DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, May 13 1999 Volume 04 : Number 280 In this issue: Re: alternative engines, WARPED Re: In cylinder pressure measurement Re: RPM independence Anybody got links to the following FAQs RE: A very English EFI system See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:26:56 -0500 From: Tom Sharpe Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED Just stick a narrowed 9" in it with Currie axles..all for less than $800. Sharpe Greg Hermann wrote: > >I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > > >However I have a Dana 60 with the 4.10's and it takes a bit longer to > >swap out the gears in that baby, it'd probably be quicker to swap ou > >tthe entire rearend!? > > > >Good idea though. My friend with another 70 Bee which DOES have a Dana > >swapped his 4.10's out for some 3.23's and MAN does it HAUL on the > >highway! > > > > VERY INTERESTING!!! Especially since the tallest gear set Spicer ever made > for a 60 is 3.54!! and the tallest set I know of, aftermarket, for a 60 is > 3.33 (33 : 11), and not a very good one at all! (Look at the tooth count if > you wonder why it is not a bright combo!) Where did he get his gears?? > Taller gears are around for Dana 61's, but they were not made in 1970!! > There simply isn't enough room for a 13 tooth pinion in a 60!! > > Regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:33:49 -0500 From: Tom Sharpe Subject: Re: In cylinder pressure measurement Let's see... the piston measures combustion pressure... hooked to a rod... hooked to a crankshaft....If we could measure crankshaft acceleration 60 times a revolution, we could come up with some relative numbers... we need a toothed wheel and sensor and ????... Sharpe C. Brooks wrote: > Has anyone ever heard of anybody doing this? I was talking with someone > about data acquisition systems and the subject came up while we were > discussing methods of knock detection. I'm not to enthusiastic about being > able to monitor A/F ratios accurately or in realtime, and our conversation > kinda stuck with me. > > If anyone's ever seen or heard about somebody performing in cylinder > pressure measurements I'd love to hear about it. I imagine the transducers > would have to be pretty tough, how would they mount? What kind of sample > rate do you think would be needed? Best of all, who would make a sensor that > could take the abuse??? > > Charles Brooks ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 21:48:38 -0700 From: "Howard Wilkinson" Subject: Re: RPM independence Todd: Ford uses at least two sizes of oil pump drive rods.... perhaps this is different. H.W. P.S. Thanks for the magazine article info.... I'll try to obtain it. - -----Original Message----- From: Todd....!! To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 5:18 PM Subject: Re: RPM independence >Oh man Ted, > >I got it from RANDALL'S, on Fuqua street right here in South Houston, by >Pearland.... > >It's a very cool mag and talk about some power producing mules!! > >ALL the cars in it are FI'd some turbo'd some not, but ALL haul some >MAJOR BOODY! > >Haven't finished the mag yet, but it's been great thus far... > >They only speak about GM efi as well as aftermarket but no other brands >of oem efi systems suchb as the EEC's from Fart..er Ford.... > >BTW I DID get my 83 t-birds ignition to work with my good ol backup >electronic distributor from my Dodge! > >Two wires and I was there, it's a spark producin foooo.... > >Had a great and powerful spark too... > >however couldn't get the dern points distributor in the engine's >distributor hole, the points distributor was too big for the hole!! >Wierd, ey? Haven't found an answer as to why yet, maybe I snagged the >wrong distributor, like one outof a 351 instead of a 302, I can't tell >the diff, they looked so similar!! > >If anyone has any insight to this, please let me know... > >Plans are to go back the the yard and trade the points for a newer >electronic distributor out of a newer model Ford car... > >Any advice? > >LATER! > >Todd....!! > >Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: >> >> where do you get GM High-Tech Performance ? >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Todd....!! [SMTP:atc347@xxx.net] >> > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 9:53 AM >> > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> > Subject: Re: RPM independence >> > >> > Howard the article is in the May 99 issue of GM High-Tech Performance >> > >> > And the brand that uses Volumetric and other formulae instead of look-up >> > tables is known as Electromotive.... Probably heard of em? HAHA!?? >> > >> > Keep me informed of your progress in this matter! >> > >> > LATER! >> > >> > Todd....!! >> > >> > Howard Wilkinson wrote: >> > > >> > > Todd: >> > > I would be very interested in reading the article you mentioned. >> > > Please let me know if you find it. >> > > My basic thought here is to emulate the working of the Bosch >> > > mechanical CIS fuel injection system electronically which would allow >> > > it to be modulated by feedback, but still yield a system simple enough >> > > to be operated by a very low cost controller. Injector timing is >> > > irrelevant, therefore injector firing rate is also irrelevant within >> > > the range above engine RPM. >> > > Perhaps mathematical formulae are not adequate to control fuel >> > > delivery.... maybe lookup tables are necessary. The Bosch mechanical >> > > system used a shaped MAF to keep fuel flow which was mechanically >> > > controlled in line with the motion of the MAF actuator arm. This put >> > > the mathematical calculation into the profile of the MAF throat which >> > > was in effect a computer (a mechanical computer). It took far more >> > > intelligence in my opinion to design this one part than to program >> > > look up tables which can be done by trial and error, or by a simple >> > > feedback system. I believe I could sit here and flow chart out and >> > > write a program to generate the lookup tables based on feedback, and >> > > minimal programmer input. I'm just looking at different possible >> > > approaches to the problem of managing fuel delivery via computer. >> > > H.W. >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Todd....!! >> > > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> > > >> > > Date: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 1:15 PM >> > > Subject: Re: RPM independence >> > > >> > > >Hello Howard, >> > > > >> > > >your theory is TOTALLY GREAT and acceptable, and a system has alread >> > > >ybeen created, produced, and marketed, and it's gone over wiht a >> > > pretty >> > > >good fine tooth comb within on eof the laterChecvy Hi po mags dealing >> > > >with all of the diff types, makes, and brands of FI for just about >> > > any >> > > >type engine! >> > > > >> > > >Will get the name of the mag, I know you already know about the mag, >> > > >just maybe not about the article(s) within this specific issue? >> > > > >> > > >But the basic function of the type system I believe you are referring >> > > to >> > > >is based upon the use of formulas instead of tables... I think you >> > > are >> > > >right in line witht the way this REALLY advanced system is designed >> > > to >> > > >function! >> > > > >> > > >Will post details later, (mag's at home)! >> > > > >> > > >LATER! >> > > > >> > > >Todd....!! >> > > > >> > > >Howard Wilkinson wrote: >> > > >> >> > > >> I have given more than a little thought to the possibility of an >> > > EFI >> > > >> system that operated completely independently of engine RPM. The >> > > idea >> > > >> being that as the injectors are batch fired anyway, the timing is >> > > >> irrelevant so long as the injectors fire at engine RPM or more. >> > > >> Such a system could be almost entirely MAF based. The >> > > injectors >> > > >> would begin at a very short pulse width, and simply increase pulse >> > > >> rate up to a set pulse rate where width would be increased >> > > thereafter. >> > > >> Such a system could be operated based on mathematical formulae >> > > rather >> > > >> than on look up tables. A simple equation based on ECT could >> > > modify >> > > >> the result for cold operation, and a TPS modifier would give >> > > >> accelerator pump effect. Map should not be necessary as air >> > > density >> > > >> should directly effect MAF output. An O2 loop would handle minor >> > > >> dicrepancies. >> > > >> A lot of the complexity of the common EFI systems comes from >> > > the >> > > >> desire to fire the injectors once per revolution. Because of RPM >> > > >> dependence, the MAP, MAF, & TPS outputs are meaningful only in the >> > > >> context of RPM. Total fuel delivery per unit time is only directly >> > > >> related to MAF.... It is not closely related to RPM, Throttle >> > > >> Position, or Vacuum individually as it is to MAF. The MAF tells us >> > > >> how much fuel we must deliver per unit time, but the system must >> > > then >> > > >> work out the pulse rate based on RPM, and pulse width for that rate >> > > to >> > > >> achieve the desired delivery per unit time. >> > > >> If we know that x amount of fuel is delivered at Y pulse width >> > > per >> > > >> pulse, then it becomes a simple matter to determine how many pulses >> > > >> per unit time are required to deliver that amount of fuel. At some >> > > >> point pulse rate reaches a max practical limit, and at that point >> > > >> pulse rate can become constant, and pulse width may be modified >> > > above >> > > >> that point to control fuel delivery. The fewer factors you are >> > > >> changing the simple the program becomes. >> > > >> Perhaps this is a simple minded vew of the process, but then >> > > I'm a >> > > >> simple minded sort of guy.... I am of the "KISS" school of thought. >> > > >> H.W. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 01:38:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Subject: Anybody got links to the following FAQs need urls for: any oil FAQ dino/synth/semi no veg/cooking same for Gear lubes/ greases / ATFs etc. same for power steering/ hyd oil EGR FAQ head porting FAQ or other engine mod FAQs ( general best, specific OK) suspension design FAQs frame/chassis/rollcage design FAQs etc Thanks Clive ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:06:31 +0100 From: "Robertson, Nigel" Subject: RE: A very English EFI system Sorry, Your response to this email didn't make sense to me. Is there a bit missing? Thankyou Nigel > -----Original Message----- > From: WILMAN [SMTP:wilman@xxx.net] > Sent: 14 May 1999 01:22 > To: diy_efi > Subject: Re: A very English EFI system > > > > ---------- > > From: Robertson, Nigel > > To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' > > Subject: A very English EFI system > > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 6:48 PM > > > > HI, > > > > This is my first post to this mailing list, although I have been reading > all > > your comments for some time now. They have been both interesting and in > a > > lot of cases useful. > > > > This may be a long shot but have any of you guys had any dealings with > the > > Rover MEMS engine management system designed by Motorola. I would like > to > > look more deeply at this system because I have two cars which use them. > > However, the automotive industry in the UK is a very Secret society and > > getting any information is virtually impossible. Any information from > > dealers is usually wrong because they do not have the technical > expertise > to > > answer questions. > > > > So, I am trying this list as a last resort. If anybody has opened one > up > I > > would be interested in hearing from you, or , if anyone is interesting > in > > trying the US route of gaining info for me (Freedom of Information is a > > wonderful thing) I would be most grateful. > > > > Thanks In Advance > > > > Nigel > > > > > I think the system is designed by a British company called Gems. They > should serial reprogrmmable. Which model of cars have you got? > I am using one of their programmable systems on a Peugeot. > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > Nigel Robertson, BEng. CEng. MIEE. > > Senior Engineer > > Roke Manor Research Ltd > > Old Salisbury Lane > > Romsey > > SO51 0ZN > > Tel 01794 833524 > > Fax 01794 526943 > > email nigel.robertson@xxx.uk > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #280 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".