and
>roughly equal power output, the gasoline engine will be less efficient.  I
>know, I know, they don't have the same power output.  A diesel engine does use
>more fuel than a gas engine because of it doesn't mix well right?

No--more like it cannot burn all of the oxygen it breathes in, so it cannot
make as much power.

 It seems to
>me that the increased pressure of a diesel further tips the scale in diesels
>favor though.

See below about which engine has higher peak pressures.

 For a given volume of fuel, a diesel produces roughly twice the
>pressure as a gas engine right?

Not at all--only place the pressure is higher is at the top of the
compression stroke, prior to ignition/injection.

 Feel free to tell me where I goofed, I'm just an
>engineering student learning....

Where you goofed is by just applying pv=nrt.

The power that you can (ideally) get out of a given amount of gas will
always be limited by the (useful) delta T times the specific heat times the
mass flow. The "useful" delta T is limited by the available expansion
ratio. If the gas is losing heat to the water jacket as it expands, you
will get less than the ideal amount of work out of it.

T1/T2= (P1/P2) exp (0.283) = (V2/V1) exp (0.4) ----These exponents are for
air, and would change somewhat for different gasses. But plenty close
enough to figure out how things work. Likewise--specifc heat varies with
both pressure and temperature, but holding it constant is close enough to
get a GOOD feel for how things work.

The ideal work out of a power stroke, W = (T1-T2) x (specific heat) x (mass
flow).

As you can see from the first equation,  (V2/V1) ---the expansion ratio--
determines how much delta T is possible with a given  engine design.
But--since we are talking about RATIOS, a higher absolute T1  allows more
work from a given mass flow at any given expansion ratio.
>
>
>
>
>
>> Where spark engines gain--
>>
>> Lower internal friction (the cross-over point where efficiency gains from
>> higher compression/expansion ratio are actually CANCELLED OUT  by increases
>> in internal friction happens somewhere in the 11.5 to 13.5 :1 compression
>> ratio range. )
>
>If this were the case, then why would we use diesels at all?  Surely this must
>be the case at a given rpm, where the frictional losses overcome increased
>power?
>
>
>
>> A much more efficient thermodynamic cycle.
>
>You said above "Thermal efficiency depends upon the PEAK TEMPERATURE
>reached during th cycle and upon the effective EXPANSION RATIO which is
>available during the power stroke of the cycle."

 Being that a diesel sees
>greater pressure and temperature,

No, it does not!!

A diesel sees a higher pressure at the top of its compression stroke than a
spark (Otto) engine does, but then burns its fuel at a nearly CONSTANT
pressure. Because it cannot burn at stoichiometric, and because it burns at
constant pressure, its peak temps are not as high!

An Otto cycle engine burns its fuel at a nearly constant VOLUME, and at an
approximately stoich a/f ratio--therefore its peak pressure and temperature
go quite a bit higher than a diesel's do!!!

These facts are exactly why an Otto cycle is inherently more efficient than
a diesel cycle!!

 wouldn't that neccessarily mean that it has a
>more efficient thermodynamic cycle?

See above. The difference between constant pressure and constant volume
burning is the reason for the difference.

Regards, Greg
>
>James Ballenger

------------------------------

End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #248
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