DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, June 20 1999 Volume 04 : Number 366 In this issue: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? RE: "Sweet Spot" Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using the same Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? RE: "Sweet Spot" Dodge D200 Swap (yet again) Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using the same Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using thesame injection system off of your BIG engine(s)? Re: Buick V-6, was Prowler V6 Re: computer chip Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, RE: "Sweet Spot" Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using thesame injection... RE: "Sweet Spot" Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? Re: Dodge D200 Swap (yet again) Re: Dodge D200 Swap (yet again) Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using the same Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using the same injection system off of your BIG engine(s)? Re: Buick V-6, was Prowler V6 Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 14:55:53 +0200 From: wenning.motorsport@xxx.de (Alexander Wenning) Subject: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? Recently Iīve seen that Boschīs latest rolling road reads the engine rpm from the battery voltage. When connecting my multimeter to the battery I can read different frequencies at different rpmīs caused by the alternator. This seems to be easy but when connecting my 20 MHz-oscilloscope to the battery I can only see a flat line around 14.0 volts. Does anybody know how I can read the rpm from the battery using a microcontroller like PIC or Basic Stamp II? Kind regards Alex Wenning - ------------------------ e-mail: mail@xxx.de website: www.wenning.de - ------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:23:19 -0500 From: Steve Gorkowski Subject: Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? I don't recommend this . At work we done this on engine gen. sets and regretted it the day i started using the charger voltage . It may be done easy on cars but i had nothing but problems Gen. sets . Problems found: 1)Place a heavy load on Alt. the ac voltage part of the wave dives. 2) Some of the regulators use a SCR and chop the ac signal to regulate. 3) Aftermarket regulators are built different and cause problems. Good luck Steve Alexander Wenning wrote: > Recently Iīve seen that Boschīs latest rolling road reads the engine rpm from > the battery voltage. When connecting my multimeter to the battery I can read > different frequencies at different rpmīs caused by the alternator. This seems to > be easy but when connecting my 20 MHz-oscilloscope to the battery I can only see > a flat line around 14.0 volts. > > Does anybody know how I can read the rpm from the battery using a > microcontroller like PIC or Basic Stamp II? > > Kind regards > > Alex Wenning > > ------------------------ > e-mail: mail@xxx.de > > website: www.wenning.de > ------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:22:29 -0400 From: "Peter D. Hipson" Subject: Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? Yes it is possible. With the scope, you may need to use an isolating cap. Several tachs do this, especially those for diesel engines, which are a pita. Some alternators (GM?) have an A/C output terminal just for this purpose. At 02:55 PM 6/19/99 +0200, you wrote: >Recently Iīve seen that Boschīs latest rolling road reads the engine rpm from >the battery voltage. When connecting my multimeter to the battery I can read >different frequencies at different rpmīs caused by the alternator. This seems to >be easy but when connecting my 20 MHz-oscilloscope to the battery I can only see >a flat line around 14.0 volts. > >Does anybody know how I can read the rpm from the battery using a >microcontroller like PIC or Basic Stamp II? > >Kind regards > >Alex Wenning > >------------------------ >e-mail: mail@xxx.de > >website: www.wenning.de >------------------------ > > > Thanks, Peter Hipson (founder, NEHOG) 1995 White NA Hummer Wagon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 15:20:40 GMT From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Subject: RE: "Sweet Spot" Force applied is a function of ( (area x pressure ) x lever arm ) Picture a 1000 cc cylinder with a 100 cc chamber. At top dead center this is a 10 to 1 ratio. Moving the piston downwards a small amount will increase the volume of the chamber from 100 cc to 200 cc - effectively halving the pressure. If the pressure was 1000 psi at TDC - it is now 500 psi - with no other changes. Moving the piston down another 100 cc increases the volume to 300 cc or 1/3 what it was at TDC and a corresponding decrease in pressure. The reason for the sweet spot being so near TDC is quite simply the result of the pressure falling far more rapidly ( result of volume increasing and work extraction ) than the lever arm is increasing. Increasing the dwell time near the sweet spot results in disportionate increases in power again because of the pressure area lever arm relationship. Longer rods do this nicely. Piston pin / offset bores increase power by effectively lengthening the lever arm near TDC with minimal change toward BDC - thus increasing the power. Any emphasis any - pressure applied before piston top dead center - ( but not necessarily crankshaft - think pin/bore offset ) is negative work - work applied to OPPOSE the rotation motion of the engine. With the pressure area lever arm combination working to extract the greatest energy near TDC it does not take much to see how a few extra degrees of advance can send the power into the toilet - not to mention detonation etc. Raising the speed of combustion - "fast burn" not only reduces the amount of negative work produced, but also delivers more pressure earlier in the cycle - closer to the sweet spot, and thusly increasing power. With regard to the "broad" insensitivity to MBT / MBP advance, we need only visit data about combustion pressure. Tests reveal that even with excellent mixture control, other environmental controls, exacting spark etc, there will be minor variances from cycle to cycle of pressure and when peak pressure occurs. This establishes sort of a small band where the peak pressure occurs. Small changes to advance simply move the center of the band. Larger changes are easier to determine than small. Knowing this, getting the fuel and ignition and EXHAUST consistent narrow this band of pressure variances and allow more bettor control of peak pressure occupance and thus more effective power. Fuel that is consumed after the "sweet spot" is passed continue to increase the pressure over motored pressure, but the increase is less effective at translating into crankshaft power / torque than if it had been consumed earlier. >Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:38:50 -0700 >From: Eric Aos >Subject: RE: "Sweet Spot" > >> If you set up a series of tests such that the only thing that >> varied was the >> spark advance, and you moved it such that the pressure peak >> varied from 10 to >> 20 degrees atdc > >Just imagine for a moment though if you could change that to 73 degrees >(for a 350 Chevy 3.48 stroke, and 5.7 rod) this is where leverage is >maximum (90 deg between rod, and crank throw). For a 228% increase in >leverage... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 12:01:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using the same > > > Todd's Blower Service - You name it we'll blow it.... you can't use this slogan It's already taken for Frederick's Dyno Service Clive ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 14:28:39 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? At 02:55 PM 6/19/99 +0200, you wrote: >Recently Iīve seen that Boschīs latest rolling road reads the engine rpm from >the battery voltage. When connecting my multimeter to the battery I can read >different frequencies at different rpmīs caused by the alternator. This >seems to >be easy but when connecting my 20 MHz-oscilloscope to the battery I can only >see >a flat line around 14.0 volts. Use AC coupling, connect it at the alternator output. The battery is a HUGE filter. Probably have to have sensitivity at 1mv/div or more =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 12:46:28 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: RE: "Sweet Spot" >Force applied is a function of ( (area x pressure ) x lever arm ) > >Picture a 1000 cc cylinder with a 100 cc chamber. At top dead center this is >a 10 to 1 ratio. > >Moving the piston downwards a small amount will increase the volume of the >chamber from 100 cc to 200 cc - effectively halving the pressure. If the >pressure was 1000 psi at TDC - it is now 500 psi - with no other changes. Right though, inaccurate thermodynamics. The gas loses temperature as it expands, as well as losing pressure, so the drop in pressure is considerably more precipitous than what you describe, Bob! ( V1 / V2 ) exp. (1.4) = ( P2 / P1) (This equation assumes adiabatic expansion, which means no heat loss to the piston crown or bore or chamber surfaces--which we all know just ain't so, so the numbers from this equation are STILL giving too high a pressure! (And the exponent given is for air, not exhaust gasses, and assumes that their behavior is perfectly linear, which it isn't, but at least it gives one a FAR better picture of what is going on!) So: for double the volume, if the pressure started out at 1600 psia at TDC (which is a much more realistic number for an NA engine than 1000 psia is)--the pressure after a 2 : 1 volume expansion would be only 606 psia. (Under IDEAL conditions, no heat loss to the water jackets, still lower in the real world!) > >Moving the piston down another 100 cc increases the volume to 300 cc or 1/3 >what it was at TDC and a corresponding decrease in pressure. And after a 3 :1 volume expansion from 1600 psia, the cylinder pressure would be only 344 psia. Now--add the kinematics of the engine into the picture--the fact that the piston does not move very far at all down the bore during the first 15 or 20 degrees of crank rotation--and it is a bit easier to see why the "sweet spot is so few degrees after TDC. The faster piston motion away from TDC that happens with shorter con rods is a VERY interesting aspect of this situation--and therefore of tuning! Regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:20:58 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Dodge D200 Swap (yet again) Just updated some of my pages... pictures only, didn't add the text yet. Anyway, http://www.xephic.dynip.com/dodge/318swap.htm Yanked out the 318. When you load the page, scroll all the way to the bottom, that's where the new pictures are. The rest of the page is kinda "status quo". Eventually I'll break it up into three pages. Pre-yank, yank, and install. Install occurs tomorrow :) BTW, its imperative you remove the starter when taking out a truck's 318. Even though none of the bolts need to be removed to seperate the engine from the bellhousing, the starter shell was in the way. Chilton's didn't say "remove starter", so I didn't bother. an hour later, after yanking with all my might, I removed the starter, then one good hearty yank resulted in the seperation. I also sat the unloaded "B" block in there, with its own motor mounts, and by coincidence, if I take the existing 318 motor mounts and rotate them 180 degrees, they line up perfectly with the B Block, and the centerline of the crank appears to line up with the centerline of the tranny. Of course the bell housing is different, but I have that. So, to swap in the "B" stroker down the road, should require nothing mechanical - the flywheel is the same, I already verified that, thus ensuring that the only piece I'd need that's different is the bellhousing, which I have sitting on the garage floor. Kewl, eh? Couldn't be any easier. Damn, I like simple. Cheers! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:23:58 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using the same > you can't use this slogan > It's already taken for Frederick's Dyno Service You know, I blow up a few blocks to determine the limits, and I'm tortured for life. Ugh. :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:26:15 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using thesame injection system off of your BIG engine(s)? > I missed the start of this.... so bear with me...... No problem. Basically, Todd somehow found a load of 6-71 blowers for $100 plus a $75 rebuild kit. Cheap I like. However, we weren't sure how to make them work on our vehicles, and we started discussing it. So, now you are up to date. I consolodated about messages into two sentences . > build enough pressure to be useful with gas. If these are a diff. setup I heard something like this, but thats easy enough to find out before investing. And you said $50 CDN? That's about what, 40 bucks US? Plus shipping? kewl. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:36:28 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Buick V-6, was Prowler V6 > Just tryin to find a long nuff throttle cable to reach the dern carb > once I put the thing on the engine! Any ideas? Bike brake cable, or a marine cable. You can get many, many lengths from a boat store. Solved a few problems that way. I did an exhaust cutout that way on my old crew cab Ford (moved the bed back a foot and had the tail pipes going up the back of the cab, like a Semi). Anyway, just before the pipes bent upwards, I had torched in those cast iron "valves" from JC Whitney for 20 a pop... and used marine cable to a small lever, with a large spring, to hold them in the "up to the roof" position. I could pull the lever down, then move it slightly to the right or left to lock it, and the exhaust would now fly out "free" not through the long, narrow, glasspacks that went up the back of the cab. Loud as hell when open, but a 460 will do that :) Anwyay, point of the story is, go to a boat/marine store. I was able to get 15' cables no problem. I'm sure that's long enough for your carb issue LOL. > This 440 may be the one I put the turbo's and F.I. on, soon! 400 block - its a stouter block in a lot of ways, even though the journals are smaller. I do believe the 400 block is the one Chrysler uses to make the crate 528cid Hemi engine... not the 440. The 400 has thicker cyl walls. Not a guarrentee of course. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:38:26 EDT From: ChvyRs92@xxx.com Subject: Re: computer chip Hey guys, You're right the service number on the ECM is 16159278 BAFN. For some reason the 92 vette has an ECM and a CCM and supposedly the VATS code goes through the CCM so it is harder to build a 555 circuit to go around it. From what I have read it is way easier to just get a prom with the VATS removed. Does anyone out there have the expertise to burn me a prom that will work????? and how much $ will it cost me? Thanks for all the help, Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 18:31:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, - -> This is correct GMC blowers with stock rotors have to much clearance. - -> All they will do is build little boost and lots of heat. This is the - -> reason a good blower costs so much, they have precision clearanced - -> after market rotors. I was curious, so I called Blower Drive Service when I bought a 6-71 a few years ago. They said a stock, used blower without internal damage should make 12-15 PSI of boost on a 454-460 sized motor with a 1:1 drive ratio, and that it would take approximately 60hp to turn the blower at that time. Reworked blowers with welded or Teflon-inserted rotors would make more boost. ==dave.williams@xxx.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 19:00:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Subject: RE: "Sweet Spot" - -> Right though, inaccurate thermodynamics. The gas loses temperature as - -> it expands, as well as losing pressure, so the drop in pressure is - -> considerably more precipitous than what you describe, Bob! The lower combustion limit of several of the end-gas reactions is around 700F. Also consider the combustion products contain liberal amounts of water as steam, which is a radically non-ideal gas. The temperature/pressure drop may not be as severe as you indicate. And, of course, various fangles could be conceived to keep the temperature at any desired level. With direct injection it would be easy. ==dave.williams@xxx.us====================================== I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 18:05:14 -0700 From: Bill Edgeworth Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, > > > I was curious, so I called Blower Drive Service when I bought a 6-71 a > few years ago. They said a stock, used blower without internal damage > should make 12-15 PSI of boost on a 454-460 sized motor with a 1:1 drive > ratio, and that it would take approximately 60hp to turn the blower at > that time. Reworked blowers with welded or Teflon-inserted rotors would > make more boost. > I didn't think it would build that much ( I don't know how much heat the stock blower would generate in the air charge) IMHO the 12-15 psi is due to a lot of heat in the air. With the same boost level and a reworked blower you will make more power because the air charge is much cooler. A number I have been told for a reworked blower with the blower turning 6000rpm and generating 15 psi boost is 100 hp. Kind of hard on that poor old crank snout! I have also been told that a screw charger on a modern top fuel engine requires 800 hp at full boost and maximum rpm. I wonder what they do to the crank snout to handle that? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 21:30:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank F Parker Subject: Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? > Recently Iīve seen that Boschīs latest rolling road reads the engine rpm from > the battery voltage. When connecting my multimeter to the battery I can read > different frequencies at different rpmīs caused by the alternator. This seems to > be easy but when connecting my 20 MHz-oscilloscope to the battery I can only see > a flat line around 14.0 volts. > Does anybody know how I can read the rpm from the battery using a > microcontroller like PIC or Basic Stamp II? > Kind regards > Alex Wenning > On a GM altenator, there are 4 pins, one big and 3 small. The 3 small are L for lamp, F for field, and an unlabeled one that we used in a GM race program where rules would not let us use a wheel speed sensor. That pins outputs a frequency proportional to rpm which we used with some engineering math to get vehicle speed. You could take the AC signal and do what ever you needed. regards, frank parker ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:14:44 -0400 From: "Clare Snyder" Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, - ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Edgeworth To: Sent: Saturday, June 19, 1999 9:05 PM Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, > > > > > > I was curious, so I called Blower Drive Service when I bought a 6-71 a > > few years ago. They said a stock, used blower without internal damage > > should make 12-15 PSI of boost on a 454-460 sized motor with a 1:1 drive > > ratio, and that it would take approximately 60hp to turn the blower at > > that time. Reworked blowers with welded or Teflon-inserted rotors would > > make more boost. > > > > I didn't think it would build that much ( I don't know how much heat the > stock blower would generate in the air charge) IMHO the 12-15 psi is due to > a lot of heat in the air. With the same boost level and a reworked blower > you will make more power because the air charge is much cooler. > A number I have been told for a reworked blower with the blower turning > 6000rpm and generating 15 psi boost is 100 hp. Kind of hard on that poor old > crank snout! > I have also been told that a screw charger on a modern top fuel engine > requires 800 hp at full boost and maximum rpm. I wonder what they do to the > crank snout to handle that? > Thats only 700 ft lbs at 6000 rpm. A 1 1/2" low carbon steel bolt standard torque limit is 1100 ft lb. For a grade 8 it is 3200 ft lbs. Handling the 800 hp required for the screw charger is a piece of cake - for 14 seconds or so including burnout anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:41:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? - -> On a GM altenator, there are 4 pins, one big and 3 small. The 3 small - -> are L for lamp, F for field, and an unlabeled one that we used in a - -> GM race program where rules would not let us use a wheel speed - -> sensor. That pins outputs a frequency proportional to rpm which we - -> used with some engineering math to get vehicle speed. Is that the same pin that GM Diesels used for 'tachometer' output? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:08:57 EDT From: ECMnut@xxx.com Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using thesame injection... Guys, snap out of it !! (slap, slap) You're sacring me... You're talkin about mid 50s technology. Roots blowers? If you're going to drive it with a belt, get some type of screwcharger or vortech... (or Eaton?) Mike V psssst..... (turbo) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:17:53 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: RE: "Sweet Spot" >-> Right though, inaccurate thermodynamics. The gas loses temperature as >-> it expands, as well as losing pressure, so the drop in pressure is >-> considerably more precipitous than what you describe, Bob! > > The lower combustion limit of several of the end-gas reactions is >around 700F. Depending on inlet air temp, and effective compression ration, the peak temp at TDC, again assuming no water jacket losses, is in the 6000 degrees R (absolute) neighborhood Didn't give this one before, but: (V 1 / V 2 ) exp. ( 0.4 ) = ( T 2 / T 1 ) ---with the temperatures being in absolute, same as the pressures were. So-- for a 2 : 1 expansion, and if T 1 = 6000R, T 2 = 4547 R = 4087 F and for a 3 : 1 expansion, and if T 1 = 6000R, T 2 = 3866 R = 3406 F. Even if you assume that 500 degrees off of these temperatures is lost to the water jackets, the lowest temperature here would be 2906 F, which is, first, plenty hot enough for the end reactions to continue, and second, still approximately 2200 degrees above the critical temperature of water--and therefore plenty hot enough for an ideal gas approximation to be fairly decent for the steam in the mixture. Another feature of these numbers is that the work given up by the combustion products in expanding will be equal to the change in their heat content: (6000 - 3866) x specific heat of the gasses (about .26 for what you typically have) x (mass) x (778 foot pounds/BTU) Also consider the combustion products contain liberal >amounts of water as steam, which is a radically non-ideal gas. See above--at these temps, it is pretty close. > > The temperature/pressure drop may not be as severe as you indicate. Really, it is quite a bit worse--because of the heat loss to the water jackets. >And, of course, various fangles could be conceived to keep the >temperature at any desired level. As noted above, the temps are plenty high! Regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:27:42 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, >> >> >> I was curious, so I called Blower Drive Service when I bought a 6-71 a >> few years ago. They said a stock, used blower without internal damage >> should make 12-15 PSI of boost on a 454-460 sized motor with a 1:1 drive >> ratio, and that it would take approximately 60hp to turn the blower at >> that time. Reworked blowers with welded or Teflon-inserted rotors would >> make more boost. >> > >I didn't think it would build that much ( I don't know how much heat the >stock blower would generate in the air charge) IMHO the 12-15 psi is due to >a lot of heat in the air. With the same boost level and a reworked blower >you will make more power because the air charge is much cooler. After the discussion on this about a month ago, I talked to a guy who has a 3-71 Jimmy in his crawler backhoe. Has had the motor on a dyno. The 3-71 huffer on it (with no turbo) makes about 7 or 8 psi of boost. Apparently this is about the design boost level for these things on their stock application. >A number I have been told for a reworked blower with the blower turning >6000rpm and generating 15 psi boost is 100 hp. Kind of hard on that poor old >crank snout! Not too far off with the number, assuming a 440 cid engine. >I have also been told that a screw charger on a modern top fuel engine >requires 800 hp at full boost and maximum rpm. I think this is a BIT of an exageration Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:33:53 EDT From: KD6JDJ@xxx.com Subject: Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? >Recently Iīve seen that Boschīs latest rolling road reads the engine rpm from >the battery voltage. When connecting my multimeter to the battery I can read >different frequencies at different rpmīs caused by the alternator. This seems to >be easy but when connecting my 20 MHz-oscilloscope to the battery I can only >see >a flat line around 14.0 volts. Alex I dont know how much work you are willing to do with your alternator. If you are willing to disassemble it, it is simple to attach two leads to 2 of the stator leads within the alternator. That will give you a very reliable ac signal -- always. If you do try to read the AC off the 12 vdc lead, you will get many different kinds of ac component signals, depending mainly on battery charge level. Jerry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:39:28 +0000 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Dodge D200 Swap (yet again) ALRIGHTY THEN! Am checkin out your pages now! And hey, a picture's worth how many words? Thanks for the update! Talk to ya later! Todd....!! - -------------- Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > Just updated some of my pages... pictures only, didn't add the text yet. > > Anyway, > > http://www.xephic.dynip.com/dodge/318swap.htm > > Yanked out the 318. When you load the page, scroll all the way to the > bottom, that's where the new pictures are. The rest of the page is > kinda "status quo". Eventually I'll break it up into three pages. > Pre-yank, yank, and install. > > Install occurs tomorrow :) > > BTW, its imperative you remove the starter when taking out a truck's > 318. Even though none of the bolts need to be removed to seperate the > engine from the bellhousing, the starter shell was in the way. > > Chilton's didn't say "remove starter", so I didn't bother. an hour > later, after yanking with all my might, I removed the starter, then one > good hearty yank resulted in the seperation. > > I also sat the unloaded "B" block in there, with its own motor mounts, > and by coincidence, if I take the existing 318 motor mounts and rotate > them 180 degrees, they line up perfectly with the B Block, and the > centerline of the crank appears to line up with the centerline of the > tranny. Of course the bell housing is different, but I have that. So, > to swap in the "B" stroker down the road, should require nothing > mechanical - the flywheel is the same, I already verified that, thus > ensuring that the only piece I'd need that's different is the > bellhousing, which I have sitting on the garage floor. > > Kewl, eh? Couldn't be any easier. Damn, I like simple. > > Cheers! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:43:34 +0000 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Dodge D200 Swap (yet again) Hey Fred, Why did ya pull the 318? Did it go bad? Can't remember... What's goin back into the truck? Will it not get the B treatment? Just a wonderinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn............... Do you have a digital camera? or are ya usin REAL FILM to take your pics? OR a video with a video card to scan the pics in directly from the vid? Again, justawonderin.... Later... Todd.... - --------------------------------- Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > Just updated some of my pages... pictures only, didn't add the text yet. > > Anyway, > > http://www.xephic.dynip.com/dodge/318swap.htm > > Yanked out the 318. When you load the page, scroll all the way to the > bottom, that's where the new pictures are. The rest of the page is > kinda "status quo". Eventually I'll break it up into three pages. > Pre-yank, yank, and install. > > Install occurs tomorrow :) > > BTW, its imperative you remove the starter when taking out a truck's > 318. Even though none of the bolts need to be removed to seperate the > engine from the bellhousing, the starter shell was in the way. > > Chilton's didn't say "remove starter", so I didn't bother. an hour > later, after yanking with all my might, I removed the starter, then one > good hearty yank resulted in the seperation. > > I also sat the unloaded "B" block in there, with its own motor mounts, > and by coincidence, if I take the existing 318 motor mounts and rotate > them 180 degrees, they line up perfectly with the B Block, and the > centerline of the crank appears to line up with the centerline of the > tranny. Of course the bell housing is different, but I have that. So, > to swap in the "B" stroker down the road, should require nothing > mechanical - the flywheel is the same, I already verified that, thus > ensuring that the only piece I'd need that's different is the > bellhousing, which I have sitting on the garage floor. > > Kewl, eh? Couldn't be any easier. Damn, I like simple. > > Cheers! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:45:22 +0000 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using the same HAHA, I know how ya feel... A Friend and I ran a car into a smooth ditch, no damage to the car, back in high school... Gramp's STILL gripes about it!! Whata load.... Later! Todd....!! Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > you can't use this slogan > > It's already taken for Frederick's Dyno Service > > You know, I blow up a few blocks to determine the limits, and I'm > tortured for life. > > Ugh. > > :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:53:10 +0000 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Hey Dave, Thanks for the info, very interesting... However, ALL the Diesel trucks(18-wheelers, mack trucks, etc...) are ALL using regular old Blowers in their Billion Mile vehicles, with no problems, and they'vebeen doin it for YEARS.... Just how long HAVE Roots type blowers been around anyhow?... Point being is that if ALL of the 18-wheelers believe that the way their blowers are set up(Without the teflon seals on the tips of the lobes, etc.) are good enough for millions upon billions of miles, WHY would you wanna mess with that? In other words, just how much more efficient would seals make a regular old 6-71 huffer? Just wonderin.... I'm thinkin that the seals or the like would make the blower as much more efficient as TOTAL SEAL rings make an engine.... Whatcha tink? LATER.... Todd.... Dave Williams wrote: > > -> This is correct GMC blowers with stock rotors have to much clearance. > -> All they will do is build little boost and lots of heat. This is the > -> reason a good blower costs so much, they have precision clearanced > -> after market rotors. > > I was curious, so I called Blower Drive Service when I bought a 6-71 a > few years ago. They said a stock, used blower without internal damage > should make 12-15 PSI of boost on a 454-460 sized motor with a 1:1 drive > ratio, and that it would take approximately 60hp to turn the blower at > that time. Reworked blowers with welded or Teflon-inserted rotors would > make more boost. > > ==dave.williams@xxx.us====================================== > I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you? > my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM | who, who? > =================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 22:57:06 +0000 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Hpwdy Bill, Just wanted to mention that if you pumped 15 lbs. of boost into say, a 440, you will DEFINITELY be pushin WAY more than 100 hp, more like 400+ additional....depending on the type of fuel being used.... Later.... Todd... - ---------------------------- Bill Edgeworth wrote: > > > > > > > I was curious, so I called Blower Drive Service when I bought a 6-71 a > > few years ago. They said a stock, used blower without internal damage > > should make 12-15 PSI of boost on a 454-460 sized motor with a 1:1 drive > > ratio, and that it would take approximately 60hp to turn the blower at > > that time. Reworked blowers with welded or Teflon-inserted rotors would > > make more boost. > > > > I didn't think it would build that much ( I don't know how much heat the > stock blower would generate in the air charge) IMHO the 12-15 psi is due to > a lot of heat in the air. With the same boost level and a reworked blower > you will make more power because the air charge is much cooler. > A number I have been told for a reworked blower with the blower turning > 6000rpm and generating 15 psi boost is 100 hp. Kind of hard on that poor old > crank snout! > I have also been told that a screw charger on a modern top fuel engine > requires 800 hp at full boost and maximum rpm. I wonder what they do to the > crank snout to handle that? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:44:05 +0000 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using the same injection system off of your BIG engine(s)? Just got your E, Will do. I know I've said this before, but will post info assoon as I get it... Buddy's not cooperatin,he's afraid I'll make a quicker blown B-engined B-body than he.... Later.... Todd.... - --------------------- Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > The Blower itself, right off the diesel truck or wherever they come > > from(Will find out exactly where these come from) are $100. > > Sold. > > > Rebuild kits are $75. > > Sold. > > > 1.- The carb plate that bolts onto the 'top' of the blower(In your > > 'case' the SIDE of the blower, but you may not need a carb plate since > > you won't be runnin carbs, RIGHT? > > Not necessary. Easy to make one, out of 3/4" aluminum plate, and angle > the carb hole using a dremel to promote smooth airflow. Made these > before. > > > 2.- The intake manifold to bolt the blower to the engine, you may not > > need this either since you doin a funky setup... right? > > Nope :) > > > 3.- Pulleys(1 for crank, 1 for blower. > > Need. > > > 4.- Front plate for pulley setup on blower. > > Need. > > > Sounds like you may only need the front plat efor the pulleys and maybe > > the pulleys? That should cover ya!! > > Yep ! > > > Todd's Blower Service - You name it we'll blow it.... > > Don't say that too loud, the navy boys on the list might come rushing > over to your house :) > > > That sounds a bit faggish, must work on the motto... > > Most definately. :) > > > Fred, would you be plannin on gettin a good ol belly button 6-71 or go > > all out and run the 8-71? > > I'd like a 6-71 for my Buick engine, and a 8-71 for my Dodge B block. > > > Not sure of the 8-71's are the even $100 as the 6-71's are, buddy said > > the 8-71's are REALLY HUGE!! About as big as a s.b. chev! > > Actually, 6-71 for both would be fine. RPMs not that high. > > Let me know when I can order them :) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:48:14 +0000 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Buick V-6, was Prowler V6 GREAT info!, Thanks for it! Will use it soon for the tunnel ram... Already have the intake gaskets... Guess all I have to do is pull the ramcharger hood off the Bee so I can cruise with the tunnel on it... So cool.... Would be cooler with 8 bungs, fuel injectors, and a couple a fuel rails n such.... Thanks a mill! LATER! Todd.....!! - -------------- soren wrote: > > > > I go to the local discount store and get some bicycle brake cable. > > > Disassemble the OE throttle cable and put the bike cable in the molded > end > > > pieces. You can make the cable as long as you want. > > > Heard of the bike SHIFTER cable being used, didn't think about the brake > > cable, not much diff I'm sure, will do!! > > Brake cable is about twice the diameter of shifter cable (usually). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:43:37 +0100 From: Clint Sharp Subject: Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? In message , Alexander Wenning writes >Recently Iīve seen that Boschīs latest rolling road reads the engine rpm from >the battery voltage. When connecting my multimeter to the battery I can read >different frequencies at different rpmīs caused by the alternator. This seems to >be easy but when connecting my 20 MHz-oscilloscope to the battery I can only see >a flat line around 14.0 volts. > Select AC coupling and wind up the gain on the scope, you should see a different trace altogether. As to reading RPM with a pic, should be fairly easy but you'll need to AC couple, amplify and filter the signal, this is the hard bit. - -- Clint Sharp ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #366 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".