DIY_EFI Digest          Monday, May 24 1999          Volume 04 : Number 302



In this issue:

	Re: DIY  FTP site
	Re: EGR?
	NTK UEGO response
	Re: Where to start
	Re: Simple Injection Questions
	Re: Where to start
	Re: Simple Injection Questions
	Re: NTK UEGO response
	Re: EGR?
	Re: NTK UEGO response
	Re: EGR?
	Re: EGR?
	Re: NTK UEGO response
	Re: EGR?
	ECU programming
	Re: NTK UEGO response
	Ford ECUs
	Re: NTK UEGO response
	Ford ECUs
	Re: alternative engines, now Hemi
	Re: Simple Injection Questions
	Re: EGR?
	Re: EGR?
	Re: EGR?
	Re: EGR?

See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the 
DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 09:13:43 -0400
From: "C. Brooks" <cbrooks1@xxx.net>
Subject: Re: DIY  FTP site

Thanks for the help, I'm able to access the site for uploads now.

Charles Brooks

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 09:18:15 -0400
From: Shannen Durphey <shannen@xxx.com>
Subject: Re: EGR?

Dave Williams wrote:
> 
> -> Exhaust is an inert gas as far as an engine is concerned.
<snip>
> 
>  On fuel-injected GM V8 pickup trucks, disabling the EGR valve will cost
> 2-3 mpg, right off the top.  The first test a line mechanic does when a
> customer brings a vehicle in with a lost-mileage complaint is an EGR
> valve test.
It is?  And here I always asked "When was the last tune up" as the
first test. ; )

Shannen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 09:36:33 -0400
From: "C. Brooks" <cbrooks1@xxx.net>
Subject: NTK UEGO response

There is now a file on the FTP site called NTK_UEGO.JPG

It is the UEGO controller output as a function of A/F ratio for the model#
TC-6110A.

There are three control boxes available from NGK

TC-6110A Lean/Rich measurement for A/F ratios between 10:1 and 30:1
TC-6110C Lean measurement for A/F ratios between 14:1 and 55:1
TC-6110D Rich measurement for A/F ratios between 10:1 and 15:1

Charles Brooks

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 10:27:41 -0700
From: rr <RRauscher@xxx.com>
Subject: Re: Where to start

First, go here and download the Tuning Tips for '747,
and the Programming 101 Guide:

http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/oem/gm/index.html

Then from this link, click on the archive link, and search
away for anything of interest:

http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/diy_efi/

This should get you going,

BobR.


Geffro wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks
> Anyone got a website with info on the basics of programming proms
> eg. What is an emulator ? How to use it ? This is a broadcast code.
> This is a calibration code. This is a checksum. This is how it all works
> Ya get the idea
> TIA
> Geoff

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 11:15:38 -0400
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E9l=E8ne?= Villemure" <memvive@xxx.ca>
Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions

Bruce,

I wish you the very best through your stay in hospital. I was shocked to learn
that you needed such serious medical interventions! But Matti and I wish you a
quick and peaceful recovery.

Fare well,

Bruce Plecan a écrit:

> Gee, maybe Holley has something in the works <wink><wink>
> I hadn't heard about their Cutler tie......
> Doc
>
> | EFI Trivia FWIW
> | Cutler (who won one of the early magazine EFI Shootouts) was bought by Hi
> | Rel a year or two ago.
> | Hi Rel was bought by Holley within the last year.
> | When I bought my Cutler manifold, they were only making stuff for boats.
> | I was told that the self learn capability required a lot of time at each
> | specific load condition and boats were closer to that than cars.  Cars
> with
> | a duty cycle of start, accelerate, shift. shift, shift, backoff stop, etc.
> | didn't provide a chance for the system to learn and I was told that a
> later
> | version of the system would again address cars - I dont think it ever
> | happened before Cutler was sold.
> | Thats why I'm blending a 7727 with my Cutler and other PFI parts.
> | Bud
> | >From: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp@xxx.net>
> | >Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions
> | >Alpha-N  means the EFI just uses Throttle Posistion, and rpm to figure
> fuel
> | >and/or timing.
> | >  PE  is Power enrichment.
> | >  Self tuning is a dream for really high performance.  There is no way to
> | >optimize tuning other than by testing.  Self compensating for slight
> | >changes, maybe..  If you change the volumetic effeciency, the you'll have
> to
> | >test to find best Air Fuel Ratio, and to be best, would also, be
> optimizing
> | >timing.
> | >  "Self-Tunig", is a buzz word.  Compensating does exist in the world as
> we
> | >know it.
> | >  Self Tuning was done by the Cutler EFI Co., in FL.  But, they are out
> of
> | >business as far as I know.  The problem was loading the engine down long
> | >enough at one time for the computer to learn things.   Talked with a guy
> who
> | >had done several of the installations, and after 4, he was finished
> trying.
> | >Took many hours on dyno, and 2 applications were boats.  Not enough
> waterway
> | >for unlimited WOT testing.
> | >  Single cylinder closed loop might be a real challenge.  The time from
> | >cycle to cycle is so long..  To get any averages you'd be using waiting
> days
> | >for when to apply the correction, unless you go event by event and at low
> | >rpm you might wind up with stalling before an odd event is averaged out.
> | >Singles can be very erratic at idle, from what Cub work i did years ago.
> | >  A basic Alpha-N, with barometric, and Intake air Temp compensation
> would
> | >be about as sweet and complex as I'd think would be practicle.
> | >  Probably best to use a "fixed" pullse at idle (other than for the above
> | >corrections), and some pots for accleration, transistion (accleration,
> and
> | >decleration), and WOT tuning.
> | >  Might use a WB O2 for just seeing where you are, rather than close
> looping
> | >it.
> | >Just my 02 cents
> | >Grumpy
> | >| > I think a single cylinder engine will have a very discontinuous air
> flow
> | >| > which effectively eliminates MAP and MAF.  The simplest system I can
> | >think
> | >| > of is alpha-n, rpm and throttle position.  It can be mapped to a
> lookup
> | >| Ok, MAP/MAF = manifold air pressure/flow right?What's alpha-n?
> | >| > table and then corrected for temperature and exhaust O2.  But why do
> you
> | >| > insist on closed loop?  As far as I know, that is most useful for
> making
> | >a 3
> | >| > way cat work.  Without a cat, you actually want a lean cruise and
> rich
> | >PE.
> | >| > Neither of which are well indicated with a normal O2 sensor.
> | >| What's PE?  The reason I want some sort of closed loop is that in bike
> | >| applications, people are always changing things like different exhaust,
> | >air
> | >| filters, modified airbox, etc.  I want the injection system to
> compensate
> | >and
> | >| I've been instructed that MAF with O2 will compensate for modifications
> | >like
> | >| this.
> | >| > To answer your second question, no, you don't need to include
> ignition
> | >| > timing although there are advantages associated with electronic spark
> | >| > timing.
> | >| Well, most bikes already have CDI now so it might be pretty easy to
> take
> | >over
> | >| triggering.  What are the advantages/disadvantages?
> | >| Thanks!
> | >| Beez

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:15:46 +0300
From: "Tom Bennett" <tcb123@xxx.qa>
Subject: Re: Where to start

Hi,
Try this!
http://efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/

regards
Tom

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: Geffro <geoffsue@xxx.au>
To: <diy_efi@xxx.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 1999 3:30 AM
Subject: Where to start


> Hi Folks
> Anyone got a website with info on the basics of programming proms
> eg. What is an emulator ? How to use it ? This is a broadcast code.
> This is a calibration code. This is a checksum. This is how it all works 
> Ya get the idea
> TIA
> Geoff
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 09:08:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions

- -> boost.  I've heard all the theories about turning the fuel off
- -> <cleanly> then back on, but they don't seem to apply with 16psi of
- -> boost.. There is *significant* detonation as the injectors come back
- -> on..

 Mitsubishi uses fuel cut on its turbo fours.  They don't detonate after
fuel resumes.

 Must be a GM programming problem.
                                                                                             

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 09:38:18 -0700
From: garfield@xxx.com (Gar Willis)
Subject: Re: NTK UEGO response

On Sun, 23 May 1999 09:36:33 -0400, "C. Brooks" <cbrooks1@xxx.net> wrote:

>There is now a file on the FTP site called NTK_UEGO.JPG
>
>It is the UEGO controller output as a function of A/F ratio for the model#
>TC-6110A.
>
>There are three control boxes available from NGK
>
>TC-6110A Lean/Rich measurement for A/F ratios between 10:1 and 30:1
>TC-6110C Lean measurement for A/F ratios between 14:1 and 55:1
>TC-6110D Rich measurement for A/F ratios between 10:1 and 15:1

What you see there is a curve that has remained the same since the TC-6000.

Also, everybody should understand that's NOT a voltage out curve of the sensor,
of course, since it's a current-pump device, but rather the result of the
equivalent R of the current-pump's feedback circuit in the NTK interface box,
multiplied times the Ipump. The two roughly linear slopes on either side of
stoich (this point of zero pump current is set in the NTK boxes to fall on 3.0V
out) represent the cases of the pump having to add or extract O2 from the
measurement cavity, and since it takes a diff. amount of current per amount of
O2 to pump, depending on whether you're removing or adding O2, you get those two
diff. slopes on either side of stoich.

Just wanna emphasize that these output curves and model #s Charles has post are
for a complete NTK interface box/system, not sensors per se. Thas why he said
"UEGO *controller*" output in his post.

Gar

P.S. The *shape* of these curves is just like EGOR-the-module's output (because
the shape is inherent to the sensor), although the output voltage range and
stoichpoint can be altered as you wish. EGOR-the-meter will have linearized
them, and allow programming the range of AFR inspection and output voltage, as
well as the crossover voltage for stoich. Hadta get that lil advert in, ya know.
B)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 10:04:39 -0700
From: "soren" <soren@xxx.com>
Subject: Re: EGR?

>>The first test a line mechanic does when a
>> customer brings a vehicle in with a lost-mileage complaint is an EGR
>> valve test.

>It is?  And here I always asked "When was the last tune up" as the
>first test. ; )


Me too!  Unless the car had always been serviced at the dealership on a
regular basis, then I always look for a mouse-nest in the air filter box
first.

Soren

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 14:25:06 -0500
From: Steve Gorkowski <kb4mxo@xxx.net>
Subject: Re: NTK UEGO response

Charles
Are your graphs saying if you buy there meter you have to make the data linear
after it gets to your pc and they want over $1000 dollars? Must me nice to be
the only game in town .

Steve

C. Brooks wrote:

> There is now a file on the FTP site called NTK_UEGO.JPG
>
> It is the UEGO controller output as a function of A/F ratio for the model#
> TC-6110A.
>
> There are three control boxes available from NGK
>
> TC-6110A Lean/Rich measurement for A/F ratios between 10:1 and 30:1
> TC-6110C Lean measurement for A/F ratios between 14:1 and 55:1
> TC-6110D Rich measurement for A/F ratios between 10:1 and 15:1
>
> Charles Brooks

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 15:44:56 -0700
From: rr <RRauscher@xxx.com>
Subject: Re: EGR?

soren wrote:
> 
> >>The first test a line mechanic does when a
> >> customer brings a vehicle in with a lost-mileage complaint is an EGR
> >> valve test.
> 
> >It is?  And here I always asked "When was the last tune up" as the
> >first test. ; )
> 
> Me too!  Unless the car had always been serviced at the dealership on a
> regular basis, then I always look for a mouse-nest in the air filter box
> first.
> 
> Soren


I've had that problem, put a wire screen over the opening. So now their
camping out on top of the manifold, under the plenum. I'm just praying
that they don't get hungry and eat the injector wiring (efi content).

BobR.

- --

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 16:30:34 -0400
From: "Bruce Plecan" <nacelp@xxx.net>
Subject: Re: EGR?

City Folk, round here we ask if Cindy did the math.
If not we get the math team out and double check it.
Then sometimes, Grumpy does the refueling and driving, then the Math team
takes over.   When gas was less then a quarter a gallon, didn't worry much
about such things.  Course now with a new fangled confuser in the car ya
gotta.
Doc

| soren wrote:
| > >>The first test a line mechanic does when a
| > >> customer brings a vehicle in with a lost-mileage complaint is an EGR
| > >> valve test.
| > >It is?  And here I always asked "When was the last tune up" as the
| > >first test. ; )
| > Me too!  Unless the car had always been serviced at the dealership on a
| > regular basis, then I always look for a mouse-nest in the air filter box
| > first.
| > Soren
| I've had that problem, put a wire screen over the opening. So now their
| camping out on top of the manifold, under the plenum. I'm just praying
| that they don't get hungry and eat the injector wiring (efi content).
| BobR.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:30:47 -0400
From: "C. Brooks" <cbrooks1@xxx.net>
Subject: Re: NTK UEGO response

Thanks Gar, guess I should have emphasized that a little more. I saw your
post on EGOR. When do you think you will release the price for it? I'm
asking because I'm planning on buying the NTK box at the end of the month.

Charles Brooks

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gar Willis <garfield@xxx.com>
To: diy_efi@xxx.edu>
Date: Sunday, May 23, 1999 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: NTK UEGO response



>
>Just wanna emphasize that these output curves and model #s Charles has post
are
>for a complete NTK interface box/system, not sensors per se. Thas why he
said
>"UEGO *controller*" output in his post.
>
>Gar
>
>P.S. The *shape* of these curves is just like EGOR-the-module's output
(because
>the shape is inherent to the sensor), although the output voltage range and
>stoichpoint can be altered as you wish. EGOR-the-meter will have linearized
>them, and allow programming the range of AFR inspection and output voltage,
as
>well as the crossover voltage for stoich. Hadta get that lil advert in, ya
know.
>B)
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:01:08 -0400
From: Shannen Durphey <shannen@xxx.com>
Subject: Re: EGR?

soren wrote:
> 
> >>The first test a line mechanic does when a
> >> customer brings a vehicle in with a lost-mileage complaint is an EGR
> >> valve test.
> 
> >It is?  And here I always asked "When was the last tune up" as the
> >first test. ; )
> 
> Me too!  Unless the car had always been serviced at the dealership on a
> regular basis, then I always look for a mouse-nest in the air filter box
> first.
> 
> Soren
Cute.  I've seen lots of plug wire boots chewed on by mice.  They love
to get up around the dizzy cap on the older pickups and chew on the
silicone.  Leads to some honest "It was fine when I parked it"
stories.
Shannen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:23:42 +0200
From: "=?iso-8859-1?B?TOlvbmFyZCBGculjaGV0?=" <nakapuff@xxx.fr>
Subject: ECU programming

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEA246.40AAD320
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Where can I find a "free" software to programm an eprom for my clio 16S =
car......free.....or nicely offered by someone....

nakapuff@xxx.fr


- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEA246.40AAD320
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Where can I find a &quot;free&quot; =
software to=20
programm an eprom for my clio 16S car......free.....or nicely offered by =

someone....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:nakapuff@xxx.fr</A></=
FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEA246.40AAD320--

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 16:55:35 -0700
From: garfield@xxx.com (Gar Willis)
Subject: Re: NTK UEGO response

On Sun, 23 May 1999 14:25:06 -0500, Steve Gorkowski <kb4mxo@xxx.net> wrote:

>...if you buy there meter you have to make the data linear
>after it gets to your pc and they want over $1000 dollars? Must me nice to be
>the only game in town .

Huh? They are not the only game in town, nor is that even a "meter" the curve
refers to. Both Horiba and E.C.M. sell interfaces OR meters, both that have
linearized AFR-to-Vout curves. The so-called "NTK UEGO Controller" is NOT a
meter. It's like EGOR-the-module, it's a basic "interface".

I think the reason the NTK "interfaces/controllers" are the way they are, is
that historically, when the papers first describing their sensor were published,
they discussed a pump-current to voltage translation that was a direct mapping
from the current to Vout. The interface wasn't designed with direct-reading of
AFR, or logging, or ease of computer interfacing in mind, so much as directly
reflecting the electrical characteristics of the sensor, which was after all
what they were touting.

Course, if you look at it another way, the NTK "Controller" is the cheapest
low-end NTK UEGO equipment available to date; the E.C.M and Horiba devices are
roughly double the NTK price; that is, until EGOR becomes available. B)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:00:41 -0700
From: mike@xxx.com (Mike DiMeco)
Subject: Ford ECUs

Does anyone have Ford ECU knowledge?
I have a 1990 Mustang 5.0 LX, AOD, 3:08 rear.

I need information on fuel and spark tables and formulas,
and also fan temp. and TCC lockup.

Do the Fords have an EPROM or PROM? Can I desolder it to
program, or will I need to scrap it and buy DFI?

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:17:56 -0700
From: garfield@xxx.com (Gar Willis)
Subject: Re: NTK UEGO response

On Sun, 23 May 1999 17:30:47 -0400, "C. Brooks" <cbrooks1@xxx.net> wrote:

>Thanks Gar, guess I should have emphasized that a little more.

Oh I dunno, probly most everyone caught the drift; I was just tryna head off the
few stray neophytes. The NTK product, and the whole situation with the exclusive
rights to make meters by Horiba, coupled with the odd situation with E.C.M makes
both the products and their description kinda an odd crazy-quiltish affair,
methinks.

>I saw your
>post on EGOR. When do you think you will release the price for it? I'm
>asking because I'm planning on buying the NTK box at the end of the month.

We have to accomplish two things before that can happen: (1) finish the move
into our new building, and (2) get closure with the mfg. company that's gonna be
making the meters (the meters, not the modules) on THEIR pricing structure and
rollout schedule. It's not really gonna effect the EGOR-the-module price, that's
already been set actually, but we can't announce the module until they're ready
to announce the meter product availability & pricing.

I mentioned to someone privately, and can maybe say this much about the price.
The MODULE (please note everyone, I'm talkin now about EGOR-the-module) will be
priced with the goal of making it possible for any experimenter to build either
a WOT/closed-loop engine management setup OR a rudimentary AFR meter, using
EGOR-the-module, for $350 or less (had to bump it up $50 due to inflation :),
*including* the Honda sensor (yes, the $350 allowance INCLUDES the Honda sensor
cost; altho it appears we won't be selling them, the cost of buying one from
your local Honda dealer IS included in that $350 figure). Now, since yous guys
should know roughly how much a Honda/NTK sensor costs, and how much a handful of
parts, LEDs or LCDs, etc. cost, you can probly guess roughly what the MODULE is
gonna havta cost for you to be able to build yer own complete stuff for <$350.

You will see that the assembled meter will ALSO be aggressively priced to kick
competitive butt with the NTK-interface, Horiba, E.C.M., etc.'s lowest end
devices as well, AND provide better functionality for the far fewer bucks. The
idea is that NOW, there is enough of a market to go for some volume, instead of
treating them as high-end devices only racing teams are interested in/can
afford. The times, they are a-changin.

Gar

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 18:22:51 -0700
From: mike@xxx.com (Mike DiMeco)
Subject: Ford ECUs

Does anyone have Ford ECU knowledge?
I need some table locations and formulas for
spark, fuel, closed loop, TCC lockup etc.

90 Mustang 5.0 LX AOD 3:08 rear end.

Do they have EPROMs or PROMS? Do I need to
desolder to program?

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 21:02:28 -0500
From: Tom Sharpe <twsharpe@xxx.com>
Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi

Why use a spark at all??? just squeeze it till it pops...  Tom (Cat man) Sharpe

Todd....!! wrote:

> C'mon David....,
>
> They used to think it was impossible to travel to the moon, much less
> mars.... we've done it...
>
> They used to think a 4 minute mile was impossible... Done
>
> As well as a sub 4 second 1/4 run outof a piston engined dragster...
> Done
>
> etc, etc...
>
> Just as a thought, if your believe the limitation of runnin a non spark
> plug engine using the block and head as the anode and ground instead of
> a spark plug is because of the bolts and the water between em creating a
> connection, then we must insulate em, maybe even run two
> seperated(isolated) radiators, one for the head, one for the block...
>
> As for the bolts, use isolated anchors within the block or merely secure
> the heads onto the block via some sortof external mechanism...(like a
> vice)
>
> Most obstacles are easily overcome, if ya think the 'right' way....
>
> Anything else?
>
> LATER!
>
> Todd....!!
>
> David A. Cooley wrote:
> >
> > > Makes ya wonder why they don't just use the piston as the electrode and
> > > the head as the ground or vice versus and omit the spark plug all
> > > together due to not having a need for em anymore!
> > >
> > > The block and/or pistons can be electrically isolated from the heads
> > > fairly wasily with nonconductive head gaskets, etc...
> >
> > Actually, they can't.  Head bolts are metal, water in the cooling jacket is
> > conductive etc...
> > It's basically an impossibility.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 21:18:15 -0500
From: Tom Sharpe <twsharpe@xxx.com>
Subject: Re: Simple Injection Questions

Chew, Aaron wrote:

> Alpha-n is a throttle-position and rpm fuel map control strategy.
>

For a really simple system, Alpha_N with a quad set of pots to adjust things,
say idle to off idle(0% to +10%),  cruse (+10 to +30), acceleration (+30 to +60)
and WOT. Just more screws to adjust than a standard carb.... add temperature
correction if you ride when it's cold or hot.. or a fifth pot for a global
weather adjustment. Sounds like an old Holley analog unit.. That's (IMHO) what
VW used in the 70's.  Tom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 19:09:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: Re: EGR?

- -> > 2-3 mpg, right off the top.  The first test a line mechanic does
- -> when a > customer brings a vehicle in with a lost-mileage complaint
- -> is an EGR > valve test.

> It is?  And here I always asked "When was the last tune up" as the
> first test. ; )

 Jeez, you must work in an ancient dealership!  Modern dealerships
employ "ticket writers" to interface with customer-vermin; the
relationship between the problem on the ticket and what the customer
brought the car in for is sometimes tenuous.  In any event, no line
mechanic ever deals with a customer nowadays.  They might get cooties or
something.
                                                                                                       

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 22:52:02 -0400
From: Shannen Durphey <shannen@xxx.com>
Subject: Re: EGR?

Dave Williams wrote:
> 
> -> > 2-3 mpg, right off the top.  The first test a line mechanic does
> -> when a > customer brings a vehicle in with a lost-mileage complaint
> -> is an EGR > valve test.
> 
> > It is?  And here I always asked "When was the last tune up" as the
> > first test. ; )
> 
>  Jeez, you must work in an ancient dealership!  Modern dealerships
> employ "ticket writers" to interface with customer-vermin; the
> relationship between the problem on the ticket and what the customer
> brought the car in for is sometimes tenuous.  In any event, no line
> mechanic ever deals with a customer nowadays.  They might get cooties or
> something.
> 
Ancient??  Just because they still have service manuals for cars from
the 50's, does that make them ancient?  Sometimes, the Service Manager
would grab his tools out and help me, and the other tech.  I could
order parts, write up RO's, mechanic, paint (not really good at that),
and do body work, fix the shop equipment, maintain the shop's two
computers, and would routinely get calls on weekends and after hours. 
That was when I was in Montana, where diversity is the only way to get
ahead.  We had it pretty good by comparison.  At a GM training course,
two of the guys were mentioning how they'd never used a hoist, and
never wanted to.  The big guy was really happy laying trannies on his
stomach and installing them without a jack.  This was the Pioneer
Garage in Jordan.  And Jordan, BTW, was where the Freemen were holed
up.

Now, I'm in a closed shop.  We get a little bit of customer work, and
I try to be at the desk whenever it comes in.  It's a good idea to at
least show yourself to the car owner, IMHO.
Shannen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 20:47:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Davies <jimd@xxx.ca>
Subject: Re: EGR?

On Sun, 23 May 1999, soren wrote:

> 
> Me too!  Unless the car had always been serviced at the dealership on a
> regular basis, then I always look for a mouse-nest in the air filter box
> first.
> 
Then there is rats and plug wires. They seem to prefer GM wires. I suppose
the government will want to study the effect of silicone insulation on
their tender little digestive tracks soon...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 21:09:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Davies <jimd@xxx.ca>
Subject: Re: EGR?

On Sun, 23 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote:

> the 50's, does that make them ancient?  Sometimes, the Service Manager
> would grab his tools out and help me, and the other tech.  

A service manager that actually knows someting about cars? Well, I suppose
it COULD happen...

------------------------------

End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #302
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