DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, May 22 1999 Volume 04 : Number 300 In this issue: Re: Simple Injection Questions Re: alternative engines, now Hemi Re: alternative engines, now Hemi Re: alternative engines, now Hemi Re: Simple Injection Questions Re: Simple Injection Questions Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model Re: alternative engines, now Hemi Re: alternative engines, now Hemi Re: Simple Injection Questions Re: Simple Injection Questions Re: Simple Injection Questions Message from CSH. HQ Re: alternative engines, now Hemi Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model Re: alternative engines, now Hemi Re: O2 Volts Re: Message from CSH. HQ Re: alternative engines, now Hemi Re: Message from CSH. HQ See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:03:30 -0700 From: "Fran and Bud" Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions EFI Trivia FWIW Cutler (who won one of the early magazine EFI Shootouts) was bought by Hi Rel a year or two ago. Hi Rel was bought by Holley within the last year. When I bought my Cutler manifold, they were only making stuff for boats. I was told that the self learn capability required a lot of time at each specific load condition and boats were closer to that than cars. Cars with a duty cycle of start, accelerate, shift. shift, shift, backoff stop, etc. didn't provide a chance for the system to learn and I was told that a later version of the system would again address cars - I dont think it ever happened before Cutler was sold. Thats why I'm blending a 7727 with my Cutler and other PFI parts. Bud - ---------- >From: "Bruce Plecan" >To: >Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions >Date: Fri, May 21, 1999, 11:11 AM > > >Alpha-N means the EFI just uses Throttle Posistion, and rpm to figure fuel >and/or timing. > PE is Power enrichment. > Self tuning is a dream for really high performance. There is no way to >optimize tuning other than by testing. Self compensating for slight >changes, maybe.. If you change the volumetic effeciency, the you'll have to >test to find best Air Fuel Ratio, and to be best, would also, be optimizing >timing. > "Self-Tunig", is a buzz word. Compensating does exist in the world as we >know it. > Self Tuning was done by the Cutler EFI Co., in FL. But, they are out of >business as far as I know. The problem was loading the engine down long >enough at one time for the computer to learn things. Talked with a guy who >had done several of the installations, and after 4, he was finished trying. >Took many hours on dyno, and 2 applications were boats. Not enough waterway >for unlimited WOT testing. > Single cylinder closed loop might be a real challenge. The time from >cycle to cycle is so long.. To get any averages you'd be using waiting days >for when to apply the correction, unless you go event by event and at low >rpm you might wind up with stalling before an odd event is averaged out. >Singles can be very erratic at idle, from what Cub work i did years ago. > A basic Alpha-N, with barometric, and Intake air Temp compensation would >be about as sweet and complex as I'd think would be practicle. > Probably best to use a "fixed" pullse at idle (other than for the above >corrections), and some pots for accleration, transistion (accleration, and >decleration), and WOT tuning. > Might use a WB O2 for just seeing where you are, rather than close looping >it. >Just my 02 cents >Grumpy > >| > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow >| > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can >think >| > of is alpha-n, rpm and throttle position. It can be mapped to a lookup >| Ok, MAP/MAF = manifold air pressure/flow right?What's alpha-n? >| > table and then corrected for temperature and exhaust O2. But why do you >| > insist on closed loop? As far as I know, that is most useful for making >a 3 >| > way cat work. Without a cat, you actually want a lean cruise and rich >PE. >| > Neither of which are well indicated with a normal O2 sensor. >| What's PE? The reason I want some sort of closed loop is that in bike >| applications, people are always changing things like different exhaust, >air >| filters, modified airbox, etc. I want the injection system to compensate >and >| I've been instructed that MAF with O2 will compensate for modifications >like >| this. >| > To answer your second question, no, you don't need to include ignition >| > timing although there are advantages associated with electronic spark >| > timing. >| Well, most bikes already have CDI now so it might be pretty easy to take >over >| triggering. What are the advantages/disadvantages? >| Thanks! >| Beez > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:21:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi On Fri, 21 May 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > Makes ya wonder why they don't just use the piston as the electrode and > the head as the ground or vice versus and omit the spark plug all > together due to not having a need for em anymore! > SAAB did this a while ago...there was a picture[s] in SAE Engineering last year. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:21:01 -0700 From: Bill Edgeworth Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > > > > >Didn't Popular Science already 'do' the plastic engine article quite a > >few years back(10-15 years ago?) > > I seem to recall an article in Plastics Engineering a number of years ago where a cart team was testing carbon fiber connecting rods. And maybe in the same issue ceramic topped plastic pistons were also being researched. Bill Edgeworth ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:24:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi On Fri, 21 May 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > Are ya sure that the cranks don't interchange? > > What's the diff? Besides the Hemi having 8 flywheel bolt holes vs the > 440/383's 6 flywheel bolt holes > > Are the main journals a different size? or the rod journals? what? > > The stroke is 3.75, same as a 440... > They will fit. the counterweights are different, of course. > And as for the caps, jsut cuz there's an extra bolt hole in the main > caps for the cross bolt, does that mean ya still can't use em in the > 440? You could use them, too. Most of them were malleable iron. There is no provision in the regular B block for the cross bolts... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 20:46:30 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions Gee, maybe Holley has something in the works I hadn't heard about their Cutler tie...... Doc | EFI Trivia FWIW | Cutler (who won one of the early magazine EFI Shootouts) was bought by Hi | Rel a year or two ago. | Hi Rel was bought by Holley within the last year. | When I bought my Cutler manifold, they were only making stuff for boats. | I was told that the self learn capability required a lot of time at each | specific load condition and boats were closer to that than cars. Cars with | a duty cycle of start, accelerate, shift. shift, shift, backoff stop, etc. | didn't provide a chance for the system to learn and I was told that a later | version of the system would again address cars - I dont think it ever | happened before Cutler was sold. | Thats why I'm blending a 7727 with my Cutler and other PFI parts. | Bud | >From: "Bruce Plecan" | >Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions | >Alpha-N means the EFI just uses Throttle Posistion, and rpm to figure fuel | >and/or timing. | > PE is Power enrichment. | > Self tuning is a dream for really high performance. There is no way to | >optimize tuning other than by testing. Self compensating for slight | >changes, maybe.. If you change the volumetic effeciency, the you'll have to | >test to find best Air Fuel Ratio, and to be best, would also, be optimizing | >timing. | > "Self-Tunig", is a buzz word. Compensating does exist in the world as we | >know it. | > Self Tuning was done by the Cutler EFI Co., in FL. But, they are out of | >business as far as I know. The problem was loading the engine down long | >enough at one time for the computer to learn things. Talked with a guy who | >had done several of the installations, and after 4, he was finished trying. | >Took many hours on dyno, and 2 applications were boats. Not enough waterway | >for unlimited WOT testing. | > Single cylinder closed loop might be a real challenge. The time from | >cycle to cycle is so long.. To get any averages you'd be using waiting days | >for when to apply the correction, unless you go event by event and at low | >rpm you might wind up with stalling before an odd event is averaged out. | >Singles can be very erratic at idle, from what Cub work i did years ago. | > A basic Alpha-N, with barometric, and Intake air Temp compensation would | >be about as sweet and complex as I'd think would be practicle. | > Probably best to use a "fixed" pullse at idle (other than for the above | >corrections), and some pots for accleration, transistion (accleration, and | >decleration), and WOT tuning. | > Might use a WB O2 for just seeing where you are, rather than close looping | >it. | >Just my 02 cents | >Grumpy | >| > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow | >| > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can | >think | >| > of is alpha-n, rpm and throttle position. It can be mapped to a lookup | >| Ok, MAP/MAF = manifold air pressure/flow right?What's alpha-n? | >| > table and then corrected for temperature and exhaust O2. But why do you | >| > insist on closed loop? As far as I know, that is most useful for making | >a 3 | >| > way cat work. Without a cat, you actually want a lean cruise and rich | >PE. | >| > Neither of which are well indicated with a normal O2 sensor. | >| What's PE? The reason I want some sort of closed loop is that in bike | >| applications, people are always changing things like different exhaust, | >air | >| filters, modified airbox, etc. I want the injection system to compensate | >and | >| I've been instructed that MAF with O2 will compensate for modifications | >like | >| this. | >| > To answer your second question, no, you don't need to include ignition | >| > timing although there are advantages associated with electronic spark | >| > timing. | >| Well, most bikes already have CDI now so it might be pretty easy to take | >over | >| triggering. What are the advantages/disadvantages? | >| Thanks! | >| Beez ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:45:48 -0500 From: Steve Gorkowski Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions That was the trick we did in high school as the PE instructor was kicking back on the folding chair half sleeping. We didn't damage intake but the muffler split wide open. You have to let it cost a long time to get a big bang. Steve Don.F.Broadus@xxx.com wrote: > The main fear if you cut the ignition is that the fuel will build up in the > intake manifold or mufflers, when you switch the ignition back on... BOOM > there goes the intake or muffler. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: William T Wilson [SMTP:fluffy@xxx.org] > > Sent: Friday, May 21, 1999 3:41 PM > > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > > Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions > > > > On Fri, 21 May 1999, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > > > It would be my preference to cut spark rather than fuel, simply > > > because cutting fuel would result in a lean condition at higher RPMs > > > > You'd think so, but many production rev limiters work this way. I know > > there's a reason for why they do it this way, but I cannot remember what > > it is. > > > > In any case, a fuel cut doesn't creat detonation provided you really cut > > the fuel off all at once. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:01:22 -0400 From: "C. Brooks" Subject: Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model Is this true of forced induction motors, two stroke motors etc.? I've seen this equation before but I've always assumed (Yeah I know, I know...) that it was for a 4 stroke normally aspirated motor. Charles Brooks - -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bradley To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Friday, May 21, 1999 8:45 PM Subject: Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model > Wrong. The torque curve could very easily be rising, >HP=torque(lb*ft)*rpm/5252. They always cross there. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:39:18 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model I Is this true of forced induction motors, two stroke motors etc.? I've seen | this equation before but I've always assumed (Yeah I know, I know...) that | it was for a 4 stroke normally aspirated motor. Steam Engines Water wheels Electric Motors Grumpy | | Charles Brooks | | -----Original Message----- | From: Bill Bradley | To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> | Date: Friday, May 21, 1999 8:45 PM | Subject: Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model | | | | > Wrong. The torque curve could very easily be rising, | >HP=torque(lb*ft)*rpm/5252. They always cross there. | > | | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:02:48 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi That was Polimotor. It used Torlon(R) for the block and heads but had steel lined combustion chamber, exhaust port and cylinder. Gary Derian > > >You're correct Fred, > > > >Didn't Popular Science already 'do' the plastic engine article quite a > >few years back(10-15 years ago?) > > > >I forgot about it... > > > > > Yes, it was based on the Ford 2.3L 4 Cyl engine. It was also raced for a > time in IMSA in a GTU car. > > Harold ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:05:22 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi Engine research using ceramics is headed toward an adiabatic engine. That is one which needs no cooling system. This keeps the fire hotter during the power stroke since no heat is absorbed by a cooling system. I would think this would actually increase propensity for detonation. Gary Derian > > I'm actually waiting patiently for ceramics and composites to become > "regular". Most of these materials don't retain or reflect heat as well > as aluminum/iron/steel, and certainly weight a lot less. > > Less heat retention = less detonation = more boost :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:07:25 -0700 From: Christopher J Beasley Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions Bruce Plecan wrote:snip > | > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow > | > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can > thi Ok, what about putting the flow or pressure sensors on the intake of the airbox. Wouldn't that be effective in averaging out the flow?Beez ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:08:43 -0700 From: Christopher J Beasley Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions So you can actually do OK just with those two things? Would it be as good as or better than a carb? b Chew, Aaron wrote: > Alpha-n is a throttle-position and rpm fuel map control strategy. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Christopher J Beasley [mailto:chris_beasley@xxx.com] > Sent: Friday, May 21, 1999 1:43 PM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions > > Gary Derian wrote: > > > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow > > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can think > > of is alpha-n, rpm and throttle position. It can be mapped to a lookup > > Ok, MAP/MAF = manifold air pressure/flow right?What's alpha-n? > > > table and then corrected for temperature and exhaust O2. But why do you > > insist on closed loop? As far as I know, that is most useful for making a > 3 > > way cat work. Without a cat, you actually want a lean cruise and rich PE. > > Neither of which are well indicated with a normal O2 sensor. > > What's PE? The reason I want some sort of closed loop is that in bike > applications, people are always changing things like different exhaust, air > filters, modified airbox, etc. I want the injection system to compensate > and > I've been instructed that MAF with O2 will compensate for modifications like > this. > > > > > > > To answer your second question, no, you don't need to include ignition > > timing although there are advantages associated with electronic spark > > timing. > > Well, most bikes already have CDI now so it might be pretty easy to take > over > triggering. What are the advantages/disadvantages? > Thanks! > Beez ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:29:33 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions | Bruce Plecan wrote:snip | > | > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air flow | > | > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF. The simplest system I can | > thi | Ok, what about putting the flow or pressure sensors on the intake of the | airbox. Wouldn't that be effective in averaging out the flow?Beez Only if the air box was restictive enough to have a pressure drop at idle. But, that would have to be limiting WOT air flow. I'd really look to keep this very simple. You can always engineer more into it. But, to do alot of engineering, and then bypass alot of it seems like a shame, IMHO. Work on the air temp and barometic corrections for the transistions, and steady state conditions, then use a basic strategy, ie Alpha-N. Use a EGT for WOT, or a Wide Band O2 for monitoring AFR. Closed loop only if/when ya run out of other things to do. If you go thru the archives looking for tables, and maps you'll see you have enough of a chalenge. Grumpy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:21:08 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Message from CSH. HQ Well, since most of y'all, I'd call pals, and some friends, rather than forgeting someone, I'll let y'all know whats going on, and this has no EFI/automobile content. Anytime after Tuesday, CSH, HQ maybe closed for a while, from 1 week to 3 months, possibly longer. Lots of variables, but here are the biggies. I need some new parts, and, I have been accepted as being a good host. I'm waiting for a double lung transplant (monday is for final testing to see, if the heart will be done, also). I have a genetic condition called Alpha-1 Antitrysin Deficency, and the heart do to wear and tear from the work caused by the Alpha-1.. Also on Monday, I have a medical procedure to be done, and when the results are back from those I'll be leaving home, room available to be hospitialized for some extensive Physical Therapy, and the surgery, depending on the donor situation at that time. A couple folks have neighbor's phone number, and if anything major happens, y'all will hear about it. This may seem premature, but things have been a emotional roller coaster, and I wanted to write this, before being to wrapped up in things, or hurrying too much. I have checks out to all, that I have commitments with, so just ship things like normal, since things are not being abandened here. It will probably will be a week from Tues before much happens but, I was put on notice that the short term plans should be made for this, time table. Bruce ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:25:29 -0400 From: Chris Conlon Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi At 10:05 PM 5/21/99 -0400, Gary Derian wrote: >Engine research using ceramics is headed toward an adiabatic engine. That >is one which needs no cooling system. This keeps the fire hotter during the >power stroke since no heat is absorbed by a cooling system. I would think >this would actually increase propensity for detonation. My *guess* is it's the other way around, at least in a 4 stroke. The inside of the combustion chamber will be hotter right after the burn than it would be in a metal engine, due to the lower heat capacity and higher thermal resistance. But by the same token, the incoming charge will be able to cool those same surfaces more than if they had a low thermal resistance path to a big mass of hot, high heat capacity metal. I know a couple of people have reported reduced detonation with some of the diy coatings. Has anyone had the opposite result? Chris C. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 01:06:13 -0400 (EDT) From: William T Wilson Subject: Re: Mr Helmholz - simple model On Fri, 21 May 1999, C. Brooks wrote: > Is this true of forced induction motors, two stroke motors etc.? I've > seen this equation before but I've always assumed (Yeah I know, I > know...) that it was for a 4 stroke normally aspirated motor. It hasn't got anything to do with the type of engine, but is an artifact of the way torque and HP are calculated. The point where the curves cross will change, however, if you go from US-style measurements (HP and ft.lbs) to international/scientific measurements (watts and newton-meters). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 01:11:19 -0400 (EDT) From: William T Wilson Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi On Fri, 21 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > Engine research using ceramics is headed toward an adiabatic engine. > That is one which needs no cooling system. This keeps the fire hotter > during the power stroke since no heat is absorbed by a cooling system. > I would think this would actually increase propensity for detonation. It doesn't, necessarily, because the nice thing about an adiabatic engine is that having a hot fire during the power stroke hasn't got anything to do with the temperature inside the cylider during the intake/compression stroke. If the engine needs no cooling system, then that means that heat isn't building up inside it (which is good, because all that energy can go into useful work instead of out the radiator). Since heat isn't building up inside it, that means all the generated heat is getting blown out the exhaust, and the inside temperatures are nice and cold when the next charge comes through. Ceramics have extremely high tolerance for heat, and relatively low heat transfer rate. Which means that heat generated in the power/compression strokes doesn't have *time* to get transferred into the engine itself. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:58:38 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: O2 Volts >FYI - I've SEEN my headers glow while idling at night.... > >I'm pretty SURE they glow while at WOT and any where inbetween.... > >How hot are headers when they begin to glow? Is there some sorta >formula or somethin to tell us this, i've never heard of it, but I bet >there is a specific temp when a specific metal (Like Iron, FE) glows... > >LATER! > >Todd....!! > Some engineering or metalurgical manuals will have color charts for telling temperature by color, Todd. It is fairly accurate. Greg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:17:44 -0700 From: garfield@xxx.com (Gar Willis) Subject: Re: Message from CSH. HQ On Fri, 21 May 1999 23:21:08 -0400, "Bruce Plecan" wrote: > Anytime after Tuesday, CSH, HQ maybe closed for a while, from 1 week to 3 >months, possibly longer. Good luck and God speed, Dr. Pelican. BTW, is that a MAP or a MAF system you'll be getting? B) Gar ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 03:15:25 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > power stroke since no heat is absorbed by a cooling system. I would think > this would actually increase propensity for detonation. I'm speaking out of my ass here, so hold your nose. I would *thing* or *guess* that even with the higher heat inside the combustion chamber, if ceramics and polimers and composites don't absorb heat, when the explosion leaves out the exhaust valve, little heat would be retained, unlike iron, steel, and other metals, thus detonation might not be a big deal. Though again, I'm thinking aloud here. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:21:13 +0300 From: "Tom Bennett" Subject: Re: Message from CSH. HQ Good Luck Bruce. regards Tom - ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Plecan To: Sent: Saturday, May 22, 1999 6:21 AM Subject: Message from CSH. HQ > Well, since most of y'all, I'd call pals, and some friends, rather than > forgeting someone, I'll let y'all know whats going on, and this has no > EFI/automobile content. > Anytime after Tuesday, CSH, HQ maybe closed for a while, from 1 week to 3 > months, possibly longer. Lots of variables, but here are the biggies. > I need some new parts, and, I have been accepted as being a good host. > I'm waiting for a double lung transplant (monday is for final testing to > see, if the heart will be done, also). I have a genetic condition called > Alpha-1 Antitrysin Deficency, and the heart do to wear and tear from the > work caused by the Alpha-1.. > Also on Monday, I have a medical procedure to be done, and when the > results are back from those I'll be leaving home, room available to be > hospitialized for some extensive Physical Therapy, and the surgery, > depending on the donor situation at that time. > A couple folks have neighbor's phone number, and if anything major > happens, y'all will hear about it. > This may seem premature, but things have been a emotional roller coaster, > and I wanted to write this, before being to wrapped up in things, or > hurrying too much. > I have checks out to all, that I have commitments with, so just ship > things like normal, since things are not being abandened here. It will > probably will be a week from Tues before much happens but, I was put on > notice that the short term plans should be made for this, time table. > Bruce > > ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #300 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".