DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, May 30 1999 Volume 04 : Number 319 In this issue: Re: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Re: Location of intake air temperature sensor Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Re: v8 block thread cleaning Re: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? Intake Air Temperature Dual fuel PFI rails.... Re: NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Re: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Re: Butterfly valves part II Re: Intake Air Temperature Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Haltech F7 Info Needed Re: Direct Injection test Some new, some old Re: Intake Air Temperature Re: Haltech F7 Info Needed Re: Some new, some old Ford info... Re: Some new, some old Re: Ford info... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 08:04:57 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Thanks for reminding me. I know about the Vette - just forgot. Actually, only the latest C5 Vette does not use the driveshaft as an upper control arm. That's the danger of using always or never. The Jaguar also has a fixed halfshaft. Gary Derian > Gary Derian wrote: > > > > Those old Datsuns used regular U-joints and ball splines to accommodate the > > length change. All front wheel drive and independent rear suspension rear > > wheel drive cars use halfshafts that accommodate length change. > > Not Corvette up to 1980. Halfshafts provide support for rear wheels. > Ceter pin of differential is considered part of the suspension. > Vettes have two rods from bottom of differential to bottom of knuckle, > knuckle is mounted on a trailing arm, and the spring is mounted > laterally, connected to the rear of the knuckles. FYI. > Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 08:46:13 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Location of intake air temperature sensor At 11:59 PM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/28/99 1:06:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >n5xmt@xxx.net writes: > >> >Where does the intake air temperature sensor go on a turbocharged and >> >intercooled port injection system? me >> >> before the turbo... usually in the air filter box. > >It is in the intake plenum on a Syclone/Typhoon. Ah.. My experience was with the 86/7 Buick GN... MAF with MAT, but the MAT is in the air stream immediately after the air filter, before the MAF and turbo etc... =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 09:04:11 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? At 04:00 PM 5/28/99 -0700, you wrote: >> >Most first-generation [meaning in the 1980s] car turbo systems were >non-intercooled. Later ones were sometimes air-to-air intercooled. A few >were liquid-to-air-intercooled. It roughly followed the "rule of 7" -- >non-intercooled meant max boost about 7 psi, air intercooled meant max >boost about 14 psi, liquid intercooled about 21 psi. Hmm... My non-intercooled 85 Buick GN ran 14PSI boost stock... the 86/87's went to 17-18 PSI if conditions were favorable (intercooled) and the water to air intercooled Syclone/Typhoon only ran 15 or so PSI... The problem with a water to air intercooled turbo on MOST cars is they use the engines own coolant... this means it's not cooler than 180 degrees once the engine is up to temp... The Syclone.Typhoon used antifreez, but it was a seperate circuit with it's own pump and mini radiator... It's problem was the pump wasn't triggerred by the ECM until the temps got way up. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 10:23:33 -0600 From: "Programmer" Subject: Re: v8 block thread cleaning The vacuum was around the $80 buck range from what I remember--it's pretty handy for clean-up. Lyndon IPTECH - -----Original Message----- From: Stowe, Ted-SEA To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 12:48 PM Subject: RE: v8 block thread cleaning >yes I just waltzed through a Snap-On truck for 10 min, $300 later... >they do have a nice set of long bottom tap things made for this purpose, >sort of a thread chaser. > >their handy magnetic light is $75, I 'd hate to ask what the vac cleaner is. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Programmer [SMTP:nwester@xxx.org] >> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 11:16 PM >> To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> Subject: Re: v8 block thread cleaning >> >> After hot-tanking and jet washing, all threads are re-tapped, blown clean >> and where needed, sealer is reapplied to bolt threads at "torque" up time. >> Hope this helps...if this is just at valve job time, to risk >> non-contamination, I'd just clean all bolts and apply sealer to the >> threads >> again. SnapOn does make a handy air powered vacuum cleaner !! >> >> Lyndon IPTECH >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Stowe, Ted-SEA >> To: 'diy_efi@xxx.edu' >> >> Date: Monday, May 24, 1999 6:34 PM >> Subject: v8 block thread cleaning >> >> >> > >> >howdy. >> > >> >what do you guys use to clean up the block head bolt holes ? >> >it would be criminal to torque my shiny heads to all that crud down >> there, >> >which I think exits to the water jacket and or the oil pan ? especially >> with >> >the arp thread sealer/lube on them. >> > >> >I see that snap on has a thread chaser tool set, rtd-42, however I can't >> >seem to find a local snap on guy to buy it from. >> > >> >compressed air would blow that junk down into my engine beyond any doubt. >> > >> >so if you were doing a valve job, what do you use ? >> > >> >thanks, Ted Stowe >> > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 11:02:11 -0500 (CDT) From: eclark@xxx.com Subject: Re: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? On Sat, 29 May 1999, Gary Derian wrote: > Thanks for reminding me. I know about the Vette - just forgot. Actually, > only the latest C5 Vette does not use the driveshaft as an upper control > arm. That's the danger of using always or never. The Jaguar also has a > fixed halfshaft. I'd love to see a C5's transaxle swapped into another car. Now that would be a fun project. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 15:09:46 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Turbo'd s.b. chev...in a 69 Camaro? maybe? If you use cooling water from the cold side of the radiator, it will be a lot cooler. Or a separate system. Actually, a separate cooling system doesn't need a radiator. It operates as an interheater during cruise cooling the water to nearly ambient. During short runs of boost, it has enough heat capacity to keep things cool for a while. It won't work on a land speed record car, though Gary Derian > >> > >Most first-generation [meaning in the 1980s] car turbo systems were > >non-intercooled. Later ones were sometimes air-to-air intercooled. A few > >were liquid-to-air-intercooled. It roughly followed the "rule of 7" -- > >non-intercooled meant max boost about 7 psi, air intercooled meant max > >boost about 14 psi, liquid intercooled about 21 psi. > > Hmm... My non-intercooled 85 Buick GN ran 14PSI boost stock... the 86/87's > went to 17-18 PSI if conditions were favorable (intercooled) and the water > to air intercooled Syclone/Typhoon only ran 15 or so PSI... > The problem with a water to air intercooled turbo on MOST cars is they use > the engines own coolant... this means it's not cooler than 180 degrees once > the engine is up to temp... The Syclone.Typhoon used antifreez, but it was > a seperate circuit with it's own pump and mini radiator... It's problem was > the pump wasn't triggerred by the ECM until the temps got way up. > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 12:17:18 -0700 From: Aaron Willis Subject: Intake Air Temperature Anybody have any suggestions on how I can accurately and instantaneously measure intake air temperature? I have had home thermometers suggested, but have to question their accuracy and ability to respond quickly. Bear in mind I am NOT yet running EFI, and may not be for some time...so any suggestions y'all can provide will help most if they work as stand-alone systems. Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 15:32:01 +0000 From: ntisdale Subject: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Was just thinking a dual fuel setup, via various methods. Dual injectors would be ideal, but would be a lot of work which I'm not equipped to do (maybe now's the time to learn....). Proposed vehicle is 4.3l Syclone. What would be the expected result of having a small-bore fuel rail for port injectors, maybe 1/4" I.D. or so? Idea being, that a switch in input fuels would reach the last injector in the line as fast as possible. Would the flow rate be adequate for correct injector operation? Another thought I had was a dual rail feeding a common injector(s); if designed properly, would be minimal residual fuel for the higher-octane stuff to flush out when hi octane circuit was activated. I'm sure there's been some discussion of this topic; the advantages of running on lower than optimal octane fuel when higher octane is not needed (i.e., no boost) is just too attractive. What do you folks think? Many thanks for any feedback. Sincerely, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 15:58:32 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Subject: Re: NC: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? > > >In order to run under like 12's or so on most tracks, at least in the > >US, you can't even run an IRS rear end! > > And where in the NHRA rules does it state this? it does I remeber seeing it IRS has to be replaces inder a specified time think it was in th 10 sec range Clive ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 19:40:02 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: 2.9X posi IRS pumpking donor/halfshaft q? Gary Derian wrote: > > Thanks for reminding me. I know about the Vette - just forgot. Actually, > only the latest C5 Vette does not use the driveshaft as an upper control > arm. That's the danger of using always or never. The Jaguar also has a > fixed halfshaft. "You should never use never, you always seem to get caught." ; ) I was thinking of the two upper trailing(?) arms on the c4 (and 81,82) Vette, which seems to take some of the load off the halfshafts. There is still no direct support provided for the top of the knuckle (in this design), but this seems to help. These rods have bushed bolt holes, much like a control arm, and when the bushings wear even a little, you feel some strange movement in the corners and on acceleration. C5 design finally catches up with other designs of 20+ yrs ago. > > Gary Derian > > > Gary Derian wrote: > > > > > > Those old Datsuns used regular U-joints and ball splines to accommodate > the > > > length change. All front wheel drive and independent rear suspension > rear > > > wheel drive cars use halfshafts that accommodate length change. > > > > Not Corvette up to 1980. FYI. > > Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 20:10:21 -0400 From: David Piper Subject: Re: Butterfly valves part II If thats my post of the Fisher bfy Cv vs deg rotation, must use formula for compressible gas. Cv is universal flow factor defined = 1 for 1 gpm water at 1 psi press drop. Cg is Fisher's coeff for compressibles. Will post formulae on Tuesday from work. At 11:14 PM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote: > >This is embarrassing, Doc been dancing around all night hoping someone would >send him a clue, but it hasn't happened (tha clue musk oil, stinks) >Anyway how do you use this chart?. >ie on a 2" pipe at 30d, how do you figure how much air is passing? >Grumpy > > > >| I scanned it and posted to efi332.eng.ohio-state.edu/incoming >| as "flowbrws.jpg" and "flow.jpg". The first is viewable and >| printable with a web browser. The second is a better quality >| one, but requires a nicer program (like Photoshop) to print on >| a single page. > later, > -greg > TurboDave ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 18:13:53 -0600 From: "Programmer" Subject: Re: Intake Air Temperature I guess the most accurate way--and fastest is using a thermistor, like Fords' ACT or a GM IAT sensor. If you're just trying to find a spot for a sensor for accuracy, I'd use a TIF air probe--non surface contact, hooked to a DVOM. As the resistance changes, either way--the values can be looked up against existing charts for temperature readings. Lyndon IPTECH - -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Willis To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Saturday, May 29, 1999 2:23 PM Subject: Intake Air Temperature > > Anybody have any suggestions on how I can accurately and instantaneously >measure intake air temperature? I have had home thermometers suggested, >but have to question their accuracy and ability to respond quickly. Bear >in mind I am NOT yet running EFI, and may not be for some time...so any >suggestions y'all can provide will help most if they work as stand-alone >systems. > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 > AOL IM: hemiyota > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 21:01:48 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... On several cars, I've tinkered with the was a noticeable inprovement going from 3/8" to 1/2". I can even imagine going smaller. The instantaneous demand when all the injectors opem is huge. Maybe given enough pressure it would work, but that would be the only "good" thing about it". Stock is like 30 lbs/hr. so 180 pounds per hour. figure 30 gals. 1/2 gal per min. at 80% duty cycle. 100 "beats" per sec., feeding 6 injectors. I'd like alot of reserve capacity for that. Just about totally opposite of a carb where the needle and seat is almost always "flowing" at WOT. Grumpy | Was just thinking a dual fuel setup, via various methods. Dual injectors | would be ideal, but would be a lot of work which I'm not equipped to do | (maybe now's the time to learn....). Proposed vehicle is 4.3l Syclone. | What would be the expected result of having a small-bore fuel rail for port | injectors, maybe 1/4" I.D. or so? Idea being, that a switch in input fuels | would reach the last injector in the line as fast as possible. Would the | flow rate be adequate for correct injector operation? Another thought I | had was a dual rail feeding a common injector(s); if designed properly, | would be minimal residual fuel for the higher-octane stuff to flush out | when hi octane circuit was activated. | I'm sure there's been some discussion of this topic; the advantages of | running on lower than optimal octane fuel when higher octane is not needed | (i.e., no boost) is just too attractive. | What do you folks think? Many thanks for any feedback. | Sincerely, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 19:14:54 PDT From: "paul lim" Subject: Haltech F7 Info Needed I am considering purchasing a used Haltech F7 that was previously used on a 4 cylinder Honda. It has all sensors and harness, however no manual nor software. I am planning on using it on a 6 cylinder turbo application. I need to find out if this is a good unit and if it is easy to program. Can you still get support from Haltech and obtain latest firmware revisions? Please email me and let me know where I can get support and any relevant info. TIA Paul ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 02 May 99 22:55:40 +1200 From: "Tom Parker" Subject: Re: Direct Injection Greg Hermann wrote: >, while the SU >>caburettors of the Rolls Royce would starve momentarily due to some sort of >>gee force effect. >> >I would bet that these pieces are the 3" (or so) SU's--Passini talked about >them a bit for use as a nearly ideal draw thru carb for turbocharging--he >said something along the lines of "With inlets the size of a sewer pipe and >needles with about the heft of a tommy bar!" I've never seen a picture but I read a description on the mini_list. Aparently they were about the size of a complete mini engine block! And for those that don't like SU's, I've found that they all have worn out throttle shafts which makes tuning them impossible due to air leaking in through the gap. You have to replace the throttle shaft and put bushes in the body and then they should be a lot better. - -- Tom Parker - parkert@xxx.nz - http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8381/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:41:09 -0400 From: "Clare Snyder" Subject: test disconnected ibm - testing @home connection ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 23:06:00 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Some new, some old I have placed wiring diagrams + pinouts in the incoming directory. 1227165Vette.zip TPI up to 90 1227727Vette.zip TPI 90-91 16159278Vette1.zip 16159278Vette2.zip 1992-93 LT1 Vette Apologies for any duplicates. If I've uploaded redundant files, please let me know and I'll remove them. Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 23:05:56 -0400 From: "Ord Millar" Subject: Re: Intake Air Temperature Depends on required accuracy... I like national LM34DZ - it outputs 10mV/degree F, doesn't require a fancy power supply, or any circuitry on the output, and they're cheap. They are good to around 1 celcius. Instantaneous is impossible, but with carefull design you should be able to get 15 second response from a semiconductor, RTD or TC in a fast flowing air stream. Be carefull with leads - this is one big source of error and delay. Keep the wires a fine as possible so they don't conduct hear to or away from the sensor. - -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Willis To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Saturday, May 29, 1999 3:43 PM Subject: Intake Air Temperature > > Anybody have any suggestions on how I can accurately and instantaneously >measure intake air temperature? I have had home thermometers suggested, >but have to question their accuracy and ability to respond quickly. Bear >in mind I am NOT yet running EFI, and may not be for some time...so any >suggestions y'all can provide will help most if they work as stand-alone >systems. > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 > AOL IM: hemiyota > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 23:33:43 -0400 From: "C. Brooks" Subject: Re: Haltech F7 Info Needed http://www.haltech.com.au/index.htm I don't have any info for ya, but you can talk to these guys. Charles Brooks - -----Original Message----- From: paul lim To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 12:30 AM Subject: Haltech F7 Info Needed >I am considering purchasing a used Haltech F7 that was previously used on a >4 cylinder Honda. It has all sensors and harness, however no manual nor >software. I am planning on using it on a 6 cylinder turbo application. > >I need to find out if this is a good unit and if it is easy to program. Can >you still get support from Haltech and obtain latest firmware revisions? > >Please email me and let me know where I can get support and any relevant >info. > >TIA > >Paul > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 22:40:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Roger Heflin Subject: Re: Some new, some old The 93 Camaro uses the exat same computer as the 92-93 vette. At least the A4 one I am working on does. Roger On Sat, 29 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > I have placed wiring diagrams + pinouts in the incoming directory. > > 1227165Vette.zip TPI up to 90 > > 1227727Vette.zip TPI 90-91 > > 16159278Vette1.zip > 16159278Vette2.zip 1992-93 LT1 Vette > > Apologies for any duplicates. If I've uploaded redundant files, > please let me know and I'll remove them. > Shannen > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 00:32:40 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Ford info... Anyone know where FORD puts either the Build sheet or Option stickers in their vehicles? Specifically the explorers? Thanks, Dave =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 23:50:35 -0500 (CDT) From: eclark@xxx.com Subject: Re: Some new, some old My 93 Formula A4 also has the same computer, and same PROM as Roger's. - -Eric On Sat, 29 May 1999, Roger Heflin wrote: > > The 93 Camaro uses the exat same computer as the 92-93 vette. At > least the A4 one I am working on does. > > > Roger > > On Sat, 29 May 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > > > I have placed wiring diagrams + pinouts in the incoming directory. > > > > 1227165Vette.zip TPI up to 90 > > > > 1227727Vette.zip TPI 90-91 > > > > 16159278Vette1.zip > > 16159278Vette2.zip 1992-93 LT1 Vette > > > > Apologies for any duplicates. If I've uploaded redundant files, > > please let me know and I'll remove them. > > Shannen > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 May 1999 03:06:54 -0400 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?H=E9l=E8ne?= Villemure" Subject: Re: Ford info... David, no, the only thing I know is where they put the transit papers when they go to scrapyard... MUHHAHAHAHAHAHA Sorry, I couldn't help it :) :) :) Helene David A. Cooley a écrit: > Anyone know where FORD puts either the Build sheet or Option stickers in > their vehicles? > Specifically the explorers? > Thanks, > Dave > > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #319 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".