DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, June 16 1999 Volume 04 : Number 362 In this issue: Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Re: Prowler V6 Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... RE: Combustion Pressure Sensor - revisited Re: Looking for a webpage about Buick GNXs Re: Will Chevy Mount to GMTH425 Toronado/Eldorado Transaxle? Re: o2 sensor Re: Prowler V6 Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Re: Prowler V6 Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Re: Prowler V6 Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... RE: Combustion Pressure Sensor - revisited Re: Prowler V6 Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Re: 730/727 ecu file Re: Looking for a webpage about Buick GNXs Re: Buick V-6, was Prowler V6 Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... RE: Locating maps in an ECU Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Re: Buick V-6, was Prowler V6 Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Re: 730/727 ecu file Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using the same injection system off of your BIG engine(s)? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 03:10:13 -0800 From: Ludis Langens Subject: Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Barry Tisdale wrote: > Ok, with 2 rails feeding each injector, there's maybe 2cc or so "common" volume between any rail and the injector. The fuel pump > prevents backflow; > [...] > Remember liquids are incompressable; the fuel in the unused rail has *nowhere* to go; will get *slight* mixing @ > the interface between the 2 fuels due to turbulence, but again, minimal. Your logic shows that the active fuel shouldn't get into the inactive rail. I suspect that the opposite will happen - the active fuel will suck the inactive fuel out. Fluids flowing past an orifice, pressure drop, yada yada yada. So, will that fuel pump also prevent forward flow, or will it allow a trickle of inactive fuel into it's fuel rail? - -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:19:07 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Prowler V6 > I am planning to adapt one swiped from the front of a DT-466 to the nose of > the crank on my 621 cube multi-turbo motor. And why have you not posted the parts list, assembly pictures, and dyno results of this massive, 621 cid engine? I bet I could fit one in my Dodge D200 if you need a test bed - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:25:53 -0400 From: Barry Tisdale Subject: Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Thanks, Shannen - Ok, on the check valve; might prevent problems, cheap insurance. On the heat soak question; can see how this might happen, especially a worst case of hot engine, parked in the sun & then stuck in traffic, etc. There's more to this than I thought. I see the problem of single-rail w/ dual feeds as slowness in switchover; no, I don't *need* race gas @xxx. Thanks for your comments - lots of food for thought......... Barry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:18:02 -0300 From: "BUTLER, Tom" Subject: RE: Combustion Pressure Sensor - revisited This thought has occurred to me as well. A possible problems with this approach might be drive line shocks propagating back to the crank shaft. Perhaps the transients occur on a different time scale? I'm sure an algorithm could be cooked up to extract the required information, provided the "noise" can be eliminated. TomB > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Sharpe [SMTP:twsharpe@xxx.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 12:45 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Combustion Pressure Sensor - revisited > > Can measuring crankshaft acceleration per degree dewtermine the sweet spot > and how close you are to it??? TomS > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:39:19 -0400 From: David Cooley Subject: Re: Looking for a webpage about Buick GNXs At 11:31 PM 6/15/99 -0400, you wrote: >David > >thank u so much that was the one! No Prob! =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 We are Borg... Prepare to be assimilated! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 06:43:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies Subject: Re: Will Chevy Mount to GMTH425 Toronado/Eldorado Transaxle? On Tue, 15 Jun 1999, Shannen Durphey wrote: > > Daring is not really a necessity. I turned out several hundred over the > > years using nothing but a drill press etc...3/8 is a bit thick, try 1/4 > > inch. > And you always made sure the pilot on the torque converter was > supported by the crankshaft or a bushing. : ) In my experience, the problem was usually at the trans pump end. The common fix was a flat washer between the converter and drive plate for each converter to drive plate bolt ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:43:33 -0400 From: "Peter D. Hipson" Subject: Re: o2 sensor The search engines are great! When I posted that reply I did the search first (didn't want it to be a difficult search... ) and got not only the manufacturer's page (the first hit), but several really cool circuits that did just what you wanted. At 05:28 PM 6/16/99 +1000, you wrote: > > > >>Uh, huh! >> >>There are search engines for this, you know... > >Yeah I realise this but the responses can be fairly >overwhelming without necessarily giving the right >sites >So to those that sent links >Thanks very much and I'll give the search engines >a go first >Cheers >Geoff Richards > > > > >> >>Check out http://www.euronet.nl/users/fo_elmo/afdisplay.htm for an >>interesting implementation. BTW, Lycos will give you the mfgr's page where >>you can D/L a PDF file with the data sheet. >> >>At 07:45 PM 6/15/99 +1000, you wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Nigel wrote >>> >>>>Get hold of a copy of the data sheet of the LM3914 off the web. It shows >>>>you how to connect it up in various ways. >>>> >>>Got an address please >>> >>>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >>>Geoff Richards >>>mha@xxx.com >>>My learning curve seems to start way over my head >>>~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Thanks, >> Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) >> 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon >> > > > Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 07:58:39 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Prowler V6 >> I am planning to adapt one swiped from the front of a DT-466 to the nose of >> the crank on my 621 cube multi-turbo motor. > >And why have you not posted the parts list, assembly pictures, and >dyno results of this massive, 621 cid engine? Well--there ARE no results, yet, just a pile of parts. Projected torque is 925 ft. lbs. from 1500 thru 4000 rpm. Allison promises a lap full of converter blades if one exceeds 4000. > >I bet I could fit one in my Dodge D200 if you need a test bed It would take a pretty big hood bubble, Fred--it measures about 41" from bottom of pan to top of air cleaner and air compressor. (and a fuzz more than that from fan to flywheel) Plus--you'd prolly have to whistle up some stouter front springs and tires--it goes about 1250 pounds, dressed. The bare block is a bit over 400 lbs. Regards, Greg > >-- > >Frederic Breitwieser >Bridgeport CT 06606 > >1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental >1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy >1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos >2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:58:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Previously, you (Barry Tisdale) wrote: > Thanks, Shannen - > > Ok, on the check valve; might prevent problems, cheap insurance. > > On the heat soak question; can see how this might happen, especially a worst case of hot engine, parked in the sun & then stuck in traffic, etc. I don't really see the heatsoak probem if the passages are open between the two rails the not in use passage would vent to the return on the rail in use, or am I missing something > > There's more to this than I thought. I see the problem of single-rail w/ dual feeds as slowness in >switchover; no, I don't *need* race gas @xxx. if you allow a small amount of mixing ( the volume of a single rail, < 1L ) it becomes easy > > Thanks for your comments - lots of food for thought......... > > Barry - -- Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:03:13 -0400 From: David Cooley Subject: Re: Prowler V6 At 07:58 AM 6/16/99 -0600, you wrote: >>> I am planning to adapt one swiped from the front of a DT-466 to the nose of >>> the crank on my 621 cube multi-turbo motor. >> >>And why have you not posted the parts list, assembly pictures, and >>dyno results of this massive, 621 cid engine? > >Well--there ARE no results, yet, just a pile of parts. Projected torque is >925 ft. lbs. from 1500 thru 4000 rpm. Allison promises a lap full of >converter blades if one exceeds 4000. >> >>I bet I could fit one in my Dodge D200 if you need a test bed > >It would take a pretty big hood bubble, Fred--it measures about 41" from >bottom of pan to top of air cleaner and air compressor. (and a fuzz more >than that from fan to flywheel) Plus--you'd prolly have to whistle up some >stouter front springs and tires--it goes about 1250 pounds, dressed. The >bare block is a bit over 400 lbs. So what is it? GM, MACK, Detroit Diesel? =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 We are Borg... Prepare to be assimilated! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:10:55 -0400 From: David Cooley Subject: Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... At 09:58 AM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote: >> There's more to this than I thought. I see the problem of single-rail w/ >dual feeds as slowness in >switchover; no, I don't *need* race gas @ 1 psi, >but @xxx. Just picked 1 >psi as arbitrary switchover point (controlled by pressure switch, not >manual). >If there's enough 'lead time', manually switching over would work >fine, w/ the purge valve delays, etc. >I wanted sort of an automatic >system, but it doesn't look as if its 'instantly' do-able. Dual injectors >>would be ideal, of course. How about you have 2 totally seperate systems, not interconnected. Both fuel pumps run at the same time etc, but you have a box (solid state relay would work just fine) that just switches over to the 2nd injector... kill the 1st, power the 2nd. Be the most efficient and would be instantaneous on switchover. That way, if the cal was done for best running on say street driving, tailor the 2nd injectors on race gas to be slightly larger for a bit richer mixture for most power under full boost. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 We are Borg... Prepare to be assimilated! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:38:19 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Prowler V6 > Well--there ARE no results, yet, just a pile of parts. Projected torque is > 925 ft. lbs. from 1500 thru 4000 rpm. Allison promises a lap full of > converter blades if one exceeds 4000. I could live with that :) Torque converter? - how about a flywheel? > It would take a pretty big hood bubble, Fred--it measures about 41" from > bottom of pan to top of air cleaner and air compressor. (and a fuzz more Damn, that's a tall engine. Well, maybe I could mount it in the bed, and use the TM425 Eldorado transaxle? > stouter front springs and tires--it goes about 1250 pounds, dressed. The > bare block is a bit over 400 lbs. And stouter A-Arms, and stouter cross members, and stouter... - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:09:05 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Barry Tisdale wrote: > I wanted sort of an automatic system, but it doesn't look as if its 'instantly' do-able. Dual injectors would be ideal, of course. > > Thanks for your comments - lots of food for thought......... > > Barry No reason it can't be automatic. If you're using an independent switching circuit, maybe you could make it so it watches for rapidly increasing boost and WOT, indicating the potential need for race fuel. Then switch feed systems before they're needed, wait, switch return systems. I would experiment and see how long it takes to purge the rail. I'm thinking now about PWM controlled pumps, Solenoid operated regulator bypass lines, and fuel rail pressure sensors. Increase pump volume, open regulator bypass line, monitor rail pressure. Dunno, maybe a control nightmare there. Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:48:22 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... If this is being done to run high octane under boost conditions, why not use water injection? Gary Derian > >but @xxx. Just picked 1 > >psi as arbitrary switchover point (controlled by pressure switch, not > >manual). >If there's enough 'lead time', manually switching over would work > >fine, w/ the purge valve delays, etc. >I wanted sort of an automatic > >system, but it doesn't look as if its 'instantly' do-able. Dual injectors > >>would be ideal, of course. > > How about you have 2 totally seperate systems, not interconnected. Both > fuel pumps run at the same time etc, but you have a box (solid state relay > would work just fine) that just switches over to the 2nd injector... kill > the 1st, power the 2nd. Be the most efficient and would be instantaneous > on switchover. That way, if the cal was done for best running on say > street driving, tailor the 2nd injectors on race gas to be slightly larger > for a bit richer mixture for most power under full boost. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:14:15 -0600 From: "M. Jones" Subject: RE: Combustion Pressure Sensor - revisited Just read on AVweb, an aviation oriented on-line magazine (www.avweb.com -- subscription required, but free) where GAMI (General Aviation Modifications, Inc.) has developed a system which allows them to monitor instantaneous combustion chamber pressure. They drill a small hole in a spark plug and fit a "proprietary sensor" to accomplish this. Beyond that description, they apparently ain't tellin. The graphs presented in the article are pretty interesting. All of this is extremely interesting to us aviation types, 'cause aviation recips are operated with FIXED timing, optimized for ONE condition -- full throttle, a set RPM, and rich mixture. Anyway, for the article, go to www.avweb.com, chooses Columns and select 'That Misunderstood Mixture' At some point, you'll be asked to subscribe (free). The article (the last third or so, anyway) actually is a pretty interesting discussion of mixture and timing consequences, and includes a couple of combustion event graphs. Mike Jones Tom Butler wrote: This thought has occurred to me as well. A possible problems with this approach might be drive line shocks propagating back to the crank shaft. Perhaps the transients occur on a different time scale? I'm sure an algorithm could be cooked up to extract the required information, provided the "noise" can be eliminated. TomB > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Sharpe [SMTP:twsharpe@xxx.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 12:45 AM > To: diy_efi@xxx.edu > Subject: Re: Combustion Pressure Sensor - revisited > > Can measuring crankshaft acceleration per degree dewtermine the sweet spot > and how close you are to it??? TomS > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:25:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Squash Subject: Re: Prowler V6 - --- David Cooley wrote: > At 07:58 AM 6/16/99 -0600, you wrote: > >>> I am planning to adapt one swiped from the front > of a DT-466 to the nose of > >>> the crank on my 621 cube multi-turbo motor. DT-466 sounds like and International to me... > So what is it? > GM, MACK, Detroit Diesel? Squash _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:40:57 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... > No reason it can't be automatic. If you're using an independent > switching circuit, maybe you could make it so it watches for rapidly A few CMOS quad NAND gates, a 324 quad op-amps, a bag of resistors & capacitors, and eight mosfets from Radio Shack. One of the quad op-amp follows the MAP signal which feeds another op-amp, which the threshold is adjusted by a 5 or 10 turn variable resistor. Once the threshold is reached, it trips on input on a NAND gate which the other lead is buffered, but connected to the injector of the circuit's cylinder. This way, the second injector only fires at certain levels of boost, and when the sister injector fires. Logical And. Works well. The NAND gate then drives the MOSFET which drives the additional injector, as long as its not a peak and hold type injector, but a cheesy "normal" injector. We did this with three stages... Haltach managed, stage I, stage II, and set two trigger points. Worked fairly well. Though just before the next stage kicks in, the engine ran a little lean, and the ECM seemed confused at times because its completely unaware of the additional injectors. For the Dodge engine, I'd like to use a "7th injector" or "cold start injector" type of lead to control a batch of injectors that will enable the a/f ratio to be useful. - -- Frederic Breitwieser Bridgeport CT 06606 1993 Supercharged Lincoln Continental 1989 HWMMV w/turbocharged 500cid Caddy 1975 Dodge D200 Club Cab soon to have 431 stroker + turbos 2000 (I hope) Buick GTP (Mid-Engined Sports Car) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:07:00 +0200 From: Carsten Meyer Subject: Re: 730/727 ecu file >I have been tinkering with the promedit program and have come up >with an ecu file for the 730 and 727 computers. It can be located in >incoming under the name of 730_727.ecu and has a required txt file >in the same name. The text file has to do with any problems with >the ecu file that can not be addressed for promedit. Give it a try >and let me know what you think. >Chet Wagner Chet, thanks a lot for uploading your 730 ECU file. Since my '91 Z28 needs a little silicon tuning due to newly installed headers and stuff (see http://pweb.de.uu.net/pr-meyer.h/ and test my 7730 ALDL monitor prg), I began to assemble my own ECU because no one was to be found on the net before. Been not very successfully yet, it lacks some essential data like fan on/off temps and so. Eventually, I made it to disable the dreaded speed limiter. Thanks again for your work. BTW: conversion factor for idle rev values is 12.5, not 25. Do you know which variable has to be altered if wrong-sized injectors are used? I had to dump the defective Lucas OEM parts and install cheap aftermarket injectors which are a little too big (21 lbs vs. 19 lbs). That unfortunately affects mileage (a _real_ issue in Germany). And I don't want to fiddle with all the tables. Mit freundlichen Gruessen Carsten Meyer, Redaktion c't - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Carsten R. Meyer, editorial staff Tel: +49 (0)511 53 52-300 c't magazin fuer computertechnik Fax: +49 (0)511 53 52-417 Verlag Heinz Heise GmbH & Co KG EMail: cm@xxx.de Helstorfer Str. 7 private EMail: stinkbovist@xxx.net 30625 Hannover Germany http://www.heise.de/ct/Redaktion/cm/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------ Dieser Satz kein Verb. /"\ \ / X ASCII Ribbon Campaign -- Against HTML Mail / \ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:10:00 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Looking for a webpage about Buick GNXs Here's a start: http://www.delanet.com/~tgp/gn/87gn.html http://www.delanet.com/~tgp/gn/87gnetpg.html OR http://www.gnttype.org/ has ALL kinda links to all kinda GN/turbo buick type stuff.... Hope it helps, I found and am finding these links and associated sites VERY INTERESTING and that they are also packed with VERY DETAILED info about all aspects of turbocharging in general... Take er easy(read 'Under 20 lbs. boost!') LATER! Todd.... ARoss10661@xxx.com wrote: > > Ive lost the URL for a really cool Buick webpage that featured a huge > technical section with dozens of how-tos about GMs including extra injectors > and lots of other info > > Anyone know it?? > > Al ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:24:38 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Buick V-6, was Prowler V6 I'm not sure that everything you mentioned is correct Clare... I'm pretty sure Runners came with 440's with both 4 barrels and 6-pacs Runner's came with Hemi's as well.... I've put the 906's off my ol 383(which I gave to my buddy for lettin me use his garage to build the engine) onto my current 440... They haven't burnt a valve yet, I don't think.... Did a compression test within the last 6 months or so, 205 on all cylinders except one of em, which read 150 lbs.! Go figure... I put oil in the spark plug hole to see if the reading would go up, but it remained the same.... I'm thinkin that one of the rods were resized a bit TOO much and is placin it's piston down the hole jsut a bit further than the rest of the pistons.... Swapped another buddy my set of closed chambered 915's for a set of hardened seat 452's.... Found 6 and 8-71 blowers for $100 each! (Rebuildable!) Rebuild kit's only $75, All the money to get a blower usable on a car engine goes into all the adapters, plates, and pulleys n such... The front plate, pulleys, bottom intake, and carb adapters all total about $1,000 So I can have a good rebuilt blower with intake manifold and carb plate for about $1,200 total! All I'd need are the carbs and linkage... And oh ya, maybe an ENGINE to put it on, my 440 may have a tad bit too much compression for 10-15 lbs. of overheated boost from a 6071 huffer... The injection should help a bit, if/when I get the injection parts ligned up... Should put out about 800 hp at teh flywheel... So won't have to use too big of injectors... Any advice, please post! Later.... Todd....!! Clare Snyder wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Todd....!! > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 5:31 PM > Subject: Re: Buick V-6, was Prowler V6 > > > I hear ya mang! > > > > I already have more than my bogus 295/50's can handle, may have to mini > > tub soon! > > > > Or at least move the leafs in for tire clearance.... > > > > Don't wanna HAVE to fully tub it, it IS a Superbee ya know... Some > > people would see that as sacriledge or somethin, even if it WAS only a > > 383 auto originally... > Yes, a 383 - but did you know the SuperBee 383 had the 440 heads? ( and the > RT came only with the 440) The RoadRunner was the 383 Magnum -not the same > as the SuperBee - and the GTX was the 440 > > > > Am definitely runnin air-air intercooler(s)... > > > > Will have plenty of fuel for 1,000+ hp.... > > > > Thanks for the info and advice! > > > > LATER! > > > > Todd....!! > > > > ---------- > > > > ECMnut@xxx.com wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 6/14/99 9:28:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > atc347@xxx.net > > > writes: > > > > > > > I was told that even if I ran TWIN t-1's that they wouldn't be enough > > > > for the 440! > > > > > > Twin T1's ... now were talkin phone lines?. Is this a virtual 440? > > > Just kidding. You're looking at a turbo that can feed 220 cubes > > > (if two are used) to 5500 rpm? That should be easy. The Buicks > > > were 231 cubes. You could prolly find OEM Buick turbos > > > on the cheap or ?.. As F.B. stated before, high RPM is not > > > a prerequisite for big power with a decently matched turbo setup. > > > Make sure you have the fuel delivery requirements covered, > > > and decent intercooling after the comprressors. You'll have more > > > power than two street tires can hook to the ground fer sure. > > > Mike V > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:11:51 -0400 From: Barry Tisdale Subject: Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... At 09:58 AM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote: >I don't really see the heatsoak probem if the passages are open between the two rails the not in use passage would vent to the return on the rail in use, or am I missing something Hummmm.... sounds reasonable to me. Vapor & small amount of fuel would be returned to the active fuel rail? Probably so. >if you allow a small amount of mixing ( the volume of a single rail, < 1L ) it becomes easy Actual rail volume is right around 120ml in my setup. Thanks - Barry >Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 12:08:30 -0400 From: Barry Tisdale Subject: Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... I was trying to stay away from a second injector per intake, for purely mechanical reasons. Would have to fab up a complete intake manifold, as there's just *no* place to put a 2nd injector in the present manifold. This is a PFI system, not TBI, and I'd like to stay there. Thanks - Barry At 10:10 AM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote: >How about you have 2 totally seperate systems, not interconnected. Both >fuel pumps run at the same time etc, but you have a box (solid state relay >would work just fine) that just switches over to the 2nd injector... kill >the 1st, power the 2nd. Be the most efficient and would be instantaneous >on switchover. That way, if the cal was done for best running on say >street driving, tailor the 2nd injectors on race gas to be slightly larger >for a bit richer mixture for most power under full boost. >=========================================================== >David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net >Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 >We are Borg... Prepare to be assimilated! >=========================================================== > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:01:26 -0400 From: "Knowlden and/or Eller" Subject: RE: Locating maps in an ECU So, Shannon where to we get this software? Bob Knowlden - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Shannen Durphey Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 11:24 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Locating maps in an ECU Charles Brooks wrote: > > I was looking over some of the stuff on the site and I've got an idea. If I simply plot EVERYTHING in the ECU I should be able to see all of the 2D/3D maps right? They should look like ramps or some sort of regular waveform. I'm not sure if that's right or not but I'll go ahead and try it and let you guys know what I get. Yesterday I was unable to find a serial cable long enough to get to the Data I/O PROM reader we have here at work, but I have one now :) I'll dump the PROM at lunch and import the data to Excel and see what I can see. FYI, there's an expensive piece of "tuning" software that does little more than what you're thinking. It's actually a 2d plot of everything done in DOS. Tables usually look like sawtooth patterns. Something that's helpful is the ability to load and compare two proms , both with overlapping graphic plots and with a list of differing bytes and their values. Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:13:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Ford Subject: Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Previously, you (Barry Tisdale) wrote: > At 09:58 AM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote: > > >I don't really see the heatsoak probem if the passages are open between the two rails the not in use passage would vent to the return on the rail in use, or am I missing something > > Hummmm.... sounds reasonable to me. Vapor & small amount of fuel would be returned to the active fuel rail? Probably so. ok I thought that you might have put a check valve between the two rails, that why I wanted to clarify > > >if you allow a small amount of mixing ( the volume of a single rail, < 1L ) it becomes easy > > Actual rail volume is right around 120ml in my setup. so mixing that volume would not be a major concern, how large are the fuel tanks 10 L ( ~3 gallons) if so the mixing would be a tiny influence, even if you just put a dual throw valve on either end of the rail. Or was your idea to mix the 2 fuels? > > Thanks - Barry > > >Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com > >QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com > >(613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews > >(613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 > > > > - -- Pat Ford email: pford@xxx.com QNX Software Systems, Ltd. WWW: http://www.qnx.com (613) 591-0931 (voice) mail: 175 Terrence Matthews (613) 591-3579 (fax) Kanata, Ontario, Canada K2M 1W8 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:17:30 -0500 From: Stephen Cranford Subject: Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Barry Tisdale wrote: > This is a PFI system, not TBI, and I'd like to stay there. > > Thanks - Barry Hmmm....That statement made me think of a dual fuel system for my TBI Camaro with a PFI setup on the stock manifold. TBI for economy and PFI for power? Just a random thought.... - -- Stephen Cranford http://cranford.home.texas.net 92 RS Sapphire Blue w/Purple Pearl & White Stripes 86 IROC-Z28 Red w/black hood 89 GMC 4WD 1/2 ton Suburban "I don't suffer from insanity...I enjoy every minute of it!"--bumper sticker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:55:47 -0400 From: "Clare Snyder" Subject: Re: Buick V-6, was Prowler V6 - ----- Original Message ----- From: Todd....!! To: Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Buick V-6, was Prowler V6 > I'm not sure that everything you mentioned is correct Clare... > > I'm pretty sure Runners came with 440's with both 4 barrels and 6-pacs > Runner's came with Hemi's as well.... > STOCK engine was 383 - 440 and Hemi were options, sorry. I was talking BASE engine. > I've put the 906's off my ol 383(which I gave to my buddy for lettin me > use his garage to build the engine) onto my current 440... They haven't > burnt a valve yet, I don't think.... Did a compression test within the > last 6 months or so, 205 on all cylinders except one of em, which read > 150 lbs.! Go figure... > > I put oil in the spark plug hole to see if the reading would go up, but > it remained the same.... > > I'm thinkin that one of the rods were resized a bit TOO much and is > placin it's piston down the hole jsut a bit further than the rest of the > pistons.... > > Swapped another buddy my set of closed chambered 915's for a set of > hardened seat 452's.... > > Found 6 and 8-71 blowers for $100 each! (Rebuildable!) > > Rebuild kit's only $75, > > All the money to get a blower usable on a car engine goes into all the > adapters, plates, and pulleys n such... > The front plate, pulleys, bottom intake, and carb adapters all total > about $1,000 > > So I can have a good rebuilt blower with intake manifold and carb plate > for about $1,200 total! > > All I'd need are the carbs and linkage... > > And oh ya, maybe an ENGINE to put it on, my 440 may have a tad bit too > much compression for 10-15 lbs. of overheated boost from a 6071 > huffer... > > The injection should help a bit, if/when I get the injection parts > ligned up... > > Should put out about 800 hp at teh flywheel... > > So won't have to use too big of injectors... > > Any advice, please post! > > Later.... > > Todd....!! > > > > > > Clare Snyder wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Todd....!! > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 5:31 PM > > Subject: Re: Buick V-6, was Prowler V6 > > > > > I hear ya mang! > > > > > > I already have more than my bogus 295/50's can handle, may have to mini > > > tub soon! > > > > > > Or at least move the leafs in for tire clearance.... > > > > > > Don't wanna HAVE to fully tub it, it IS a Superbee ya know... Some > > > people would see that as sacriledge or somethin, even if it WAS only a > > > 383 auto originally... > > Yes, a 383 - but did you know the SuperBee 383 had the 440 heads? ( and the > > RT came only with the 440) The RoadRunner was the 383 Magnum -not the same > > as the SuperBee - and the GTX was the 440 > > > > > > Am definitely runnin air-air intercooler(s)... > > > > > > Will have plenty of fuel for 1,000+ hp.... > > > > > > Thanks for the info and advice! > > > > > > LATER! > > > > > > Todd....!! > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > ECMnut@xxx.com wrote: > > > > > > > > In a message dated 6/14/99 9:28:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > atc347@xxx.net > > > > writes: > > > > > > > > > I was told that even if I ran TWIN t-1's that they wouldn't be enough > > > > > for the 440! > > > > > > > > Twin T1's ... now were talkin phone lines?. Is this a virtual 440? > > > > Just kidding. You're looking at a turbo that can feed 220 cubes > > > > (if two are used) to 5500 rpm? That should be easy. The Buicks > > > > were 231 cubes. You could prolly find OEM Buick turbos > > > > on the cheap or ?.. As F.B. stated before, high RPM is not > > > > a prerequisite for big power with a decently matched turbo setup. > > > > Make sure you have the fuel delivery requirements covered, > > > > and decent intercooling after the comprressors. You'll have more > > > > power than two street tires can hook to the ground fer sure. > > > > Mike V > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 15:59:30 -0600 From: "Kevin Yachimec" Subject: Re: Dual fuel PFI rails.... Correct me if I'm wrong but don't top fuel nitromethane powered motors (funny cars) start on alcohol (methanol) then before they enter the water box they which over to the nitromethane. I'm not sure what type of valve they use to which over but I believe they share the same set of injectors. I realize that they don't which back to the alcohol until the motor is started again but maybe some of the system design could be used for a street system. I think the choice of fuels would dictate the lay out of the system. If you were just using pump gas and some high octane race fuel then alittle mixing of the two fuels shouldn't matter and injector sizing shouldn't be a problem. If pump gas and alcohol is used then the system would have to have two sets of injectors or different two fuel regulators. Alcohol would have to be injected in to the motor at double the rate roughly, and doubling the prssure doesn't double the amount flow. If the injectors were sized for the alcohol then I dubt that you could shorten the injector pulsewidth enough to have a stable idle. These are just some of the problems that such a system would have. Regards... Kevin Yachimec Cybertech Automation Inc. Edmonton Alberta Canada keviny@xxx.ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 16:13:25 -0600 From: cwagner@xxx.net Subject: Re: 730/727 ecu file I discovered that the 25 for the rpm factors was too big after I posted it. I have already changed the errors that I could find and will have a revised ecu file posted in the very near future. Until then, keep finding the bugs that I didn't see in the first place. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:54:46 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using the same injection system off of your BIG engine(s)? Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:51:52 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" To: Frederic Breitwieser References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 Cool Deal Fred!, Will do... The Blower itself, right off the diesel truck or wherever they come from(Will find out exactly where these come from) are $100. Rebuild kits are $75. All the associated hardware to make the blower usable on a car engine is $1,000 even, and is sold from somewhere in Cali, I believe!... So NO TAX! The $1,000 buys: 1.- The carb plate that bolts onto the 'top' of the blower(In your 'case' the SIDE of the blower, but you may not need a carb plate since you won't be runnin carbs, RIGHT? 2.- The intake manifold to bolt the blower to the engine, you may not need this either since you doin a funky setup... right? 3.- Pulleys(1 for crank, 1 for blower. 4.- Front plate for pulley setup on blower. Will get a break down of these parts as well... The $1,000 is for the whole shabang... Sounds like you may only need the front plat efor the pulleys and maybe the pulleys? That should cover ya!! Will get ya the name tonight or tommor! I can see it now.... Todd's Blower Service - You name it we'll blow it.... That sounds a bit faggish, must work on the motto... Buddy that told me about the blowers, who has the Sublime 70 Bee, said he's gonna finish buildin his 69 440, make it 8.5:1, use the eagle rods, and stuff the blown 440 (.020 over) in his 74 Charger/Satelite mobile, maybe either chop the top a few inches or just hack it off and roll the metal and make er a convert, THAT would be cool! HE already has one of the rebuildable 6-71's will check it out and let ya know how it looks... Fred, would you be plannin on gettin a good ol belly button 6-71 or go all out and run the 8-71? Not sure of the 8-71's are the even $100 as the 6-71's are, buddy said the 8-71's are REALLY HUGE!! About as big as a s.b. chev! Lemme know, would like to know your plans!! LATER! Todd....!! http://www.c-com.net/~atc347/toddlnk.htm Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > Am learnin a lot from your posts, funny as well! > > Naaah, I'm a beginner compared to some of these guys, and I'm a > sarcastic prick on top of that :) > > > Never heard of a TH425 til you posted it a while back, probably > > mentioning about what ya used in one of your rides... > > I was going to use it, decided not to since it was automatic and weighed > nine thousand pounds just for the shifter > > > Ever heard of a TH375? > > Yes, smaller version. I think the 425 is based on the Turbo 400,a dn > the 375 is based on the Turbo 350, but I could be wrong. There was some > kind of analogy like that. > > > The Blowers are for sale, as many as we want, at $100 a pop(Guaranteed > > rebuildable)... Will post the Name, Add., and Serial number of the place > > that sells em, or will make em a web site of their very own with a > > Merchant acct and everything... I AM an Internet Consultant ya know... > > Oh, are ya? Kewl. Did oyu check out my little flip down folders? I > created that structure as a consultant when I was doing something for > paradigm design, all in notepad if you can believe. Now, I can't even > spell HTML its been so long. Suffering with access for a client. Can't > wait until I can do NT and infrastructure again. > > > Have 6 full blown Merchant Account Sites that I can set 6, or more, > > companies up on IMMEDIATELY... > > Way kewl :) > > > The rebuild kit is $75 > > Count me in for one. Should I call the company directly? I really > would like a blower to play with. I intend to mount it upside down if I > can figure out the oiling next to the plenum, then blow through the side > through an intercooler. Works for me :) > > > The name is MANCINI!! > > Mancini racing? Kewl. > > > My question to you, FRED, is WHY did ya mention that: > > a "Blower is better than a turbo, and less effort.."? > > You're right. Its less efficient, though more so in the upper RPMs > (over 4.5K). Since I'm below that, I have about the same efficiency > (2-3 % less) as an equally designed turbocharged system, and I get the > power immediately off idle, whereas with a turbo, I have spool up > delays. Also, I will have an intercooler. I figured that one out > already. We did this once before. > > Well, I touched up on it above. Here goes: > > Intake manifold modified for EFI. > Throttle body atop of carb plate, with right angle metal elbow. > blower attached to right angle, sitting on its side, above the exhaust > headers. I have room for a sideways blower under my hood, the dodge B > block sits low in the truck, based on the measurements I've taken so > far. Tight, but it should fit. > On top of the blower (which is now the side), attach aluminum housing > with a K&N filter. > > Now, the intercooling part. Inside the elbow, put two small oil or > tranny coolers, and run ice water through them that cools off with a > radiator in front of the engine's radiator. Water to air intercooling, > should be okay. > > This works, we did this one before, just that the oiling of the blower > wasn't very good. My friend things he has a solution to this. Anyway, > for $175 including the rebuild kit, well, I'm going to take a chance. > Just have to fangle up the pulleys, belts, etc. As cheaply as possible > of course :) > > The joy of having an alternator and a PS pump - plenty of accessory > space :) ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #362 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".