DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, May 2 1999 Volume 04 : Number 258 In this issue: Re: Fuel injection plugs,,,this is for Greg H.........I can feel flames coming Re: cam grinds for SC Re: Fuel injection plugs Re: atomization enhancement Re: atomization enhancement Re: Direct Injection - Stratified Re: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) Re: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Re: Fuel injection plugs Re: Fuel injection plugs Re: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) Re: Fuel injection plugs thank you Re: atomization enhancement Re: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) Re: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Re: atomization enhancement Re: Fuel Pump Check Valve... valve job question machine shop suggestion needed for drilling side draft intake man ifold for injectors Re: machine shop suggestion needed for drilling side draft intake manifold for injectors Re: valve job question Re: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) Re: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Re: atomization enhancement Re: floating flatheads See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 05:52:37 EDT From: EFISYSTEMS@xxx.com Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs,,,this is for Greg H.........I can feel flames coming Hi Greg, And I was just starting to like this guy.......truly no offense Howard but you've got alot to learn..........I used to have people call me for advise just so they could tell me they've been doing it for over twenty years and I need to wipe behind my ears and all I could think was...man......twenty years and you still can't get it right????...just a youngsters thought.... - -Carl Summers In a message dated 5/1/99 9:33:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owly@xxx.net writes: << Subj: Re: Fuel injection plugs Date: 5/1/99 9:33:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time From: owly@xxx.net (Howard Wilkinson) Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu Reply-to: diy_efi@xxx.edu To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Greg: More power to you if you can accomplish that...... I happen to live in the real world, and deal with old fashioned Ford & GM engines such as the FE series and the Small block & big block GM engines. The comment on life expectancy is based on 20+ years of working on these engines. I'd love to see a gas engine with a 500K life in a farm truck, and a bcsf below .35............. With the technology people are using around here the service life I spoke of is realistic based on real life experience, not labratory environments..... some go over 100K TBO, but not many, and it is a struggle to achieve a bcsf of .50 (impossible with a Holley carb). I've worked on a lot of engines over the years, but apparently not seen the bearing setup you describe...... I presume you are refering to Ford 239 engine when speaking of "flattys", and assume you speak of a single bearing spanning an entire rod journal (2 rods)..... I've owned vehicles with these engines, but never had to work on them. I'll believe the .35 and 500k figure when I see it in real life! >> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 08:24:28 -0400 From: Glen Beard Subject: Re: cam grinds for SC jsg@xxx.com wrote: > I'm about to install a Vortech supercharger on my SBC 305 TPI, and > I'm thinking about changing cams too. > > Of course that is of little help, and I would like some idea of what's > going on before contacting manufactures. So, what does make for a good > cam for applications like this? I'm running a CompCam's Extreme blower cam on my 6# Vortech supercharged LT1. It has 218i/230e with a 114 lobe sep. Lifts are .528i/.544e with 1.6:1 roller rockers. The exhaust side, as someone said earlier, needs a larger duration and lift to scavenge the exhaust gasses. Intake isn't as important as it was with the naturally aspirated engine because the blower increases the volumetric efficiency over 100% anyway. The lobe separation at 114 keeps the overlap smaller to prevent blowing your intake air/fuel charge right out the exhaust port. (power and fuel economy takes a dive) Check my page for all the other mods I have done. I'm making 450-500rwhp. (not certain anymore...) - -- Glen Beard 95 T/A conv M6 Vortech open y-pipe ;) http://home.nycap.rr.com/gbeard1/TransAm.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 08:22:31 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs >You don't have to slow the engine down, you reduce the transmission ratio. James--you are missing the whole point. An unthrottled engine, such as a diesel, at a constant speed is one thing. The biggest loss with a throttled engine is the pumping losses--so at light loads you would need to lug the engine down far enough to get only the output needed at WOT. The control problem is not so simple as holding a constant engine speed, even with a continuously variable tranny. Greg > >James Ballenger ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 10:23:03 EDT From: CEIJR@xxx.com Subject: Re: atomization enhancement James: About 5 data points each on four or five sets of injectors, just enough to show us that the injectors didn't follow predicted lines. Seldom as much as 15% off, but often 10% and never within 2% of predicted. A really good study would take a long time, and not realy do much, at least for our small race engine program, since engine efficiencies vary so much at different rpm's. Charlie Iliff ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 10:10:11 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: atomization enhancement There has been some recent research that indicates the best atomization occurs when the exhaust hits the puddled fuel behind the intake valve when the valve opens. Atomization of fuel as it leaves the injector is not terribly important. Gary Derian > I'd like to propose a simple atomization enhancement strategy. It is > well known that higher pressure results in better atomization in a > fuel injection system.... Caterpillar has carried this to extremes and > has some diesel engines running ungodly high pressures....I don't know > the exact figures. > I propose changing out the injectors on my vehicle with injectors > rated for lower flow, and raising the pressure to compensate. > Pressure would be adjusted in "open loop" mode using an exhaust > analyzer. It has been said that most injectors are rated at pressures > far above what they are operated at. > I'm sure this is far from an original idea, and that some of you > have done it..... How much difference does it make, and what about > pump load at the higher pressures..... how much increase in pressure > is required. > I'd like to hear about peoples experiences and mishaps doing this > ;-) > > H.W. > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 10:22:02 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Direct Injection - Stratified Any time a device that restricts flow is introduced into the path of air and fuel, power is reduced. A pre-chamber is such a device and such an engine will lose efficiency compared to an open chamber design. As long as an engine runs lean enough to use all the available fuel, leaner is only useful to reduce pumping losses, which does improve economy, but leaner is not the only way to reduce pumping losses. Gary Derian snip > Try some out of box thinking. The propaganda is that Stratified Charge is to > facilitate burning an overall lean mixture thereby increasing milage. snip > , think about using two fuels. The first - thru the prechamber, is an easy to > ignite, relatively fast burning fuel that will generate a nice flame jet and > readily ignite the main chamber. snip ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 08:25:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies Subject: Re: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) On Sun, 2 May 1999, Aaron Willis wrote: > At 10:37 PM 5/1/99 -0600, you wrote: > > > >There was also the not-so modern SOHC hemi Tornado. Quite the motor in its > >IKA (Argentinian) twelve port headed, triple DCEO Webered trim! (310 HP > >from 230 cid at only 5200 rpm! > > > Hey, cool, I've seen one but know nothing about them. What did they come > in? The one I saw was a Jeep military truck, and did NOT have three DCOE > Webers!! What would be packing the hot version? > Jeep used the Continental 6-226 for years. A typical long stroke flathead engine. Jeep even called some models the 6-226. As an elcheapo way of modernizing this ancient engine, they came up with the OHC head. The long, spindly 6-226 connecting rods loved the higher RPM that came with the new head...NOT. Most of these engines [that I saw] were on auto wrecker core piles. The head always looked OK which is more than you could say about the sides of the block. Oh, yeah. Continental has an interesting policy on parts prices. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:22:53 -0700 From: "Howard Wilkinson" Subject: Re: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? It would seem to me that no matter what you do as far as restriction, as soon as the key is shut off, the increase in cooling system pressure will be equal throughout the system. I find it hard to imagine that the heater core would be subjected to enough increased pressure from the water pump to be an issue. The water pump mainly creates a pressure differential throughout the system so that coolant can circulate..... I suspect that there is very little if any increase relative to atmospheric pressure over what the static system pressure is. A good heater core should be capable of withstanding any internal cooling system pressure likely to be seen in an automobile with a properly functioning pressure cap. H.W. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:48:55 -0700 From: "Howard Wilkinson" Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs Greg: I've personally seen irrigation pump motors run on propane over 10K hrs. This is a considerably different environment than a farm truck. As for Holley carbs, it is unfortunate that pot metal has very low salvage value. I'll just have to take your word for it on the potential of these carbs.... I've never seen it. When you do get one of these working halfway decently, they have a very short life expectancy between overhauls. I've over the years replaced every Holly carb I ever owned with the good old style Autolight / Motorcraft carbs that actually can be made to work correctly and efficiently throughout their operating range. It is unfortunate that the Holly, Motorcraft, and Autolight carb familys used neoprene diaphragms in accelerator pumps and in power valves.... they don't like today's gas at all. Personally I feel that of the 4 bbl carbs available, the plain old Quadrajet would have had the most potential of any of them if they had only made replaceable secondary orfices.... once these are worn there's nothing to be done. I've built a puller and removed them, and I suppose you could manufacture a replacement, but...... Now we've got EFI. I take nearly all horsepower claims with more than a grain of salt...... I also must confess to be a grave doubter of bscf numbers. What I've often run into in the aviation field are people who state the max horsepower, and then state a fuel consumption figure which is obviously taken at 20% or 30% throttle in such a way as to imply that their engine for example puts out 100 hp on 2 gpm when in truth their 100hp engine will not put out a sustained 100hp, nor will it do it on the absurd figure of 2gpm. The engine is in fact putting out about 24 hp when the fuel consumption is measured. I suspect that this nonsense is not confined only to aviation. All bscf figures which exceed .5 by very much automatically fall under suspicion here :-)..... No offense intended. H.W. - -----Original Message----- From: Greg Hermann >The 500K figure takes a good engine to begin with, and then some high tech >tricks and quality parts on top of that. The engine I have started out with >has a lengthy track record of running 10K hours on the heads, and 25 K >hours on the bottom end, on natural gas, at about 80% load, 2400 rpm on >well head irrigation pump applications. And that--with "farmer" >maintenance! So--I think, with some careful attention to details, my >durability goal is attainable. > >As to the bsfc--check out some dyno charts for small block f & c engines >running IR manifolded Weber carbs. .375 bsfc is common on these engines >with this type of an induction setup and good headers--given a competent >tuner. In fact--these numbers could just lead a guy to believe that there >is something to this business of wanting better fuel atomization and a fuel >squirt timed to coincide with high inhale velocity in the port! So--with >good efi, .35 should be within reach for light loads. The real challenge >will be in seeing how much lower than that can be had!! A competently tuned >Holley will get down to about .45 bsfc on a decent motor, in my experience. >(Somewhat lower if not into the power valve, and maybe just a little higher >at WOT if you know how to set the pvcr correctly.) > >Regards, Greg > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 08:51:19 -0700 From: "Howard Wilkinson" Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs James: I'm not speaking of keeping the engine constant..... only keeping it a WOT........ The RPM is the throttle and is controlled by the gearing and load. H.W. - -----Original Message----- From: James Ballenger To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 12:17 AM Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs > > >Howard Wilkinson wrote: > >> My thinking is that if you provide a high enough gear ratio to >> accomplish the objective of nearly always being able to throttle with >> the transmission, it will at times be >> necessary to gear down further than your belt drive transmission >> allows for power, just as gravity may overcome your ability to >> throttle with load at the other end. H.W. > >I agree, though I would say a wide enough gear ratio rather than high >enough because the range would have to be beyond the scope of todays >transmissions to keep the engine constant. > >James Ballenger > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:00:47 -0700 From: "Howard Wilkinson" Subject: Re: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) Jack: I have long suspected that many cams have considerable error in the alignment of lobe centers. I once was asked to change out the third Subaru (EA 81) engine for a fellow who had installed 2 rebuilt engines only to have to return them to the rebuilder due to rattling. This was a major Seattle area rebuilder. When I looked at the engine pior to removal to determine exactly what was happening, I discovered that it was valve noise, but that it couldn't be adjusted out of it. This seemed odd to me, so I took measurements with feeler guages while turning the engine over a little at a time, an discovered a low spot right at the base of the ramp which when proper adjustment was made opposite the lobe yielded a measurement of about .025. Human error seem to be inescapable. Unfortunately with camshafts it is very difficult to verify that they are what they are supposed to be. H.W. - -----Original Message----- From: goflo@xxx.net> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 2:39 AM Subject: Re: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) >An additional consideration with re-grinding cams is the >torsional relaxation caused by removing significant amounts >of metal. This changes the phase relationships between lobes. >I have in my possession a performance regrind TR6 cam which >has a 14 degree phase error between front and rear lobe pair >centers. The grind was done by a national rep grinder (and >purportedly checked with their cam doctor). > >This is probably a worst-case deal, as this cam is long and >slender, and has ~.125" additional lift ground-in, but much >smaller phase errors screw things up noticeably. >This too can be avoided by proper regrinding techniques, but >once again, by the time you do it right, you coulda bought a >new one... > >I check new ones too :) > >Regards, Jack > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 12:47:49 -0400 From: Raymond C Drouillard Subject: Re: Fuel injection plugs On Sun, 02 May 1999 01:46:50 -0400 James Ballenger writes: > > >Raymond C Drouillard wrote: > >> CHANGING THE GEARING CHANGES THE ENGINE SPEED! THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT! > > Shifting gears changes the engine speed. The point is if we didnt need >to shift and had a smooth transition through the whole range we could keep >the engine rpm constant. When you are in first gear you rev up the engine in >a static gear and then shift it to start reving in a new static gear. You >could make the gearing dynamic, a cvt, and be able to keep the engine speed >constant. > > >> A CVT doesn't change the power (besides the ordinary efficiency losses). >> If you attempt to reduce the torque to the drive wheels by changing the >> gear ratio, you will either slow down the engine or speed up the vehicle. >> >> An unthrottled engine running at a specific speed (max torque, for >> example) is going to put out a specific amount of power. If this is more >> power than is required to maintain the desired cruise speed, the vehicle >> will speed up. > > A cvt wouldnt change the effective torque at the crank, but would modify >it at the drive wheels. What happens if you keep your rpm constant and shift >from 1st to 4th? You can keep the load on the engine constant and therefore >the rpm constant by changing the gear ratio. I suppose a problem occurs >when there is little load on the engine, but the could be countered by an >insanely low (numerically) gear keeping in mind I am discussing a perfect cvt >with infinite range. > >> If you want to prevent this without throttling - that is, if you want to >> maintain the same cruise speed without throttling, you will need to >> change the gear ratio. Assuming that you don't speed up, the engine will >> HAVE to slow down. > >You don't have to slow the engine down, you reduce the transmission ratio. > >James Ballenger > James, Please find a textbook or go to the library and look up the formulas that relate torque, speed, and power. Also, look up the formulas that relate gear ratio, torque multiplication, and speed multiplication. I have memorized them long ago. A lot of what you are saying flys directly in the face of those mathematical relationships. I have tried very patiently to explain how such a system will work, but something just isn't working. After you have memorized those formulas, reread the messages. If you do this, enlightenment will come. Hint: If you run an engine at WOT, it will produce a specific amount of power at a specific speed. If this power is more than necessary to overcome friction, the vehicle WILL speed up. It makes no difference whether you are using a stepped or continuously variable transmission. Adding a control system to a CVT will succeed in keeping the engine speed stady, but the vehicle will STILL speed up. It's simple physics. Look up the formulas and try to apply them. Ray Drouillard, BSEE ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 10:11:37 -0600 From: Marc Piccioni Subject: thank you Just a short note to say that I am dropping off the list for a while, due to an extended trip. I wish to thank all the members who have answered my newbie EFI questions. Regards /Marc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 12:21:01 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: atomization enhancement At 10:10 AM 5/2/99 -0400, you wrote: >There has been some recent research that indicates the best atomization >occurs when the exhaust hits the puddled fuel behind the intake valve when >the valve opens. Atomization of fuel as it leaves the injector is not >terribly important. Yes, but that's not atomization, that's vaporization... and if it's caused by the exhaust hitting the puddled fuel, that means it's being blown back into the intake runner causing intake dilution and fuel distribution problems. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 10:09:52 -0700 From: goflo@xxx.net Subject: Re: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) Not real familiar with Subaru grinds, but involute ramps are common in some designs - Chrysler went through many permutations of such on 2.2/2.5 motors, for instance. Regrinding such profiles with conventional regrinding equipment is possible, but a poor job will result in an engine which runs poorly, for no obvious reason... Regards, Jack Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > Jack: > I have long suspected that many cams have considerable error in > the alignment of lobe centers. > I once was asked to change out the third Subaru (EA 81) engine for > a fellow who had installed 2 rebuilt engines only to have to return > them to the rebuilder due to rattling. This was a major Seattle area > rebuilder. When I looked at the engine pior to removal to determine > exactly what was happening, I discovered that it was valve noise, but > that it couldn't be adjusted out of it. This seemed odd to me, so I > took measurements with feeler guages while turning the engine over a > little at a time, an discovered a low spot right at the base of the > ramp which when proper adjustment was made opposite the lobe yielded a > measurement of about .025. > Human error seem to be inescapable. Unfortunately with camshafts > it is very difficult to verify that they are what they are supposed to > be. H.W. > > -----Original Message----- > From: goflo@xxx.net> > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 2:39 AM > Subject: Re: Cam regrinds feasible? (roller regrind) > > >An additional consideration with re-grinding cams is the > >torsional relaxation caused by removing significant amounts > >of metal. This changes the phase relationships between lobes. > >I have in my possession a performance regrind TR6 cam which > >has a 14 degree phase error between front and rear lobe pair > >centers. The grind was done by a national rep grinder (and > >purportedly checked with their cam doctor). > > > >This is probably a worst-case deal, as this cam is long and > >slender, and has ~.125" additional lift ground-in, but much > >smaller phase errors screw things up noticeably. > >This too can be avoided by proper regrinding techniques, but > >once again, by the time you do it right, you coulda bought a > >new one... > > > >I check new ones too :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 10:24:17 -0700 From: Ross Corrigan Subject: Re: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? Howard, I don't know any data specific terms to the heater core failures my southern friends experienced (I'm in BC and they're all in the US) but it always went during a WOT dust off of some other hipo car. They replaced initially w/ junkyard units, they failed, then with several Nissan units to find they failed under same circumstances. My inexperienced slant at it is they had a far higher volume/flow than that heater core would normally experience d/2 their rate of acceleration/ hybrid chevy systems/ and most likely the Nissan pumps weren't designed for this flow. If not designed for that flow and given much higher flow than OEM it could create higher pressure than they were designed for given their has to be restrictions in the heater core system leading to this pressure increase (if flow isn't accomodated pressure goes up). I agree w/ you that static pressure as you described shouldn't be a problem as the systems are very similar in design pressures and all related components were in as new condition. These were all low 4 second 0-60 cars setup as sweet daily drivers on NA chevy's. Not fun having a heater core blow during a WOT high speed run that fogs your windshield. Just dont' want that to be me. thanks again for all this feedback, I"m going to gather them up as a FAQ to post on my page eventually for us ZV8's. FWIW, their Datsun heater cores were 20+ yrs old and functioning fine when they first went, no quality problems their. At 08:22 AM 5/4/99 -0700, you wrote: >It would seem to me that no matter what you do as far as restriction, >as soon as the key is shut off, the increase in cooling system >pressure will be equal throughout the system. I find it hard to >imagine that the heater core would be subjected to enough increased >pressure from the water pump to be an issue. The water pump mainly >creates a pressure differential throughout the system so that coolant >can circulate..... I suspect that there is very little if any increase >relative to atmospheric pressure over what the static system pressure >is. A good heater core should be capable of withstanding any internal >cooling system pressure likely to be seen in an automobile with a >properly functioning pressure cap. H.W. > > > Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv@xxx.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:56:38 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: atomization enhancement Also, be advised many of the low end aromatics boil at 120-150dF depending on the seasonal brew. Bruce > There has been some recent research that indicates the best atomization > occurs when the exhaust hits the puddled fuel behind the intake valve when > the valve opens. Atomization of fuel as it leaves the injector is not > terribly important. > Gary Derian > I'd like to propose a simple atomization enhancement strategy. It is > > well known that higher pressure results in better atomization in a > > fuel injection system.... Caterpillar has carried this to extremes and > > has some diesel engines running ungodly high pressures....I don't know > > the exact figures. > > I propose changing out the injectors on my vehicle with injectors > > rated for lower flow, and raising the pressure to compensate. > > Pressure would be adjusted in "open loop" mode using an exhaust > > analyzer. It has been said that most injectors are rated at pressures > > far above what they are operated at. > > I'm sure this is far from an original idea, and that some of you > > have done it..... How much difference does it make, and what about > > pump load at the higher pressures..... how much increase in pressure > > is required. > > I'd like to hear about peoples experiences and mishaps doing this H.W. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:59:57 -0700 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: Fuel Pump Check Valve... >Another quick question for you guys... :) > >Anyone know of a source for an inline, high pressure check valve...in either >a 5/16" or 3/8" (dual barbed), or -6AN? Talk to Kinsler Fuel Injection (1-248-362-1145). They have two different style check valves (and fittings for same), which can be used expressly for this purpose . The first is a "flapper" style check, which has the advantages of a very low cracking pressure and good flow potential. The second is of the "spring loaded poppet" style, which offers more positive sealing while imposing a relatively high cracking pressure. If purchasing industrial hydraulic equivalents (Parker, etc...), be mindful of the overall flow potential and pressure drop issues. They can tend to be somewhat constricted internally, despite the appearance of large entry/exit ports. Walt. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 11:24:34 -0700 From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" Subject: valve job question question for the group mind. In my younger days when doing valve jobs for customers cars, I would clean off the carbon that was on top of the cylinders. I used to rotate the engine around and bring the pistons up to tdc and whirl away with a drill bit mounted wire brush. nowadays I wonder if all it did was make the piston top pretty and introduce lots of debris into the engine especially the cylinder walls, creating years of wear in minutes. I'm doing a valve job on my Chevy v8, and I don't want to incur any more wear on the cylinder walls nor do I really want to spin the motor around as I want to drop the distributor right back in where I pulled it. the engine was leaking oil past the guides and has a uniform amount of build up on top of the pistons. should I leave it alone, ? spray some chemical thing on the top and leave it then wipe it all away , then most likely leave some lubricant in the cylinders. or do something else ? thanks, Ted Stowe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 11:32:44 -0700 From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" Subject: machine shop suggestion needed for drilling side draft intake man ifold for injectors hi. I have a cast iron intake for a inline 4 cyl that I would like to have drilled for injectors. it is a challenge to make this work and if I had a manifold to practice on I'd do it myself but I'd rather have someone who knows what they are doing handle it. (cast iron, thin, and the surface area is curved) can anyone give me any suggestions for speed shops , or whatever that could do this ? thanks. Ted. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 14:50:56 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: machine shop suggestion needed for drilling side draft intake manifold for injectors > I have a cast iron intake for a inline 4 cyl that I would like to have > drilled for injectors. I just did this on my aluminum intake, and the concepts are the same. http://www.xephic.dynip.com/dodge/383intake.htm > it is a challenge to make this work and if I had a manifold to practice on > I'd do it myself but I'd rather have someone who knows what they are doing > handle it. Since mine was aluminum, it was easier than cast iron to bore using "stubby" drill bits in my drill press. The injector bungs were made out of aluminum tubing, lathed to fit the contour of the injectors, then TIG welded in. Normally I use the www.durafix.com product, however I had an opportunity to learn how to TIG recently, then use my friend's welder to achieve this. However, if you can drill the holes yourself, or pay someone to drill them, you can still braze in the injector bungs yourself. The durafix site if you call them used to have steel brazing rods that work on the same principle, however I didn't see them on the website. Anyway, using a propane torch, you can braze in steel injector bungs and make a nice seal. JB Weld will achieve the same thing. Another option my friend came up with is to thread the injector bungs, thread the milled holes in the intake, and wrap teflon tape (or use locktite) around the threads and screw them in. I hope that helped. - --- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology "Leadership in IT" Bridgeport, CT 06606 Web: http://www.xephic.dynip.com Voice: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 14:52:21 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: valve job question Once ya get tit reassembles just use a plant mister, and spray in some water. Not alot, at once just a little for a while. Steam cleans.. Next time might do it first. Bruce > nowadays I wonder if all it did was make the piston top pretty and introduce > lots of debris into the engine especially the cylinder walls, creating years > of wear in minutes. > I'm doing a valve job on my Chevy v8, and I don't want to incur any more > wear on the cylinder walls nor do I really want to spin the motor around as > I want to drop the distributor right back in where I pulled it. > the engine was leaking oil past the guides and has a uniform amount of build > up on top of the pistons. > should I > leave it alone, ? > spray some chemical thing on the top and leave it then wipe it all away , > then most likely leave some lubricant in the cylinders. > or do something else ? thanks, Ted Stowe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 12:55:05 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Flame - Not (Tornado engine?) >On Sun, 2 May 1999, Aaron Willis wrote: > >> At 10:37 PM 5/1/99 -0600, you wrote: >> > >> >There was also the not-so modern SOHC hemi Tornado. Quite the motor in its >> >IKA (Argentinian) twelve port headed, triple DCEO Webered trim! (310 HP >> >from 230 cid at only 5200 rpm! >> > >> Hey, cool, I've seen one but know nothing about them. What did they come >> in? The one I saw was a Jeep military truck, and did NOT have three DCOE >> Webers!! What would be packing the hot version? >> >Jeep used the Continental 6-226 for years. A typical long stroke flathead >engine. Jeep even called some models the 6-226. As an elcheapo way of >modernizing this ancient engine, they came up with the OHC head. The long, >spindly 6-226 connecting rods loved the higher RPM that came with the new >head...NOT. > >Most of these engines [that I saw] were on auto wrecker core piles. The >head always looked OK which is more than you could say about the sides of >the block. > >Oh, yeah. Continental has an interesting policy on parts prices. All true. The Argentinian Kaiser plant in Cordoba came up with some revised rods along with the twelve port head. The car you would find such a beast in was called a "Torino"--but not at all like a Ford by the same name. It was based on the late sixties Rambler American body tub, but had an outer skin done by Pinin Farina. It also had IRS, and about 8 inches of wheel travel at each corner, and a five speed gear box which was built under license from ZF. The IKA Torinos absolutely dominated closed circuit AND over the road racing in south america for a number of years, and one or two of them even got entered in the endurance race at the Nurbergring one year, but they were not very successful, mostly due to the rather long logistics line from home. Note the rather low engine speed for the peak power on the Torino version of the Tornado engine--this speaks to Jim's comments about the Continental block, even with far better rods installed. Scary to think how much power they could have made with a stronger block and crank and some more revs and 48 mm in place of 45 mm Webers! In this country--the Tornado engines only came with an eight port head (individual exhausts, but two logged intakes), and obviously without the good rods. It came in early sixties Gladiator pick-ups and Wagoneers. And, as one might expect for a hemi head with a short duration cam with aggressive valve lift rates, it got rather good mileage--about 17.5 mpg, highway--- in a well tuned 4x4 Gladiator. But--no, it was not a high revver. Regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:09:17 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: NC hybrid setup/coolant blows heater core/how to avoid? >It would seem to me that no matter what you do as far as restriction, >as soon as the key is shut off, the increase in cooling system >pressure will be equal throughout the system. I find it hard to >imagine that the heater core would be subjected to enough increased >pressure from the water pump to be an issue. The water pump mainly >creates a pressure differential throughout the system so that coolant >can circulate..... I suspect that there is very little if any increase >relative to atmospheric pressure over what the static system pressure >is. A good heater core should be capable of withstanding any internal >cooling system pressure likely to be seen in an automobile with a >properly functioning pressure cap. H.W. Your suspicions and imaginings are incorrect on this one, Howard. While the heater core may or may not take the pressure OK, the water pump makes a substantial amount of pressure head inside the water jackets. And this additional head is VERY important to preventing localized boiling (beyond nucleate boiling) in the hottest parts of the heads. The head is created by the restriction to coolant flow which is provided by the thermostat, and is why a thermostat should not be removed (or, if it is, should be replaced by something which restricts coolant flow to the same extent as the stat did). The pressure head which the water pump generates is proportional to the square of the pump rpm, and at , say, 5000 pump rpm, for a pump with an impeller the size of most water pumps, it would not be unreasonable to expect to see 25 or 30 psi of pressure in the water jackets in ADDITION the pressure from the radiator cap!! And if the thermostat restriction is removed, the water pump will cavitate due to not having enough NPSH at the resulting (higher flow at less developed head) point on its curve for that particular impeller speed! Regads, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:21:58 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: atomization enhancement >At 10:10 AM 5/2/99 -0400, you wrote: >>There has been some recent research that indicates the best atomization >>occurs when the exhaust hits the puddled fuel behind the intake valve when >>the valve opens. Atomization of fuel as it leaves the injector is not >>terribly important. > >Yes, but that's not atomization, that's vaporization... and if it's caused >by the exhaust hitting the puddled fuel, that means it's being blown back >into the intake runner causing intake dilution and fuel distribution problems. BINGO, Dave!! Not to mention that this approach to fuel vaporization is thermodynamically far less efficient than ATOMIZATION! Using the latent heat of the fuel to cool the inlet valve, only so the valve can rob heat from the next power stroke to heat back up is a thermal inefficiency. Letting the latent heat of well atomized fuel make the compression process in the cylinder more nearly isothermal than adiabatic increases net power output by reducing the amount of work which the engine must do during the compression stroke! Good vaporization of fuel is important to emissions--but it can happen either way. Good atomization of fuel is important only to power and efficiency, so it has been somewhat shortchanged in the research funding. Regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:34:38 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: floating flatheads >Pardon me for interrupting the spirited repartee, but what >the heck is a floating bearing, Greg? I know about inserts >and rollers, have poured and bored babbit bushes... >Piston pins "float" in rod bushes - Unless they don't. >Perhaps you are referring to dip/splash oiling schemes, as >opposed to pressure lubrication? >Anyway, would appreciate an elaboration. > >Thanks, Jack There is clearance between the bearing insert and the housing, as well as between the bearing insert and its journal. Sometimes, such a bearing is pinned to the housing, as in turbochargers (if you have a copy of the McInnes book, there is a write up on them, as applied to turbos, in there). I believe that for a while, like in the late forties, floating rod bearing were the supposedly "hot set-up" to have in a lakester flatty. Didn't mean to be quite so sharp with the guy, but I really do HATE to see so much mis-info coming from one source, all at once, with such an authoritative tone! After all--there do seem to be some on the list who really want to learn, and that kind of stuff does not help them at all! As far as I am concerned--twenty years of maintaining farm equipment in the way that most of that poor stuff gets taken care of is twenty years of doing things wrong that the guy needs to un-learn! Regards, Greg ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #258 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".