DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, May 4 1999 Volume 04 : Number 261 In this issue: ARAP bin Re: Espen's Reed Valves CFM Questions Re: Transplant Re: 747 for timing only Re: Injectors & harness Re: Injectors & harness RE: Transplant Re: Injectors & harness ECU7 EFI project plans Re: Transplant Fish Carb.... not dead yet? Re: Injectors & harness Re: Injectors & harness Fish Carbs fuel line check valve reality check OT max economy, engine stress Re: Fish Carb.... not dead yet? 305 TPI and 808 ECM Re: OT max economy, engine stress See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:16:05 -0400 From: "Andrew F. Gunnesch" Subject: ARAP bin The "hot ticket" for '89 '165 chips is supposed to be the ARAP. >From one of Bruce's prior posts: arap 4194 5.7 Auto 89 Vet Anybody have an ARAP binary they could mail to me and/or upload to /incoming? Thanks! - --andrew - -- Andrew Gunnesch sgi, onsite at Ford Motor Company Voice: 248-848-4517 FAX: 313-441-6341 V-net: 327-4517 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 19:35:34 -0500 From: Chad Clendening Subject: Re: Espen's Reed Valves I may still have one from a 72 Evinrude 600 ( 650 ? ) cc 2 cylinder snowmobile in a bucket. If memory serves, the thing had 8 reeds and was 3 tall, 1 1/2 " wide and 2" deep, for each cylinder. I can look for it if anyone wants specifics. Chad Aaron Willis wrote: > At 05:15 PM 5/3/99 -0400, you wrote: > >Remember how expensive internal engine parts are. If the reeds brake they > >can raise hell inside an engine. > > They are good for just a very limited range, before they "peg" open.... > >To get enough reed area for a "big" engine to breath thru would be a huge > >reed cage. > >Bruce > > I see your point. Does anyone have access top a reed cage from, say, a > 500cc motocrosser? That should flow enough air for the 60+ horsepower it > produces. Is it too big to fit nicely into a typical intake port? Say an > eight-cylinder engine, so eight times 60 = 480 horse capacity. It seems > too simple to me, maybe somebody can help me out here? > I understand that flow through a two-stroke engine cannot be compared > directly to that of a four-stroke, but am too lazy to do the figuring and > figured I'd offer this to the group as fodder... > > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 > AOL IM: hemiyota > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 17:59:36 PDT From: "David Sagers" Subject: CFM Questions Anyone know how to calculate CFM rates? I was talking to the shop that's building the turbo set up for my chevy engine. He said that at 15 lbs of boost each runner on a stock TPI will flow 600 cfm. I think the stock runners are 1.25" But 600 cfm sounds really high for such a small tube, even at 15 lbs of boost. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 21:13:21 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Transplant CLsnyder wrote: > > > Some engines were MADE with spinning inserts - bearing material on both > sides. Others use a loose cage rollers, with the rod being the outer race, > and the crank the inner. Obviously the latter are NOT pressure lubed. What engines used roller bearings? What applications? Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 20:08:28 -0700 From: rr Subject: Re: 747 for timing only No, I haven't put it up there yet. I've been busy again, something about finding a job. Did you know that there are people out there, that insist on finding you a job? The nerve of some folks! Really does cut into the free time . I've been playing around with the aldl list, trying to have the timing values output. I think I've got it, but it's raining today. I promise that I'll get it there soon, I need to clean-up the bin by removing the fueling changes that aren't being used. BobR. P.S> Shannen, I'm sending a copy of what I have... I'll post when the final hit's incoming. Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Did the BIN for the 747 ignition only setup get posted to the incoming > directory? If not, can someone forward a copy to me? > Thanks. > Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 22:02:24 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Injectors & harness Wait, there's a catch. If this has the same injector as used in the later 4.3l Vortech engine, it's got a different connector. Barry, if the injector looks like a bug and is buried in the center of a large, 2 piece manifold you can find similar parts in Astrovans and S-10s with the VIN W engine. Shannen Bruce Plecan wrote: > > All GM TPI injectors use the same connector, as well as most ford. > Pep boys might even have them. > True Value does, but I don't have the number > Bruce > > > I'm looking for a couple of injectors & connectors from a Syclone ('91 GMC > port injected 4.3) for setting up a test rig. Does any other vehicle use > these port injectors & matching connectors? I'm not likely to find a > Syclone or Typhoon @xxx. > > Thanks - Barry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 23:01:47 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Injectors & harness - ----- Original Message ----- From: Shannen Durphey To: Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 10:02 PM Subject: Re: Injectors & harness The injectors I just bought out of a sy really look like the ones I put in the Buick GN fuel rails. Bruce > Wait, there's a catch. If this has the same injector as used in the > later 4.3l Vortech engine, it's got a different connector. > Barry, if the injector looks like a bug and is buried in the center of > a large, 2 piece manifold you can find similar parts in Astrovans and > S-10s with the VIN W engine. > Shannen > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > All GM TPI injectors use the same connector, as well as most ford. > > Pep boys might even have them. > > True Value does, but I don't have the number > > Bruce > > > > > I'm looking for a couple of injectors & connectors from a Syclone ('91 GMC > > port injected 4.3) for setting up a test rig. Does any other vehicle use > > these port injectors & matching connectors? I'm not likely to find a > > Syclone or Typhoon @xxx. > > > Thanks - Barry > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:17:21 -0700 From: "James Montebello" Subject: RE: Transplant > What engines used roller bearings? What applications? > Shannen A great many engines use roller bearings. The bottom ends of most two-stroke engines are all roller bearings. A good many four-stroke motorcycle engines have also been made using rolling-element bottom ends. Harleys use them, most four-stroke singles, and quite a few large displacement fours made by Suzuki and Kawasaki used rollers. Even on engines with plain main and big end bearings, rollers are typically used at the ends of the crankshaft, and in the gearboxes. Porsche made a few racing engines that used roller bearing bottom ends in the '50s, and '60s. In all cases, the crankshafts are multiple pieces pressed together around the bearings and one-piece rods. For very high-stress operation, these bits would be welded together. If the crank needed to be rebuilt, the weld was ground off, and the parts pressed apart. Most of these engines are not low power applications, either. The two-stroke GP machines made today produce in excess of 400hp/liter unsupercharged. The big roller bearing Suzuki and Kawasaki engines are very popular in drag-bike applications. james montebello ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:52:32 -0700 (PDT) From: thergen@xxx.net Subject: Re: Injectors & harness My '92 6 cyl vortec 4.3 (vin W) has a single CPI injector (Central Port Injector as describe in the factory service manual). It is a single injector with six flexible tubes coming off and special nozzles at the end that maintain pressure in in the tubes when the injector not flowing. The nozzles have plastic clips that hold them into holes at the end of each intake runner. I thought the Syclone (vin Z?) actually had 6 injectors. Anyways, the CPI does inject at the port, but I haven't heard it called a TPI injector. Tom On Mon, 3 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shannen Durphey > To: > Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 10:02 PM > Subject: Re: Injectors & harness > > The injectors I just bought out of a sy really look like the ones I put in > the Buick GN fuel rails. > Bruce > > > Wait, there's a catch. If this has the same injector as used in the > > later 4.3l Vortech engine, it's got a different connector. > > Barry, if the injector looks like a bug and is buried in the center of > > a large, 2 piece manifold you can find similar parts in Astrovans and > > S-10s with the VIN W engine. > > Shannen > > > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > All GM TPI injectors use the same connector, as well as most ford. > > > Pep boys might even have them. > > > True Value does, but I don't have the number > > > Bruce > > > > > > > I'm looking for a couple of injectors & connectors from a Syclone ('91 > GMC > > > port injected 4.3) for setting up a test rig. Does any other vehicle > use > > > these port injectors & matching connectors? I'm not likely to find a > > > Syclone or Typhoon @xxx. > > > > Thanks - Barry > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 21:05:46 -0700 From: Al Lipper Subject: ECU7 EFI project plans Marc, it is good to hear of your interest, as well as your experience with th 80C552. It sounds like you've done some nice work with it. At the present time, we have a relatively final version of the ECU7 schematic (newer than the one on the web), as well as a completed PC board layout. Unfortunately, it is expensive to have a small quantity of PC boards made (close to $500), so I've been unable to move ahead until I can either find a cheaper way to have them made, or find enough people to split the cost. I'm planning to post the most recent version of ECU7 to the web, as soon as I can get some more web space. The schematic and PCB were done with OrCAD 386+, so if you have compatible software, I'd be happy to e-mail you the original source files. We've been looking for someone with 80C552 experience for a while, so hearing from you is very fortuitous. Even better, it sounds like you've already done some of what we need. The first thing is the writing of a .HEX loader that will allow an intel .HEX file received over the serial port to be loaded into the 5v flash memory. The second thing is for the old assembly routines (EFI02.ASM) that worked on ECU6, running on the Intel 80C51GB to be converted to use the 552. The 80C51GB used PCA's where the 552 has its own capture/compare timers. Also, the A/D converter read routines need adaptation. It's really a rather simple file, and hopefully the documentation is clear. Once we can get one of these built and working, I expect progress can be swift. Thanks for all of your help, Marc - it's good to have you on the project. Al efi@xxx.org At 09:57 PM 5/3/99 +0200, you wrote: >Hi All, > >With interest I read your page about your DIY-EFI. I was reading the >revision 7 files and noticed you will be using the 80C552. Although I do not >think these are best for EFI, I do think they will work well. I have made my >own 80C552 board and it has some nice features. Like flash programming (on >board), downloading .HEX files to the board for execution (without burning >them in flash). I am very interested in EFI and have quite some knowledge in >assembler programming the 80C552. I would be very interested in cooperating >with you. If you are also interested, can you please mail me back with the >status of revision 7 and a short to-do list ? > >Thanks in advance and keep up the good work > >Marc >marc@xxx.nl > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 22:51:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Transplant - -> What engines used roller bearings? What applications? Bugatti - all the straight eights were ball and roller bearing Alfa Romeo - many of the prewar engines Lots of airplanes and motorcycles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 21:07:24 -0700 From: "Howard Wilkinson" Subject: Fish Carb.... not dead yet? A friend of mine used to own one of the original fish carbs, and I've had it apart and examined it. It was tried on a number of vehicles, and the results were uniformly dissapointing..... and not for lack of trying. I personally put the fish in the same category as the Borke engine and many other wonderful technologies over the years that didn't work......... An old friend of mine tells of having all sorts of gas savers, magnets on gas lines, etc on his car, but of having to remove them due to the inconvenience of having to stop every 50 miles or so and siphon off surplus gas....... If you believe that one, I've got some land in Florida you might be interested in ;-) H.W. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 00:08:01 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Injectors & harness At 08:52 PM 5/3/99 -0700, you wrote: >My '92 6 cyl vortec 4.3 (vin W) has a single CPI injector (Central Port >Injector as describe in the factory service manual). It is a single >injector with six flexible tubes coming off and special nozzles at the end >that maintain pressure in in the tubes when the injector not flowing. The >nozzles have plastic clips that hold them into holes at the end of each >intake runner. > >I thought the Syclone (vin Z?) actually had 6 injectors. > It does >Anyways, the CPI does inject at the port, but I haven't heard it called a >TPI injector. > The TPI just means tuned port injection... CPI is actually TPI, as the CPI manifold is tuned for specific torque peaks at 2 different RPM instead of just one...Air door closed (low RPM) and one with it open (high RPM). =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 00:48:44 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Injectors & harness Ok. Then the 4.3W and the Syclone don't share injectors. The W engine has one injector connected to 6 poppet nozzles, each through a hose. Looks a little like a deformed spider. Shannen Bruce Plecan wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Shannen Durphey > To: > Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 10:02 PM > Subject: Re: Injectors & harness > > The injectors I just bought out of a sy really look like the ones I put in > the Buick GN fuel rails. > Bruce > > > Wait, there's a catch. If this has the same injector as used in the > > later 4.3l Vortech engine, it's got a different connector. > > Barry, if the injector looks like a bug and is buried in the center of > > a large, 2 piece manifold you can find similar parts in Astrovans and > > S-10s with the VIN W engine. > > Shannen > > > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > > > All GM TPI injectors use the same connector, as well as most ford. > > > Pep boys might even have them. > > > True Value does, but I don't have the number > > > Bruce > > > > > > > I'm looking for a couple of injectors & connectors from a Syclone ('91 > GMC > > > port injected 4.3) for setting up a test rig. Does any other vehicle > use > > > these port injectors & matching connectors? I'm not likely to find a > > > Syclone or Typhoon @xxx. > > > > Thanks - Barry > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 05:12:26 GMT From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Subject: Fish Carbs Same reason as the valve in block L head "Flat Head" reigned supreme for 40 odd years. Just because it is very good doesn't make it cheap - and to the vast majority of the automotive purchasers cheap is the only virtue. Never confuse good with cheap - or you will buy Compak Packard Bell Hewlett Packard Gateway Cyrix and AMD etc. Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:48:36 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Direct Injection - Stratified Gee Robert, if all these engines are so good, why aren't they used by anyone? Maybe they are in the same vault with the Fish carburetor. Gary Derian > Contrary to public myth, there actually is more than one stratified charge > design - but then anyone who was not blindly prejudiced would have know that. snip - -- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 23:08:27 -0700 From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" Subject: fuel line check valve reality check howdy. I am trying to find 2 'flapper' type, low threshold, fuel check valves for my 72 xj6, my thought is to tie both fuel tanks together with a one way valve in each line, then have that go to a 'T' then to the chev mechanical pump. (I have a Chevy eng in it and I want to remove the old original electric fuel pumps & related mess in the trunk.) an email to Earl's got me a $50.00 price per valve, not including the fittings. I called another place and got a price of $195.00 for a single electric shut off valve, (I briefly thought of using 2 of them). this is a low-tech daily driver, why are one way check valves & stuff so expensive ?? yikes ! is there some plain old ford/chev, one way check valve someplace ? thanks, Ted. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 23:14:50 -0700 From: Aaron Willis Subject: OT max economy, engine stress I have been trying the "floor-it-in-high" driving technique for a tank or two, and results appear promising, so far. My question for y'all is whether I ought to be concerned with what I have always been told is very hard on an engine - asking it to do a lot of work at very low RPM. My car doesn't really "like" to be lugged below about 2000 RPM, depending on load. It shakes and shudders if I load it down to heavily, although it does continue to pull. Am I beating the bottom end out of the engine? Also curious about heating the fuel to improve economy. Worth half a damn? Any words of encouragement or caution? Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 02:21:26 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Fish Carb.... not dead yet? Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > A friend of mine used to own one of the original fish carbs, and I've > had it apart and examined it. It was tried on a number of vehicles, > and the results were uniformly dissapointing..... and not for lack of > trying. I personally put the fish in the same category as the Borke > engine and many other wonderful technologies over the years that > didn't work......... An old friend of mine tells of having all sorts > of gas savers, magnets on gas lines, etc on his car, but of having to > remove them due to the inconvenience of having to stop every 50 miles > or so and siphon off surplus gas....... If you believe that one, > I've got some land in Florida you might be interested in ;-) H.W. You'd have better luck selling ocean front property in MT. Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 16:35:30 +0930 From: "Jackson, Trevor" Subject: 305 TPI and 808 ECM I'm currently trying to help a friend get a 305 TPI engine running, but without much success so far. I believe that the engine is from an 87 or 88 Camero auto (bought from a wrecked car), the wiring loom is from a manual Camero, and the ECM we have is from the Australian Holden Commodore (which from what I've read from the archives is the 1227808). I understand that the '808 ecm is more or less equivalent to the '165 ecm, and so we should be able to use it OK. The problem we have is with the Memcals. We have the Memcal that came with the ecm, which is a ASBX 9285 from the 307 engine that is used in the Commodores, and a Memcal from (we think) a 89 Camero with a 305 TPI (EPROM AGYM 3493). As yet we have been able to get the engine running using the 89 Camero Memcal, but it does run (not very well though) using the Memcal from the Commodore. We think that the Memcal from the 89 Camero is not working because we do not have a VATS signal to send to the ecm - I plan to build the circuit to emulate that so that we can see if that is the problem. If this is the problem, is the program/data from the AGYM 3493 EPROM suitable for this engine, or do I need to get hold of a different EPROM image and program up another EPROM? BTW, can anyone tell me what is the correct EPROM image for an 87/88 305 TPI engine? I've only just discovered these mailing lists and am slowly making my way through the archives. There is a mountain of info there - I just need to find the relevant pieces. regards Trevor Jackson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 04:38:46 -0400 (EDT) From: William T Wilson Subject: Re: OT max economy, engine stress On Mon, 3 May 1999, Aaron Willis wrote: > My question for y'all is whether I ought to be concerned with > what I have always been told is very hard on an engine - asking it to > do a lot of work at very low RPM. My car doesn't really "like" to be > lugged below about 2000 RPM, depending on load. It shakes and > shudders if I load it down to heavily, although it does continue to > pull. If your engine is shuddering, you should downshift. Some engines (most diesels, GM Lx1 series V8) will pull like mad more or less from idle. It really takes an effort to lug these engines. Fortunately, the Trans Am and, I think, Camaro of recent years have an "engine lugging solenoid" which forces you to shift into fourth gear at about 20-25 mph. :} The 3-cylinder engine in my Geo Metro has the world's strangest torque curve, and doesn't mind being lugged at all. For a small engine, this is highly unusual, IMO. Nevertheless, it's ready to go at 1500 RPM. This is, I'm sure, part of why it gets 45-50 MPG. :} > Am I beating the bottom end out of the engine? Well, you aren't doing it any good. Just don't lug the engine. It serves no purpose and, although most modern engines will put up with it (and a variety of other abuses) without too much complaint, you accomplish nothing by doing it, so don't. > Also curious about heating the fuel to improve economy. Worth > half a damn? Any words of encouragement or caution? Useless on fuel injected engine, IMO. May obtain some benefit on setup where fuel is vaporized. Fuel injection system atomizes fuel and hot fuel will do nothing except (marginally) increase risk of detonation. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #261 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".