DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, June 20 1999 Volume 04 : Number 367 In this issue: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Non A*E* Roots Numbers Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: Non A*E* Roots Numbers Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using thesame injection... ## test ## Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, RE: "Sweet Spot" Re: Non A*E* Roots Numbers Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: Dodge D200 Swap (yet again) Re: Non A*E* Roots Numbers Decision - Blower vs. Turbo Re: Decision - Blower vs. Turbo Holley Projection 4di help Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, archive update Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, NC crank prep/lightening for a DIY'r? Re: NC crank prep/lightening for a DIY'r? Re: NC crank prep/lightening for a DIY'r? Re: Non A*E* Roots Numbers AMC 304 Fuel injection Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, RE: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 06:11:34 -0400 (EDT) From: William T Wilson Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, On Sat, 19 Jun 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > Just wanted to mention that if you pumped 15 lbs. of boost into say, a > 440, you will DEFINITELY be pushin WAY more than 100 hp, more like > 400+ additional....depending on the type of fuel being used.... I think he meant that 100+ hp would be used to power the supercharger itself. What kind of supercharger makes 15 psi of boost? At that sort of pressure your are better off with a turbo. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:55:30 GMT From: bob@xxx.com (Robert Harris) Subject: Non A*E* Roots Numbers Reference " A Do it Yourself Guide to Street Supercharging" Pat Ganahl SA-Design part 17-2 ISBN 51694 00017 3 Chapter 4 - page 33 - reprint of Detroit Deisel charts Horsepower required to drive a 6-71 blower at various pressure levels and amounts of boost - non anally extracted. 20 " HG ( approx 10 PSI ) GMC 6-71 Swept Volume 420 cubic inches per revolution Lower effective limit - 1600 blower rpm - 15 bhp Upper charted rpm - 5200 blower rpm - 65 bhp Volumetric Efficiency - 1600 blower rpm - aprox 20 % Volumetric Efficiency - 5200 blower rpm - aprox 73% GMC-6V-71 Swept Volume -334 cubic inches per revolution Lower effective limit - 1600 blower rpm - 12 bhp Upper charted rpm - 5200 blower rpm - 52 bhp Volumetric Efficiency - 1600 blower rpm - aprox 22 % Volumetric Efficiency - 5200 blower rpm - aprox 72% Temperature Increase with back pressure increase. Ambient Temperature 75 F Test of GMC 6-71 Partial restriction 2000 RPM 1PSI (manifold) 92f (manifold) 4000 RPM 5PSI 98f 6000 RPM 12PSI 200f 7200 RPM 15PSI 230f Repeated with no restriction ( all valves open ) 2000 RPM .5PSI 80f 4000 RPM 2PSI 82f 6000 RPM 3.5PSI 100f 8000 RPM 6.5PSI 210f All above rpm *** BLOWER RPM *** Since the HP and VE figures come from a Detroit Diesel chart published by someone who is not selling any form of turbo wazoo sheeeet hot ting of the week, I tend to trust them more than say Corko Bell - we be turbos - figures. Besides all the combined high performance sales of GMC superchargers probably would not total up to a line item in Detroit Diesels petty cash account. Another little tidbit - a roots type compressor is an external compression device. No compression takes place within the roots unit - its all done in the backpressure of the manifold. Why use an ancient idea - invented and in use a hundred years before saint otto and even before saint carnot for pumping air into mines ?? First, its a positive displacement device. Within its normal range of operations, air gets pounded into the engine, unlike whirly things that sorta maybe move air into the system - if it really wants to. And the whirly things are extremely rpm dependent and take a finite time to speed up. The butt simple roots is more of an engine magnifier. Take a largish amount of cubic inches, multiply by roots drive ratio and you have monster stump puller big block. And yes, after many thousands of dollars from the people who bring you 4" Fart Pipes for Rice Rockets - you can get the same response as simply putting a 6-71 on it plus you can sneer at antique technology that you do not understand and brag about how with massive defecation complication you achieved a power band similar to a half a**ed roots. Then for the truly insane who covet Lancia technology, you can take a couple of whirly thingees and use them to pump into a roots. Its a little known factiod that roots blowers efficiency in all matters goes up with increasing air density and with twin turbos densifying the air prior to the roots, the Lancia got insane power and torque at any point of power curve. And its not fair to compare an un-aftercooled roots to an extensively after cooled whirly thing. Roots systems respond as well or better to after cooling. Ps you can't "inter" anything unless you have one before and one after the "inter" - but I forget that technical stuff has been dumbed down to comic book level to sell overpriced parts to the idiots and inter has more marketing sauve than the truth. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:42:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank F Parker Subject: Re: read engine rpm from battery/alternator??? > -> On a GM altenator, there are 4 pins, one big and 3 small. The 3 small > -> are L for lamp, F for field, and an unlabeled one that we used in a > -> GM race program where rules would not let us use a wheel speed > -> sensor. That pins outputs a frequency proportional to rpm which we > -> used with some engineering math to get vehicle speed. > > Is that the same pin that GM Diesels used for 'tachometer' output? > That would not suprise me that is true. It has been a long time, but I believe a Delco engineer told me they added pin for their own internal testing purposes among other things. regards, frank > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 09:09:49 EDT From: ECMnut@xxx.com Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, > > Point being is that if ALL of the 18-wheelers believe that the way their > blowers are set up(Without the teflon seals on the tips of the lobes, > etc.) are good enough for millions upon billions of miles, WHY would you > wanna mess with that? > Hi Todd, A good seal traanslates to less mechanical motion (less heat) being reaquired to produce to produce a given air flow at "xx" PSI. On the longevity front, I'm not a deisel guy, so just a W.A.G. here..... The application is different in the trucks, which may account for longenvity. Scavenging deisel exhaust gasses prolly means moving a somewhat oily charge through the rotors. In a forced industion app, you're pumping only dry air. Mike V ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 09:34:52 EDT From: ECMnut@xxx.com Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Hi Todd, Leaving out the issue of "HP req to run the blower", If you pump 15 lbs of boost (at 400+ deg F) into a 440, she she prolly won't live long at all, on pump gas. Check with BDS or other old timers for some helpful temp/flow boost curve data. The old GMC design makes lots of heat. I've been digging for some old docs on the above for a "prepped" 671, and can't find it anywhere. BETTER YET, Carl Summers, (AKA the Whipplecharger man) are you out there? He is likely to have data from output temps for different blowers. Mike V > Hpwdy Bill, > > Just wanted to mention that if you pumped 15 lbs. of boost into say, a > 440, you will DEFINITELY be pushin WAY more than 100 hp, more like 400+ > additional....depending on the type of fuel being used.... > > Later.... > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 09:59:24 EDT From: ECMnut@xxx.com Subject: Re: Non A*E* Roots Numbers In a message dated 6/20/99 8:23:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bob@xxx.com writes: > > Ambient Temperature 75 F Test of GMC 6-71 > Partial restriction > > 2000 RPM 1PSI (manifold) 92f (manifold) > 4000 RPM 5PSI 98f > 6000 RPM 12PSI 200f > 7200 RPM 15PSI 230f > > Repeated with no restriction ( all valves open ) > 2000 RPM .5PSI 80f > 4000 RPM 2PSI 82f > 6000 RPM 3.5PSI 100f > 8000 RPM 6.5PSI 210f > > All above rpm *** BLOWER RPM *** Very interesting stuff..... What number is :*** BLOWER RPM ***" at 14 PSI on a 440?? I'm trying to apply the numbers to say, a 440 vs a 350 cid engine in the real world. The blower will obviously run faster (more charge heat) to maintain the same amount of boost for the hungry 440.. Hence, the demand for larger 8-71 units. Is there any reference to CFM @ ? BAR in those tests? Thanks, Mike V ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:12:16 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, will you be using thesame injection... >Guys, snap out of it !! (slap, slap) >You're sacring me... >You're talkin about mid 50s technology. > Roots blowers? Mike--you're giving too much credit--the Jimmy diesels are a _1_9_3_0_'s design! Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 14:59:43 +0100 From: "Dave (G6ZKC)" Subject: ## test ## This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00DF_01BEBB2D.876DE040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable test - ------=_NextPart_000_00DF_01BEBB2D.876DE040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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- ------=_NextPart_000_00DF_01BEBB2D.876DE040-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:50:39 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, >Hey Dave, > >Thanks for the info, very interesting... > >However, ALL the Diesel trucks(18-wheelers, mack trucks, etc...) are ALL >using regular old Blowers in their Billion Mile vehicles, with no >problems, and they'vebeen doin it for YEARS.... > >Just how long HAVE Roots type blowers been around anyhow?... > >Point being is that if ALL of the 18-wheelers believe that the way their >blowers are set up(Without the teflon seals on the tips of the lobes, >etc.) are good enough for millions upon billions of miles, WHY would you >wanna mess with that? > >In other words, just how much more efficient would seals make a regular >old 6-71 huffer? Just wonderin.... > >I'm thinkin that the seals or the like would make the blower as much >more efficient as TOTAL SEAL rings make an engine.... > >Whatcha tink? > See my post from last night--apparently these things run about 8 psi of boost when feeding their stock app. engine. So--they should be pretty reasonably efficient in stock form at that level of boost--truckers are pretty darn sensitive about fuel mileage, after all--it is their bread and butter! But--when you start asking one of these huffers to make two or three times as much boost as it was designed to, then the better seals would become pretty important in a BIG hurry! Prolly the same thing goes for stronger end plates and better bearings when there is more load on the blower! Regards, Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:53:49 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, >Hpwdy Bill, > >Just wanted to mention that if you pumped 15 lbs. of boost into say, a >440, you will DEFINITELY be pushin WAY more than 100 hp, more like 400+ >additional....depending on the type of fuel being used.... > >Later.... > >Todd... He meant power to drive the blower, not how much more the engine would make, either gross, or net of the blower drive! Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:57:05 -0700 From: Bill Edgeworth Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, > > > >I have also been told that a screw charger on a modern top fuel engine > >requires 800 hp at full boost and maximum rpm. > > I think this is a BIT of an exageration > > Greg As I said thats what I was told If you look at the post from Robert Harris and then consider that these things are putting 50-60 pounds of boost into a 500cid engine turning 10,000 rpm. Its got to be a big load. Of course they cannot do this with a 6-71. Bill Edgeworth ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:28:20 -0700 From: Eric Aos Subject: RE: "Sweet Spot" > > 'course if you did this the magnitude of the peak pressure would > necessarily be lower... > That's the easy answer.... what if the chamber were in fact a piston ???? it's stroke set to chase the first piston down the bore until the desired number of degrees ATDC, then ignite the mixture? You could incorporate 2-stroke porting, and get rid of the valves all together. Lesse, 228% per power stroke, and a power stroke every revolution... might be worth the extra mechanics. > > On Fri, 18 Jun 1999, Eric Aos wrote: > > > > If you set up a series of tests such that the only thing that > > > varied was the > > > spark advance, and you moved it such that the pressure peak > > > varied from 10 to > > > 20 degrees atdc > > > > Just imagine for a moment though if you could change that > to 73 degrees > > (for a 350 Chevy 3.48 stroke, and 5.7 rod) this is where leverage is > > maximum (90 deg between rod, and crank throw). For a 228% > increase in > > leverage... > > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 09:21:38 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Non A*E* Roots Numbers One of the more significant things to observe in the numbers posted here is how LOW the VE for a Roots is at low engine/blower speed--these low VE numbers at low speed translate to not much boost there until the revs are up a bit!! A VATN turbo will actually get the boost up a LOT SOONER than a Roots or a Screw huffer!! Get it up rates for VATN turbo/ Roots/conventional turbo are prolly sorta comparable to the same rates for a 15 year old boy/ 30 year old man/50 year old man! Another point to consider--Don't even THINK about running a Roots or a screw in "blow thru" configuration! > >Then for the truly insane who covet Lancia technology, you can take a couple >of whirly thingees and use them to pump into a roots. Its a little known >factiod that roots blowers efficiency in all matters goes up with increasing >air density and with twin turbos densifying the air prior to the roots, the >Lancia got insane power and torque at any point of power curve. This technology is not original to Lancia--GMC has done plenty of it on the 2 cycle Jimmy diesels, as well-- and prolly long before Lancia ever tried it. Look the 350 HP 8V-71 in those Detroit Diesel manuals, and observe the "whirly thingies" feeding the Roots! This is only one example of many. A 4-53 T is a pretty common heavy equipment motor. > >And its not fair to compare an un-aftercooled roots to an extensively after >cooled whirly thing. Roots systems respond as well or better to after >cooling. Ps you can't "inter" anything unless you have one before and one >after the "inter" - but I forget that technical stuff has been dumbed down to >comic book level to sell overpriced parts to the idiots and inter has more >marketing sauve than the truth. Agree completely as to the after vs. inter semantics, but somebody somewhere has written down a definition saying that inter means after--betcha hear about it!! Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:47:21 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, At 10:53 PM 6/19/99 +0000, you wrote: >Hey Dave, > >Thanks for the info, very interesting... > >However, ALL the Diesel trucks(18-wheelers, mack trucks, etc...) are ALL >using regular old Blowers in their Billion Mile vehicles, with no >problems, and they'vebeen doin it for YEARS.... > There are actually more turbocharged diesel trucks around now than blown... Even the diesel manufacturers found the turbo was MUCH more efficient than a roots blower. If you ever get a chance to peer under the hood of a GM General, take note on the size of the turbo's... they're HUGE. those big diesels with 18:1 or 20:1 compression are running 20+ pounds boost off the turbo and making gobs of torque! >Just how long HAVE Roots type blowers been around anyhow?... > For ever! >Point being is that if ALL of the 18-wheelers believe that the way their >blowers are set up(Without the teflon seals on the tips of the lobes, >etc.) are good enough for millions upon billions of miles, WHY would you >wanna mess with that? > The old GM diesels with blowers actually use the blower on the 2 stroke diesels only... I have seen some books that show the blower on the exhaust side sucking exhaust out to help scan\venge, and I have seen some books showing them on the intake side. In either case, they are not required to build any respectable pressure, only to assist in moving air/exhaust. >In other words, just how much more efficient would seals make a regular >old 6-71 huffer? Just wonderin.... > A bit, but it's efficiency is still way down compared to a properly sized turbo system >I'm thinkin that the seals or the like would make the blower as much >more efficient as TOTAL SEAL rings make an engine.... > there could be a comparison there... Normal rings set up properly in a properly prepared/built engine have very little problems... Total seal gapless rings also have a bit over that in sealing capacity, but the result is more like pissing yourself while wearing a black suit... It gives you a warm feeling, but no one else notices. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:49:34 -0400 From: "David A. Cooley" Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, At 07:57 AM 6/20/99 -0700, you wrote: > > >As I said thats what I was told >If you look at the post from Robert Harris and then consider that these things >are putting 50-60 pounds of boost into a 500cid engine turning 10,000 rpm. Its >got to be a big load. >Of course they cannot do this with a 6-71. Last I heard they are using what would be classified as a 16-70 or a 18-71 sized blower for top fuel. =========================================================== David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:03:10 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Dodge D200 Swap (yet again) > Why did ya pull the 318? Did it go bad? Can't remember... Well, long story summarized: Qty (1) D200, w/318, w/over 400k on original engine, labeled 318 (A) for discussion. 318(A) worked fine, then developed loss of oil pressure. Small fracture in block I never noticed cracked through, so now I had a large hole in block just above oil pan, which I temporary repaired with stainless steel exhaust tape until I could find another 318 that ran good in the various junkyards. Yanked engine, swapped in 1988 318, labeled (B) for discussion. 318 (B) worked fine for a while, then developed low oil pressure at idle, then no oil pressure at all. Then, loud knocking sound (bearings?) appeared and while I raced home to get it in the driveway, it died and something "disconnected" and makes a nasty slapping sound. I'm assuming a rod-end at the bottom broke open, or maybe a wrist pin went, or something like that. So, that's what I yanked this weekend, the "new" 318. I already junked the one with the stainless steel tape on it, however the intake and carb is mounted on the one I just yanked, so I have to swap that over to the new 318, labeled (C) for discussion :) This 318 actually was opened up, rehoned, new bearings, rings and gaskets, so it should be in better shape than the junker's I've been shoving in there. > What's goin back into the truck? Will it not get the B treatment? The 383 stroker turbocharged engine is not ready go to in there. I destroyed the first one, and the second one is almost ready, but I need the truck running now, so I'll do a conversion later in the summer. Gives me more time to figure out the GM 7730 ECM - it runs the engine okay "stock" but when the turbo's kick in, it freaks out. It runs great with the Haltach ECM I have on it now, but I don't want to put that into the truck, unless somehow I run into another Haltech or Electromotive unit. > Do you have a digital camera? or are ya usin REAL FILM to take your > pics? OR a video with a video card to scan the pics in directly from > the vid? Oh, I have an original old style Epson PhotoPC. Huge beast, but takes nice pictures for a website. 320x240x64 mil in low res (great for web) and 640x480x16mil in hi res. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:12:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Davies Subject: Re: Non A*E* Roots Numbers On Sun, 20 Jun 1999, Robert Harris wrote: > Besides all the combined high performance sales of GMC superchargers probably > would not total up to a line item in Detroit Diesels petty cash account. > > Another little tidbit - a roots type compressor is an external compression > device. No compression takes place within the roots unit - its all done in > the backpressure of the manifold. > > Why use an ancient idea - invented and in use a hundred years before saint > otto and even before saint carnot for pumping air into mines ?? > > First, its a positive displacement device. Within its normal range of > operations, air gets pounded into the engine, unlike whirly things that sorta > maybe move air into the system - if it really wants to. And the whirly things > are extremely rpm dependent and take a finite time to speed up. > > And its not fair to compare an un-aftercooled roots to an extensively after > cooled whirly thing. Roots systems respond as well or better to after > cooling. For those who may be historically inclined, the turbo vs supercharger debate has been going on for over 50 years. I dont think there is anything new to bring to the debate and the reason the debate still exists is because the bottom line is this: its six of one and half a dozen of the other. > Then for the truly insane who covet Lancia technology, you can take a couple > of whirly thingees and use them to pump into a roots. Its a little known > factiod that roots blowers efficiency in all matters goes up with increasing > air density and with twin turbos densifying the air prior to the roots, the > Lancia got insane power and torque at any point of power curve. Historically speaking, Lancia can hardly claim authorship of this [not that they are...] Detroit Diesel uses this idea on many -53, -71 and -92 series diesels and its use was so common in WW2 American aircraft engines that is too long a list to include here. Some basic aircraft types of WW2 that used a supercharger [single speed or two-speed] as a second stage that was fed by a turbocharger first stage: B-29, B-17, B-24, P-38, P-47 etc. Lest you wonder why old tech is relevent today; this stuff ran very high boost pressures because the gasoline used allowed it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:21:18 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Decision - Blower vs. Turbo > Buddy's not cooperatin,he's afraid I'll make a quicker blown B-engined > B-body than he.... Actually, don't kill yourself over it. I'll tell you why. After I yanked out the 318 last night I looked through the engine compartment again (fun standing in there, I could almost setup a chair and a BBQ under the hood!), I started to realize the blower thing is going to be much more work for prolly less results. Why? While I'm working (slowly) in a new stroker motor, the peripherals for turbocharging are already in existance. I have the flanges, a wastegate, a plenum, the two turbos, among a variety of other parts. So, to go turbocharged, I merely have to bolt it together and tune and go. The other advantage I see for turbocharging, specifically twin turbo, is the way the engine bay is laid out. While the hood area is a giant box, the turbos will fit where I made the headers, so there is no cutting into the hood, bending or notching of frame rails, crossmembers, or other things. I'd just have to mount the brake line to the rear wheels on the outside of the frame rail, rather than the inside, so it doesn't bake. With a 6-71 blower, I have a nasty big-ass hole to cut into the hood. While that's not a big deal, then everyone will see the blower, and "Hey dude, wanna race?" Its the culture here, and I'd rather avoid that. I'm building a stump puller not a Vette killer. The last thing I see, is it appears that the roots blowers pick up their boost pressure at higher RPMs. I'd have to fabricate pulleys to get it up sooner, because I'll never hit 5000 RPM ever with this engine, so the blower isn't going to make all that much. By using two slightly undersized turbos and keeping the redline at 4k RPM, I should have my 10lbs boost fairly quickly, with minimal to no lag, and it should be a happy motor without detonation. THis was the original theory. However, after playing on the dyno, we got exactly that - 10lbs boost at 3900 RPM, minimal if any lag, little to no detonation, and a smooth, reliable engine. Though ours leaned out and died. But that was a human error, not a failure in parts. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:46:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Clive Apps Techno-Logicals 416 510 0020" Subject: Re: Decision - Blower vs. Turbo > > While I'm working (slowly) in a new stroker motor, the peripherals for > turbocharging are already in existance. I have the flanges, a > wastegate, a plenum, the two turbos, among a variety of other parts. > So, to go turbocharged, I merely have to bolt it together and tune and > go. the other big advantage to turbos is that they produce more boost under heavier loads at the same RPM this is what you want in a puller Clive ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:47:44 -0600 From: "Scott & Aida Peterson" Subject: Holley Projection 4di help I am looking for a way to capture the output from my Holley Projection 4di. I would like to capture the rpm, throttle position, MAP, O2 sensor readings, etc... Does anyone know where I can find some better software or how to capture these readings? Thanks, Scott Peterson Running a 900 cfm 4Di on a mild 406 chevy Denver ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 14:35:29 -0400 From: "Clare Snyder" Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, June 20, 1999 9:09 AM Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, > > > > Point being is that if ALL of the 18-wheelers believe that the way their > > blowers are set up(Without the teflon seals on the tips of the lobes, > > etc.) are good enough for millions upon billions of miles, WHY would you > > wanna mess with that? > > > Hi Todd, > A good seal traanslates to less mechanical motion > (less heat) being reaquired to produce to produce > a given air flow at "xx" PSI. > On the longevity front, I'm not a deisel guy, > so just a W.A.G. here..... > The application is different in the trucks, which > may account for longenvity. Scavenging deisel > exhaust gasses prolly means moving a somewhat > oily charge through the rotors. In a forced industion > app, you're pumping only dry air. > Mike V Am I missing something here?I thought the squeezer on the GM wheezer WAS forced induction! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:53:18 -0500 From: Steve Ravet Subject: archive update I've been pounding WAIS documentation into my head with a 30 lb/13.6 kg slide hammer (as Bob would say) trying to make the archive search engine more user friendly. I've made some progress but have decided that the WAIS manual is only useful to people who don't need it. If ANYONE out there knows ANYTHING about creating format definition (.fmt) files for WAIS/freeWAIS then PLEASE EMAIL ME PRIVATELY. There is a lot of potential for this thing to be really neat but I'm up to my a** in wonderful unix-style slashes, carets, starts, dots, etc. I guess Kernigan and the rest of those guys were saving the letters for something really special? "No point in using letters as long as there's another punctuation symbol available." thanks in advance, - --steve - -- Steve Ravet sravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, INC www.arm.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:59:33 -0600 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, >At 07:57 AM 6/20/99 -0700, you wrote: >> > >> >>As I said thats what I was told >>If you look at the post from Robert Harris and then consider that these things >>are putting 50-60 pounds of boost into a 500cid engine turning 10,000 rpm. Its >>got to be a big load. >>Of course they cannot do this with a 6-71. > >Last I heard they are using what would be classified as a 16-70 or a 18-71 >sized blower for top fuel. Or mebbe a 12-92, or even a 16-92. The first of these numbers is the number of cylinders the original application diesel has, the second number is the cid per cylinder of the diesel. Autorotor just came out with a new, bigger than before available screw supercharger--that displaces about 2 or 2.2 liters per compressor revolution (before the VE correction. That is as big as they go, unless somebody has adapted a Joy or Gardner Denver, or a Sulair screw compressor, or the like! Carl Summers prolly has the exact info on this! Greg >=========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! >=========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:54:17 -0700 From: Ross Corrigan Subject: NC crank prep/lightening for a DIY'r? I've flogged my other lists for info but time and again I get my best info from you guys so here's another NC from me but I know the experience is here: anyone worked on their own crankshaft preps at home, lightening the big ends/drilling them out, filleting etc? I've been reading Vizards prepping your bottom end book and think I'd like to do that on my own if it's possible, and then just have it balanced/polished at a machine shop. I know I coudn't pay a machine shop for all that prep etc but reading his book it sounds like I'd enjoy doing it on my own if it's feasible. I just got a diegrinder etc, don't have a drill press etc but not how sure one has to be with the drilling as far as being as accurate as a drill press if it's balanced/cleaned up after. I do know you have to either miss the oil galleys or 'tube' them out after to reconnect them. Sounds like a fine way to take a few pounds off the rotating masses. Thinking of doing this w/ a 400 crank for a 383 or a 406 BTW. Makes it alot easier to internally balance a 400 crank as well as a few other benefits but I'm sure others are far more informed than I on this... all ideer's/info/input always welcome! This shortblock will be to replace my current OEM '68 327 shortblock that's been wearing steadily of late and I want to preemtively replace it. It's all in my '80 280ZX with a 4spd automatic I daily drive and roadrace at SIR trackdays and autox , rpm's currently stay under 5000 with old motor but I'd like a 6000redline on the 'newer' one. Looking for a very reliable well mannered torquey motor simple for me to work with. EFI content, I have a used holley 4di on my shelf but that install is on the backburner for now. PS we moved 3 mos. ago and now I finally have a garage and just wired up my compressor etc so am looking fwd to being able to do more on my own! No more waiting for sunny days to do work on the street. Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv@xxx.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 16:43:00 -0400 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: NC crank prep/lightening for a DIY'r? The only thing I've done at home on a crank (and I have no real power tools other than a dremel, drill press, and a sawzall) was to apply a knife edge to a Buick crank. Once I had achieved the shape I wanted, I had it balanced with the rest of the interal assembly, which left the machine shop to do the remaining work. They wanted 200 bucks to knife edge the crank, which is not that difficult to do with a dremel. Slow and steady. I did a little port work on various heads, and that's not to difficult either. balancing a crank with drilling and filling with heavier metals is a real talent in my book. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 14:52:22 -0700 From: Ross Corrigan Subject: Re: NC crank prep/lightening for a DIY'r? >They wanted 200 bucks to knife edge the crank, which is not that >difficult to do with a dremel. Slow and steady. sounds good, I have a dremel and now the air die grinder, haven't boughten any bits for the die grinder sides the stones that came with it as they were pricey and I didn't know what I needed yet, maybe their's a kit w/ the bits I'd need? (Eastwood?) >I did a little port work on various heads, and that's not to difficult >either. balancing a crank with drilling and filling with heavier metals >is a real talent in my book. The drilling I was talking about is drilling through the 'four big end journals' as Vizard says, worth 1.5 lbs and then consequently 1.5 lbs is removed from the counterweights (by the balancer) so that adds up to a nice reduction in weight. The more I read it it sounds like machine shop work for the drilling. Correctly done he goes on to say how this can strengthen the crank. He talks about ~23hrs of die grinder prep for a crank, that's the part I could probably enjoy doing myself once the end's are drilled by a machinist. Then I'd get the balancing done by a pro obviously. Any good before/after pics anywhere for knife edging etc? Ross Corrigan / Vancouver, Canada '80 327ZX IZCC#255, Edmonton Z-car Club #44, British Columbia ZCR Life's a journey, not a destination.. Enjoy the pitstops and maximize the straights mailto:zxv@xxx.ca *New ICQ # 11549358 http://home.iSTAR.ca/~zxv/index.shtml http://207.212.212.139/~corrigan/gearheads/pics/wheels/sirbg.jpg where a Z belongs ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:20:54 -0700 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: Non A*E* Roots Numbers >One of the more significant things to observe in the numbers posted here is >how LOW the VE for a Roots is at low engine/blower speed--these low VE >numbers at low speed translate to not much boost there until the revs are >up a bit!! A VATN turbo will actually get the boost up a LOT SOONER than a >Roots or a Screw huffer!! Get it up rates for VATN turbo/ >Roots/conventional turbo are prolly sorta comparable to the same rates for >a 15 year old boy/ 30 year old man/50 year old man! > >Another point to consider--Don't even THINK about running a Roots or a >screw in "blow thru" configuration! I agree completely with your comments regarding the "Roots" blowers. On the other hand, "Screw" compressor technology has come a long way over the years. You might be surprised by the performance figures for an optimized screw unit, no matter whether you want to examine 1)Dry Discharge Temperature 2)Adiabatic Efficiency 3)Volumetric Efficiency 4)Parasitic Power 5)Internal Compression Ratio...........etc. Sized correctly, a screw(s) can nearly match the peak efficiency of a good turbo system, but do so over a much broader range, with near instant response (wet or dry). Do you have a URL for the VATN turbos? Walt. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:40:21 -0700 From: "Michael Selig" Subject: AMC 304 Fuel injection Has anyone installed an EFI setup in a CJ Jeep -with an AMC 304 V8. I am told a company called Turbo City has a TBI unit. Anyone know more?? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:57:49 -0700 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, >Autorotor just came out with a new, bigger than before available screw >supercharger--that displaces about 2 or 2.2 liters per compressor >revolution (before the VE correction. That is as big as they go, unless >somebody has adapted a Joy or Gardner Denver, or a Sulair screw compressor, >or the like! One compressor "family" @xxx.2litre per revolution max, and the other compressor "family" @xxx. VE is shaft speed and pressure ratio dependant, but typically spends a lot of it's time in the high 80's. Of course their super-serious-competition screws are even larger. Walt. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 19:18:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, - -> Roots blowers? If you're going to drive it - -> with a belt, get some type of screwcharger - -> or vortech... (or Eaton?) You're talking about a situation where Dave's Law applies. $1000-ish for an equipped 6-71, $2500-ish for anything else. Also consider the centrifugal and screw compressors aren't quite big enough for a big block; to get adequate volume you need at least two of anything but the largest new centrifugals. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:51:18 -0400 From: "Knowlden and/or Eller" Subject: RE: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Does Autorotor have a web site? Bob - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu [mailto:owner-diy_efi@xxx.edu]On Behalf Of Walter Sherwin Sent: Sunday, June 20, 1999 9:58 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.edu Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, >Autorotor just came out with a new, bigger than before available screw >supercharger--that displaces about 2 or 2.2 liters per compressor >revolution (before the VE correction. That is as big as they go, unless >somebody has adapted a Joy or Gardner Denver, or a Sulair screw compressor, >or the like! One compressor "family" @xxx.2litre per revolution max, and the other compressor "family" @xxx. VE is shaft speed and pressure ratio dependant, but typically spends a lot of it's time in the high 80's. Of course their super-serious-competition screws are even larger. Walt. ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #367 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".