DIY_EFI Digest Monday, June 7 1999 Volume 04 : Number 340 In this issue: Re: Metric essay 02 Sensors Re: 02 Sensors Re: Metric essay No EFI content Re: Metric essay Injector geometry Re: What mfg are GM eproms? No metric essay content Re: 02 Sensors Re: Injector geometry Re: Metric essay Re: Metric essay Re: Metric Not! C. Towne Springer Torque Converters Re: Metric Not! C. Towne Springer Re: Metric essay Re: Metric essay Re: 02 Sensors Re: Injector geometry Re: What mfg are GM eproms? Re: beginner-how to ID chips? Re: Torque Converters re: 10,000 rpm v8 (how about Pro Stock?) Re: Torque Converters Re: 02 Sensors Re: Torque Converters Re: Injector geometry Re: metric to english conversion Re: beginner-how to ID chips? Re: Metric essay Re: Twin O2 sensor question RE: SBC V8 into Astro/Safari ? Re: SBC V8 into Astro/Safari ? Re: SBC V8 into Astro/Safari ? fuel pump question Re: 10,000 rpm v8 (how about Pro Stock?) Re: 02 Sensors Re: 10,000 rpm v8 (how about Pro Stock?) See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 02:01:35 -0700 From: Aaron Willis Subject: Re: Metric essay At 03:51 AM 6/6/99 EDT, you wrote: > >Great Mother of Pearl! I never realised how awfull it is! Next time you need >to figure out how many furlongs per fortnight you can do with a 50 hogshead >load let me know and I'll work it out for you. I hate to see people suffer. > >Charlie Springer > Surprised nobody's mentioned STONE yet...a very handy unit of measurement. If only i can remember how many pounds there are in a stone...or is it farthings? This whole thread reminds me of the Airspeed Velocity of an Unladen Swallow thread in Monty Python and the Holy Grail! "Is that an African swallow or a European swallow?" "Well...I don't know that! AAaaaaaahhhhhrrgghh...." ;-) Aaron Willis ICQ #27386985 AOL IM: hemiyota http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 19:45:47 +1000 From: "Geffro" Subject: 02 Sensors I was told a while ago that AFR meters have a limited lifespan due to the conditions they operate in If this is the case why dont 02 sensors have to be replaced every 250 hrs (or whatever the lifespan of the meters is) Are the 02 sensors just another way of measuring the AFR or not? Co(2)nfused Geoff ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 09:07:04 -0400 From: Jeff Smith Subject: Re: 02 Sensors Maybe this is a dumb question...but what kind of AFR meter are you talking about? Mine is just an LM3914-based LED bar graph that sits on my A-pillar...nothing at all harsh about that. It connects to the stock O2 sensor...there is no part of it subjected to anything but Florida sun, so that makes no sense to me unless you're talking about something completely different. jds Geffro wrote: > > I was told a while ago that AFR meters have a limited lifespan due > to the conditions they operate in > If this is the case why dont 02 sensors have to be replaced every > 250 hrs (or whatever the lifespan of the meters is) > Are the 02 sensors just another way of measuring the AFR or not? > Co(2)nfused > Geoff ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 08:27:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Metric essay No EFI content - -> For the metric advocates, when you learn Chinese come on back and try - -> to sell that also, since the majority of the world speaks that. Mandarin or Cantonese? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 09:02:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Metric essay - -> farthings? This whole thread reminds me of the Airspeed Velocity of - -> an Unladen Swallow thread in Monty Python and the Holy Grail! Yeah, and nobody has even brought up tapers or guages yet! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 08:42:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Injector geometry - -> I am ready to poke some holes for injectors in my mopar 440 tunnel - -> ram. My question is it appears that I will not be able position the - -> injectors to point directly at the back of the intake valve. How - -> important is this? Well, to hear the talking heads babble, it's critically important. In practice, engines like the small block Chevy and Ford with port injection mount the injectors so they squirt on the opposite wall at 45 degrees or so, which is about as much as they can angle the injectors without kinking the intake runners around the injector bodies. ==dave.williams@xxx.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 10:09:25 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: What mfg are GM eproms? No metric essay content I Trying to reprogram eproms from a | GM 1227748 (sequential turbo MAF) ECM. I need to know the manufacturer | of the chip to set up the device type in my EMP10 programmer. What is | it? The programmer doesn't tell my as far as I know. Apparently I'm | supposed to know? I just use the generic entry.. I The chips are only marked | "Delco" along with a bunch of part numbers that mean nothing to me. I | can't even get one to read correctly without knowing that info. Any body | want to help out a newbie? There aren't any easy answers, on a new ecm. Usually if there is a bin, on the FTP, then you can look at it's size and go that way. If the chip has 24 pins and is in a black carrier then it is a 2732. If in a memcal then it can be a 27128/256/512. The bins listed for that ecm are S19 which I don't deal with. If you manipulate them and change them to bin files then a 4K lenght file is a 2732, 16K is a 27128, 32K 27256, and a 64K is a 27512. Bruce No metric content ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 10:58:11 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: 02 Sensors > talking about? Mine is just an LM3914-based LED bar graph that sits on > my A-pillar...nothing at all harsh about that. It connects to the stock > O2 sensor...there is no part of it subjected to anything but Florida I just finished making one last night... using a schematic off the diyefi ftpsite. Anyway, using one of those 10 LED bargraph displays, a very small piece of perf-board, I can almost shove it into a 2-1/4" guage housing. Just have to round the edges of the perf-board. Anyone know where I can get a gauge housing, without having to buy a functioning gauge to chop up? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 11:05:47 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Injector geometry > I am ready to poke some holes for injectors in my mopar 440 tunnel ram. > My question is it appears that I will not be able position the injectors > to point directly at the back of the intake valve. How important is > this? The injectors are 36# Ford Motor sports units. Ya, tunnel rams have very long, downward tubes. You should try to inject at the valve backs the best you can, but its not mission critical. You might consider milling the injector boss holes on an angle, to inject it into the airstream. I chose to keep it real simple and bore perpendicular to the valley plane, and after testing the design on the engine, its okay and I'm not really worried about it. > However this will make for some difficult machining in a tight spot. Machine from the intake ports upwards through the runners on an angle... then weld the bosses in, then grind enough of the inside of the boss away that the injector still seals good, yet is slightly exposed tip-wise. Honestly, Unless you are building a very high performance engine, its not the most critical thing in the world from what I can tell with my 383 stroker (431 cid). I used a streetmaster aluminum intake. http://www.xephic.dynip.com/dodge/dodge.html Off the left-handed menus, select "Engine" then "383swap" then "EFI Intake", and you can see what I ended up with. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 11:34:54 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Metric essay Dave Williams wrote: > > -> farthings? This whole thread reminds me of the Airspeed Velocity of > -> an Unladen Swallow thread in Monty Python and the Holy Grail! > > Yeah, and nobody has even brought up tapers or guages yet! > The beauty of standards is that there are so many to choose from. Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 11:35:17 -0400 From: "Clare Snyder" Subject: Re: Metric essay > > > Surprised nobody's mentioned STONE yet...a very handy unit of measurement. > If only i can remember how many pounds there are in a stone...or is it > farthings? 14 lbs to the stone. This whole thread reminds me of the Airspeed Velocity of an > Unladen Swallow thread in Monty Python and the Holy Grail! "Is that an > African swallow or a European swallow?" > "Well...I don't know that! AAaaaaaahhhhhrrgghh...." ;-) > > > > Aaron Willis > ICQ #27386985 > AOL IM: hemiyota > http://surf.to/garage-te51 Garage TE51 International ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 09:45:34 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Metric Not! C. Towne Springer > >Did anyone know that a "barrel" is 31 and 1/2 gallons (is that imperial >or US gallons?) > I believe that that is a keg you are talking about, and at least here it is 31.5 US gallons. A barrel is two kegs. Been there, drunk that, but not all at one sitting! 8-0 Mebbe imperial kegs is why the Brits think their beer is better?? (Spaten and Pschorr preferred here, regardless of the liquid measure used on it!) Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 12:01:10 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Torque Converters It would alsmost seem, like with the advent of solenoids controlling the shifting, that some sort of direct drive would be possible for the pump in an automatic tranny, using solenoids for a "bleed-off" type, system for stand still operation. Anuone know how the Converterless Powerglides work with just the one lever valve, for controllong it?. Seems like a PCM controller would be rather easy to do. Grumpy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 12:30:26 -0400 From: "Clare Snyder" Subject: Re: Metric Not! C. Towne Springer - ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Gargano To: Sent: Sunday, June 06, 1999 2:34 AM Subject: Re: Metric Not! C. Towne Springer > Regnirps@xxx.com wrote: > > > So, what do you call it when you pay for something you already have? > > Taxes! > > > Re-tooling the most productive economy on the Earth is a GOOD idea? > > I'd suggest a lot of industries re-tool regularly - how much of the > US auto industry now uses robots - this is a fairly recent "re-tool"! > > > I so far avoided the fact that certain body organs sound a lot bigger in > > centimeters, ... > > In Holland some years ago I thought it interesting that the "pondt" (or > a similar pronunciation) was a convenient measure meaning half a Kilogram > (an imperial pound is of course 450 odd grams). > > Did anyone know that a "barrel" is 31 and 1/2 gallons (is that imperial > or US gallons?) 31.5 us gallons to a us liquid barrel, unless it is oil, where it is 42 us gallons. If it is dry material, 26 1/4 us standard gallons, and 36 brittish gallons to a british barrel, wet or dry (31.25 us gallons) > > ... but I think this is a major factor for the European Union's > > "members". > > Don't worry - in 20 years time "six inches" will still mean the same! > > -- > Peter Gargano ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 12:38:37 -0400 (EDT) From: ken mayer Subject: Re: Metric essay > Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 22:46:04 EDT > From: Regnirps@xxx.com > > In a message dated 6/5/99 6:09:23 AM, c95fsg@xxx.se writes: [snip] > >And Fahrenheit....even the americans don't know how > >it works. Alot of people I have talked to on the internet don't know the > >exact Fahrenheit for boiling water...and I don't blame them...there are > >not logic whatsoever in the scale. > > You and they found Fahrenheit confusing because you are making a wrong > assumption. Centigrade is based on freezing and boiling of WATER. Fahrenheit > is based on extremes as felt by the human body! 100 is HOT and 0 is COLD. > Freezing water is no big deal for a woolen clad Northern European, but 0 is > uncomfortably cold. When Mr. Fahrenheit invented the thermometer, he had marked some arbitrary scale on it. When he placed it into icewater, it read 32. When he placed it in his wife's mouth, it read 98.7. When he placed it into boiling water, it read 212. It has nothing to do with feeling hot or cold. The scale is entirely arbitrary. Ken :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 11:17:25 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Metric essay >> > >> Surprised nobody's mentioned STONE yet...a very handy unit of measurement. >> If only i can remember how many pounds there are in a stone...or is it >> farthings? >14 lbs to the stone. Yep-- and one of my favorite units, the Horsepower, is equal to 72,000 stone - furlongs per fortnight (in base ten). If you convert this to a base twelve number, the HP is equal to 35,800 stone-furlongs per fortnight--the numbers were kind to me on this one, didn't have to devise new symbols for "10" or "11" in the base twelve system! And while we are being obtuse let's not forget about the differences in counting across various ponds: Americans think of a million as 10 to the 6th power, a billion as 10 to the 9th power, and a trillion as 10 to the 12th power. Many others around the world think of a million as 10 to the 6th power, a billion as 10 to the 12th power, and a trillion as 10 to the 24th power. No wonder so many "Joe six-pack" type Europeans (or are they "Colin three-packs" over there on account of the stronger beer??) think of us in the US as being insanely wealthy after reading about the size of our federal budget! Regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 13:28:06 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: 02 Sensors At 07:45 PM 6/6/99 +1000, you wrote: >I was told a while ago that AFR meters have a limited lifespan due >to the conditions they operate in >If this is the case why dont 02 sensors have to be replaced every >250 hrs (or whatever the lifespan of the meters is) >Are the 02 sensors just another way of measuring the AFR or not? The sensors used in O2 AFR meters are much different than those used in your car... The ones used in a car are basically a "switch". They put out a known value at 14.7:1 A/F and change extremely rapidly on either side... The ECM looks at the sensor and makes the car toggle from rich to lean and back many times a second to keep an "average" A/F ratio of 14.7:1. What the ECM looks at is O2 cross counts... IE how many times in a certain time period the O2 sensor goes from one voltage extreme, across the stoich voltage (typically 450mV) to the other extreme. an AFR meter (not the one you build for $20.00 for your car) uses a linear O2 sensor that has a voltage or current output that is varying in a linear fashion with the A/F ratio. they only last a short period of time, and are really expensive. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 10:28:19 -0700 (PDT) From: James Weiler Subject: Re: Injector geometry I made a jig for a drill press and did everything myself. The bosses have no more than about 0.5mm variation between them. You might want to think about the fuel rail and what kind of clearance/installation angle it can be at before you start drilling holes. I used D-section aluminum fuel rail from Arizona speed and marine (they have a web site). They sell it as a 6 foot section, but you'll only need 1/2 of that ...now you just HAVE to do another engine :) I think next time I'll just make my own fuel rail from bar stock. This was all done using an Edelbrock Torqer (single plane) for a Boss 351. HTH, jw ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 13:33:38 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: What mfg are GM eproms? At 01:08 AM 6/6/99 -0500, you wrote: >Asked this question about how to identigy chips a few days ago. I'll try >again with a more specific question. Trying to reprogram eproms from a >GM 1227748 (sequential turbo MAF) ECM. I need to know the manufacturer >of the chip to set up the device type in my EMP10 programmer. What is >it? The programmer doesn't tell my as far as I know. Apparently I'm >supposed to know? Sorry, I'm in over my head. The chips are only marked >"Delco" along with a bunch of part numbers that mean nothing to me. I >can't even get one to read correctly without knowing that info. Any body >want to help out a newbie? Greg, I use "Generic" for manufacturer on those... works fine with my PB10 =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 22:39:28 -0600 From: "Programmer" Subject: Re: beginner-how to ID chips? Shannen, I know what he's going through--the GM chips don't have the "normal" numbers on them. If Greg is reading along, pretty much all the GM choices are going to be 27C32, 27C125, 27C256 and 27C512--don't recall running into a 27C64 on anything. I've run into Proms with a raised window--I think those ones are 25C32--in some older 1987 and down Proms. You'll also find on the 1991 and prior 27C32's may program easier with a 27C32A setting on the programmer (whichever one you may have). Try reading the stock chip first with the different settings--after you get a knack for seeing what the "deciphered" program is supposed to look like in the editor, this'll be another clue as to the correct setting. Hope this helps - -----Original Message----- From: Shannen Durphey To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Saturday, June 05, 1999 10:21 PM Subject: Re: beginner-how to ID chips? >greg kring wrote: >> >> Just learning about chip programming. Got all the hardware, all the >> software, just need the knowledge. Trying to just play around by copying >> files from one chip to another. How do I identify a EPROM to use the >> correct programming algorythms? So far I am playing with used OEM >> general motors stuff from the 1227748 ECM. All the chips are marked >> Delco along with bunch of numbers. Where do I go from here? >> greg > >So far, the chips I've seen have a number that corresponds to a choice >in my burner's software. I think I've been lucky. Look for a 2732, >or 2732A on those chips. >Shannen > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 13:42:09 -0500 (CDT) From: eclark@xxx.com Subject: Re: Torque Converters On Sun, 6 Jun 1999, Bruce Plecan wrote: > It would alsmost seem, like with the advent of solenoids controlling the > shifting, that some sort of direct drive would be possible for the pump in > an automatic tranny, using solenoids for a "bleed-off" type, system for > stand still operation. > Anuone know how the Converterless Powerglides work with just the one > lever valve, for controllong it?. Seems like a PCM controller would be > rather easy to do. > Grumpy The lever directly controls the line pressure out of the pump. - -Eric ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 15:28:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Frank/G.speed" Subject: re: 10,000 rpm v8 (how about Pro Stock?) How about NHRA Pro Stock motors? 500 ci, 1300+ hp, 800+ ft-lbs, 9000+ rpm... naturally aspirated. http://www.theoldone.com/archive/pro-stock-racing-engine.htm - -- Frank M. Lin | http://www.g-speed.com/pbh Honda related tech files frank@xxx.com/pbh/fastest drag registry Field Electronics, Z.Speed, NASA, skunkworks http://www.g-speed.com The T.O.O. Archive, Endyn - Energy Dynamics http://www.TheOldOne.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 12:17:32 -0600 From: "Programmer" Subject: Re: Torque Converters I'd think the thing would run like a "wet cat"--no converter multiplication ?? Lyndon - -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Plecan To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 11:49 AM Subject: Torque Converters >It would alsmost seem, like with the advent of solenoids controlling the >shifting, that some sort of direct drive would be possible for the pump in >an automatic tranny, using solenoids for a "bleed-off" type, system for >stand still operation. > Anuone know how the Converterless Powerglides work with just the one >lever valve, for controllong it?. Seems like a PCM controller would be >rather easy to do. > Grumpy > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 12:03:46 -0600 From: "Programmer" Subject: Re: 02 Sensors Geoff, I'm thinking it's moreso that the people running the equipment may not wait for the purge cycle, auto zero, etc...which may cause the O2 to contaminate early. I know if it gets a good slurp of water (condensibles from the exhaust), you can forget about doing any testing for the day . I was told that I'd have to replace the O2 in my MT3500 4 gas every year---not so. AFR meters may be different... Lyndon. - -----Original Message----- From: Geffro To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 6:19 AM Subject: 02 Sensors >I was told a while ago that AFR meters have a limited lifespan due >to the conditions they operate in >If this is the case why dont 02 sensors have to be replaced every >250 hrs (or whatever the lifespan of the meters is) >Are the 02 sensors just another way of measuring the AFR or not? >Co(2)nfused >Geoff > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 15:51:17 -0400 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Torque Converters From: Programmer Subject: Re: Torque Converters | I'd think the thing would run like a "wet cat"--no converter multiplication | ?? Hmm, I missed that, OK so "stick shift" type gearing, but even still for the lose of drivetrain weight, that seems like a minor penalty. Bruce | Lyndon | -----Original Message----- | From: Bruce Plecan | To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> | Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 11:49 AM | Subject: Torque Converters | | | >It would alsmost seem, like with the advent of solenoids controlling the | >shifting, that some sort of direct drive would be possible for the pump in | >an automatic tranny, using solenoids for a "bleed-off" type, system for | >stand still operation. | > Anuone know how the Converterless Powerglides work with just the one | >lever valve, for controllong it?. Seems like a PCM controller would be | >rather easy to do. | > Grumpy | > | > | > | ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 15:57:16 -0400 From: "C. Brooks" Subject: Re: Injector geometry Would you happen to have pics of the final product and/or your home made tooling??? Charles Brooks - -----Original Message----- From: James Weiler To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 4:02 PM Subject: Re: Injector geometry > >I made a jig for a drill press and did everything myself. The bosses >have no more than about 0.5mm variation between them. You might want to >think about the fuel rail and what kind of clearance/installation angle >it can be at before you start drilling holes. I used D-section aluminum >fuel rail from Arizona speed and marine (they have a web site). They >sell it as a 6 foot section, but you'll only need 1/2 of that ...now you >just HAVE to do another engine :) >I think next time I'll just make my own fuel rail from bar stock. >This was all done using an Edelbrock Torqer (single plane) for a Boss 351. > >HTH, >jw > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 19:56:22 +0100 From: Chris Morriss Subject: Re: metric to english conversion In message , Greg Hermann writes >>But we CAN'T go metric. All the football and baseball fields would have to >>change. >> >>Gary Derian >> >>> >>> I grew up outside the US, with the metric system, and I can't believe >>> how hard we make life for ourselves here in the USA by sticking to the >>> English system, which even the English don't use any more! >>> >>> -John Carri >>> > >Given all of the bureaucratic nonsense that ISO has come up with, I'm just >as glad for us to have a system of units that is insulated from idiotic >French bureaucracy and "world" politics!! IMO , USS, SAE, and NPT thread >standards are generally better designs that ALL of the various DIN, JIS, >French, and Italian metric thread junk. Also, the inch (and both numerical >and decimal fractions thereof) are VERY much more practical scale units for >machine work and tolerancing than mms. ever will be, thank you very much. > >Regards, Greg > > It's true that all cars sold in Britain are now using metric threads, but that doesn't mean that they are better. The old UNF and UNC thread pitches were ideal for either nut and bolt fastening (UNF) or for coarse pitch studs in aluminium castings (UNC). The standard range of metric fastenings (here in Europe anyway) are to coarse for one job, and too fine for the other. I believe that there is a greater range of thread pitches used in Japan though. - -- Chris Morriss ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 17:21:22 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: beginner-how to ID chips? Programmer wrote: > > Shannen, > > I know what he's going through--the GM chips don't have the "normal" numbers > on them. Murphy's police waste no time around here. I ran across a chip today with no standard markings. Says 014 32500 AH8749B It's from a 1227747, so I read it as a 2732, and it looks ok. Won't try to program it until I need to. The 748 Eproms I've viewed have been the same size. Again, that's so far. Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:23:59 +0200 From: "Espen Hilde" Subject: Re: Metric essay I think the interesting matter is how is the influence on the people using the different measuring systems. US think BIG is it because of an inch is bigger than a cm? How will thinking in ex.1/2 and 3/4 insted of 13 and 19 influence , more demanding for the brain? different brain training? Maybe easiest is not best after all? The Chinese use a draving describing words , different parts of the brain is in work, different parts is trained ,and I think the end result is different. A car used a gallon fuel......thats just 1, a car used a litre fuel thats only one to.... Thats not much? The Germans thinks in millimetres is it whats makes them so dam accurate? Espen From the country of the trolls ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 22:45:53 +0100 From: Chris Wilson Subject: Re: Twin O2 sensor question In article , apparently wrote: > In a message dated 99-06-02 23:43:13 EDT, shannen@xxx.com writes: > > >an O2 sender just after the 2 turbos join at a common outlet point, > >> then a pre cat, then a bit of plain pipe, with what *appears* to be a > >> second 02 sender, and about 2 feet further back, a second, main cat. > > > >> > > It may be a exhaust over tempature sensor. These have been installed on > 280Z, Rx 7 and such. Check your dash/ owners manual for a warning lamp. Thanks Harold. This will teach me to discount my dads old maxim of "Believe nothing you hear, and half of what you see..." The Supra mailing list have often said that the twin turbo model has 2 Lambda probes, but never *why* . Having removed the second one, it is now obvious that it is a thermocouple, presumably to say when the primary cat has gone into meltdown with leaded fuel, or something :-) Thanks for the answer, and to all the others who replied. I have made the downpipe and all is pretty much hunky dory. Cheers. - -- Best Regards, Chris Wilson. http://www.maximum-bhp.u-net.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 19:06:01 -0400 From: "Scott Feaver" Subject: RE: SBC V8 into Astro/Safari ? Could you send a copy of those mounts my way as well? Thanks.. Scott - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu] On Behalf Of Vance Rose Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 8:32 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: SBC V8 into Astro/Safari ? Hi Charles Would like a copy of the mounts TIA. Have an older copy of JTR book. Friend want to pep up his wife' van. Vance At 02:50 PM 6/3/1999 -0400, you wrote: >I have the JTR book. The Astro Van section is only 4 pages or so but they do >have a full scale drawing of the motor mounts you'll need to fabricate. If >you would like I can scan most of the info for ya. > >Charles Brooks > >-----Original Message----- >From: steve ravet >To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> >Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 2:15 PM >Subject: Re: SBC V8 into Astro/Safari ? > > >> >> >>Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 wrote: >>> >>> I am looking for as much info as possible on the V8 into GM minivan swap >>> >>> a number of people offered me help before but I cannot find where I saved >the >>> messages (I have about 400 MB of archived email and it grows 4-5mb / day) >>> >>> I want to retain stock computer TBI system from 1986 Safari Cargo minivan >>> >>> I need details on >>> 1. mounts, rads, waterpumps, etc for the mechanical installation >>> can I use the 4.3 flexplate I have now for the 700 AT >>> what headers work ( v8 into S10/15?) >> >>Go to www.jagsthatrun.com and get the "chevy tpi/tbi swapping book". >>It's mostly about putting EFI engines into older chevelles and the like, >>but there's a chapter on the Astro conversion. Anything you need in the >>way of mechanical information should be there. >> >>> >>> 2. chip changes in the ECU that are required to make it run and be within >>> emissions for the 1986 model year >> >>Astros came with 747 ECMs, maybe not in '86 but certainly later. Get a >>V8 747 bin from the ftp site and that should be a good starting point. >>Also a 747 ECM if you don't have one. Mike Knell (JTR guy) says it's >>best to buy a complete engine including accessories, ECM, sensors, >>harness, etc. I agree although it's probably more expensive. That way >>you minimize the number of connectors that don't fit, mystery brackets, >>etc. >> >>> >>> I should be able to use the stock TBI unit with a new cal >>> I seem to remember that I have to change an addr. in the chip to tell the >>> ECU it is now running 8 cyl instead of 6 >>> >>> any other details that could be supplied would be great >> >>Read programming 101 and tuning tips, lots of info about the 747 ECM. >> >>> >>> Thanks >>> Clive >>> >>> n >> >>-- >>Steve Ravet >>steve.ravet@xxx.com >>Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. >>www.arm.com >> > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 19:55:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Subject: Re: SBC V8 into Astro/Safari ? the pictures that are porducing large files can be scanned in 8 bit greyscale the line frawings can be scanned in B&W and so can the text save the output os JPEGs and the files will be very small Thanks Clive 416 510 0020 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 21:43:17 -0400 From: "C. Brooks" Subject: Re: SBC V8 into Astro/Safari ? My scanner software is antiquated, it doesn't know about JPEG :) I'll be out of town until Wednesday, I'll scan the pages sometime after that. Man, the mail is gonna pile up!! Charles Brooks - -----Original Message----- From: Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020 To: diy_efi@xxx.edu> Date: Sunday, June 06, 1999 10:31 PM Subject: Re: SBC V8 into Astro/Safari ? > > >the pictures that are porducing large files can be scanned in 8 bit greyscale >the line frawings can be scanned in B&W and so can the text > >save the output os JPEGs and the files will be very small > > >Thanks >Clive >416 510 0020 > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 21:27:30 -0500 From: "John Wu" Subject: fuel pump question I'm converting a zx-11 to fuel injection and had a bosch fuel pump from a different application. The pump supplies way more fuel than the system needs (est 170hp). Will the pump "burn itself out" if too much fuel is returned to the tank through the regulator? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 19:37:41 -0700 From: Bill Edgeworth Subject: Re: 10,000 rpm v8 (how about Pro Stock?) "Frank/G.speed" wrote: > How about NHRA Pro Stock motors? 500 ci, 1300+ hp, 800+ ft-lbs, > 9000+ rpm... naturally aspirated. > The original comment was that NO AMERICAN PRODUCTION CAR CAME WITH A V8 THAT WAS MADE TO TURN 10,000 RPM. Sorry but I don't think you can go down (or ever could) to your local Chev dealer and buy a car with a aluminum or titanium rodded, jessel rocker geared engine with a knife edged 4340 crank ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 22:59:04 -0700 From: garfield@xxx.com (Gar Willis) Subject: Re: 02 Sensors On Sun, 06 Jun 1999 13:28:06 -0400, "David A. Cooley" wrote: >an AFR meter (not the one >you build for $20.00 for your car) uses a linear O2 sensor that has a >voltage or current output that is varying in a linear fashion with the A/F >ratio. they only last a short period of time, and are really expensive. I'm afraid this is largely a marketing "factoid". It's true that ALL O2 sensors degrade via contaminants over time, and this limits their range, which is true of both the switch-type and the wide-band O2 types. But there's also a current marketing/disinformation myth that one of the well-known US mfgs. of high end AFR meters has been promoting, which is that the stock Honda/NTK sensors are "not suitable for measuring rich AFR, and will only last a short time in this environment", all the while that SAME frigging company has been buying their sensors from a Honda dealer whose Parts Dept. mgr. is a buddy of mine! HAH, howja like DEM apples!? [Remember, if you're NOT Horiba, who owns the exclusive rights to build AFR meters with sensors bought directly from NTK, then you as a mfg. will HAVE to be getting your 'NTK' sensors from the "grey" or "parts distribution" market, namely a Honda dealership]. I think the current disinfo campaign relys on the notion that since the Honda VTEC systems are relying/using the Honda/NTK sensor in a lean-burn engine regime, and NOT an enriched/performance one (of course), that they feel they can get away with foisting this myth on the unsuspected & gullible public, as if Honda's use of them on the lean-burn side PROVED (or even spoke to the issue) that they were therefore unsuitable on the rich side. Certainly NO NTK or Honda papers have EVER suggested such bullshit. But it's also pretty disgusting that the company is promoting this outright lie outta one side of their mouth, whilst buying their bloody sensors from Honda. Exact same part no. and everything, as we use with EGOR. They CAN'T even buy them in bulk directly from Honda, cuz Honda won't sell parts that way. My buddy say's they've approached him on that tact, as well as hoping for some steep discounting since they buy around 100/mo., but Honda isn't willing to deal their parts that way, and the best these guys get is the SAME trade level of discounting as WE do!! Heh. Fact is, the company is lucky they can BUY that many from a Honda Parts Dept. without raising objections from Honda. Since Honda isn't interested in making their repair/replacement parts a commodity item, their main issue is keeping the parts required for their service operations, in stock. Lastly, the current pump type sensors now used in almost ALL wide-band AFR meters (except some that are Bosch LSM-11 based), have an inherent hedge against contaminants, because they can be recalibrated to adjust for the diminished O2 pumping/sensing capacity of these sensors over time/contamination. What happens is that beyond a certain point, the current pump circuitry (or of course the sensor), whose quiescent value is programmed during the calibration, simply runs outta steam. This is an issue of robustness of the sensor interface circuit design, in addition to longevity of the sensor. B) Finally, there is NO O2 sensor at present whose output "varies in a linear fashion with the A/F ratio". I know that David may have said that as a simplification for discussion's sake, but it bears observation that even the UEGO sensors are highly non-linear, just in a different way that makes them able to be used over a wide RANGE of measurement, and to be self-calibrating in free-air. Gar ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 03:19:23 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: 10,000 rpm v8 (how about Pro Stock?) Bill Edgeworth wrote: > > "Frank/G.speed" wrote: > > > How about NHRA Pro Stock motors? 500 ci, 1300+ hp, 800+ ft-lbs, > > 9000+ rpm... naturally aspirated. > > > > The original comment was that NO AMERICAN PRODUCTION CAR CAME WITH A V8 > THAT WAS MADE TO TURN 10,000 RPM. > Sorry but I don't think you can go down (or ever could) to your local > Chev dealer and buy a car with a aluminum or titanium rodded, jessel > rocker geared engine with a knife edged 4340 crank You're changing what you're saying, methinks. Production engines aside, you're now implying that 10k can't be reached without these parts. Somebody's going to have to tell the little old V-8 guys they couldn't get their engines to rev. I'm not the expert. I'm just noticing a subtle twist. I'm thinking that there certainly must be engines that hit that rpm without the trick parts you mention. Maybe they're not V8s, but given a small enough bore and stroke, and small enough valves, and the upper rpm limits have to get pretty high. I wonder what was really available, depending on who you were and who your local Chevy dealer was. Shannen ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #340 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".