DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, May 5 1999 Volume 04 : Number 264 In this issue: Re: ECU7 EFI project plans Re: Reverse Cooling? Homebrew additional injector controller - need suggestions! Re: ECU7 EFI project plans Re: atomization enhancement Re: Reverse Cooling? Anyone interested in a Haltech F3 w/ harness? Beginner's Book Re: Reverse Cooling? More Info:Inside the 99 Chrysler 300M ECM/TCM Re: valve job question Re: Reverse Cooling? Re: ECU7 EFI project plans Re: alternative engines Re: Reverse Cooling? Re: atomization enhancement Re: ECU7 EFI project plans Re: 305 TPI and 808 ECM Re: ECU7 EFI project plans Re: Reverse Cooling? Re: atomization enhancement Re: alternative engines Re: Reverse Cooling? Re: atomization enhancement Re: Jeep 4.0 Liter MPI (circa 1987-1991) Re: Beginner's Book Re: ECU7 EFI project plans See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:49:27 +1200 From: "Tony Bryant" Subject: Re: ECU7 EFI project plans Date sent: Tue, 04 May 1999 07:24:21 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Organization: Xephic Technology To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: ECU7 EFI project plans Send reply to: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > Unfortunately, it is expensive to have a small quantity of PC boards made > > (close to $500), so I've been unable to move ahead until I can either find > > If your design calls for a single sided or double sided PC board, there is a > product I saw at a tradeshow a year or two ago that you can plot your board using > a special tonor to contact paper, then rub the pcboard onto the copper clad > board, then etch. > > I'll see if I can find the brochure and get more information... I had saved it > because it would facilitate my being able to make one-offs. Since you posted the > pcboard routes on the ftp site... it might be a cheesy way of one making their > own boards. > I've had good luck using photo etching, from laser prints onto transparency. Just did a double-sided board with a .65mm spacing QFP on it. Turned out pretty good. Takes a fair bit of practice and experimentation to get it right. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 16:11:55 -0500 (CDT) From: Roger Heflin Subject: Re: Reverse Cooling? On Tue, 4 May 1999 eclark@xxx.com wrote: > On Tue, 4 May 1999, Roger Heflin wrote: > > > > > > > > > What did the cylinder temp problems cause to happen? > > > > Detonation. Something about the design of the LS1 allows it to still run > a high compression without the cylinder temps causing detonation. > I believe that something would be a Aluminum block. Roger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 17:44:17 -0400 From: "Askren, David" Subject: Homebrew additional injector controller - need suggestions! I am attempting to design a build an additional injector controller to add 2 additional injectors to my 1992 Ford Probe GT. The car has the Mazda 2.2L Turbo engine. I would like to use a map sensor that could support 21 psi, so a 2.5 bar map would be ideal, correct? Or should I use a 3 bar? Does the 3 bar map support 1.5 or 2 bar above atmospheric? What does a 3 bar MAP read at 0 psi? Is it 2.5 volts? Should my controller fire the injectors simultaneously on each cylinder fire (they will be in the intake tract between the intercooler and throttle body)? I would like to be able to set the boost level at which the injectors begin to fire, say 9 psi, and have them ramp up the duty cycle untill 21 psi, my desired max boost level. They will fire based a signal from the cam position sensor. Any idea what the output of the CPS looks like? From what I can imagine, I shouldn't need to use a processor, as discrete should work fine. I will draw it up and put it on a page tommorow. Suggestions very welcome! Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 00:05:28 +0200 From: "Nils Björkman" Subject: Re: ECU7 EFI project plans Hi Is it a complicated board with a lot of SMALL tracks, a lot of vias etc. Is it possible to use a doublesided pcb whitout thruplating (you have to solder some tracks on componentside) ? I have equipment to make souch pcb´s (no equipment to make throuplating). I haven´t or-cad. Mybe I can help you to make a couple of samples if you can use the abow type. In that case I need the layout in ex. PDF format or similar. (1:1 or other scale is ok) Nils Al Lipper skrev: > Marc, it is good to hear of your interest, as well as your experience with > th 80C552. It sounds like you've done some nice work with it. At the > present time, we have a relatively final version of the ECU7 schematic > (newer than the one on the web), as well as a completed PC board layout. > Unfortunately, it is expensive to have a small quantity of PC boards made > (close to $500), so I've been unable to move ahead until I can either find > a cheaper way to have them made, or find enough people to split the cost. > I'm planning to post the most recent version of ECU7 to the web, as soon as > I can get some more web space. The schematic and PCB were done with OrCAD > 386+, so if you have compatible software, I'd be happy to e-mail you the > original source files. > > We've been looking for someone with 80C552 experience for a while, so > hearing from you is very fortuitous. Even better, it sounds like you've > already done some of what we need. The first thing is the writing of a > .HEX loader that will allow an intel .HEX file received over the serial > port to be loaded into the 5v flash memory. The second thing is for the > old assembly routines (EFI02.ASM) that worked on ECU6, running on the Intel > 80C51GB to be converted to use the 552. The 80C51GB used PCA's where the > 552 has its own capture/compare timers. Also, the A/D converter read > routines need adaptation. It's really a rather simple file, and hopefully > the documentation is clear. Once we can get one of these built and > working, I expect progress can be swift. > > Thanks for all of your help, Marc - it's good to have you on the project. > > Al > efi@xxx.org > > At 09:57 PM 5/3/99 +0200, you wrote: > >Hi All, > > > >With interest I read your page about your DIY-EFI. I was reading the > >revision 7 files and noticed you will be using the 80C552. Although I do not > >think these are best for EFI, I do think they will work well. I have made my > >own 80C552 board and it has some nice features. Like flash programming (on > >board), downloading .HEX files to the board for execution (without burning > >them in flash). I am very interested in EFI and have quite some knowledge in > >assembler programming the 80C552. I would be very interested in cooperating > >with you. If you are also interested, can you please mail me back with the > >status of revision 7 and a short to-do list ? > > > >Thanks in advance and keep up the good work > > > >Marc > >marc@xxx.nl > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:12:43 +0200 (MDT) From: Fredrik Skog Subject: Re: atomization enhancement Actually the numbers I have heard are used in the common-rail diesels are 800-1400 bars depending on make.... A lot of pressure that is for sure. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Student at the Department of Computing Science Umeå University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg@xxx.se Taffelstråket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Umeå Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 Living and dying laughing and crying Once you have seen it you will never be the same Life in the fast lane is just how it seems Hard and it is heavy dirty and mean /MetallicA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:35:17 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Reverse Cooling? The 6.0 liter version for trucks has an iron block. I think reverse cooling is only a minor improvement compared to just a basically well designed water flow path. Gary Derian > > > > > > What did the cylinder temp problems cause to happen? > > > > > > > Detonation. Something about the design of the LS1 allows it to still run > > a high compression without the cylinder temps causing detonation. > > > > I believe that something would be a Aluminum block. > > Roger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:03:30 -0500 From: "Eddie Pylant" Subject: Anyone interested in a Haltech F3 w/ harness? I've got one off my last project car that I no longer need- It's complete sans TPS, coolant temp, and intake air temp sensors, and the harness accommodates 8 injectors. I don't know what these things go for, but if your interested, email me at epylant@xxx. Eddie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 May 99 11:49:48 +1200 From: Ed Kunath Subject: Beginner's Book Need an introductory book or two for automotive FI. Don't know a thing. I am a mech. engineer so I can handle the tech stuff. Which books do I buy first? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 19:14:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Roger Heflin Subject: Re: Reverse Cooling? On Tue, 4 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > The 6.0 liter version for trucks has an iron block. I think reverse cooling > is only a minor improvement compared to just a basically well designed water > flow path. > Do the trucks with the iron blocks have the same compression or did GM change it? Roger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:27:27 EDT From: AL8001@xxx.com Subject: More Info:Inside the 99 Chrysler 300M ECM/TCM Looked at more of the trans computer today. It is apparent that IC numbers in the form of 4XXXXXX are internal Chrysler, this is in keeping with Chryslers normal parts numbering system. Trans Computer PN 04606936AD It also has a serial number. Potted in clear/amber silicone. Device purpose Memory PN M28F102-150XK3 Brand ST Package Square, pins on all sides PN says it is a PLCC44 package, but it is a soldered through hole. Device purpose CPU PN SC424007MFC16 Brand Motorolla Package Square, pins on all sides ~110 total Device Purpose Unknown PN 4632863 G22DH9832 Brand ST Package Square, 44 pin through hole ~ 10 pins connect directly to the CPU Device purpose Unknown PN 4632863 M91H023 Brand ST Package Square, 28 pins through hole More info as becomes available Harold ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 02:51:33 +0200 From: "Espen Hilde" Subject: Re: valve job question Use a simple water injection into the engine a while before teardown.It will clean the carbon away. > > Heh. No, that's different, because the carbon deposits don't affect the > > operation of the engine. Really. Unless there's so much of it that it > > causes dieseling. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 21:05:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank F Parker Subject: Re: Reverse Cooling? > The LT1 was the first production reverse cooling from GM. The problem was > getting the air out. Evans ran a Trans-Am car with reverse cooling for a > few years. I think that work led GM to reverse cool the LT1. > Yes, and I was a data engineer on a TranaAm car that was used for a number of tests. It works well BUT you need a higher flow pump, radiator capable of handling the higher flows etc. The REAL reason GM quit using reverse cooling is the lawsuit that Evans started against GM for using reverse cooling and not honoring his patents. GM lawers looked at it and said: lets limit our liability in case we lose and not make any more cars with reverse cooling. Last time I talked to Evans, suit still was pending. regards, frank parker ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 21:43:03 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: ECU7 EFI project plans > I've had good luck using photo etching, from laser prints onto > transparency. Just did a double-sided board with a .65mm spacing > QFP on it. Turned out pretty good. Takes a fair bit of practice and > experimentation to get it right. never tried photo etching myself... paid others to do it, but my work has always been simpler in nature therefore the "radio shack" or equivilent kits have been good enough, using three trays (acid, base, and water wash), sorta like photography :) Can you enlighten me a little bit? I'd love to investigate this avenue more. - --- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology "Leadership in IT" Bridgeport, CT 06606 Web: http://www.xephic.dynip.com Voice: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 20:34:06 -0700 From: rr Subject: Re: alternative engines Now Bruce, see what you've gone and done... I've got miller all over the keyboard, BobR... - ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: alternative engines Ex-Wife had anti-gravity Broom 10+ years ago. Grumpy (Pardon, lack of efi content) > >Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. > >Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > > > That's what they have been saying about fusion power for the last 30 > years or so.... > > Soren > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 21:56:53 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Reverse Cooling? I misspoke, all truck versions have iron blocks. The 6000 has iron heads, also. The 4800 has 9.6:1, the 5300 has 9.5:1 and the 6000 has 9.4:1. All use 87 octane. The carryover 4300 V-6 has 9.2:1. Gary Derian > > > On Tue, 4 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > > > The 6.0 liter version for trucks has an iron block. I think reverse cooling > > is only a minor improvement compared to just a basically well designed water > > flow path. > > > > Do the trucks with the iron blocks have the same compression or did GM > change it? > > Roger ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 19:33:33 -0700 From: "Howard Wilkinson" Subject: Re: atomization enhancement Fredrik: Please tell me which common rail diesels use this kind of pressure so I can be sure to avoid them ;-)......... The only common rail diesels I am familiar with are the Cummins PT and the Detroit engines.... They use nowhere near this kind of pressure. I strongly doubt that the Ford Powerstroke uses much rail pressure either. H.W. - -----Original Message----- From: Fredrik Skog To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 5:07 PM Subject: Re: atomization enhancement Actually the numbers I have heard are used in the common-rail diesels are 800-1400 bars depending on make.... A lot of pressure that is for sure. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - -------- Student at the Department of Computing Science Umeå University Fredrik Skog E-mail: c95fsg@xxx.se Taffelstråket 51 WWW: http://www.acc.umu.se/~skog 903 53 Umeå Phone: +46-(0)90-136365 Mobile: +46-(0)70-3041729 Living and dying laughing and crying Once you have seen it you will never be the same Life in the fast lane is just how it seems Hard and it is heavy dirty and mean /MetallicA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 19:39:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Orin Eman Subject: Re: ECU7 EFI project plans > > I've had good luck using photo etching, from laser prints onto > > transparency. Just did a double-sided board with a .65mm spacing > > QFP on it. Turned out pretty good. Takes a fair bit of practice and > > experimentation to get it right. > never tried photo etching myself... paid others to do it, but my work has always been > simpler in nature therefore the "radio shack" or equivilent kits have been good enough, > using three trays (acid, base, and water wash), sorta like photography :) > Can you enlighten me a little bit? I'd love to investigate this avenue more. Take a look at: http://www.mgchemicals.com/P2_Photochem.html This is the system I use, but I just bought their 'UV' tube, not the fitting and flimsy stand. The local prices I pay for the boards aren't cheap, but it's just too convenient. I don't clean the resist off the board before soldering - it stops oxidisation of the copper nicely. Once the board is built, isopropyl alcohol will remove both the flux and resist. No need for fancy solvents. Orin. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:30:02 +1000 From: "Matt Tomlins" Subject: Re: 305 TPI and 808 ECM Trevor, The 165 is the same as an 808 apart from having 1 extra chip to perform high speed serial communications. The Camaro application is a Mass Air Flow system, whereas the Commodore is MAP based. If you try to run the Camaro on the ASBX calibration, it will run, but in limp home mode. You need to use a MAP sensor for it to run properly. If you want to run the Camaro calibration, you will need to disable the VATS. This can be done via an external circuit, or disabled in the calibration (Much tidier solution). All of this informaion is in the DIY_EFI archeives. Having said all that, I have run a mates Camaro on an ASBX memcal. It ran quite well, but needed some modifications to the idle control area. If you need any more help, let me know Cheers Matt Tomlins - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jackson, Trevor To: Sent: Tuesday, 4 May 1999 5:05 Subject: 305 TPI and 808 ECM > I'm currently trying to help a friend get a 305 TPI engine running, but > without much success so far. I believe that the engine is from an 87 or 88 > Camero auto (bought from a wrecked car), the wiring loom is from a manual > Camero, and the ECM we have is from the Australian Holden Commodore (which > from what I've read from the archives is the 1227808). > > I understand that the '808 ecm is more or less equivalent to the '165 ecm, > and so we should be able to use it OK. The problem we have is with the > Memcals. We have the Memcal that came with the ecm, which is a ASBX 9285 > from the 307 engine that is used in the Commodores, and a Memcal from (we > think) a 89 Camero with a 305 TPI (EPROM AGYM 3493). > > As yet we have been able to get the engine running using the 89 Camero > Memcal, but it does run (not very well though) using the Memcal from the > Commodore. > > We think that the Memcal from the 89 Camero is not working because we do not > have a VATS signal to send to the ecm - I plan to build the circuit to > emulate that so that we can see if that is the problem. If this is the > problem, is the program/data from the AGYM 3493 EPROM suitable for this > engine, or do I need to get hold of a different EPROM image and program up > another EPROM? > > BTW, can anyone tell me what is the correct EPROM image for an 87/88 305 TPI > engine? > > I've only just discovered these mailing lists and am slowly making my way > through the archives. There is a mountain of info there - I just need to > find the relevant pieces. > > regards > > Trevor Jackson > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 14:45:17 +1200 From: "Tony Bryant" Subject: Re: ECU7 EFI project plans > > I've had good luck using photo etching, from laser prints onto > > transparency. Just did a double-sided board with a .65mm spacing > > QFP on it. Turned out pretty good. Takes a fair bit of practice and > > experimentation to get it right. > > never tried photo etching myself... paid others to do it, but my work has always been > simpler in nature therefore the "radio shack" or equivilent kits have been good enough, > using three trays (acid, base, and water wash), sorta like photography :) > You need a spray can of positive photoresist. Radio shack probably has it. You spray it on the clean board (two light coats). Cure it for 20 mins at about 140F (oven set as low as possible is good). Align your laser printed transparency on the board. Make sure the toner side is down or you loose the details. Sheet of picture frame glass over the top to press it down flat. Expose 4 inches under a flourescent tube for 30-60mins per side. UV lights or sunlight would be quicker. Develop in _very_ weak NaOH solution (1 tblsp per quart), until shiny copper shows through. Takes about 2-4 mins. Rinse and Etch using FeCl or amonnium persulfate. Rinse and clean resist off with alcohol or elbow grease. Not quick, but it works with practice. Getting to know how much light, developer strength and duration takes some experience. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:45:19 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Reverse Cooling? >> The LT1 was the first production reverse cooling from GM. The problem was >> getting the air out. Evans ran a Trans-Am car with reverse cooling for a >> few years. I think that work led GM to reverse cool the LT1. >> >Yes, and I was a data engineer on a TranaAm car that was used for a >number of tests. It works well BUT you need a higher flow pump, radiator >capable of handling the higher flows etc. > >The REAL reason GM quit using reverse cooling is the lawsuit that Evans >started against GM for using reverse cooling and not honoring his >patents. GM lawers looked at it and said: lets limit our liability in >case we lose and not make any more cars with reverse cooling. Last time >I talked to Evans, suit still was pending. Didn't Smokey do some work with reverse cooling before Evans did?? And how did the patent office ever give a patent on it if they looked at the coolant flow path on, say, an Alfa four?? Regards, Greg > >regards, > >frank parker ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 21:46:49 -0500 From: "Jennifer and Brock Fraser" Subject: Re: atomization enhancement > I find that number hard to believe if my conversion figure is > correct 1 bar = 14.5 PSI (rounded). 26100 PSI........ You won't > catch me working around one of those systems... a leak could easily be > fatal! It that the system on Caterpillar I've heard about where a > cracked line can cut put out a fuel stream that will cut steel. > The Ford "Powerstroke" I've been told is a single rail system > which has an oil pressure driven injector which is computer triggered. > An extra oil pump supplies pressure to the injectors which use the oil > pressure to create high injection pressures. I've never worked on the > power stroke..... only the old 6.9 & 7.2 engines which used an > ordinary rotary pump. New injectors for the Powerstroke are $500.00 > each according to the local Ford people.... I suppose $4k for a set of > injectors isn't so bad if you can afford a $40K pickup. Ahhh... It's a special day when the efi hot-rod discussion group starts talking about Diesel combustion and fuel systems. You CAN believe your ears here, folks. Common rail (this is what it's usually called, rather than "single rail") fuel systems can go as high as 1800 BAR (yes, that's around 26,500 psi!). An analogy was drawn by somebody else to the typical gasoline fuel injection system on most automobiles, and yes, it's the same idea. The extremely high pressures are commonly generated by a piston pump running at engine speed. And, as you guessed, the lines and rail have to be very beefy material. These injectors aren't cheap. Imagine an injector (typically 4-8 holes) that can withstand that pressure, and still react quicker than an automotive fuel injector. I've often wondered what would happen if you tried to squirt gasoline at these pressures. I'm not enough of a chemistry type to know how gasoline reacts at extremely high pressures. Even the lowest pressure Diesel systems used today have roughly 600 BAR operating pressures. Other designs you may have seen are "unit injectors" or "unit pumps". Unit injectors are either hydraulically assisted and electronically actuated (HEUI) or they are cam assisted and electronically actuated (EUI). Either way, the fuel is pressurized right at the injector as opposed to the common rail that has a supply pump that is commonly gear driven off the gear drive. Unit pumps are individual pumps, one for each cylinder, that are cam driven. It's much like EUI, but the pump is seperate from the injector and connected by a line. I'm sure that's more than you wanted to know about modern Diesel fuel systems. Now somebody try to postulate what would happen if you used one of these with gasoline... I'm a high-speed gas engine fan (at heart), but some days I can't help but smile when I see 850 lb-ft of torque at 1300 RPM out of 6.4L on 30 pounds of boost. Heck, 280HP at 2300RPM is no slouch, either. - -Brock ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:50:34 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: alternative engines Hey, just think about what would have happened if I mentioned Mommy in law. She had the special slippers to go along with the broom Grumpy > Now Bruce, see what you've gone and done... I've > got miller all over the keyboard, > BobR... > Subject: Re: alternative engines > Ex-Wife had anti-gravity Broom 10+ years ago. > Grumpy > (Pardon, lack of efi content) > > >Univ. of Alabamba is working on a anti-gravity car. > > >Says could be ready within 10 yrs. > > That's what they have been saying about fusion power for the last 30 > > years or so.... > > Soren ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:01:47 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Reverse Cooling? - ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Hermann To: Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 10:45 PM Subject: Re: Reverse Cooling? Ya but Smoke didn't patent it, as far as I've heard. There was a Circle track mag explaining it years ago..... Grumpy > >> The LT1 was the first production reverse cooling from GM. The problem was > >> getting the air out. Evans ran a Trans-Am car with reverse cooling for a > >> few years. I think that work led GM to reverse cool the LT1. > >> > >Yes, and I was a data engineer on a TranaAm car that was used for a > >number of tests. It works well BUT you need a higher flow pump, radiator > >capable of handling the higher flows etc. > > > >The REAL reason GM quit using reverse cooling is the lawsuit that Evans > >started against GM for using reverse cooling and not honoring his > >patents. GM lawers looked at it and said: lets limit our liability in > >case we lose and not make any more cars with reverse cooling. Last time > >I talked to Evans, suit still was pending. > > Didn't Smokey do some work with reverse cooling before Evans did?? > > And how did the patent office ever give a patent on it if they looked at > the coolant flow path on, say, an Alfa four?? > > Regards, Greg > > > >regards, > > > >frank parker > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:08:54 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: atomization enhancement I was wondering about now if that many folks could make the same error, well, I'll let it be now. Thanks Brock Bruce > > I find that number hard to believe if my conversion figure is > > correct 1 bar = 14.5 PSI (rounded). 26100 PSI........ You won't > > catch me working around one of those systems... a leak could easily be > > fatal! It that the system on Caterpillar I've heard about where a > > cracked line can cut put out a fuel stream that will cut steel. > > The Ford "Powerstroke" I've been told is a single rail system > > which has an oil pressure driven injector which is computer triggered. > > An extra oil pump supplies pressure to the injectors which use the oil > > pressure to create high injection pressures. I've never worked on the > > power stroke..... only the old 6.9 & 7.2 engines which used an > > ordinary rotary pump. New injectors for the Powerstroke are $500.00 > > each according to the local Ford people.... I suppose $4k for a set of > > injectors isn't so bad if you can afford a $40K pickup. > > Ahhh... It's a special day when the efi hot-rod discussion group starts > talking about Diesel combustion and fuel systems. > > You CAN believe your ears here, folks. Common rail (this is what it's > usually called, rather than "single rail") fuel systems can go as high as > 1800 BAR (yes, that's around 26,500 psi!). An analogy was drawn by somebody > else to the typical gasoline fuel injection system on most automobiles, and > yes, it's the same idea. > > The extremely high pressures are commonly generated by a piston pump running > at engine speed. And, as you guessed, the lines and rail have to be very > beefy material. These injectors aren't cheap. Imagine an injector > (typically 4-8 holes) that can withstand that pressure, and still react > quicker than an automotive fuel injector. > > I've often wondered what would happen if you tried to squirt gasoline at > these pressures. I'm not enough of a chemistry type to know how gasoline > reacts at extremely high pressures. > > Even the lowest pressure Diesel systems used today have roughly 600 BAR > operating pressures. > > Other designs you may have seen are "unit injectors" or "unit pumps". Unit > injectors are either hydraulically assisted and electronically actuated > (HEUI) or they are cam assisted and electronically actuated (EUI). Either > way, the fuel is pressurized right at the injector as opposed to the common > rail that has a supply pump that is commonly gear driven off the gear drive. > Unit pumps are individual pumps, one for each cylinder, that are cam driven. > It's much like EUI, but the pump is seperate from the injector and connected > by a line. > > I'm sure that's more than you wanted to know about modern Diesel fuel > systems. Now somebody try to postulate what would happen if you used one of > these with gasoline... > > I'm a high-speed gas engine fan (at heart), but some days I can't help but > smile when I see 850 lb-ft of torque at 1300 RPM out of 6.4L on 30 pounds of > boost. Heck, 280HP at 2300RPM is no slouch, either. > > -Brock > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 21:03:23 -0700 From: "Peter Fenske" Subject: Re: Jeep 4.0 Liter MPI (circa 1987-1991) Hi Jim I seem to remember a SAE article on the RENIX ecm.. Try a library that carries SAE archives gl:peter ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 21:52:01 -0700 From: "Fran and Bud" Subject: Re: Beginner's Book I believe that "Fuel Injection - Installation, Performance Tuning, Modifications by Jeff Hartman, (Motorbooks International) would be a good starting point. I also like Automotive Fuel Injection Systems by Jan P. Norbye, (also Motorbooks International) Then this GM Training book is a winner. (copied from an earlier DIY-EFI post) >From: spence family >Subject: DIY-EFI References >"GM Fuel Injection Diagnosis" GM training publication 16009.10-6 (cost >$25)is a good reference for GM EFI information. This is a GM factory >training manual and is available to the public. >Order from: >MSX International >1425 Pacific Dr. >>Auburn Hills, MI 48326 >Phone (800) 393-4831 >Fax (248)377-1510 >The book was updated in 1998 so it covers the latest systems as well as >early TBI. This book has lots of "Good Stuff" and is specific to GM. >Includes sensor calibrations, specific engine information, theory of >operations, DIS systems, and actual numbers!. 200 pages of stuff! >Would be very helpful for DIY EFI's, or just understanding the way GM >does it. >They will send you a catalog for free! There are many other interesting >titles. They have both training manuals and instructor's guides for >each title.. I got the manual... All are in the $20 range. Good reading! Bud - ---------- >From: Ed Kunath >To: >Subject: Beginner's Book >Date: Tue, May 4, 1999, 4:49 PM > >Need an introductory book or two for automotive FI. Don't know a thing. >I am a mech. engineer so I can handle the tech stuff. Which books do I >buy first? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 22:27:44 -0700 (PDT) From: thergen@xxx.net Subject: Re: ECU7 EFI project plans Check the "Toner Transfer System" from DynaArt Designs http://www.dynaart.com/E.DTF1.html "This specially coated paper is run through any laser printer, (or photocopier), like a regular piece of paper. ... The paper comes fully documented with everything you need to know to make PCB's immediately with just the use of a house-hold iron." I haven't tried it myself. Tom On Tue, 4 May 1999, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > Unfortunately, it is expensive to have a small quantity of PC boards made > > (close to $500), so I've been unable to move ahead until I can either find > > If your design calls for a single sided or double sided PC board, there is a > product I saw at a tradeshow a year or two ago that you can plot your board using > a special tonor to contact paper, then rub the pcboard onto the copper clad > board, then etch. > > I'll see if I can find the brochure and get more information... I had saved it > because it would facilitate my being able to make one-offs. Since you posted the > pcboard routes on the ftp site... it might be a cheesy way of one making their > own boards. > > I'll see what I can dig up. > > --- > > Frederic Breitwieser > > Xephic Technology > "Leadership in IT" > Bridgeport, CT 06606 > > Web: http://www.xephic.dynip.com > Voice: (203) 372-2707 > Fax: (603) 372-1147 > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #264 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".