DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, May 11 1999 Volume 04 : Number 276 In this issue: Re: L-jetronic mods Fw: L-jetronic mods Re: L-jetronic mods Misc Electronics Re: Misc Electronics Re: Misc Electronics Re: alternative engines, WARPED RE: Rpm Independence. Re: Misc Electronics Eprom Programer Re: Misc Electronics Re: RPM independence Re: Eprom Programer Re: alternative engines, WARPED Re: Misc Electronics Re: Rpm Independence. Re: alternative engines, WARPED Re: alternative engines, WARPED Re: alternative engines, WARPED Re:Just out shopping for injectors Re: alternative engines, WARPED Re: Eprom Programer Re: Misc Electronics Re: Misc Electronics Re: alternative engines, WARPED testing injectors Re: Eprom Programer Re: L-jetronic mods Re: alternative engines, WARPED Honda Vtec ECU Re: testing injectors See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 05:31:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Nahuel Garavaglia Subject: Re: L-jetronic mods Im looking for info about modify a L-jetronic equiped on a datsun, i read you message and find this: "There is a $15 prom editor at the syty home page.." whats the address? === Nahuel Garavaglia ngarav@xxx.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:19:50 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Fw: L-jetronic mods A foward from a lister Grumpy > Is the fuel pump up to the job? What is it's output vs. head presure > graph look like? As boost comes on and presure in the intake rises the > pump may not be able to supply enough fuel and you're running lean which > is causing your detonation problem. What are the reading from your O2 > sensor when under boost but not WOT? Use a digital multimeter for > this...you probably already know that however. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:26:43 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: L-jetronic mods > Im looking for info about modify a L-jetronic equiped on a datsun, i > read you message and find this: > "There is a $15 prom editor at the syty home page.." > whats the address? http://syty@xxx. Grumpy > === > Nahuel Garavaglia > > ngarav@xxx.com > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:38:31 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Misc Electronics How, or is there a safe way to "open" the guts of an EPROM, that is so that a ribbon cable can be soldiered to it, for using a remote prom/emulator. After a 3 month wait, I got a Radio Shack, PC/laptop 2 Oscilloscope probe (They had run out at the master distribution center). For the EEs probably it has little to offer but, least for me, I got to see what the ALDL looks like.. One big feature is that you can pick what colors contrast best for you. So us ol timers can see what going on. On a side note, is there enough interest for me to put together some notes on an ecm bench?. I got some digitial photos, to go along with it, just don't want to clutter the DIY stuff if not many are interested. Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:51:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Roger Heflin Subject: Re: Misc Electronics On Tue, 11 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > How, or is there a safe way to "open" the guts of an EPROM, that is so that > a ribbon cable can be soldiered to it, for using a remote prom/emulator. > If you mean actually remove the eprom lid, probably there is a safe way, but only in a clean room. Also the connections are so small you have no chance of actually soldering anything to it with any equipment you have. You can get a device to piggy back on to the chip and have the ribbon cable attach to that. You you could put something between the eprom and the socket to tap off the pins (if you have room). Roger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:51:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Roger Heflin Subject: Re: Misc Electronics On Tue, 11 May 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > How, or is there a safe way to "open" the guts of an EPROM, that is so that > a ribbon cable can be soldiered to it, for using a remote prom/emulator. > If you mean actually remove the eprom lid, probably there is a safe way, but only in a clean room. Also the connections are so small you have no chance of actually soldering anything to it with any equipment you have. You can get a device to piggy back on to the chip and have the ribbon cable attach to that. You you could put something between the eprom and the socket to tap off the pins (if you have room). Roger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:09:41 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED Greg Hermann wrote: > >> > >> Back to FI....Am about to rebuild a VACUUM 750 Holley, any tips? > >> > >> LATER! > >> > >> Todd....!! > > > >Dig a deep hole, insert the Holley, re install dirt. > >Is that deep enough? > >Shannen > > But--I LIKE 3310's!! > > Greg Gol durn leak prone, fragile, empty tank inducing things. They're not my favorite metered leak. If you could recover the time you've spent overhauling and tuning Holleys, how much would you have? Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:28:57 GMT From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Subject: RE: Rpm Independence. Once upon a time there was something known as a binary scale. Lets see 1 bit = 0 or 1, two bits 0, 1,2,3 and so on until we have 8,9, or 10 or whatever bits. Now if I were doing this, the input would come from MAF and whatever and a binary number would be generated. This would then be the index into a table where the output would be the pulse width. BUT, not being enamored with the swiss army knife approach where one tool fits all, I would not use a single injector per cylinder or whatever. If the upper bit was connected to a solenoid valve that simple opened a calibrated jet that was 50% of the flow, I have just doubled the dynamic range of the "injector" without getting crazy. Now if you were binary enlightened, you might use a number of these jets, driven off output bits of your table such that except for a very small amount of variable fuel to do final trimming, everything is on fixed jets. Of course there would be no advantage to run these fixed jets say at 100 psi off a bosch pump would there? And no advantage to staging them so that the higher the flow, the further up the manifold runner they are as to allow maximum cooling of the charge. And no advantage to these jets being smaller than your little finger. And if this was a throttle body, totally eliminating the pulse width modulated injector itself by using a lambda valve as a high speed solenoid to turn on or off the finest jets. Calculating the flow is simple math since the orifice is fixed and the pressure is fixed. Also can vary the number of jets in each step. 8 "jets" generate 256 steps - probably far finer than a real engine needs, but not near enough to satisfy the anally retentive who believe that precision to 10 decimal points is required to run an engine. But silly me remembers that the basic advantage of pulsed injectors is to improve the idle to ~2500 rpm emissions. And CIS type thinking on the Bosch System used in some models by Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc was really crappy at idle, had no power, was balky and all screwed up, couldn't accelerate or run smooth - *** NOT***. And since the whole damn thing is fixed jets driven off a table - either on or off, someone who is not chemically challenged might just arrange for some of these jets to be connected to fuels other than gasoline - say methanal with a taste of nitromethane - or staged with supplementary gaseous induction like NOS. But that's not going to happen to anyone who loves the swiss army knife approach. Twist your sister and think about it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:13:30 -0700 From: goflo@xxx.net Subject: Re: Misc Electronics If I understand what you want to do, look at "DIP component headers". Or use a "machined pin" DIP socket, cheaper, and solder the wires into the pin receivers. Just don't melt the socket doing it. :) If you've got a current Mouser catalog see pages 162-172. If not 800-346-6873 Jack Bruce Plecan wrote: > > How, or is there a safe way to "open" the guts of an EPROM, that is so that > a ribbon cable can be soldiered to it, for using a remote prom/emulator. > > After a 3 month wait, I got a Radio Shack, PC/laptop 2 Oscilloscope probe > (They had run out at the master distribution center). > For the EEs probably it has little to offer but, least for me, I got to see > what the ALDL looks like.. > One big feature is that you can pick what colors contrast best for you. > So us ol timers can see what going on. > On a side note, is there enough interest for me to put together some > notes on an ecm bench?. I got some digitial photos, to go along with it, > just don't want to clutter the DIY stuff if not many are interested. > Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:19:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Ezekiel Holliday Subject: Eprom Programer I'm currently working on designing an eprom programer so that I can make custom proms for my future fuel injection project. It currently will suppor 2732, 2764, 27C64, 27C256, 27C512 and a few more standard eproms. Does anyone have any suggestion for devices that it should support. Also does anyone have the sepcs for programing a 2532. I'll post the design on the web when I get done with it. I hope to keep the cost of building the device to below $50. Zeke Holliday ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:52:38 -0500 From: steve ravet Subject: Re: Misc Electronics Digikey has ribbon cables with DIP sockets at one or both ends, from AMP. Have a look in their catalog, near the beginning of section "A" where the ribbon cables are. No assembly required. - --steve goflo@xxx.net wrote: > > If I understand what you want to do, look at "DIP component headers". > Or use a "machined pin" DIP socket, cheaper, and solder the wires > into the pin receivers. Just don't melt the socket doing it. :) > > If you've got a current Mouser catalog see pages 162-172. > If not 800-346-6873 > > Jack > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > How, or is there a safe way to "open" the guts of an EPROM, that is so that > > a ribbon cable can be soldiered to it, for using a remote prom/emulator. > > > > After a 3 month wait, I got a Radio Shack, PC/laptop 2 Oscilloscope probe > > (They had run out at the master distribution center). > > For the EEs probably it has little to offer but, least for me, I got to see > > what the ALDL looks like.. > > One big feature is that you can pick what colors contrast best for you. > > So us ol timers can see what going on. > > On a side note, is there enough interest for me to put together some > > notes on an ecm bench?. I got some digitial photos, to go along with it, > > just don't want to clutter the DIY stuff if not many are interested. > > Bruce - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:53:47 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: RPM independence Hello Howard, your theory is TOTALLY GREAT and acceptable, and a system has alread ybeen created, produced, and marketed, and it's gone over wiht a pretty good fine tooth comb within on eof the laterChecvy Hi po mags dealing with all of the diff types, makes, and brands of FI for just about any type engine! Will get the name of the mag, I know you already know about the mag, just maybe not about the article(s) within this specific issue? But the basic function of the type system I believe you are referring to is based upon the use of formulas instead of tables... I think you are right in line witht the way this REALLY advanced system is designed to function! Will post details later, (mag's at home)! LATER! Todd....!! Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > I have given more than a little thought to the possibility of an EFI > system that operated completely independently of engine RPM. The idea > being that as the injectors are batch fired anyway, the timing is > irrelevant so long as the injectors fire at engine RPM or more. > Such a system could be almost entirely MAF based. The injectors > would begin at a very short pulse width, and simply increase pulse > rate up to a set pulse rate where width would be increased thereafter. > Such a system could be operated based on mathematical formulae rather > than on look up tables. A simple equation based on ECT could modify > the result for cold operation, and a TPS modifier would give > accelerator pump effect. Map should not be necessary as air density > should directly effect MAF output. An O2 loop would handle minor > dicrepancies. > A lot of the complexity of the common EFI systems comes from the > desire to fire the injectors once per revolution. Because of RPM > dependence, the MAP, MAF, & TPS outputs are meaningful only in the > context of RPM. Total fuel delivery per unit time is only directly > related to MAF.... It is not closely related to RPM, Throttle > Position, or Vacuum individually as it is to MAF. The MAF tells us > how much fuel we must deliver per unit time, but the system must then > work out the pulse rate based on RPM, and pulse width for that rate to > achieve the desired delivery per unit time. > If we know that x amount of fuel is delivered at Y pulse width per > pulse, then it becomes a simple matter to determine how many pulses > per unit time are required to deliver that amount of fuel. At some > point pulse rate reaches a max practical limit, and at that point > pulse rate can become constant, and pulse width may be modified above > that point to control fuel delivery. The fewer factors you are > changing the simple the program becomes. > Perhaps this is a simple minded vew of the process, but then I'm a > simple minded sort of guy.... I am of the "KISS" school of thought. > H.W. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 11:07:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Andre Grandi Subject: Re: Eprom Programer How about support for the AMD29F200AB prom? andre - --- Ezekiel Holliday wrote: > I'm currently working on designing an eprom programer so that I can make > custom proms for my future fuel injection project. It currently will > suppor 2732, 2764, 27C64, 27C256, 27C512 and a few more standard eproms. > Does anyone have any suggestion for devices that it should support. Also > does anyone have the sepcs for programing a 2532. I'll post the design on > the web when I get done with it. I hope to keep the cost of building the > device to below $50. > > Zeke Holliday > > > > === Andre _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 14:57:15 -0400 From: Teller.John@xxx.com Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED Shannen wrote: >> But--I LIKE 3310's!! >> >> Greg > >Gol durn leak prone, fragile, empty tank inducing things. They're not >my favorite metered leak. >If you could recover the time you've spent overhauling and tuning >Holleys, how much would you have? >Shannen About the same time you may have spent overhauling Quadrajets - talk about empty tank inducing things! - --- John T. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 15:00:50 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Misc Electronics I just mailed the photos off to Steve, and have about half the text written. So in the next few days, it should be at the FTP at 332. There no staged photos meaning that is just the way it is. Neighbor showed up, with camera, and took photos, and that was that. The ruler was supposed to be a reference, but well, that's the way it wound up. I was switching from one ecm to the other, and even the diacom LT was unplugged. Cheers Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 12:55:12 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Rpm Independence. Robert, I believe you've opened a WHOLE nother can o worms here bud... I like your thinkin! Keep it coming mang, I'm being enlightened, you're opennin my mind man, I appreciate your intellegence and thought provokin thoughts and insights and theorys!! I believe your view is only applicable towards the TBI not the sequential port injection, correct? Thanks again! LATER! Todd....!! - ----------- Robert Harris wrote: > > Once upon a time there was something known as a binary scale. Lets see 1 bit > = 0 or 1, two bits 0, 1,2,3 and so on until we have 8,9, or 10 or whatever > bits. > > Now if I were doing this, the input would come from MAF and whatever and a > binary number would be generated. This would then be the index into a table > where the output would be the pulse width. > > BUT, not being enamored with the swiss army knife approach where one tool fits > all, I would not use a single injector per cylinder or whatever. > > If the upper bit was connected to a solenoid valve that simple opened a > calibrated jet that was 50% of the flow, I have just doubled the dynamic range > of the "injector" without getting crazy. > > Now if you were binary enlightened, you might use a number of these jets, > driven off output bits of your table such that except for a very small amount > of variable fuel to do final trimming, everything is on fixed jets. > > Of course there would be no advantage to run these fixed jets say at 100 psi > off a bosch pump would there? And no advantage to staging them so that the > higher the flow, the further up the manifold runner they are as to allow > maximum cooling of the charge. And no advantage to these jets being smaller > than your little finger. > > And if this was a throttle body, totally eliminating the pulse width modulated > injector itself by using a lambda valve as a high speed solenoid to turn on or > off the finest jets. > > Calculating the flow is simple math since the orifice is fixed and the > pressure is fixed. Also can vary the number of jets in each step. 8 "jets" > generate 256 steps - probably far finer than a real engine needs, but not near > enough to satisfy the anally retentive who believe that precision to 10 > decimal points is required to run an engine. > > But silly me remembers that the basic advantage of pulsed injectors is to > improve the idle to ~2500 rpm emissions. And CIS type thinking on the Bosch > System used in some models by Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc was really > crappy at idle, had no power, was balky and all screwed up, couldn't > accelerate or run smooth - *** NOT***. > > And since the whole damn thing is fixed jets driven off a table - either on or > off, someone who is not chemically challenged might just arrange for some of > these jets to be connected to fuels other than gasoline - say methanal with a > taste of nitromethane - or staged with supplementary gaseous induction like > NOS. > > But that's not going to happen to anyone who loves the swiss army knife > approach. Twist your sister and think about it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:03:00 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED I've never overhauled nor tuned any of my Holley's, that may be part of the prob... I just swap one to another til I get one that works the best at the time for the kinda driving/racing that I'm doin at the time! Holley's will always probably be in my life, jsut not as much in the future after I figure out and adapt an inexpensive FI system to my car(s)... Startin with the 70 Superbee's 440... Future plans incluse twin turbo's so I need big nuff injectors to handle almost 1,000 hp, am currently at about 400-450 hp so need at LEAST big nuff injectors for 500 hp minimum, how many lb injectors do I ned if I go sequential port injection and where can I find these type of forumlae so I don't have to beg you's guys for answers to these type of simple answers to these formulae.... I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess 30-40 lb injectors will get me runnin where I'm current;y at HP wise, I don't know which size throttle body to use either, how do ya convert mm's to CFM? with a naturally as well as Turbo'd engine... I get 6.1-6.2 mpg on the highway currently and MUST correct this situation ASAP or else get even poorer and maybe lose electriciy, water, phone etc.. due to the fuel bill overpowering my other bills, I've GOT to get to work SOME HOW ya know! I believe I CAN get over 20 mph with a mild 440 in a 3700 lb car! What do ya'll think? Thanks for any positive(real,useable) input! Sincerely!, Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Thanks! Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Greg Hermann wrote: > > > >> > > >> Back to FI....Am about to rebuild a VACUUM 750 Holley, any tips? > > >> > > >> LATER! > > >> > > >> Todd....!! > > > > > >Dig a deep hole, insert the Holley, re install dirt. > > >Is that deep enough? > > >Shannen > > > > But--I LIKE 3310's!! > > > > Greg > > Gol durn leak prone, fragile, empty tank inducing things. They're not > my favorite metered leak. > If you could recover the time you've spent overhauling and tuning > Holleys, how much would you have? > Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:39:14 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED > > I've never overhauled nor tuned any of my Holley's, that may be part of > the prob... I just swap one to another til I get one that works the best > at the time for the kinda driving/racing that I'm doin at the time! > > Holley's will always probably be in my life, jsut not as much in the > future after I figure out and adapt an inexpensive FI system to my > car(s)... > > Startin with the 70 Superbee's 440... > > Future plans incluse twin turbo's so I need big nuff injectors to handle > almost 1,000 hp, am currently at about 400-450 hp so need at LEAST big > nuff injectors for 500 hp minimum, how many lb injectors do I ned if I > go sequential port injection and where can I find these type of forumlae > so I don't have to beg you's guys for answers to these type of simple > answers to these formulae.... 30 lb will be enough you will need 65 to do 100 HP and should probably use 80lb to be safe in case you calculated wrong and end up with more power than you thought Clive ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:53:26 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED Teller.John@xxx.com wrote: > > Shannen wrote: > > > >> But--I LIKE 3310's!! > >> > >> Greg > > > >Gol durn leak prone, fragile, empty tank inducing things. They're not > >my favorite metered leak. > >If you could recover the time you've spent overhauling and tuning > >Holleys, how much would you have? > >Shannen > > About the same time you may have spent overhauling Quadrajets - talk about empty > tank inducing things! > > --- John T. Yep, they've got a bad rep too. I happen to like them, but they definitely have faults. Lotsa Q-jets leak at the metering well plugs. Lots more get poorly tuned. I've seen some pretty strange stuff done to those carbs, by guys who didn't understand 'em. I'm sure they'd recommend the deep hole treatment to me for my RPD "junk". : ) Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:38:55 EDT From: Fisystems@xxx.com Subject: Re:Just out shopping for injectors Just out shopping for injectors ( GM port, 24-27lb) any ideas for a good supplier? Ken Murillo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 17:38:05 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED Todd....!! wrote: > > Future plans incluse twin turbo's so I need big nuff injectors to handle > almost 1,000 hp, am currently at about 400-450 hp so need at LEAST big > nuff injectors for 500 hp minimum, how many lb injectors do I ned if I > go sequential port injection and where can I find these type of forumlae > so I don't have to beg you's guys for answers to these type of simple > answers to these formulae.... http://sura1.jlab.org/~grippo/auto_f.html Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 07:54:08 +1000 From: Peter Gargano Subject: Re: Eprom Programer According to my notes, a 2532 is different to a 2732 as follows: 24pin 2532 2732 28pin -------------------------------- 18 A11 *CE (20) 20 *CE *OE/Vpp (22) 21 Vpp A11 (23) The 28pin column shows the pin numbers assuming a 28 pin socket is used and the 24 pin device (2532/2732) is placed so the GND pins share the same pin. According to an Hitachi HN462532 application note this is how you program one: 2532 mode selection *CE (20) Vpp (21) ------------------------------------------------- Read VIL 5V Standby VIH 5V Program VIH->VIL->VIH 25V Program Inhibit VIH 25V VIL and VIH are of course LOW and HI logic voltage levels. The SINGLE program pulse is nominally 50 mSec +/- 5 mSec. I have lots more info on programmers and have designed my own, using low cost 74LS series TTL logic, for connection to a parallel port. Note that the biggest problem will be writing software for all the different EPROMs. Perhaps someone knows of a "generic" EPROM programmer piece of software (with good source code) that already knows about different EPROMs? My software's "user interface" is still a "work in progress", but it does work for 2716s to 27512s. Another problem to solve is accurate timing of programming pulses. A simple solution is to use a 555 timer that the software can read (say set at 1 mSec and the software can count up to 50 for the 2532 described above, and still allow "intelligent algorithms" for the "bigger" EPROMs). This avoids having to "calibrate" the software for differing processor speeds, etc. If you're (or anyone else) is interested, I could convert my schematic from pencil/paper to something electronic. (please email me direct if you ARE interested mailto:peter@xxx.au this will avoid unnecessary bandwidth in this discussion group). Ezekiel Holliday wrote: > does anyone have the sepcs for programing a 2532. - -- Peter Gargano peter@xxx.au http://www.techedge.com.au/teinfo.htm Ph: +61 2 62515519 Fax: +61 2 6251 6646 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:42:45 -0400 From: Ron Boley Subject: Re: Misc Electronics Hi Folks, The easiest way to get at the signals of an Eprom is to find one of those DIP-CLIPS. It looks like one of the old close-pins, hinged in the middle with a spring to keep it closed. They are (were?) popular because you could clip your Scope probe to them and watch what was going on. If you can find them, solder your cable to the end points (Quickly) and you have a quick connector. The only other thing you will need to do is clean the water proof coating off the Eprom pins. One other thing you should look out for. Don't run to long of a cable since the inductance and capacitance of the cable may affect the operation of the Eprom. Ron Bruce Plecan wrote: > How, or is there a safe way to "open" the guts of an EPROM, that is so that > a ribbon cable can be soldiered to it, for using a remote prom/emulator. > > After a 3 month wait, I got a Radio Shack, PC/laptop 2 Oscilloscope probe > (They had run out at the master distribution center). > For the EEs probably it has little to offer but, least for me, I got to see > what the ALDL looks like.. > One big feature is that you can pick what colors contrast best for you. > So us ol timers can see what going on. > On a side note, is there enough interest for me to put together some > notes on an ecm bench?. I got some digitial photos, to go along with it, > just don't want to clutter the DIY stuff if not many are interested. > Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:42:45 -0400 From: Ron Boley Subject: Re: Misc Electronics Hi Folks, The easiest way to get at the signals of an Eprom is to find one of those DIP-CLIPS. It looks like one of the old close-pins, hinged in the middle with a spring to keep it closed. They are (were?) popular because you could clip your Scope probe to them and watch what was going on. If you can find them, solder your cable to the end points (Quickly) and you have a quick connector. The only other thing you will need to do is clean the water proof coating off the Eprom pins. One other thing you should look out for. Don't run to long of a cable since the inductance and capacitance of the cable may affect the operation of the Eprom. Ron Bruce Plecan wrote: > How, or is there a safe way to "open" the guts of an EPROM, that is so that > a ribbon cable can be soldiered to it, for using a remote prom/emulator. > > After a 3 month wait, I got a Radio Shack, PC/laptop 2 Oscilloscope probe > (They had run out at the master distribution center). > For the EEs probably it has little to offer but, least for me, I got to see > what the ALDL looks like.. > One big feature is that you can pick what colors contrast best for you. > So us ol timers can see what going on. > On a side note, is there enough interest for me to put together some > notes on an ecm bench?. I got some digitial photos, to go along with it, > just don't want to clutter the DIY stuff if not many are interested. > Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 19:45:04 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED If this is a typical drag setup with 4.56 gears and a Torqueflite no way you're gonna get 20 mpg. EFI will get you 10 to 15% economy compared to a well tuned carb. If you can get a carb setup to 15 mpg, then you can get 17 mpg with EFI. You will need overdrive and a cam that works at low rpm (1500). If you can't or won't tune a carb, how are you going to tune EFI? Gary Derian > > I get 6.1-6.2 mpg on the highway currently and MUST correct this > situation ASAP or else get even poorer and maybe lose electriciy, water, > phone etc.. due to the fuel bill overpowering my other bills, I've GOT > to get to work SOME HOW ya know! > > I believe I CAN get over 20 mph with a mild 440 in a 3700 lb car! > > What do ya'll think? > > Thanks for any positive(real,useable) input! > > Sincerely!, ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 16:49:33 -0700 (PDT) From: James Weiler Subject: testing injectors Gang, I was flipping through my copy of 'Maximum Boost' and noticed he had a simple injector tester. He had the injector opened by a simple switch hooked up to a 9V battery and he said to measure flow for 1 minute. This would hold the injector open at 100% duty cycle. I know this is a bad situation but for purposes of testing is this going to damage the injector (I don't need to measure for the whole minute, I could use 15-30 seconds if that makes a difference). Will this work for peak and hold injectors? If these injectors need 4 amps to open then I'm going to need something like a car battery to open the injector. Is using a car battery a bad idea here? i.e 12V vs. 9V I have some professionally cleaned and flow tested injectors that I can use as a refrence and I'll use methanol or paint thinner as the solvent or hexane (I'm a biochemist so I can get anything) ya hexane sounds good as it's not too volatile, methanol would be cheaper and easier however. Need some thought here. I know someone posted a simple circuit to based on a 555 timer but I'd like to do this quick. However if this is the only non destructive method then I will build that guizmo. Any and all ideas welcome as usual. jw ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:22:09 +0800 From: "WILMAN" Subject: Re: Eprom Programer - ---------- > From: Ezekiel Holliday > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Eprom Programer > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 12:19 AM > > I'm currently working on designing an eprom programer so that I can make > custom proms for my future fuel injection project. It currently will > suppor 2732, 2764, 27C64, 27C256, 27C512 and a few more standard eproms. > Does anyone have any suggestion for devices that it should support. Also > does anyone have the sepcs for programing a 2532. I'll post the design on > the web when I get done with it. I hope to keep the cost of building the > device to below $50. > > Zeke Holliday It might be a good idea to include 28F010 and 27C1024. > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:05:32 -0400 From: Bill Shaw Subject: Re: L-jetronic mods Hi James, Bruce's suggestion of the 749/Sunbird chip is a good one. I'm considering this as the next step for my Spider, or maybe EFI332, or maybe build my own. Before you take on replacing your ECU however, you might want to look at http://www.students.tut.fi/%7ek124775/Injection.html. He's got some good info on modifying the L-Jet. - ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Shaw '78 124 Spider (Will soon be) Fuel injected and stepping out over the line http://www.connix.com/~bshaw/fiat.html - ---------------------------------------------------- > Hello. I'm new to the list (sort of), so forgive me this subject has been > covered before. > I installed a custom turbo system on my 1980 Fiat Spider. Building the > system was a task itself but getting the engine to resist detontation has > been an uphill battle. If detonation is as destructive as what everybody > describes, then my engine would have been toast months ago because my > engine has shown no ill effects. So far anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:08:46 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED > you're gonna get 20 mpg. EFI will get you 10 to 15% economy compared to a > well tuned carb. Or triple if your carb sucks :) With modern day pickups approaching 20 MPG on the highway, my 5-6 MPG ratbag truck ain't cutting it, hence the push for EFI as well. Turbos for towing power, crappy mileage under load, and acceptable mileage for highway cruising. > (1500). If you can't or won't tune a carb, how are you going to tune EFI? Aaaah... that entirely depends on the system you choose. If you dump some cash for something simpler like the Edelbrock or Holley TBI setup, the bolt on, a few sensors are added, and both units come with fuel maps that are "reasonable" for various engines. A little tuning and you can get a vehicle on the road without being entirely tortured. For a more advanced TBI or even TPI, Haltach as well as Electromotive come to the rescue with a more complex system, but you can get great results with these. Both come with "configurations" for the Chevy BB (454), which you can "slap" in for the 440 Dodge, it should work well, its close enough. Its when you take a junkyard ECM (like the 7749) designed for a six cylinder engine and tune things up for a big twin-turbo V8 that your hair starts to flee your head. An electromotive Tec II system with junkyard sensors, throttlebody, wires and a bag of crimp spades/bullet connectors, you can get the vehicle up and running for approximately 1000-1200 if you buy just the unit, if I remember the pricing correctly. Been a year or so since I called them for pricing. The ignition is taken care of, since it has coil packs, so you can subtract the cost of a new distributor, regulator assembly (Its a Dodge thing), and all the crap associated with that. With the Tec II I'd chop off the insides of the dizzy and leave it in the block to spin the oil pump, rather than go dry sump and deal with that complex mess of hoses. Also, the Tec II supports 60 tooth wheels for the crank, and 120 tooth wheels for the cam, and there is nothing stopping someone from slapping one of those wheels on your dizzy head, and make the timing/engine position sensors more accessable. A friend of mine did this with his Chevy 350. Hope that helps. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:28:54 +0800 From: "WILMAN" Subject: Honda Vtec ECU Hello, Is there anybody out there who can help me to reprogram the ECU's found on 1992 onwards Honda Civic EG6 1.6 Vtec. Codes are either P30-G00 or P30-000. Wilman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 21:09:37 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: testing injectors Well, they say injectors will overheat and die from being on without fuel running thru them. I've had some on for 45 mins straight, and the seem to operate fine. They still react to times a low as 1.6 msecs, so I don't see the problem. These were saturated in this test. Also, have run then on the bench at 55 MPH in my 92 camaro for hours, and no smoke, still respond to short on times. I've run a Cold primer circuit using a IRF 511 and a 12 ohm resistor for years, for a primer. This was TBI. There was a comment about the injector doing a piss, and dribble as it turns on and off, so that will screw up, any real max flow sampling. But just doing the short duty cycle would be no good for that, so if I was gettin really serious I think I'd do both a 20% duty cycle test, and a 100%. I've seen some notes on how erratic a large P+H is at less than 2 msec., so I'd watch that real close. When running those. Yes to using a battery, and a proper fuse. Well ventilated area, yada yada, do everything in a safe manner, since most anything can be made expolsive. I'd also, get real critical about timing, ie solid state switching, no "by Hand stopwatch stuff" Just my 02 Bashful > I know this is a > bad situation but for purposes of testing is this going to damage the > injector (I don't need to measure for the whole minute, I could use 15-30 > seconds if that makes a difference). > Will this work for peak and hold injectors? If these injectors need 4 > amps to open then I'm going to need something like a car battery to open > the injector. Is using a car battery a bad idea here? i.e 12V vs. 9V > I have some professionally cleaned and flow tested injectors that I can > use as a refrence and I'll use methanol or paint thinner as the solvent > or hexane (I'm a biochemist so I can get anything) ya hexane sounds good > as it's not too volatile, methanol would be cheaper and easier however. > Need some thought here. > I know someone posted a simple circuit to based on a 555 timer but I'd > like to do this quick. However if this is the only non destructive > method then I will build that guizmo. > Any and all ideas welcome as usual. jw ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #276 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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