DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, May 13 1999 Volume 04 : Number 281 In this issue: Re: Modifying OBD-II systems Re: Honda Vtec ECU Re: In cylinder pressure measurement Re: Found 454/502 truck prom Re: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool. Re: A very English EFI system Re: Found 454/502 truck prom Re: RPM independence Re: alternative engines, WARPED RE: A very English EFI system Re: alternative engines, WARPED Re: alternative engines, WARPED Re: poor mileage Re: alternative engines, WARPED Re: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool. Re: alternative engines, WARPED Re: RPM independence See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:44:28 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Modifying OBD-II systems At 09:43 PM 5/12/99 -0400, you wrote: >So we won't be having the open discussions about tuning the OBD-II systens >like we do with the ALDL systems? What do the guys with new cars do when >they hot-rod them? Stop participating in the program? It's no more illegal to modify a 1999 OBD_II PCM than it is to modify a 1981 Carb ECM. There are rampant false rumors that OBD_II monitors your every move and that's plain and simple BS. OBD_II can be modified, but there are security measures in the PCM... to address the cal via the OBD_II (SAE-J1850) data link, there is a security algorithym based on the VIN of the vehicle. You request access, the PCM requests a code, you send the code, then your in. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:29:27 -0400 From: Wen Yen Chan Subject: Re: Honda Vtec ECU Hello, I think they guys on the Honda Hybrid page have reverse engineered the 1.6 vtec's ECU. Wen On Wed, 12 May 1999, WILMAN wrote: > Hello, > > Is there anybody out there who can help me to reprogram the ECU's > found on 1992 onwards Honda Civic EG6 1.6 Vtec. Codes are either P30-G00 > or P30-000. > > > > Wilman > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:13:32 est From: "Charles Brooks" Subject: Re: In cylinder pressure measurement Hhmm, OK. So I use a hall effect sensor on a toothed wheel and calculate acceration from the change in PRI as seen at the HE sensor. If I have a motor running at 5000RPM/60seconds=83.33RPS and a DAQ with a 10KS/s sample rate I get 120 samples per revolution. Now, how would I compensate for engine loading? Acceleration would be higher in 1st gear than in 4th, it would also be higher going downhill than it would be going up. There's also internal friction to consider. Could probaby get around the friction part by using some constant, but I'm not sure how to go about the gear changes and driving conditions... Charles Brooks - ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Tom Sharpe Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:33:49 -0500 >Let's see... the piston measures combustion pressure... hooked to a rod... hooked to a crankshaft....If we could measure crankshaft acceleration 60 times a revolution, we could come up with some relative numbers... we need a toothed wheel and sensor and ????... Sharpe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:44:40 EDT From: AL8001@xxx.com Subject: Re: Found 454/502 truck prom In a message dated 99-05-12 22:48:43 EDT, nacelp@xxx.net writes: >Who/what is a Jim Pace? >I don't see any prom numbers that start with other than, 16 ------ >Do you have a Broad Cast Code?. >Is this using the 747 ecm?. >Bruce Jim Pace sells GM factory performance parts. 1-888-748-4675 www.paceparts.com 430 Youngstown rd Niles Ohio 44446 This is from page 16 of the 1999 catqlog. "The conversion kit parts are intended for 91-93 Chevy GMC 10,20,30 series trucks originally equiped with a 454 TBI engine and 4L80E auto transmission" I don't know what ECM is stock for a 91-93 truck. The 12366556 PROM may be a performance parts only PN, don't have a broadcast code. It must also be used with a 18LB fuel reg kit# 17113186. Page 14 shows the engine availible by it self 12371054. It states " The HT502 is intended for 1970 and eariler Chev and GMC 20, 30 series trucks. The HT502 is not intended for use with electronic fuel injection. When used with EFI, under certain heavy load and high altitude conditions, engine damage may occur due to lean fuel mixture condition." I would tend to think the above is not recommended for a unmodified EFI system. ( since it's MAP/speed/density the ECM would never see the larger engine properly.) Harold ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 12:55:06 GMT From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Subject: Re: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool. Not really. Lets look at what happens. Combustion - Third Edition. Irvin Glassman - page 96 (1) Following ignition, the primary fuel disappears with little or no energy release and produces unsaturated hydrocarbons and hydrogen. A little of the hydrogen is concurrently oxidized to water. (2) Subsequently, the unsaturated compounds are further oxidized to carbon monoxide and water. Simultaneously, the hydrogen present and formed is oxidized to water. (3) Finally, the large amounts of carbon monoxide formed are oxidized to carbon dioxide and most of the heat released from the overall reaction is obtained. Recall that the CO is not oxidized to CO2 until most of the fuel is consumed owing to the rapidity which the OH reacts with the fuel compared to its reaction with CO." Then one must note from the above or other references that the carbon monoxide to carbon dioxide reaction where most of the heat of combustion occurs essentially "freezes" around 700 c. The longer the combustion remains above 700c, the more of the fuel that will be converted and the more heat that will be released. Or another way to put it, when the temperature of the combustive gas drops below 700c, we essentially stop generating more heat (pressure) and live with what you have. Of course the reaction still goes on - but at up to orders of magnitude slower rate. Coating's reduce the heat loss "cooling" at the critical time around TDC, thus allowing more heat to be released in combustion and greater pressure to be made. Note that the heat increase in not from the heat being returned to the gas by reducing the loss - but from more CO completing to CO2 and thereby releasing more total heat. The majority of "cooling" occurs as the gas expansion transfers energy from the combustion gases to the piston. Since the face of the exhaust valve is significantly cooler, LESS coolant is needed in the heads and more might be required in the block - thus negating any advantage of reverse cooling. Previously he stated "and the fuel is consumed, to a major extent, before significant energy release occurs. The higher the initial temperature, the greater the energy release, as the fuel is being converted" Ceramic coating everything nicely increases the initial temperatures also by reducing heat rejection to the chamber. This increase in ability to convert fuel to energy is at the heart of the air pollution war - as it after a certain temperature begins to dis-associate nitrogen and form nitrous oxide products as well. Also to note - this book is primarily about combustion and it processes and most decidedly is not concerned with the otto cycle and carnot worship. > >Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 19:56:40 -0400 >From: "Bruce Plecan" >Subject: Re: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool. > >Just for grins, we barrier coat the piston domes >the intake valve face, the exhaust valve face. >In theory then we have captured more heat to be recovered by the movement of >the piston, right??. >Now that we have with held this higher heat, for a longer period of time, >then more >heat is put into the top of the cylinder bores, right..... > The cooling system was designed so that the exhaust valve seat area is the >"hot spot", so don't we now have to "reverse" cool the engine to get the >max effectiveness out of this??.. >grumpy > 1963 Ford C-600 Prison Bus Conversion "Home" 1971 Lincoln Continental 460 "Christine" 1972 "Whale" Mustang awaiting transplant 1978 Dodge Long Bed Peeek Up "Bundymobile" Habaneros - not just for breakfast anymore ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 23:47:00 +0300 From: "John Andrianakis" Subject: Re: A very English EFI system Once tried to reprogram the eprom in a Rover MGF VVC. Its a 27c1024 plcc 44 item. It was really very difficult to locate the maps with the emulator.Most of the bin file is 16bit but some areas are 8bit and very confusing. In the process while changing the values on unknown map the car died. After that it refused to idle but would work ok otherwise. The ecu had to re learn how to idle. That was accomplished with the Rover MEMS diagnostic aquipment at a dealer and not very easily. It required not just a normal reset of all learned values but to treat it as a brand new ecu. The relearning took over 30 min while I watched the ecu trying to work in closed loop, continiously closing the range of a/f ratios used and responding faster. The engine started rough and smoothed out during the day.Unfortunately the owner got scared that something even worse might happen to his brand new car so we dropped the tuning left it normal. I have not come up to another one yet. I have the stock bin file if you want to see and schematic of the wiring of the mems ecu but only one of the connectors(have to scan this one though). Hope I have helped. Regards, John Andrianakis. - -----Original Message----- From: Robertson, Nigel To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Τετάρτη, 12 Μαΐου 1999 4:38 μμ Subject: A very English EFI system >HI, > >This is my first post to this mailing list, although I have been reading all >your comments for some time now. They have been both interesting and in a >lot of cases useful. > >This may be a long shot but have any of you guys had any dealings with the >Rover MEMS engine management system designed by Motorola. I would like to >look more deeply at this system because I have two cars which use them. >However, the automotive industry in the UK is a very Secret society and >getting any information is virtually impossible. Any information from >dealers is usually wrong because they do not have the technical expertise to >answer questions. > >So, I am trying this list as a last resort. If anybody has opened one up I >would be interested in hearing from you, or , if anyone is interesting in >trying the US route of gaining info for me (Freedom of Information is a >wonderful thing) I would be most grateful. > >Thanks In Advance > >Nigel > >_________________________________________________________________________ >Nigel Robertson, BEng. CEng. MIEE. >Senior Engineer >Roke Manor Research Ltd >Old Salisbury Lane >Romsey >SO51 0ZN >Tel 01794 833524 >Fax 01794 526943 >email nigel.robertson@xxx.uk > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:28:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Subject: Re: Found 454/502 truck prom > > This is from page 16 of the 1999 catqlog. > > "The conversion kit parts are intended for 91-93 Chevy GMC 10,20,30 series > trucks originally equiped with a 454 TBI engine and 4L80E auto transmission" > > I don't know what ECM is stock for a 91-93 truck. The 12366556 PROM may be a > performance parts only PN, don't have a broadcast code. It must also be used > with a 18LB fuel reg kit# 17113186. > > Page 14 shows the engine availible by it self 12371054. It states " The > HT502 is intended for 1970 and eariler Chev and GMC 20, 30 series trucks. > The HT502 is not intended for use with electronic fuel injection. When used > with EFI, under certain heavy load and high altitude conditions, engine > damage may occur due to lean fuel mixture condition." > > I would tend to think the above is not recommended for a unmodified EFI > system. ( since it's MAP/speed/density the ECM would never see the larger > engine properly.) I would think that putting 20% larger injectors and a cam similar to the stock one would get you in the ballpark using the stock ECU cals Clive ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 08:32:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: RPM independence - -> O2 sensors were running around in 1972. Bosch began development of the L-Jet in 1968. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:56:17 -0700 From: Bill Edgeworth Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED I have not been following this thread but I believe the mopar 8-3/4 axle is common for that car and compared to a stock 9" casing is about the same strength ( I am not comparing it to the nodular 9" stuff) High strength axles can be had for a very reasonable price from Moser. Ratios are available from the 2's to 5's. If you are producing 450+ HP I recommend aftermarket axles for the 8-3/4 (I have broke them in a big block A body with that HP) Bill Edgeworth Tom Sharpe wrote: > Just stick a narrowed 9" in it with Currie axles..all for less than $800. > Sharpe > > Greg Hermann wrote: > > > >I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > > > > >However I have a Dana 60 with the 4.10's and it takes a bit longer to > > >swap out the gears in that baby, it'd probably be quicker to swap ou > > >tthe entire rearend!? > > > > > >Good idea though. My friend with another 70 Bee which DOES have a Dana > > >swapped his 4.10's out for some 3.23's and MAN does it HAUL on the > > >highway! > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 16:45:40 +0100 From: "Robertson, Nigel" Subject: RE: A very English EFI system John, THis sounds excellent information. Can you send me everything you have and what you did. The bin file and the schematic will be very useful, how did you acquire such goodies. Nigel R _________________________________________________________________________ Nigel Robertson, BEng. CEng. MIEE. Senior Engineer Roke Manor Research Ltd Old Salisbury Lane Romsey SO51 0ZN Tel 01794 833524 Fax 01794 526943 email nigel.robertson@xxx.uk > -----Original Message----- > From: John Andrianakis [SMTP:mc94633@xxx.gr] > Sent: 12 May 1999 21:47 > To: diy_efi > Subject: Re: A very English EFI system > > Once tried to reprogram the eprom in a Rover MGF VVC. Its a 27c1024 plcc > 44 > item. It was really very difficult to locate the maps with the > emulator.Most > of the bin file is 16bit but some areas are 8bit and very confusing. In > the > process while changing the values on unknown map the car died. After that > it > refused to idle but would work ok otherwise. The ecu had to re learn how > to > idle. That was accomplished with the Rover MEMS diagnostic aquipment at a > dealer and not very easily. It required not just a normal reset of all > learned values but to treat it as a brand new ecu. The relearning took > over > 30 min while I watched the ecu trying to work in closed loop, continiously > closing the range of a/f ratios used and responding faster. The engine > started rough and smoothed out during the day.Unfortunately the owner got > scared that something even worse might happen to his brand new car so we > dropped the tuning left it normal. I have not come up to another one yet. > I > have the stock bin file if you want to see and schematic of the wiring of > the mems ecu but only one of the connectors(have to scan this one though). > Hope I have helped. > Regards, > John Andrianakis. > -----Original Message----- > From: Robertson, Nigel > To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' > > Date: Τετάρτη, 12 Μαΐου 1999 4:38 μμ > Subject: A very English EFI system > > > >HI, > > > >This is my first post to this mailing list, although I have been reading > all > >your comments for some time now. They have been both interesting and in > a > >lot of cases useful. > > > >This may be a long shot but have any of you guys had any dealings with > the > >Rover MEMS engine management system designed by Motorola. I would like > to > >look more deeply at this system because I have two cars which use them. > >However, the automotive industry in the UK is a very Secret society and > >getting any information is virtually impossible. Any information from > >dealers is usually wrong because they do not have the technical expertise > to > >answer questions. > > > >So, I am trying this list as a last resort. If anybody has opened one up > I > >would be interested in hearing from you, or , if anyone is interesting in > >trying the US route of gaining info for me (Freedom of Information is a > >wonderful thing) I would be most grateful. > > > >Thanks In Advance > > > >Nigel > > > >_________________________________________________________________________ > >Nigel Robertson, BEng. CEng. MIEE. > >Senior Engineer > >Roke Manor Research Ltd > >Old Salisbury Lane > >Romsey > >SO51 0ZN > >Tel 01794 833524 > >Fax 01794 526943 > >email nigel.robertson@xxx.uk > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:00:06 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED Sorry Greg, type=o, my budy has an 8 3/4, was getin ahead of myself in the prev e-mail... ALSO, didn't know Dana's don't go lower than 3.33! Definitely learned somethin outa that type-o error! Thanks for that info as well! I would really like to see what the bee would do with the tallest gears made for an 8 3/4, and put an 8 3/4 in the dude and let her fly, I only wanna turn max of 6,000 rpm so we'll see.... Already made a spreadsheet which cross calculates gear ratio with engine rpm with a 1:1 final drive... The only variable, which is entered as a constant in a specific cell is the tire height.... I don't account for any slippage in the trans/torque converter... Thanks again for the additional info about the gears! LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Greg Hermann wrote: > > >I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > > >However I have a Dana 60 with the 4.10's and it takes a bit longer to > >swap out the gears in that baby, it'd probably be quicker to swap ou > >tthe entire rearend!? > > > >Good idea though. My friend with another 70 Bee which DOES have a Dana > >swapped his 4.10's out for some 3.23's and MAN does it HAUL on the > >highway! > > > > VERY INTERESTING!!! Especially since the tallest gear set Spicer ever made > for a 60 is 3.54!! and the tallest set I know of, aftermarket, for a 60 is > 3.33 (33 : 11), and not a very good one at all! (Look at the tooth count if > you wonder why it is not a bright combo!) Where did he get his gears?? > Taller gears are around for Dana 61's, but they were not made in 1970!! > There simply isn't enough room for a 13 tooth pinion in a 60!! > > Regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:12:26 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED I have a 72 Buick 455 in my 72 Jaguar, but the carb that was on it was jetted for Cheyenne, Wyoming, I already messed up my first 455 that I put in the Jag due to this carbs' pretetonation causing lean condition... broke a couple of peices of ring crowns off the top of a couple a the pistons.... Damage was already done long before I swapped out the carb for a sea level configured rochester... Have already swapped out the 455 with another one, the Jag runs 14.6 @ 89 mph, has 4-wheel disc brakes, independant rear suspension, and is a posi and is geared for a wimpy 6 cylinder so it's geared really high, like at LEAST 3.73 or higher, don't have an 8 cyl tach in it, only the 6 cyl tack, which is WAY off.... It has dual fuel tanks that hold about 14 to 16 gallons each, has dual shocks on the back as well as rack and pinion steering, AND a full leather and wood grained interior! Can't ask for much more, except A/C, which is pretty critical in Houston humid and hot weather, ya know! Pretty cool car, it could use some FI work as well, gas mileage isn't too good, about 15-16 on a good day on the highway.... Currently has 205/60 15's all around on stock chrome steel wheels, will be gettin taller tires in the back for better gas mileage will lower the rpm on the highway considerably... also has limo tint all around and is painted dark blue... Just so people would know what just beat em at the lights or at the track, I stuck the 455 emblem off the grill of the Buick Estate Wagon next to the XJ on the trunk of the Jag and painted it BRIGHT NEON YELLOW so they wouldn't miss it.... THAT, however, doesn't help em when they're sittin next to me at the lights, they have NO IDEA what's about to happen to em... The rearend squats really bad and the front end rises pretty good and the sucker just takes off if ya give it the gas right, otherwise ya just spin, but still take off quick... haven't weighed it yet, have no idea what a stock 6 cyl XJ6 weighs... Do any of ya'll know? Thanks again for the info about the bigger Rochesters... LATER! Todd....!! Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Todd....!! wrote: > > > > I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > > > > Will try gettin the 600 vac to idle better, maybe even run the ol > > Rochester off the 70 Chev truck again.. I used to run this carb, had > > GREAT idle characteristics, but couldn't break any lower than a 13.6 in > > the quarter with it, it's only a 625 or so cfm Rochester... > > Q-jets from Buick 455 engines, 68-73, have larger primaries, flow > maybe 800cfm. Other Q jets have max flow of, like, 740 cfm. (I'll > grab the books later, if you need the numbers). Push the air door > open (top plate for secondaries) and look at what limits the maximum > opening. If the door doesn't open to slightly off vertical, the stop > can be filed. > Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:37:05 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: poor mileage Hi Charles, Thanks for the insight n stories and all... I don't believe that gears and cam have anything to do with each other if we're not talkin about racing... And from what I've heard and read, carb cfm should be chosen based on a 30% increase as to what is theoretically calculated as to what is perfect... so a 750 may be a bit small, I shift at 6,000, haven't gotten my launch down yet, the tires don't stick if I power brake it even a little bit, so as soon as I get tires, I'l see which launch technique works best... If you BLOWN 440 gets better gas mileage than my NA 440 then somethins GOT to be set wrong or I just can't keep my foot out if it long enough to be able to tell what me best mpg is! Will try to be more disciplined in the future! Thanks again! LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Charles wrote: > > On Wed, 12 May 1999 17:14:19 -0400, you wrote: > > >>I get 6.1-6.2 mpg on the highway currently and MUST correct this > >>I believe I CAN get over 20 mph with a mild 440 in a 3700 lb car! > > Uh, that's "mpg", right? ^^^ ;) > > >First off, if you are still running a 8 3/4 rear end, get a high ratio center > >section ( 2.76 or so) and swap it > > May be a little tall depending on his cam... how 'bout > 3.23? > > >Next, find a 650 or smaller _vacuume_ secondary carb > >Third, run a distrubitor with vacuume advance on the street. > > Excellent advice. Too many hotrodders think "bigger is > better" when it comes to induction systems. Same for > mechanical-only distributors "it's a RACE part, so it must > be really fast"! > > >Fourth, keep your foot out of it! > > Come on, Harold. The whole point of a 440 IS to put > your foot in it! > > >You may not get 20 mpg, but you should at least double your current 6 mpg. > > I concur. I used to have a Valiant (~3200 lb) with a > 383, Holley 750 vac.sec, vacuum advance distrib, Street Hemi > cam, headers, 4-speed manual, 3.23 rear. > > Got 14-15 mpg on the highway at 65 mph. Mix of highway > and Saturday night stoplight action, 12 mpg. Lowest ever was > 8.5 mpg (nearly all at WOT going to the 7-11 store a quarter > of a mile away ;) > > Then I got carried away and built a 7:1 440, BDS 6-71 > blower, two 750's, no vacuum advance. Only 9 mpg on the > highway with the same drivetrain. Of course it was flooding > badly (dirt in the needle valve seats)... > > One more non-EFI story. My '84 F150 was only getting 12 > mpg until I advanced the timing about 20 degrees (damper > mark had moved, apparently, so it was way too retarded). Now > 15 mpg with no other changes. Points out the value of a > proper advance (i.e. including vacuum advance), doesn't it! > > -Charles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:54:19 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED CL, It takes a LOT of gear to get a behemoth like our b-body Mopars outa the hole, 2.xx gears just doesn't cut it, as compared to 4.xx gears, no comparison... The torque of the Big Blocks still may feel strong even with the highway gears but it's not as effective as when ya use quicker gears such as the 4.10's.... I drove my 70 Bee with the ol 383 and 4.10's with an automatic 727 from Cheyenne, Wy to Houston, Texas back in June of 1989, got 15 mpg goin 50 mph most of the way... with 100+ mph jaunts about every 10 to 30 minutes to clean er out... Windows were down the whole way, except for when it rained in the hill country of Texas... That trip was with an 800 spread bore single feed dbl pmpr jetted pretty rich for Cheyenne's altitude(Over 5,200 ft).... And NO I didn't use ear plugs as I should've.... I was runnin dual cherry bombs only, straight off the headers, and couldn't go to sleep the night I arrived in Houston due to my ears ringing.... Have since acquired a LOt of single packs of those sponge roll up ear plugs for passengers and myself on those long trip days... Am about to install a set of 3 inch pipes with 3 inch 2 chambered flows, they're in the trunk, I need to have the muffs welded back onto the pipes, wonder how it'll sound, as compared to the current 2.5 inch pipes with el cheapo turbo's... Thanks fo rthe stories mang... LATER! Todd....!! CLsnyder wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Todd....!! > To: > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 3:17 PM > Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED > > > I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > > > However I have a Dana 60 with the 4.10's and it takes a bit longer to > > swap out the gears in that baby, it'd probably be quicker to swap ou > > tthe entire rearend!? > > > > Good idea though. My friend with another 70 Bee which DOES have a Dana > > swapped his 4.10's out for some 3.23's and MAN does it HAUL on the > > highway! > > A friend has a '69 'Runner with the 383 Magnum, 2.7? gears and wide ratio > box. Good out of the hole with the steep low gears, and excellent mileage > driving half sensibly in 4th. Pretty well bury the needle in third at > redline. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:55:03 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Misc Electronics / barrier coat / reverse cool. Please do... Am very interested in this stuff... Todd....!! Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Bruce Plecan wrote: > > > > Just for grins, we barrier coat the piston domes > > the intake valve face, the exhaust valve face. > > In theory then we have captured more heat to be recovered by the movement of > > the piston, right??. > > Now that we have with held this higher heat, for a longer period of time, > > then more > > heat is put into the top of the cylinder bores, right..... > > The cooling system was designed so that the exhaust valve seat area is the > > "hot spot", so don't we now have to "reverse" cool the engine to get the > > max effectiveness out of this??.. > > grumpy > > > I can tell you this: Takes longer for car to reach operating temp on > the gauge (sender in LH head) than any other car I've owned, with this > coating installed. I'll let you know what the chambers and pistons > look like when I pull the heads off, as far as possible heating goes. > Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 10:58:49 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: alternative engines, WARPED Tom, That would be considered auto sacriledge.... It was hard nuff to get past everyone griping about seeing the Rochester on the Mopar, plus, the 8 3/4 mopar cn hold up to a stock bodied 70 Cuda runnin in the 9's with STOCK axles and stuff..... Well, I should state that they hold up to that kindof abuse for a lil while anyways, buddy has a 70 Cuda with narrowed 8 3/4 rearend that was narrowed and ladder barred, the axles are twisted a bit, but there was a LOT of nitrous being applied to those axles and it has big ol slicks under a tubbed car! Pretty strong if ya ask me... Will think about the 9 inch though... Thanks for the input mang.... LATER! Todd....!! Tom Sharpe wrote: > > Just stick a narrowed 9" in it with Currie axles..all for less than $800. > Sharpe > > Greg Hermann wrote: > > > >I hear ya Harold, makes sense to me... > > > > > >However I have a Dana 60 with the 4.10's and it takes a bit longer to > > >swap out the gears in that baby, it'd probably be quicker to swap ou > > >tthe entire rearend!? > > > > > >Good idea though. My friend with another 70 Bee which DOES have a Dana > > >swapped his 4.10's out for some 3.23's and MAN does it HAUL on the > > >highway! > > > > > > > VERY INTERESTING!!! Especially since the tallest gear set Spicer ever made > > for a 60 is 3.54!! and the tallest set I know of, aftermarket, for a 60 is > > 3.33 (33 : 11), and not a very good one at all! (Look at the tooth count if > > you wonder why it is not a bright combo!) Where did he get his gears?? > > Taller gears are around for Dana 61's, but they were not made in 1970!! > > There simply isn't enough room for a 13 tooth pinion in a 60!! > > > > Regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 11:02:36 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: RPM independence Will find out about the diff's BEFORE I purchase ANYTHING else for the t-berd.... Will go to RPM performance in Pasadena(We call it STINK-adena due to it's paper mill releasing it's stink into the air every few days, it makes a person GAG just from a wiff of it!) RPM performance seems to know the stuff, have been mofifying a lot of VERY QUICK mustangs with s and t-trim superchargers(gearchargers, whatever) and I've never been within their doors, will soon and have both Ford distributors in the trunk of the Bee for when I happen to get within their vicinity..... Thanks for the oil pump drive info... And your welcome about the mag, if ya can't get it I can grab another one and mail it to ya or somethin.... have you done a search on the web for the magazine name? I bet it's out there somewhere's...maybe? LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Howard Wilkinson wrote: > > Todd: > Ford uses at least two sizes of oil pump drive rods.... perhaps > this is different. H.W. > > P.S. Thanks for the magazine article info.... I'll try to obtain it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Todd....!! > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 5:18 PM > Subject: Re: RPM independence > > >Oh man Ted, > > > >I got it from RANDALL'S, on Fuqua street right here in South Houston, > by > >Pearland.... > > > >It's a very cool mag and talk about some power producing mules!! > > > >ALL the cars in it are FI'd some turbo'd some not, but ALL haul some > >MAJOR BOODY! > > > >Haven't finished the mag yet, but it's been great thus far... > > > >They only speak about GM efi as well as aftermarket but no other > brands > >of oem efi systems suchb as the EEC's from Fart..er Ford.... > > > >BTW I DID get my 83 t-birds ignition to work with my good ol backup > >electronic distributor from my Dodge! > > > >Two wires and I was there, it's a spark producin foooo.... > > > >Had a great and powerful spark too... > > > >however couldn't get the dern points distributor in the engine's > >distributor hole, the points distributor was too big for the hole!! > >Wierd, ey? Haven't found an answer as to why yet, maybe I snagged > the > >wrong distributor, like one outof a 351 instead of a 302, I can't > tell > >the diff, they looked so similar!! > > > >If anyone has any insight to this, please let me know... > > > >Plans are to go back the the yard and trade the points for a newer > >electronic distributor out of a newer model Ford car... > > > >Any advice? > > > >LATER! > > > >Todd....!! > > > >Stowe, Ted-SEA wrote: > >> > >> where do you get GM High-Tech Performance ? > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Todd....!! [SMTP:atc347@xxx.net] > >> > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 9:53 AM > >> > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >> > Subject: Re: RPM independence > >> > > >> > Howard the article is in the May 99 issue of GM High-Tech > Performance > >> > > >> > And the brand that uses Volumetric and other formulae instead of > look-up > >> > tables is known as Electromotive.... Probably heard of em? > HAHA!?? > >> > > >> > Keep me informed of your progress in this matter! > >> > > >> > LATER! > >> > > >> > Todd....!! > >> > > >> > Howard Wilkinson wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Todd: > >> > > I would be very interested in reading the article you > mentioned. > >> > > Please let me know if you find it. > >> > > My basic thought here is to emulate the working of the > Bosch > >> > > mechanical CIS fuel injection system electronically which would > allow > >> > > it to be modulated by feedback, but still yield a system simple > enough > >> > > to be operated by a very low cost controller. Injector timing > is > >> > > irrelevant, therefore injector firing rate is also irrelevant > within > >> > > the range above engine RPM. > >> > > Perhaps mathematical formulae are not adequate to control > fuel > >> > > delivery.... maybe lookup tables are necessary. The Bosch > mechanical > >> > > system used a shaped MAF to keep fuel flow which was > mechanically > >> > > controlled in line with the motion of the MAF actuator arm. > This put > >> > > the mathematical calculation into the profile of the MAF throat > which > >> > > was in effect a computer (a mechanical computer). It took far > more > >> > > intelligence in my opinion to design this one part than to > program > >> > > look up tables which can be done by trial and error, or by a > simple > >> > > feedback system. I believe I could sit here and flow chart out > and > >> > > write a program to generate the lookup tables based on > feedback, and > >> > > minimal programmer input. I'm just looking at different > possible > >> > > approaches to the problem of managing fuel delivery via > computer. > >> > > H.W. > >> > > > >> > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > From: Todd....!! > >> > > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >> > > > >> > > Date: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 1:15 PM > >> > > Subject: Re: RPM independence > >> > > > >> > > >Hello Howard, > >> > > > > >> > > >your theory is TOTALLY GREAT and acceptable, and a system has > alread > >> > > >ybeen created, produced, and marketed, and it's gone over wiht > a > >> > > pretty > >> > > >good fine tooth comb within on eof the laterChecvy Hi po mags > dealing > >> > > >with all of the diff types, makes, and brands of FI for just > about > >> > > any > >> > > >type engine! > >> > > > > >> > > >Will get the name of the mag, I know you already know about > the mag, > >> > > >just maybe not about the article(s) within this specific > issue? > >> > > > > >> > > >But the basic function of the type system I believe you are > referring > >> > > to > >> > > >is based upon the use of formulas instead of tables... I think > you > >> > > are > >> > > >right in line witht the way this REALLY advanced system is > designed > >> > > to > >> > > >function! > >> > > > > >> > > >Will post details later, (mag's at home)! > >> > > > > >> > > >LATER! > >> > > > > >> > > >Todd....!! > >> > > > > >> > > >Howard Wilkinson wrote: > >> > > >> > >> > > >> I have given more than a little thought to the possibility > of an > >> > > EFI > >> > > >> system that operated completely independently of engine RPM. > The > >> > > idea > >> > > >> being that as the injectors are batch fired anyway, the > timing is > >> > > >> irrelevant so long as the injectors fire at engine RPM or > more. > >> > > >> Such a system could be almost entirely MAF based. The > >> > > injectors > >> > > >> would begin at a very short pulse width, and simply increase > pulse > >> > > >> rate up to a set pulse rate where width would be increased > >> > > thereafter. > >> > > >> Such a system could be operated based on mathematical > formulae > >> > > rather > >> > > >> than on look up tables. A simple equation based on ECT > could > >> > > modify > >> > > >> the result for cold operation, and a TPS modifier would give > >> > > >> accelerator pump effect. Map should not be necessary as air > >> > > density > >> > > >> should directly effect MAF output. An O2 loop would handle > minor > >> > > >> dicrepancies. > >> > > >> A lot of the complexity of the common EFI systems comes > from > >> > > the > >> > > >> desire to fire the injectors once per revolution. Because > of RPM > >> > > >> dependence, the MAP, MAF, & TPS outputs are meaningful only > in the > >> > > >> context of RPM. Total fuel delivery per unit time is only > directly > >> > > >> related to MAF.... It is not closely related to RPM, > Throttle > >> > > >> Position, or Vacuum individually as it is to MAF. The MAF > tells us > >> > > >> how much fuel we must deliver per unit time, but the system > must > >> > > then > >> > > >> work out the pulse rate based on RPM, and pulse width for > that rate > >> > > to > >> > > >> achieve the desired delivery per unit time. > >> > > >> If we know that x amount of fuel is delivered at Y pulse > width > >> > > per > >> > > >> pulse, then it becomes a simple matter to determine how many > pulses > >> > > >> per unit time are required to deliver that amount of fuel. > At some > >> > > >> point pulse rate reaches a max practical limit, and at that > point > >> > > >> pulse rate can become constant, and pulse width may be > modified > >> > > above > >> > > >> that point to control fuel delivery. The fewer factors you > are > >> > > >> changing the simple the program becomes. > >> > > >> Perhaps this is a simple minded vew of the process, but > then > >> > > I'm a > >> > > >> simple minded sort of guy.... I am of the "KISS" school of > thought. > >> > > >> H.W. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #281 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".