DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, June 3 1999 Volume 04 : Number 330 In this issue: Re: Prowler V6 Re: Prowler V6 Re: Prowler V6 Re: Best Chevy EFI engine Re: Knock sensors Re: TBI for a 3.4 V-6 crate Motor Re: OBD2 problems Re: Diff types Re: Prowler V6 SBC V8 into Astro/Safari ? Re: Prowler V6 OBD2 solutions Re: Prowler V6 Re: Types of differentials/Traction aiding devices Re: Prowler V6 Re: Knock sensors (SAAB) See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:21:27 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Prowler V6 Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > If you have such a beast, drive to Bridgeport, CT, and I will gladly > refute such a claim after attaching my tachometer to your engine for 30 > minutes :) 30 minutes?! Do you think yer a little hard on the mules? And if I had the beast I was talking about, the question wouldn't have come about in the first place. Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:17:52 -0500 From: "G. Scott Ponton" Subject: Re: Prowler V6 There are four "standards" for fasteners. They relate to the thread pitch more than anything although there are several different "head" sizes. Mostly the Japanese/asian use 10, 12, 14, 17, 21, & 32. The europeon use 10, 13, 14, 17, 19, 21 and various larger sizes. Other than the English. They used to use what was called a Whitworth standard. These are the 3/8 bolts with the "15mm" heads. Actually they are 19/32. They also used 23/32 (i think it was.) I haven't seen those wrenches since my tools were stolen. You used to get them in every Craftman set up until about 1975. You will also notice that most, nearly all, of the English bolts are a "fine" thread pitch. It isn't quite the same as SAE fine as the radius of the thread root is different and although you can use one on the other they ussually are a very tight fit and sometimes destroy the fasteners. Then of course you have SAE standard inch sizes and the famous SAE standard metric sizes. Other than the 15mm the 16 and 18 are so close to SAE 5/8 and 11/16 that many times you can use these sizes to remove them. Maybe had something to do with it at the start. Just my .02$ Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:21:56 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Prowler V6 > I'm surprised ya haven't tried harder. Oh, we've tried hard. Its difficult to balance the weaknesses of oem parts iwth high RPMs and reliability. my 849HP Buick V6 was a perfect example - 29 minutes is not reliable! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 23:32:29 -0500 From: "Dan Plaskett" Subject: Re: Best Chevy EFI engine Michael, You could do what I am currently doing and build a small block 400 bored .030 gives you a 406 ci with boatloads of torque. I know that there are complete TPI units available for reasonable $$$. I pulled a harness out of a 88 Cutlass this past weekend and a computer for almost nothing. The 400 aren't nearly as plentiful as 350s but you can certainly find them. Mine came out of a 76 Caprice. With a proper cam and 10.5 to 1 compression ratio pistons you can easily pump out 450 ft lb of torque or more. Dan Plaskett - -----Original Message----- From: Michael Selig To: Electronic Fuel Injection list Cc: hml@xxx.org> Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 9:54 PM Subject: Best Chevy EFI engine >I am looking to do a couple engine swaps in the near future. I would like >to put a Vortec or equivalvent TPI engine in a Hummer. This needs to have >an RV cam and lots of low end torque to move that 68k lb alum shell around >on the rocks and such. > >My question is: What is the best all around chevy engine and car, > year --to approach an auto salvage yard to acquire the engine harness and >computer, and everything complete that is needed, all in one shot. > >I believe that camaros came with it in 1989. Or should one look to take one >out of later blazer or suburban..?? > >My stock 350 TBI from the Hummer could probably be replanted in the a 79 CJ >5. Would be nice to upgrade it to TPI. > >What is your advise?? > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - >------------------------------------- >Good judgment comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad >judgment. > >"Reality will kill you unless you deal with it through myths and metaphors." >Ray Bradbury > >Learn from the mistakes of others. >You can't live long enough to make them all yourself. > >"This Millenium was for practice. >Next one counts!" > >Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the >straights > >Laws of Life: >1) Don't sweat the small stuff. >2) Everything is small stuff. > >"Love may be blind, but marriage is a real eye-opener" > >Michael Selig, MD, FACC. >www.lifelinecardiology.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:49:12 -0800 From: Ludis Langens Subject: Re: Knock sensors Bill Edgeworth wrote: > I am adapting a 730 to a Mopar RB engine and I have some questions about > Knock sensors: > How sensitive are knock sensors to noise generated by gear drives? If > they are affected would selection solve the problem? ( for instance a > knock sensor off a factory supercharged engine) > What about noise from mechanical (roller cams)? My gear drive Ford 2.8 (EEC-IV w/ carb) uses a knock sensor. It also has solid (click, click, click) lifters. The knock sensor is screwed into a standoff that screws into the side skirt of the block. I'm not sure if the standoff is for noise isolation or to adapt between SAE threads on the KS and metric in the block. BTW, the standoff is, um, press together. (Hmmm, with almost 800 miles on the freshly rebuilt 2.8, it is starting to make more power. This started around 650 miles. I'm not noticing any lifter clacking anymore either. Perhaps the KS was retarding the timing due to lifter noise.) - -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:13:24 -0800 From: Ludis Langens Subject: Re: TBI for a 3.4 V-6 crate Motor Brandon Shehan wrote: > I have a 3.4 L GM V-6 in my Jeep Cherokee [...] > > I got a rotten TBI 2.8 S-10 Blazer engine [...] > > I also have the ECU (service number 1227429). I'm pricing > out harnesses to replicate GM's and need to know if the ECU will be > thoroughly confused by the 20% increase in displacement and need > reprogramming. GM does/did offer a crate 3.4 upgrade for worn out S-10 2.8's. This upgrade includes a new chip for the ECM. Perhaps you can order just the chip by itself. - -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:01:44 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: OBD2 problems Roger Heflin wrote: > > On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Curtis Mittong wrote: > > > Whoever has knowledge of this stuff may want to contact me offlist. I have > > alot of dumb questions that are probably below your intelligence levels and > > I don't want to clog up the list with too much "entry-level" chatter. > > > > Background: I have a 96 Impala SS. I plan on making the LT1 into a 409 > > (4.030 x 4"...which actually makes 408.17) and totally starting from the > > ground up. I am tired of bolt-ons that make a certain HP, I want to tailor > > each part to each other part and get a good reliable streetable engine. I > > am planning on output being in the 600+ hp range. I think with the right > > tuning, I could get 650hp to pass a sniffer, but without OBD2 compatibility, > > I'm not technically legal. > > > > I think there aren't alot of people that could make a computer > controlled drivable engine with the stock ECM. I dont thing the stock > ECM runs into limits, rather the sides of the injectors required to > fuel things make the idle bad. I am not really how sure I believe > that as my 350 Lt1 is driving 30lb injectors just find and the idle is > just fine (after quite a bit of adjusting). I think the other issue > is with radical changes you need to change more than just the WOT fuel > table, you need to properly adjust the VE table for things to run > good, and this takes alot of time to do properly. > > > There is a web site that has stories from a person/company that was working to make 500 hp emission legal Vettes. I'm not sure of the years, and I can't quite remember the name of the man, but the web page gives a good sense of what it takes to make this work. This company was associated with race cars at one time, and maybe suspension parts or work. It isn't Ligenfelter or Calloway. Anyone have any suggestions? Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 01:01:11 -0400 (EDT) From: William T Wilson Subject: Re: Diff types On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, SPECTRO COATING CORP. wrote: > Actually - Torsen was the manufacturer - Bob (I think that's his first > name) Gleason invented that differential design. Zexel was the I know. All four of those definitions were jokes - although a lot of people do seem to think that somebody named Torsen (which actually means Torque Sensing, I believe) invented it :} ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:02:00 -0500 (CDT) From: eclark@xxx.com Subject: Re: Prowler V6 On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > Todd....!! wrote: > > > > It's true.... > > > > That the almighty crescent wrench may be used for multiple tasks... > I once found a crescent that had been lying beside the road for > years. It was rusted solid, and no amount of effort could free up the > thumbwheel. Alas, it was a one size fits-all. Once my brother found a broke craftsman hammer in a $25 Chevette he bought. He took the hammer to sears and got it replaced, and the car ended up being a pretty good deal after all :) - -Eric ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 01:32:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Subject: SBC V8 into Astro/Safari ? I am looking for as much info as possible on the V8 into GM minivan swap a number of people offered me help before but I cannot find where I saved the messages (I have about 400 MB of archived email and it grows 4-5mb / day) I want to retain stock computer TBI system from 1986 Safari Cargo minivan I need details on 1. mounts, rads, waterpumps, etc for the mechanical installation can I use the 4.3 flexplate I have now for the 700 AT what headers work ( v8 into S10/15?) 2. chip changes in the ECU that are required to make it run and be within emissions for the 1986 model year I should be able to use the stock TBI unit with a new cal I seem to remember that I have to change an addr. in the chip to tell the ECU it is now running 8 cyl instead of 6 any other details that could be supplied would be great Thanks Clive n ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 01:35:36 -0400 (EDT) From: William T Wilson Subject: Re: Prowler V6 On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > While I like taking chances and blowing up engines (personal hobby of my > friends and I), I will state that *I* or *WE* have never successfully > revved any production V8 engine to 10,000 RPM. The only V8 engines I ever heard of that went 10,000 RPM were in single-seat racers. Honda VTEC engines and Mazda rotaries can rev like mad because that's what they do. Instead of displacement, they have RPM. Mazda rotary has a stock redline of 8,000 RPM and that is conservative; new S2000 Honda VTEC has a stock redline of 9,000 RPM. Neither of these engines is going to be even slightly upset about going to 10,000 once in a while. You just can't do that with a big V8, though. It weighs too much. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 01:37:19 -0400 From: "Curtis Mittong" Subject: OBD2 solutions This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BEAD61.9E6F9BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks all for your inputs. >I dont thing the stock >ECM runs into limits, rather the sides of the injectors required to >fuel things make the idle bad. This is good. I didn't know that larger injectors made potentially rough idles. Its stuff like this that I need to know. >Now maybe if you went with solid lifters and raised the >rev limiter to 7k+ you could get that kind of hp, but I don't think >most people class solid lifters as streetable, and the engine life >with that stroke and high rpms would be severly limited. >Now there are a few people getting over 600hp on a streetable Lt1 but >they are all using large blowers (close to 20psi or more), or large >N2O shots. Do you think that maybe 4-valve heads could support alot more accurate flow with hydraulic lifters? I agree that solid lifters aren't the answer. I built a 455 pontiac with solids and the 3000 mile adjustments started getting to me. (it had 522 at the rears, but the constant 104 octane bills hurt too) As far as the RPMs, I couldn't take it over 6500 and feel good about the longevity of the package. I guess what I'm thinking is that if 592 is possible with hydraulic lifters, maybe 600+ is possible. I need to find that writeup and give you all the specs on that LT1 that CHP mag built. I'm still trying to find the final verdict on the cylinder walls. I thought they were too thin to even go 30-over, but I read about a kit for LT1s that was a 414 ci stroker kit that called for a 60-over. They also have 4.125" stroke cranks, but I thought for sure you would be into the jackets clearancing that. Whooda thunk it? >idled beautifully... BLM at 128 and INT bouncing between 127 and 129. >WOT was very pleasant as well with the injectors only about 60% duty cycle. Ummm.... BLM? INT? Big Loud Motor? Impressive New Trailer? Curtis Mittong - ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BEAD61.9E6F9BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks all for your inputs.  =
 
>I dont thing the = stock
>ECM runs into=20 limits, rather the sides of the = injectors=20 required to
>fuel things make the idle bad.   =
 
This is good.  I didn't know = that larger=20 injectors made potentially rough idles.  Its stuff like this that I = need to=20 know.
 
>Now maybe if you went with solid = lifters and=20 raised the
>rev limiter to 7k+ you could get that kind of hp, but = I don't=20 think
>most people class solid lifters as streetable, and the = engine=20 life
>with that stroke and high rpms would be severly = limited.
>Now=20 there are a few people getting over 600hp on a streetable Lt1 = but
>they=20 are all using large blowers (close to 20psi or more), or = large
>N2O=20 shots.
 
Do you think that maybe 4-valve = heads could=20 support alot more accurate flow with hydraulic lifters?  I agree = that solid=20 lifters aren't the answer.  I built a 455 pontiac with solids and = the 3000=20 mile adjustments started getting to me.  (it had 522 at the rears, = but the=20 constant 104 octane bills hurt too)  As far as the RPMs, I couldn't = take it=20 over 6500 and feel good about the longevity of the package.  I = guess what=20 I'm thinking is that if 592 is possible with hydraulic lifters, maybe = 600+ is=20 possible.  I need to find that writeup and give you all the specs = on that=20 LT1 that CHP mag built.  I'm still trying to find the final verdict = on the=20 cylinder walls.  I thought they were too thin to even go 30-over, = but I=20 read about a kit for LT1s that was a 414 ci stroker kit that called for = a=20 60-over.  They also have 4.125" stroke cranks, but I thought = for sure=20 you would be into the jackets clearancing that.  Whooda thunk=20 it?
 
>idled beautifully... BLM at 128 = and INT=20 bouncing between 127 and 129.
>WOT was very pleasant as well with = the=20 injectors only about 60% duty cycle.
 
Ummm.... BLM?  INT?  Big = Loud=20 Motor?  Impressive New Trailer?
 
Curtis = Mittong
- ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BEAD61.9E6F9BA0-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 01:39:59 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Prowler V6 No one had mentioned reliably, til now, the question was just 10,000 rpm. Doc | > I'm surprised ya haven't tried harder. | Oh, we've tried hard. Its difficult to balance the weaknesses of oem | parts iwth high RPMs and reliability. | my 849HP Buick V6 was a perfect example - 29 minutes is not reliable! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 02:17:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Subject: Re: Types of differentials/Traction aiding devices > > Having the diff locked won't make any difference in mileage. onroad it can reduce milage very sligtly because of the binding in the drivtrain offroad it will increase milage if you spend a lot of time spinning tires and going nowhere without it its a good trade Clive ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:42:01 +0800 From: dzorde@xxx.com Subject: Re: Prowler V6 Surely not, these are the type you just go to the local hardware and get (not high tensile), still shiny plating on them and its a big hardware chain so stock should be replenished quite often. Maybe its the Asian version of the imperial sizes. Use a 10mm casting but thread it to 3/8" ? Dan dzorde@xxx.com Shannen Durphey on 03-06-99 11:55:52 AM Please respond to diy_efi@xxx.edu To: diy_efi@xxx.edu cc: (bcc: Dan Zorde/Transit/ERG_Group) Subject: Re: Prowler V6 dzorde@xxx.com wrote: > > Yeah, there are the Asian metric sizes (like 12mm, 15mm, 18mm hex heads) and > European metric sizes (like 13mm, 17mm, 19mm hex heads). And lately I have > started finding 3/8" nuts and bolts with 15mm hex heads (I was quite surprised > to find that neither a 9/16" or a 5/8" ring spanner would fit, but a 15mm did) > > Dan dzorde@xxx.com > Once upon a time, American wrench sets came with a 19/32" wrench. This works out to 14.5 mm. Any chance this is what you have found? Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 17:15:19 +1000 From: Peter Gargano Subject: Re: Knock sensors (SAAB) Actually the Trionic system is a capacitive Discharge (CDI) system so that it's actually an expanding AND collapsing magnetic field (sorry to be so technical!). Another interesting thing is that the primary coil is just 10 turns. They used flat wire to give a low resistance AND so thay could cool the coils more easily. As it's a CDI system, the capacitor is charged to perhaps 400 Volts and this also helps to generate the claimed 40,000 Volts (that's just a 1:100 ratio, not 1:3000 for a 12-14 Volt conventional ignition system) A70Duster@xxx.com wrote: > > Peter Gargano wrote: > > << including a cutaway of their Trionic coil - seems to have a ferrite > core and turns ratio of about 1:5, but they claim "40,000 at the moment > of ignition" - explain that! >> > > The voltage from an inductor is > > v(t) = L di/dt > > Also collapsing magnetic fields. Plus 40 kV is not new to electronic > ignition systems. - -- Peter Gargano ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #330 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".