DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, June 22 1999 Volume 04 : Number 372 In this issue: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Re: Decision - Blower vs. Turbo cc's of fuel to cc's of air Re: Archives Block Strength injector liquidation See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:33:49 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Hey Bill, Top Fueler Rails, in the 4 second range only turn in the 7K rpm range. Can't remember the boost number... Later.... Todd..... - ------- Bill Edgeworth wrote: > > > > > > > >I have also been told that a screw charger on a modern top fuel engine > > >requires 800 hp at full boost and maximum rpm. > > > > I think this is a BIT of an exageration > > > > Greg > > As I said thats what I was told > If you look at the post from Robert Harris and then consider that these things > are putting 50-60 pounds of boost into a 500cid engine turning 10,000 rpm. Its > got to be a big load. > Of course they cannot do this with a 6-71. > > Bill Edgeworth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:37:46 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Hey William, Accordin to Don Hampton of Hampton Blowers: http://www.hamptonblowers.com/ He sells a pulley for 5-8 lbs. boost and one for from 10-15 lbs. boost... My buddies gonna get both of em, one for street driving, and one for strip! Cool? Later, Todd.... - --------- William T Wilson wrote: > > On Sat, 19 Jun 1999, Todd....!! wrote: > > > Just wanted to mention that if you pumped 15 lbs. of boost into say, a > > 440, you will DEFINITELY be pushin WAY more than 100 hp, more like > > 400+ additional....depending on the type of fuel being used.... > > I think he meant that 100+ hp would be used to power the supercharger > itself. > > What kind of supercharger makes 15 psi of boost? At that sort of pressure > your are better off with a turbo. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:40:25 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Good point Mike, May need to run some sorta alcohol or water pre injection thru the blower in order to cool the intake charge, ey? Later.... Todd... - --------- ECMnut@xxx.com wrote: > > Hi Todd, > Leaving out the issue of "HP req to run the blower", > If you pump 15 lbs of boost (at 400+ deg F) into a 440, she > she prolly won't live long at all, on pump gas. Check with BDS > or other old timers for some helpful temp/flow boost curve data. > The old GMC design makes lots of heat. I've been digging for > some old docs on the above for a "prepped" 671, and can't find > it anywhere. BETTER YET, Carl Summers, > (AKA the Whipplecharger man) are you out there? > He is likely to have data from output temps for different blowers. > Mike V > > > Hpwdy Bill, > > > > Just wanted to mention that if you pumped 15 lbs. of boost into say, a > > 440, you will DEFINITELY be pushin WAY more than 100 hp, more like 400+ > > additional....depending on the type of fuel being used.... > > > > Later.... > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:45:31 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Todd's sure fire blower sale - Fred, Cool David, Have seen the turbos in the diesels, have even measured them for use on my 440, the exhaust outlet on the turbo measured 4 inches! The cubes may be a bit on the high side as far as the turbo being oversized... Not sure of the cubes of the engine I was checkin the turbo on.... I have NO probem with turbo's, but If I can get about the same power out of a less expensive means, then I may just try it... I DO really like the controlability of the boost on a turbo system.... AND the fact that a turbo system can generate FULL boost right off the line with a simple power brake.... Thanks for the info, very interesting! Later! Todd.... David A. Cooley wrote: > > At 10:53 PM 6/19/99 +0000, you wrote: > >Hey Dave, > > > >Thanks for the info, very interesting... > > > >However, ALL the Diesel trucks(18-wheelers, mack trucks, etc...) are ALL > >using regular old Blowers in their Billion Mile vehicles, with no > >problems, and they'vebeen doin it for YEARS.... > > > > There are actually more turbocharged diesel trucks around now than blown... > Even the diesel manufacturers found the turbo was MUCH more efficient than > a roots blower. If you ever get a chance to peer under the hood of a GM > General, take note on the size of the turbo's... they're HUGE. those big > diesels with 18:1 or 20:1 compression are running 20+ pounds boost off the > turbo and making gobs of torque! > > >Just how long HAVE Roots type blowers been around anyhow?... > > > > For ever! > > >Point being is that if ALL of the 18-wheelers believe that the way their > >blowers are set up(Without the teflon seals on the tips of the lobes, > >etc.) are good enough for millions upon billions of miles, WHY would you > >wanna mess with that? > > > > The old GM diesels with blowers actually use the blower on the 2 stroke > diesels only... I have seen some books that show the blower on the exhaust > side sucking exhaust out to help scan\venge, and I have seen some books > showing them on the intake side. In either case, they are not required to > build any respectable pressure, only to assist in moving air/exhaust. > > >In other words, just how much more efficient would seals make a regular > >old 6-71 huffer? Just wonderin.... > > > > A bit, but it's efficiency is still way down compared to a properly sized > turbo system > > >I'm thinkin that the seals or the like would make the blower as much > >more efficient as TOTAL SEAL rings make an engine.... > > > > there could be a comparison there... Normal rings set up properly in a > properly prepared/built engine have very little problems... Total seal > gapless rings also have a bit over that in sealing capacity, but the result > is more like pissing yourself while wearing a black suit... It gives you a > warm feeling, but no one else notices. > > =========================================================== > David Cooley N5XMT Internet: N5XMT@xxx.net > Packet: N5XMT@xxx. Member #7068 > Sponges grow in the ocean... Wonder how deep it would be if they didn't?! > =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:00:04 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: Decision - Blower vs. Turbo How how many cubes and how much power are we talkin from your Fuel Injected Big Block Mope? What numbers did ya get from the scenarios ya ran in teh software? Later, Todd.... - ------ Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > > Buddy's not cooperatin,he's afraid I'll make a quicker blown B-engined > > B-body than he.... > > Actually, don't kill yourself over it. I'll tell you why. After I > yanked out the 318 last night I looked through the engine compartment > again (fun standing in there, I could almost setup a chair and a BBQ > under the hood!), I started to realize the blower thing is going to be > much more work for prolly less results. Why? > > While I'm working (slowly) in a new stroker motor, the peripherals for > turbocharging are already in existance. I have the flanges, a > wastegate, a plenum, the two turbos, among a variety of other parts. > So, to go turbocharged, I merely have to bolt it together and tune and > go. > > The other advantage I see for turbocharging, specifically twin turbo, is > the way the engine bay is laid out. While the hood area is a giant box, > the turbos will fit where I made the headers, so there is no cutting > into the hood, bending or notching of frame rails, crossmembers, or > other things. I'd just have to mount the brake line to the rear wheels > on the outside of the frame rail, rather than the inside, so it doesn't > bake. With a 6-71 blower, I have a nasty big-ass hole to cut into the > hood. While that's not a big deal, then everyone will see the blower, > and "Hey dude, wanna race?" Its the culture here, and I'd rather avoid > that. I'm building a stump puller not a Vette killer. > > The last thing I see, is it appears that the roots blowers pick up their > boost pressure at higher RPMs. I'd have to fabricate pulleys to get it > up sooner, because I'll never hit 5000 RPM ever with this engine, so the > blower isn't going to make all that much. > > By using two slightly undersized turbos and keeping the redline at 4k > RPM, I should have my 10lbs boost fairly quickly, with minimal to no > lag, and it should be a happy motor without detonation. THis was the > original theory. However, after playing on the dyno, we got exactly > that - 10lbs boost at 3900 RPM, minimal if any lag, little to no > detonation, and a smooth, reliable engine. Though ours leaned out and > died. But that was a human error, not a failure in parts. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:32:50 -0700 From: "Damon Kelley" Subject: cc's of fuel to cc's of air Does anyone have a formula for find required cc's of fuel for a given cc's of air for stoichometric(sp?) mixture. Any useable volume units will be sufficient. Thanks Damon Kelley 87 Shadow ES T1 A-520 Cold Air Induction, Bleedin' 89 Sundance N/A 89 CSX #208 26,000miles in 5 months or less 96 Sebring JXi Conv 96 CBR600F3 Soon to have cute little talon turbo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:43:33 -0400 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Archives Geoff Richards wrote: > > Shannen wrote >In summary, you'll need an eprom burner, and an eraser, (a computer, >of course), an adapter (ecm dependent) and a prom. This will start >you down the road to reading and burning proms. And reading and >burning proms is amazingly easy. You'll want to read the instructions >that come with your burner, and give yourself some time to get >familiar with the tools. >Thank you,this is what I wanted to know BUT does the burner required > depend on which ECM I want to play with ? > I have seen plenty of burners advertised but have been too scared to > part with the $ if it's not what I need > > If you know what type of Eprom is in your ECM, you can make sure the burner and software will do the job. There was an informal survey done, and IIRC the most popular burner was a Needham's part. The title may have been burners, or an extension of programming 101, or somesuch. Bruce Plecan was the poster. > >The questions you should answer first are what ECM am I going to work > >with (what car is it in), and what's the final goal. > > I want to work on a PCM in the Holdens and my goal will be to just tidy > up (for want of better words) the easier details ,like changing TCC lock- > up speeds > Also with the particular Holden I am interested in we experience a cold > stall hesitation that is overcome by a replacement memcal > In the future I would like to be able to read the revised memcal and > modify mine accordingly Copying proms has (so far) been like copying casette tapes. Read the master, erase the destination Eprom, burn the new file into it. This is the easiest way to change a calibration, and requires the least knowledge. Modifying calibrations takes some skill. You need to know what locations in the prom to change, and what values you can change them to, along with how to use your editing software. Understanding the effects of what you're changing goes above and beyond a fifteen minute excursion. That's a big hurdle for us wrenching types (methinks for others, too). > Anyway that's enough from me > Thanks once again > Geoff Shannen ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:24:21 -0700 From: Bill Edgeworth Subject: Block Strength > > No, the Hemi block was/is cast from an entirely different set of molds. I > agree with your view of the 400 block - It is an excellent block especially > if you can find one out of a vehicle that had the "Trailer pulling Package" > - this block was a high nickel content block (similar to the Hemi and the > marine castings), very strong... > rap This is true the new blocks are also "improved" over the original design. The hemi also had a different motor mount flange than the b/rb. I'm not sure but I think the new mopar performance blocks all have siamesed bores and extra material and webbing added in high stress areas. I think this is even true of the 426 replacement block they now manufacture. All in all the hemi and b/rb engines are an excellent choice for use in supercharged applications (issue of another string) this is due to the crank being recessed into the block. Back when people tried to use the Boss 429 hemi in fuelers (which had a excellent head design) the bottom ends just were not strong enough and they spit the entire bottom end out of the engine.(prior to the avalability of after market t/f blocks) Bill Edgeworth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:44:51 -0500 From: steve ravet Subject: injector liquidation Got this note from a company liquidating an inventory of injectors: - --steve > mark wrote: > > We are currently liquidating an inventory of Airtex Fuel injectors and > related parts. We will sell individual pieces or any part of the > inventory, at considerable discount. The list can be found at > http://www.sherco-auto.com/airtex.htm . We also have a selection of > parts for earlier fuel injection (cfi/efi) at > http://www.sherco-auto.com/fuelinj.htm If you think that the group > might be interested in these items, please post accordingly. We have > received many referrals from the members in the past and we will > continue to serve your group with the all the quality and value that > you should expect. > > Mark Sherman, VP Sales > Sherco Auto Supply > 3700 NW 124 Ave > Coral Springs, FL 33065 > 954-344-1993 Fax 954-344-2664 > http://www.sherco-auto.com parts@xxx.com - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #372 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".