DIY_EFI Digest Friday, May 28 1999 Volume 04 : Number 316 In this issue: Re: Prowler V6 Re: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Re: NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Re: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging, also efi pumps Re: Prowler V6 Location of intake air temperature sensor Re: Location of intake air temperature sensor v8 block thread cleaning RE: Location of intake air temperature sensor Re: Prowler V6 RE: Location of intake air temperature sensor Re: alternative engines, now Hemi Re: Prowler V6 Re: Prowler V6 Re: v8 block thread cleaning Re: ECM Doc Re: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Re: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Re: Location of intake air temperature sensor Re: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging, also efi pumps Re: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Re: Prowler V6 Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 17:24:28 -0600 From: cybercaf@xxx.com Subject: Re: Prowler V6 See http://www.blueovalnews.com/new_ford_engine.htm for an interesting discussion of Ford's own opinion of the modular... and possible plans for the future. Mike J. Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > 30% more from a 200HP engine would be 260... 50% more would be 300 > > Maybe Todd and I should split a calculator :) > > > Nope... They try so hard to cut costs that MOST engines are built at the > > ragged edge of holding together anymore... > > I've learned this the hard way unfortunately. > > > 30% over stock without new crank, rods etc, and the 4.6 has been the ONLY V8 > > stang motor for the last 2-3 years. > > I actually like the motor... was going to use one in my mid-engine car > project, with a Paxton. Nice and simple. > > > TONS of cash dumped into the car. I know plenty of Stang owners that would > > love to see 400HP without buying a complete new engine. > > Not to be opposite, but I find that hard to believe, especially with a > transplanted 302 or 351... both are decent designs and have more to > give. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:19:32 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) At 09:49 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >Borrowing money on borrowed money is not a federal offense man, but I >may just be TOTALLY ignorant of most things...meaning that I don't know >EVERYTHHING, hardly anything matter of fact... > >So, what's Check Kiting? That's where you write a check, buy something get cash back, deposit the cash in the bank, write another check etc... basically trying to write checks and deposit the money to stay ahead of all the checks because there isn't enough money in the account... A secured loan, if you take the security deposit out, as the original poster stated, violates the contract of the loan and puts you in default. the money has to stay there until the loan is paid off. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:25:39 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? >In order to run under like 12's or so on most tracks, at least in the >US, you can't even run an IRS rear end! And where in the NHRA rules does it state this? > >How he's runnin 10's more tthan ONCE on any trrakc in America, if that's >where he got the 10's at, is VERY RARE indeed! > Again, Show me the NHRA rule that states an IRS is not allowed if you go XX.XX or faster >Maybe at an ALL Z car rod run at the strip or somethin, but NHRA rules >are NHRA rules.... no matter what the occasion... > >Maybe I'm missing somethin...? > >For example, I MUST be missing some sorta loop hole, cuz a BONE STOCK >Viper GTS was runnin in the 10.1xx at teh Houston Raceway park track >justa few months ago at the Hennessey Viper Shootout where 26 Vipers >turned out as well as one trailered Vette, which I didn't see come off >the trailor the entire time... Looked GREAT though... Was red and had >custom rims n all.. > >Before ya get your panties in a bunch, I must add that the 10 second >Viper was runnin lil slicks in the rear and front runners up front, and >had a 400 shot a NOS! and TWO(2) mechanics messin with the plugs to >verify correct nos/a/f mixture... > That's not stock... Stock would have been without the Nitrous... The factory Viper Fuel pump will not handle fuel flow for 800HP... there had to be other aftermarket parts, and therefore was NOT stock. >He 'said' that the whole engine was STOCK!! except the nos injectors, a >course! > He lied... Double HP and it's bone stock... Crank and rods would have been all over the track Hennesey Motorsports builds vipers and in their advertisements, just to get to 600 HP they have to replace pistons, rods, crank etc. (It's on their web page!!) =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:29:45 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? - ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd....!! To: Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 12:34 PM Subject: Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? | Hi Grumpy, | In mine eyes, I believe buildin a f.i.'s turbo'd v8 WIHTOUT an | intercooler is like buildin a normally aspirated v8 with only 4 | pistons.... Need to open your eyes a tad farther. Some classes don't even allow for intercooling. | The benefits of the turbo are less than half of that if designed WITH an | intercooler.... Oh, Intercooler is just cooling intake charge, no one says you have to use an intercooler to cool the intake charge. | Plus the turbo and engine incur WAY more thermal stress and are short | lived in comparison... | It's like building a car without a radiator.... | A watercooled housing is a big help as far as oil breakdown within the | turbo bushing/bearing area...where most of the oil breakdown occurs in a | turbo engine due to the intense heat exposure in this area... Why?, have you researched or directly experimented with the water cooled center housings?. | LATER! | Todd.... | Bruce Plecan wrote: | > From: Todd....!! | > Subject: Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? | > | I'm TOTALLY interested in turbo(s), WITH INTERCOOLING! | > | Intercoolin is a must in these days of enlightment n all... | > Not really just one way to do something. | > Grumpy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:28:43 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging, also efi pumps At 09:55 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >FYI - I ran AVgas(Aviation fuel) right from outa the airplane fueler >tanker (They DIDN'T USE THE GROUND STRAP FROM THE TANKER TO THE CAR, but >DID on all the planes, that coulda hurt!) into my 73 Camaro with a 383 >stroker, closed chambered small valve heads(1.94), Edelbrock tunnelram >w/ dual 600 vac holleys, 4-speed, and 3.73 limited slip 10-bolt rear... >was at about 10.5:1 compression... first 5 gallons in the new motor were >AVGAS, as were the next few tanks.... kinda expensive... started mixin >super and avgas, then went to straight superunleaded(93 octane)... > >Everyone told me it was only 100 octane, the exhaust smelled like race >gas to me.... They don't rate AV gas octane the same as regular gas... 100LL av gas is about 105-110 octane in automotive terms... It also has MORE lead (even though it says low lead) than any automotive leaded fuel (Almost twice the amount) Check out the Gasoline FAQ on the net... Pretty good info there. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 12:43:52 -0400 From: "SPECTRO COATING CORP." Subject: Re: Prowler V6 >Whilst in Louisville, Kentuckey a few summers ago, QUITE a few, back in >college, I went by a steel plant... they had a bunch a cranks that they >were creating out of RAW MOLTEN STEEL!! COOL? Anyhoo they said that >the cranks were for Toyota Camry's! They were FORGED!!! NEW CAMRY'S, >at least about 5 to 8 years ago had FORGED CRANKS, didn't see any rods >lyin around.... Toyota does know how to build engines... >So ya see, when ya say 'plain vanilla', back in the 60's and early 70's >and some MAYBE EVEN NOW, ALL Mopars came with FORGED cranks and rods, >wheras most others had meager cast units.... > >I've heard that most s.b. chev 4-bolt main blocks had forged cranks, but >this hasn't been sildified/proven yet to me anyways, anybody? > Actually - no don't bet on a 4 bolt having a forged crank unless... A. its an LT-1 (no, not the 90's kind - the 70's kind) or B. It's in a school bus (really!), or out of a medium duty truck. FWIW - Jason ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:50:21 -0700 From: "Eidson, Mark" Subject: Location of intake air temperature sensor Where does the intake air temperature sensor go on a turbocharged and intercooled port injection system? me - -----Original Message----- From: Frederic Breitwieser [mailto:frederic.breitwieser@xxx.com] Sent: Monday, March 15, 1999 2:03 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Frederic Breitwieser/turbo discussion > Ok, I'll start! There is a certain responsibility with going first :) > I was mulling around a little idea I had about my Pontiac. It's in the > garage with no fenders, the 400 looks pretty bare, with no harness or > plumbing. I have a spare (used) turbo sitting there from my old Mustang > ('84 GT350, turbo4) and have been contemplating adding this along with efi. Its my school of thought to add the EFI first, get that running suitably, making sure your EFI configuration is upgradable to the additional boost, either by a larger MAF or a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor depending on your configuration. > Then I thought about a setup something like the original post about the > variable exhaust system. I was thinking about a relatively small turbo > driven by one bank, to get the boost rolling, then a pretty large turbo on > the other bank that would take over at higher rpm's. I didn't get into the > pro's and con's yet. I spent a lot of time with several friends of mine trying to achieve the best bottom end combined with an awesome top end on the Buick V6 twin-turbo. For scavaging purposes, you want the exhaust restriction to be about identical on both sides of the engine, so sizing a smaller turbo on one side and a larger turbo on the other will cause ineffective scavvaging on the smaller turbo side, unless you achieve a bypass. We tried running two small 1.6L Subaru turbos off each side, but they weezed out pretty low in the RPM band (about 3600-3800 RPM on the Buick). So, we then daisychained larger turbos (TE44) in series on the exhaust lines... however the smaller turbos "got in the way" at higher RPMs exhaust flow wise. So, we got a little crazy and used four of those cast iron JC Whitney exhaust bypass thingys and put one fore and one aft on the smaller turbo, so at low RPMs the smaller turbos were working hard, flowing its waste into the larger turbos to keep them somewhat spooled. Then, at 4000 RPM, we'd cut all four bypasses so the smaller turbos were "out of the loop". This worked very well, and increased power more broadly across the RPM band. The problem now is how to control these mechanical valves. Also, this is just the exhaust side of things, we hadn't really done anything with the intake side... we just monitored RPMs of the engine and where the turbos small or large stopped making any additional boost, or started to overspeed. Plumbing was a nightmare, and certainly the weight of four turbos plus four cast iron cutouts was not exactly something we wanted hanging off the headers. So, the small turbos went, and we used the two TE44's and at 6200 RPM, we blew the crank apart and testing continued on a second engine. We also experimented with nitrious for lower RPMs, triggering it in the 1500-3000 range thus giving more punch before the turbos are at max boost, and this also worked very, very well. Using the aftermarket ECMs (Haltech in this case) you have a general purpose output which you can use for Nitrious solenoids or fangle up an injector driver circuit to drive additional injectors... solder away my friend. We ended up with three injectors per cylinder... first two were 93/94 octane gasoline, the third was an 80% alky 20% distilled water mix from a seperate tank and worked very well. This is very similar to what I will be doing on my 383 stroker (431 cid) Mopar block during the spring as the parts start to come together. Hope that helps ;) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:02:29 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Location of intake air temperature sensor At 09:50 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >Where does the intake air temperature sensor go on a turbocharged and >intercooled port injection system? me before the turbo... usually in the air filter box. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:03:51 -0700 From: "Peter Fenske" Subject: v8 block thread cleaning Hi Gang Getting back to the original post. Jegs has a really nice set of cleaning taps for 20$ Another question. Does anyone know of long replacement metric gm wheel studs?? Peter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:16:11 -0700 From: "Eidson, Mark" Subject: RE: Location of intake air temperature sensor How does a MAP system compensate for the increased/reduced air temperature resulting from the turbo and intercooler? me - -----Original Message----- From: David A. Cooley [mailto:n5xmt@xxx.net] Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 10:02 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Location of intake air temperature sensor At 09:50 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >Where does the intake air temperature sensor go on a turbocharged and >intercooled port injection system? me before the turbo... usually in the air filter box. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:23:24 -0700 From: Bill Edgeworth Subject: Re: Prowler V6 "Todd....!!" wrote: > > > So ya see, when ya say 'plain vanilla', back in the 60's and early 70's > and some MAYBE EVEN NOW, ALL Mopars came with FORGED cranks and rods, > wheras most others had meager cast units.... > Lots of mopars came with cast cranks, in fact even the last year of the 340 (1973) it came with a externally balanced cast crank. Cast cranks were very common in the B-RB engine family. Bill Edgeworth ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:29:27 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: RE: Location of intake air temperature sensor At 10:16 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >How does a MAP system compensate for the increased/reduced air temperature >resulting from the turbo and intercooler? me Not sure... Probably a fudge factor for temp depending on Intake air temp, MAP and coolant temp. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:52:02 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: alternative engines, now Hemi > There may be more 400's BB Mopes than 440's in certain junkyards... It depends on where you live. Up here the roads are predominately later model FWD vehicles, therefore that's what the yards keep longer cuz they can sell parts. > Which would you prefer? I am undecided. The 440 weighs slightly more than the 383/400, but not enough that the additional cubes would work out just fine. Though, considering I put 100 hours into modifying my carb intake to support TPI, fabricated an aluminum plenum, well, might as well stick with the 383 or 400. So I imagine I just answered my own "undecided". Though the 440 has bigger crank journals :) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:58:12 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Prowler V6 > So ya see, when ya say 'plain vanilla', back in the 60's and early 70's > and some MAYBE EVEN NOW, ALL Mopars came with FORGED cranks and rods, > wheras most others had meager cast units.... Mopar had a mix of cast and forged units over the years... and as the product line aged into the 70's, the cast parts became more common. Also not around this time due to emmission rules, the compression went down as well. Maybe these two statements are related. > I've heard that most s.b. chev 4-bolt main blocks had forged cranks, but > this hasn't been sildified/proven yet to me anyways, anybody? Some do some don't. One thing I will state about the Chevy engine, is its a bottom oiler, whereas most ford/mopar engines are top oilers. This means in a Chevy 350, the crank journals are oiled first. Interesting tidbit I got from the local machine shop this morning. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:15:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies Subject: Re: Prowler V6 On Fri, 28 May 1999, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > One thing I will state about the Chevy engine, is its a bottom oiler, > whereas most ford/mopar engines are top oilers. This means in a Chevy > 350, the crank journals are oiled first. Interesting tidbit I got > from the local machine shop this morning. > The SBC oiling layout in the block is similar to the FE Ford except more oil gets past the cam area to the crank. The mopar layout also has the oil going to the lifter bores first, then it goes to the mains and Vs off to the cam bearings. This system seemed to work okay in the 426 Hemi after they switched to full groove main bearings. Mopar had some tuners-tips mods to A block systems that included reamed and sleeving the primary lifter bore feed circuit. I dont know of any bottom-oiling domestic V8s, but the BBC and 427 Fords are side oilers. Honda makes some bottom oiling engines, but the best layout I know of were in the V-1710 and V-1650 V-12s. Best system I have seen is the end-shot system used in the 100 series Merlins. Very nice. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:47:09 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: v8 block thread cleaning Subject: v8 block thread cleaning | Getting back to the original post. | Jegs has a really nice set of cleaning taps for 20$ | Another question. Does anyone know of long replacement | metric gm wheel studs?? I think ya want the 22551491 Grumpy | Peter | | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 13:38:38 -0500 From: "Ron Gregory" Subject: Re: ECM Doc > Greetings. What is the "Turbo P4 doc"? http://members.home.com/syclone/Turbo_P4_Doc.pdf Enjoy Ron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 15:02:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Previously, you (Todd....!!) wrote: > If ya calulate the interest on a $1,000 loan with an APR of, what, 10% > MAX. > > Multiply $1,000 by 10%, this equals $100, then divide the $100 by 12 > months in a year, this gives ya about $10/mo interest MAX. I think you may be forgetting that this is compounded interest using the rule of 72 the time required for the interest to double is 7.2 years which is around $11.58 > > The entire loan only lasts about 6 weeks so thats about $15 MAX for > interest, however, since the loan is a SECURED loan SECURED with CASH > MONEY in THEIR BANK, the interest rate should be less than a normal > unsecured loans' interest would be... so the interest lost would be > minimal... once you remove that deposit from the bank the loan is no longer a secured loan. most banks ask that a deposit use as collatural be "hypothicated"(sp??) which means it's still yours but you can't have it. ( I bought a house while unemployed, the house was $120K, we had $70k, and the bank made us deposit $10k and hypothicate the 10K as security for mortgage payments) weird but true > > THEN we must look at the BIG picture, we're building a repore with a > bank which in the end will allow us to borrow money thru unsecured > loans, which will allow us to purchase propertis that we would otherwise > be unable to purchase.... banks up here have NO LOYALTY you are a cash cow once your milked off to the slaughterhouse > > The siz week loan period is to get within the visible loan length range > where the banks and other lending institution will notice the loans... > > Any shorter length than 6 weeks will go unnoticed by most banks... > > Then the SUPER big picture is to be able to fund a f.i.'d twin turbo > 451/440 project for the Superbee.... which is why I'm here learning as > much as I can before doin any buying or investing in parts..... > > Take it easy!, > > Sincerely, > > Todd....!! > http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm > > William T Wilson wrote: > > > > On Thu, 27 May 1999, Stegbauer, Michael wrote: > > > > > > Will be goin out and gettin loans using this $3,000 as my collateral in > > > > several banks in series, i.e. deposit the $3000 in one bank, get a loan > > > > using it as collateral, take the loan money from the first bank, deposit > > > > it into another bank, get a loan on that money etc.... > > > > A stunt like this will cost you a fortune in interest. However, it's > > mathematically sound. Basic economics class will demonstrate that exactly > > the same phenomenon is already at work and makes the banking system go. > > > > It is marginally useful for building credit references, but otherwise, > > won't do you much good. The credit bureaus know how much money you have > > loaned out total, and they know how many loans you have, too. And, of > > course, you have to pay the interest on the total amount you have > > borrowed whether it is in small or large lumps. > > - -- Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:51:24 -0400 From: "Peter D. Hipson" Subject: Re: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) Open an account at bank A, with $100. Go to bank B, open an account, with $100. Go to bank C, open an account with $100. Basically, (In the real world, it is a bit more complex, with a trust building period) write a check on A, for $75, deposite in B. immediately before the first check clears, write a check on B, for $175, deposit in C. immediately before the first check clears, write a check on C, for $275, deposit in A, immediately before the first check clears, write a check on A, for $375, deposite in B. immediately before the first check clears, write a check on B, for $475, deposit in C. immediately before the first check clears, write a check on C, for $575, deposit in A since none of the checks have cleared, each account will have many deposits, and no withdraws. Finally write a check on each account for about 95% of the balance and quick as a bunny, cash the check. Federal offense for check kiting, state offense for bad checks, probably a fraud charge in there too. At 09:49 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >Borrowing money on borrowed money is not a federal offense man, but I >may just be TOTALLY ignorant of most things...meaning that I don't know >EVERYTHHING, hardly anything matter of fact... > >So, what's Check Kiting? > >Thanks! > >Todd....!! > >Peter D. Hipson wrote: >> >> Careful, that's very close to check kiting... A federal offence, btw. >> >> At 12:37 PM 5/27/99 -0700, you wrote: >> > >> >> Will be goin out and gettin loans using this $3,000 as my collateral in >> >> several banks in series, i.e. deposit the $3000 in one bank, get a loan >> >> using it as collateral, take the loan money from the first bank, deposit >> >> it into another bank, get a loan on that money etc.... >> >> >> >> Then mak 2 or 3 payments on each 'loan' over a 6 week period using the >> >> $3,000 'loan' money for payment money, then go back within about 6 weeks >> >> or so and pay all of em off, then ask for a signature loan from each >> >> bank for about the same amount...(signature meaning NO COLLATERAL!) and >> >> do the same thing with that signature loan money... This will build >> >> credit with the bank(s) as well as a relationship with em... >> > >> >Wow! I'm looking into buying some land. If the loan officers in >> >Houston are this stupid, maybe I should get a loan there. >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, >> Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) >> 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon > > > > Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:33:16 -0500 From: "green" Subject: Re: Location of intake air temperature sensor The SyTy system uses a MAT (manifold air temp) sensor. This is in the manifold itself, after the turbo. I'd think this is a good/bad thing. Bad, because it might be subject to heat soak of the manifold itself, but good because it is actually measuring the air going into the engine for fueling/timing calculations. So it would take into account turbo and intercooler efficiencies partially, as more/less fuel would be delivered, and more/less timing would be employed, versus the air temps. If the sensor was before the turbo, it might measure ambient only, while the air temps at the manifold would be much hotter, and vary a lot (i've seen them rise 50-100 degrees in a 1/4 run in a syty). It's interesting that the syty chip doesn't change fueling much versus the MAT temp..... here's the MAT temp fueling term table from the syty chips 0x04D1 F31M_TBLE Base Pulse Inverse Air Temp vs ADMAT (ACSP Senso Deg. K | Hot 136 107 91.0 80.0 71.0 63.0 56.0 49.3 43.3 37.0 30.5 23.5 15.5 6.0 -8.5 Cold - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ----------------------------------- (Deg. K)| 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9B 0x9D 0x9F 0xA5 0xC0 I'd think there'd be a direct relationship here between temperature and fueling needs. There's also a nifty table that is timing vs MAT and vs boost 0x02D2 F3_TABLE Spark Advance Adjustment vs ADMAT1K Deg. vs Deg. C & kPa Boost | Cold 23.5 49.3 80.0 Hot - --------------------------------------- 0.0 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 12.5 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 25.0 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 37.5 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 50.0 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 62.5 | 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 75.0 | 20.04 20.04 18.98 16.87 20.04 87.5 | 20.04 20.04 17.93 15.82 20.04 100.0 | 16.87 16.87 16.87 14.77 14.77 Sorry if that looks goofy in the email.... Brian Green Syclone 160 |How does a MAP system compensate for the increased/reduced air temperature |resulting from the turbo and intercooler? me | |-----Original Message----- |From: David A. Cooley [mailto:n5xmt@xxx.net] |Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 10:02 AM |To: diy_efi@xxx.edu |Subject: Re: Location of intake air temperature sensor | | |At 09:50 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: |>Where does the intake air temperature sensor go on a turbocharged and |>intercooled port injection system? me | |before the turbo... usually in the air filter box. |=========================================================== | David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net | Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 | Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! |=========================================================== | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:03:16 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: O/T Compression ratio and supercharging, also efi pumps Hi David, Thanks for the info... However, as far as the lead content, buds said that the AVGas was kinda 'dry' and that I shouldn't run the AVGas too long so as to not burn the valves up... But if you read your source on the net, then it must be true, ey? lol LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm David A. Cooley wrote: > > At 09:55 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: > >FYI - I ran AVgas(Aviation fuel) right from outa the airplane fueler > >tanker (They DIDN'T USE THE GROUND STRAP FROM THE TANKER TO THE CAR, but > >DID on all the planes, that coulda hurt!) into my 73 Camaro with a 383 > >stroker, closed chambered small valve heads(1.94), Edelbrock tunnelram > >w/ dual 600 vac holleys, 4-speed, and 3.73 limited slip 10-bolt rear... > >was at about 10.5:1 compression... first 5 gallons in the new motor were > >AVGAS, as were the next few tanks.... kinda expensive... started mixin > >super and avgas, then went to straight superunleaded(93 octane)... > > > >Everyone told me it was only 100 octane, the exhaust smelled like race > >gas to me.... > > They don't rate AV gas octane the same as regular gas... 100LL av gas is > about 105-110 octane in automotive terms... It also has MORE lead (even > though it says low lead) than any automotive leaded fuel (Almost twice the > amount) > Check out the Gasoline FAQ on the net... Pretty good info there. > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:10:08 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Getting loans.. (WAY off topic) HI David, I understand now. I am the orig poster, I didn't make myself clear... You DO leave the original $3,000 in the first bank til it's paid off, I don't think they'd let ya take it out anyways... good point about 'what if' ya DID take out that initial deposit! So leave the initial $3,000 outa your pocket in the first bank, deposit the loan money from the 1st bank into the second bank, get a loan on that cash, then go to the third bank with the loan money from the 2nd bank and so on... ALL the banks are treated the SAME, they have ALL loaned out the same amount that they have in an account held by the 'loanie'(sp?, is that even a word) /client/customer... I see what your saying though and will avoid that situation, too scary and risky for me to handle, on purpose anyways... Thanks for the input/advice/warning/answer(s)... Take er easy mang! LATER! Todd....!! - -------- David A. Cooley wrote: > > At 09:49 AM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Borrowing money on borrowed money is not a federal offense man, but I > >may just be TOTALLY ignorant of most things...meaning that I don't know > >EVERYTHHING, hardly anything matter of fact... > > > >So, what's Check Kiting? > > That's where you write a check, buy something get cash back, deposit the > cash in the bank, write another check etc... basically trying to write > checks and deposit the money to stay ahead of all the checks because there > isn't enough money in the account... A secured loan, if you take the > security deposit out, as the original poster stated, violates the contract > of the loan and puts you in default. the money has to stay there until the > loan is paid off. > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:15:31 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Prowler V6 Thanks for that heads up about the steel cranks Jason!, I always check the crank, rods, n pistons PERSONALLY by eye to make SURE they're a froging or casting, by the casting marks.... if the things polished, I don't know HOW to tell for sure.... maybe see if a magnet'll stick to it or somethin? haha...? Just kiddin, if the magnet don't stick, then it's either some sorta alloy, or aluminum(Rods, not crank) Just a quick general self-checker question: Anybody in here ever ran FORGED steel pistons? or do most of ya'll only run CAST iron pistons? Just wonderin what kinda answers I'll get from this.... I run forged hypereutectic myself, but a magnet won't stick to ANY of em! Anyone know why? LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm SPECTRO COATING CORP. wrote: > > >Whilst in Louisville, Kentuckey a few summers ago, QUITE a few, back in > >college, I went by a steel plant... they had a bunch a cranks that they > >were creating out of RAW MOLTEN STEEL!! COOL? Anyhoo they said that > >the cranks were for Toyota Camry's! They were FORGED!!! NEW CAMRY'S, > >at least about 5 to 8 years ago had FORGED CRANKS, didn't see any rods > >lyin around.... > > Toyota does know how to build engines... > > >So ya see, when ya say 'plain vanilla', back in the 60's and early 70's > >and some MAYBE EVEN NOW, ALL Mopars came with FORGED cranks and rods, > >wheras most others had meager cast units.... > > > >I've heard that most s.b. chev 4-bolt main blocks had forged cranks, but > >this hasn't been sildified/proven yet to me anyways, anybody? > > > Actually - no don't bet on a 4 bolt having a forged crank unless... > > A. its an LT-1 (no, not the 90's kind - the 70's kind) or > > B. It's in a school bus (really!), or out of a medium duty truck. > > FWIW - Jason ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:46:46 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Hi ya Bruce, If one is building a car to race in a non intercooled arena, so be it, to each his own, the vehicle just won't perform to it's best potential as it would WITH an intercooler..... Intercoolers can allow for up to 30% or more power to be produced before engine breaking pre-detonation occurs...as compared to a non-intercooled counterpart... the intercooler's characteristics are ALL positive except maybe that it could cause a bit more of a turbo lag than it would without one... The intercooler disipates heat caused by the turbo pressurizing and heating the intake air charge causing the air charge to be COOLER and MORE DENSE than a non-intercooled engine at the same boost level... Matter of fact, I wonder if ANY big car manufacturer even offers any cars which are turbo equipped without an intercooler? Anyone? Sure ya don't have to use an intercooler, heck, ya don't HAVE to use a turbo at all, but the car won't be as powerful as it could be with a turbo and/or an intercooler.... Water cooled turbo center sections/(cartridges) tend to remain cooler than non-watercooled cartridges, because the turbo is driven by 1,500-2,000 degree exhaust air/fire this would lead me to believe that MOST of the oil breakdown which occurs in turbo cars, and the reason turbo cars' oil should be changed more frequently than the non-turbo'd cars is because of the heat produced by the turbo itself being transmitted into the oil itself....thus causing the oil to breakdown into it's by products, one of the byproduts being CARBON! (Coking the turbo bearing/bushing occurs, mostly aafter the engine is shutdown with an overly hot turbo...) A watercooled turbo doesn't have this 'problem' or issue to deal with....except for maybe the 'coking' issue after shutdown.... Please understand that I don't believe this to be any sort of argument at all, but a conveyance of the issue of whether one has the RIGHT to build their engine in any way the see fit, which I DO believe in, by the way, just so ya'll know... Take er easy... Sincerely!, Todd.... http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Bruce Plecan wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Todd....!! > To: > Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 12:34 PM > Subject: Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? > > | Hi Grumpy, > | In mine eyes, I believe buildin a f.i.'s turbo'd v8 WIHTOUT an > | intercooler is like buildin a normally aspirated v8 with only 4 > | pistons.... > > Need to open your eyes a tad farther. Some classes don't even allow for > intercooling. > > | The benefits of the turbo are less than half of that if designed WITH an > | intercooler.... > > Oh, Intercooler is just cooling intake charge, no one says you have to use > an intercooler to cool the intake charge. > > | Plus the turbo and engine incur WAY more thermal stress and are short > | lived in comparison... > | It's like building a car without a radiator.... > | A watercooled housing is a big help as far as oil breakdown within the > | turbo bushing/bearing area...where most of the oil breakdown occurs in a > | turbo engine due to the intense heat exposure in this area... > > Why?, have you researched or directly experimented with the water cooled > center housings?. > > | LATER! > | Todd.... > | Bruce Plecan wrote: > | > From: Todd....!! > | > Subject: Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? > | > | I'm TOTALLY interested in turbo(s), WITH INTERCOOLING! > | > | Intercoolin is a must in these days of enlightment n all... > | > Not really just one way to do something. > | > Grumpy ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #316 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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