DIY_EFI Digest Friday, June 4 1999 Volume 04 : Number 334 In this issue: Re: TBI for a 3.4 V-6 crate Motor Re: metric to english conversion Re: Prowler V6 Re: Types of differentials/Traction aiding devices Re: Types of differentials/Traction aiding devices Re: metric to english conversion RE: metric to english conversion Re: Prowler V6 Re: Prowler V6 Re: Prowler V6 Re: Prowler V6 Re: metric to english conversion Re: Types of differentials/Traction aiding devices Re: metric to english conversion Re: Cast ironvs. Steel was Prowler V6 RE: metric to english conversion See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 21:32:32 EDT From: AL8001@xxx.com Subject: Re: TBI for a 3.4 V-6 crate Motor >From the Jim Pace GM performance catalog www.paveparts.com. < cut > " The HT 3.4 is a bolt in replacement for the 2.8 in your 1982- 1985 S-10 pickup or Blazer. And it's emission legal in 49 states ( yes, you guessed it, California said no)" < cut > " The induction system. ignition system, exhaust, emissions controls, water pump and other parts are already on your truck" The graph shows Max ~ 155 Hp at 5000 ~ 180 Ft lb at 2750 The 82 to 85 truck 2.8 was not electronic carbed and mechanical/vac advance distrubitor. Harold ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 20:20:55 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: metric to english conversion >But we CAN'T go metric. All the football and baseball fields would have to >change. > >Gary Derian > >> >> I grew up outside the US, with the metric system, and I can't believe >> how hard we make life for ourselves here in the USA by sticking to the >> English system, which even the English don't use any more! >> >> -John Carri >> Given all of the bureaucratic nonsense that ISO has come up with, I'm just as glad for us to have a system of units that is insulated from idiotic French bureaucracy and "world" politics!! IMO , USS, SAE, and NPT thread standards are generally better designs that ALL of the various DIN, JIS, French, and Italian metric thread junk. Also, the inch (and both numerical and decimal fractions thereof) are VERY much more practical scale units for machine work and tolerancing than mms. ever will be, thank you very much. Regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:47:22 EDT From: ECMnut@xxx.com Subject: Re: Prowler V6 This thread has taken some interesting turns. The forged vs cast crankshaft debate has many points. Don't think that you absolutely must have a forged crank in a street car (even with a turbo). I very much agree with you, regarding the the flex and superior durability of forged crankshafts. A relative of mine builds Chevs & some SB Mopars for NHRA Super Stock class cars, and he insists that the cast cranks flex less, resulting for more accurate spark/valve/combustion events from cylinder to cylinder. Cast cranks have some potential, but it is limited.. A typical SB chev V8 in a class car, (let's say a camaro) is required to use the GM Quadrajet and correct casting number cylinder heads, (1.94 intakes) as well as factory compression. They make big power numbers because of insane roller cam profiles, and 8,500+ rpm. ($ yes, it takes a hoot of a tough a valve train $) When doing this with a cast crank, it is mandatory to throw the fatigued crank away at the end of the season. A typical 10.25 to 1 compr small block 350 quadrajet engine in a 2900 pound Camaro had better turn high 9's or it won't compete. This is not to say that they don't use forged cranks too. The use both. EFI content - DFI's & other EFI systems are showing up in many Stock & Super stock classes as of late. Carb jetting will FINALLY be replaced by software tweaking. Mike V Hoping to see Nascar go EFI someday soon. > The reason for using a forged crank as compared to a cast one is > actually more a matter of "flexability." with a cast crank the material > isn't as flexable as the forged counterpart. When you consider the abuse a > crankshaft takes during engine operation, the constant twist and untwist as > power pulses are applied, it becomes fairly evident why the forged steel > crank tends to "live" longer. Especially when engine speed is taken above > 5,000 revs ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 00:17:22 -0400 From: Raymond C Drouillard Subject: Re: Types of differentials/Traction aiding devices You guys wouldn't be talking about smooth, specially prepared pavement, would you? Any wimp can drive the family minivan on the pavement. It's fine for getting to and from the grocery store, but the real driving is done over the rocks, through the mud, or up the sand dunes. I suppose you wear a life jacket in the swimming pool, too... Ray On Thu, 3 Jun 1999 17:19:13 -0400 "Bruce Plecan" writes: > >| > > or straight line driving, most drivers don't call straight >| > line stuff >| > > real driving, corners are where the men are seperated from the boys >| > Oh really now? So, you considering holding on for dear life at 300MPH >| > behind 6000HP "boy stuff"? >| Either way, cars are for wankers. REAL men dress in leather >| and drag their knees through the corners. Cars lean the wrong >| way, unlike motorcycles. Anything that surrounds you with a >| roll cage is "boy stuff" compared to throwing your bike into a >| corner at 100+ mph, knee skimming over the pavement, while >| you slide both tires at the same time. > >Just to follow in this logic: >Then a real man rides his 12,000 HP, unicycle, nude......... >Covered in clue musk oil,,,,,,,,,, >Sneezy > >| > > ( ducking for cover 8)) >| I'm right behind you.... :-) > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 00:20:50 -0400 From: Raymond C Drouillard Subject: Re: Types of differentials/Traction aiding devices Look in any four-wheeler type mag for an ad. Every once in a while, there is a how-to in one of the mags. I know that ARB makes air lockers for lots of different axles - Dana 30, 35, 44, 60, and (I think) 70. I believe the Ford 9" and the GM 8 3/4 are also included. Ray On Thu, 03 Jun 1999 15:06:39 -0700 "Todd....!!" writes: >OK, sounds like an all around GREAT alternative to a spool.... > >Better gas mileage, almost as strong, NUTHIN's stronger than a >spool... >right? > >Where does the air go into the rear gear area, and what creates the >air >pressure? Some sorta pump, I assume? > >What all rearends is this technology built to accomodate? > >May it be applied to an 8 3/4 or Dana 60, or even a Ford 9 incher? > >Just wonderin..... > >Todd.... > >------ > >Pat Ford wrote: >> >> Previously, you (C. Brooks) wrote: >> > That's a good question. I don't know but to put a little >perspective on >> > this... >> > >> > One of the club members has a Toyota truck with a mild 383, TH350 >tranny, >> > Dual Marlin crawler transfer case both with 4.7:1 gears, and Dana >axles (60 >> > rear, 44 front) with 5.?:1 gearing, and 36" swampers. I've seen >him use >> > (Abuse) this truck pretty hard. The final drive ratio in first >gear low >> > range is well over 200:1. That's ALOT of torque multiplication, >and he's >> > never had an ARB fail (YET!) >> >> they are strong >> >> > >> > Having the diff locked won't make any difference in mileage. >> >> it does, no road is straight enough and no 2 tires are exactly the >same dia. >> if I lock the dif the top speed does down and the fuel just pours >into the engine >> >> > >> > Charles Brooks >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Todd....!! >> > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > >> > Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 8:20 PM >> > Subject: Re: Types of differentials/Traction aiding devices >> > >> > >> > >Can ya do a W.O.T. launch with the button OFF, then turn it on in >the >> > >middle of the launch, under FULL TORQUE? >> > > >> > >Just how strong is this unit? >> > > >> > >AND, would a car with one of these air posi's get better gas >mileage >> > >with the posi OFF than it would with the air-posi on? >> > > >> > >Just wondrinnnnn......... >> > > >> > > >> > >LATER! >> > > >> > >Todd....!! >> > > >> > > >> > >Frederic Breitwieser wrote: >> > >> >> > >> > The type of posi is NOT dictated by the type of rear it's in >or made >> > for. There are limited slip, Torsen and locking differentials made >for the >> > Dana 60. If you want to know what type of unit is in the rear >you'll have to >> > actually look at it. >> > >> >> > >> And this is not a sarcastic response, either :) >> > >> >> > >> I'd highly recommend an ARB airlocker for this rear. direct >bolt in, >> > >> easy to control with a pushbutton, and totally open when >needed. >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> >> > >> Frederic Breitwieser >> > >> Bridgeport CT 06606 >> > >> >> > >> 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >> > >> 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy >> > >> 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos >> > >> 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> -- >> Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com >> QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com >> (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews >> (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada >K2M 1W8 > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 00:30:17 -0400 From: Raymond C Drouillard Subject: Re: metric to english conversion Greg, Is your business ISO 9000 certified? :-) (My place of employment started going for it, but they started going for TQM several years ago. I wonder what the next fad will be) Ray >Given all of the bureaucratic nonsense that ISO has come up with, I'm just >as glad for us to have a system of units that is insulated from idiotic >French bureaucracy and "world" politics!! IMO , USS, SAE, and NPT thread >standards are generally better designs that ALL of the various DIN, JIS, >French, and Italian metric thread junk. Also, the inch (and both numerical >and decimal fractions thereof) are VERY much more practical scale units for >machine work and tolerancing than mms. ever will be, thank you very much. > >Regards, Greg > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 20:55:41 -0700 From: "Stowe, Ted-SEA" Subject: RE: metric to english conversion NOTICE: This communication may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient or believe that you may have received this communication in error, please reply to the sender indicating that fact and delete the copy you received. In addition, you should not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. THANK YOU metric to english ? hmm well is it 12 or 13 mm is equiv to a 1/2 inch open end, oh what the hell try both. - -----Original Message----- From: Gary Derian [mailto:gderian@xxx.com] Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 5:36 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: metric to english conversion But we CAN'T go metric. All the football and baseball fields would have to change. Gary Derian > >what is the correct shade tree english to metric conversion? > ______________________________________ > > There are 25.4 millimetres to an inch. Some of those inch- millimetre > "equivalent" sizes listed earlier are close, but not exact: > > Inch size closest metric size exact metric size > 7/16 11 11.1125 > 1/2 13 12.7 > 5/8 16 15.875 > 7/8 21 22.225 > > As you can see, sometimes those "equivalent" sizes are significantly > off, maybe enough to round off the head of a bolt. If high torque is > involved, it's probably best to stick with the correct metric or > english socket. > > I grew up outside the US, with the metric system, and I can't believe > how hard we make life for ourselves here in the USA by sticking to the > English system, which even the English don't use any more! > > -John Carri > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 00:00:28 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Prowler V6 | Mike V | Hoping to see Nascar go EFI someday soon. Now there's an ecm I'd like to see. I give 50 bright shiny pennies to have one of those boxes, and hac'd program Doc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 00:09:40 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Prowler V6 > If it took me 29 minutes to complete the quarter, while running at a > steady 10 grand, my pride and self respect would force me to give up > running on the drums and at least put rims on the car. ; ) Most people didn't get the "joke" hidden in my comments... or didn't remember the Buick V6 that lasted only 29 minutes :( Which is good. The new one is complete and runs very nicely :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:53:12 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Prowler V6 > The reason for using a forged crank as compared to a cast one is >actually more a matter of "flexability." with a cast crank the material >isn't as flexable as the forged counterpart. Actually-- Steel has a significantly high modulus of elasticity than cast iron, both in tension and in shear. Which means that a steel crank is, in fact, quite a bit STIFFER than a cast one. -It does NOT flex as much!-- The steel is, however, much more DUCTILE than cast iron, even if compared to so-called "ductile" (or nodular) cast iron. "Ductile" and "brittle" are pretty much antonyms in this context. This means that a steel part will deform and "tear" far more than an iron one will when it actually fails, even though it takes a much higher level of stress to produce a failure in a steel part. A steel part also has FAR greater resistance to the initiation of cracks when subjected to alternating tensile and compressive stresses than an iron part does. In fact--steel has a well defined "endurance limit" of stress under fatigue failure inducing alternating stress conditions, and cast iron does not. A cast part usually will usually absorb vibrations far better than a steel one will--which makes the need for more sophisticated, expensive vibration dampers on cast production cranks less pressing than it is on forged steel cranks. Witness the fact that if you tap a cast crank with a hammer, it gives a clunk sound, while a forged crank will ring like a bell. Because a steel crank is actually much stiffer than a cast crank, your blocks would probably stand up to significantly more HP if you ran forged steel cranks in them---because a stiffer crank would not impose nearly as much strain (deflection) onto the bearing webs! (In a case like the block failures you are getting, strain (imposed deflection) is the CAUSE of the stress, not the other way around!) Of course, you would be wise to run a Fluidampr on a forged crank in this application because of a forged crank's decreased capacity to damp out (absorb) torsional vibrations compared to a cast crank. Regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:06:08 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Prowler V6 and he insists that >the cast cranks flex less, resulting for more accurate >spark/valve/combustion events from cylinder to cylinder. Betcha he is trying to run the forged cranks with a regular damper. Put a good viscous damper on a forged crank and this problem goes away. The cast cranks damp out the vibrations better, but they are _not_ stiffer! Greg ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:11:16 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: metric to english conversion >Greg, > >Is your business ISO 9000 certified? :-) Not only NO, but f***ing h*ll NO! Greg > >(My place of employment started going for it, but they started going for >TQM several years ago. I wonder what the next fad will be) > >Ray > > >>Given all of the bureaucratic nonsense that ISO has come up with, I'm >just >>as glad for us to have a system of units that is insulated from idiotic >>French bureaucracy and "world" politics!! IMO , USS, SAE, and NPT >thread >>standards are generally better designs that ALL of the various DIN, JIS, >>French, and Italian metric thread junk. Also, the inch (and both >numerical >>and decimal fractions thereof) are VERY much more practical scale units >for >>machine work and tolerancing than mms. ever will be, thank you very >much. >> >>Regards, Greg >> >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 23:16:23 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Types of differentials/Traction aiding devices >Look in any four-wheeler type mag for an ad. Every once in a while, >there is a how-to in one of the mags. > >I know that ARB makes air lockers for lots of different axles - Dana 30, >35, 44, 60, and (I think) 70. I believe the Ford 9" and the GM 8 3/4 are >also included. Yes on all of these apps for the air locker, including the one for the D-70. And the one for the 70 can be adapted for the D-80 in some cases. Dunno if they are doing one for the D-50 yet (another Ford not-so good idea). And the one for the D-60 will also fit a D-61. Also--some Toy pumpkins are covered. After all--ARB is from Oz. Greg > >Ray > > > >On Thu, 03 Jun 1999 15:06:39 -0700 "Todd....!!" >writes: >>OK, sounds like an all around GREAT alternative to a spool.... >> >>Better gas mileage, almost as strong, NUTHIN's stronger than a >>spool... >>right? >> >>Where does the air go into the rear gear area, and what creates the >>air >>pressure? Some sorta pump, I assume? >> >>What all rearends is this technology built to accomodate? >> >>May it be applied to an 8 3/4 or Dana 60, or even a Ford 9 incher? >> >>Just wonderin..... >> >>Todd.... >> >>------ >> >>Pat Ford wrote: >>> >>> Previously, you (C. Brooks) wrote: >>> > That's a good question. I don't know but to put a little >>perspective on >>> > this... >>> > >>> > One of the club members has a Toyota truck with a mild 383, TH350 >>tranny, >>> > Dual Marlin crawler transfer case both with 4.7:1 gears, and Dana >>axles (60 >>> > rear, 44 front) with 5.?:1 gearing, and 36" swampers. I've seen >>him use >>> > (Abuse) this truck pretty hard. The final drive ratio in first >>gear low >>> > range is well over 200:1. That's ALOT of torque multiplication, >>and he's >>> > never had an ARB fail (YET!) >>> >>> they are strong >>> >>> > >>> > Having the diff locked won't make any difference in mileage. >>> >>> it does, no road is straight enough and no 2 tires are exactly the >>same dia. >>> if I lock the dif the top speed does down and the fuel just pours >>into the engine >>> >>> > >>> > Charles Brooks >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: Todd....!! >>> > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu >> >>> > Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 8:20 PM >>> > Subject: Re: Types of differentials/Traction aiding devices >>> > >>> > >>> > >Can ya do a W.O.T. launch with the button OFF, then turn it on in >>the >>> > >middle of the launch, under FULL TORQUE? >>> > > >>> > >Just how strong is this unit? >>> > > >>> > >AND, would a car with one of these air posi's get better gas >>mileage >>> > >with the posi OFF than it would with the air-posi on? >>> > > >>> > >Just wondrinnnnn......... >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >LATER! >>> > > >>> > >Todd....!! >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >Frederic Breitwieser wrote: >>> > >> >>> > >> > The type of posi is NOT dictated by the type of rear it's in >>or made >>> > for. There are limited slip, Torsen and locking differentials made >>for the >>> > Dana 60. If you want to know what type of unit is in the rear >>you'll have to >>> > actually look at it. >>> > >> >>> > >> And this is not a sarcastic response, either :) >>> > >> >>> > >> I'd highly recommend an ARB airlocker for this rear. direct >>bolt in, >>> > >> easy to control with a pushbutton, and totally open when >>needed. >>> > >> >>> > >> -- >>> > >> >>> > >> Frederic Breitwieser >>> > >> Bridgeport CT 06606 >>> > >> >>> > >> 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >>> > >> 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy >>> > >> 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos >>> > >> 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com >>> QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com >>> (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews >>> (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada >>K2M 1W8 >> >> > >___________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html >or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 01:35:46 EDT From: Regnirps@xxx.com Subject: Re: metric to english conversion >I grew up outside the US, with the metric system, and I can't believe >how hard we make life for ourselves here in the USA by sticking to the >English system, which even the English don't use any more! >-John Carri I can give you a lot of good reasons not to use the French System in an essay I have on hand if you give me your email address : ) Charlie Springer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 02:24:57 -0500 From: "G. Scott Ponton" Subject: Re: Cast ironvs. Steel was Prowler V6 Greg, All points well taken but a few contradictions. If the steel part is so much stiffer why does it have a harder time tampening tortional vibes. Ductile essentially means "bendable without breaking." It is for this reason all your points hold true. Other than the one about the block. The problem with the blocks isn't one caused by the stiffness or flexability of the crank. I have tried running a steel crank in the same app. The block broke in exactly the same way!!! The main caps and bolts are not failing. What happens is the angularity of the rods causes the crank to try and go through the side of the block. The main area is just not strong enough. Usually it will crack through the center three mains then continue up through the cam bores. The only parts not broken are the #1 and #5 main webs. Although I did have one that I was twisting to 7500 that had started to crack through the front (#1) main too. A forged crank for a 455 is a custom item and quite a pricey piece to have break in 6 or 7 pieces when the block fails. Rumor has it someone is starting production on some new block castings that have stronger main webs. Naturally they are also rumored to be pricey too. At the moment I don't have that much $$$ in the whole engine. Scott ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:12:06 +0100 From: "Robertson, Nigel" Subject: RE: metric to english conversion Go on then, just for fun, email me a copy please. Nigel (English) _________________________________________________________________________ Nigel Robertson, BEng. CEng. MIEE. Senior Engineer Roke Manor Research Ltd Old Salisbury Lane Romsey SO51 0ZN Tel 01794 833524 Fax 01794 526943 email nigel.robertson@xxx.uk > -----Original Message----- > From: Regnirps@xxx.com] > Sent: 04 June 1999 06:36 > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: metric to english conversion > > >I grew up outside the US, with the metric system, and I can't believe > >how hard we make life for ourselves here in the USA by sticking to the > > >English system, which even the English don't use any more! > > >-John Carri > > I can give you a lot of good reasons not to use the French System in an > essay > I have on hand if you give me your email address : ) > > Charlie Springer ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #334 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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