DIY_EFI Digest Friday, July 30 1999 Volume 04 : Number 441 In this issue: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #440 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #440 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #437 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:12:58 +0100 From: "Alan Smith" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #440 I am particularly interested in disassembling Bosch or Digifant ECU's. If you have an EPROM reader I would appreciate copies of the Bosch EPROMS to examine. Does anyone know of a web site where I can download Bosch Eproms for European Eproms e.g Motronic or Digifant ECU's. If not could anybody please send me eprom dumps and I will create a site. I am interested in writing tuning software for eventual free distribution and user support but I need the eprom images, ECU circuit diagrams etc to get the info first. Does anyone have info about converting Bosch encoded chip types to the real device numbers ? All help, files appreciated. Alan - -----Original Message----- From: DIY_EFI Digest To: DIY_EFI-Digest@xxx.edu Date: 30 July 1999 11:10 Subject: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #440 > >DIY_EFI Digest Friday, July 30 1999 Volume 04 : Number 440 > > > >In this issue: > > double flares > Re: Supercharged carb set ups > pinout/applications > Re: FI Fuel Lines > Re: carb s/c and Haltech temp sensor > Re: pinout/applications > >See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the >DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:15:03 -0500 >From: steve ravet >Subject: double flares > >> Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 09:10:32 -0400 >> From: Bill Shaw >> Subject: FI Fuel Lines >> >> Hi All, >> >> I'm in the process of plumbing the fuel system for my Fiat FI conversion. I ran across a term in the >> archives I'm not familiar with concerning making steel fuel lines: double flare. Can someone explain >> what a double flare is and how to do it? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Bill Shaw >> >> ------------------------------ > >Double flare is when the metal is folded down into the flare. Think of >a single flare with a collar. If you cut the tube down the length it >would look like this: > > >single flare > \ > \_________ > _________ > / > / > >double flare > > |\ > \\_______ > _______ > // > |/ > >The metal flares out, then doubles over inside the flare. The tool is >expensive, and it's fairly difficult to get right. You create a >"bubble" at the end of the line with "tool A", then cave it in to make >the double flare with a regular flaring tool. I've been buying >pre-flared tubing at Napa, and bending it as necessary. > >- --steve > >- -- >Steve Ravet >steve.ravet@xxx.com >Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. >www.arm.com > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:47:33 -0500 >From: "Robert W. Hughes" >Subject: Re: Supercharged carb set ups > >> Just a mention. Studebaker used blow through carbs on it's >> supercharged V8s in the 50s and 60s. The trick they used was to >> builda pressure box around the whole carb, avoiding the problem of >> reduced fuel flow by pressurizing the bowl to boost pressure. The metering >> can then be kept consistant. >> They used a regular Carter AFB 4-bbl, no modifications other than the >> pressure box. > >Almost. If you look at the top of an ordinary mechanical fuel pump, you >will see a small hole in the cover. This is the pressure reference for >the pump. Studebaker added a line from here to the blower output so that >fuel pressure rose with boost. In case of a ruptured diaphragm in the >pump, this would cause the crankcase to be pumped full of gasoline. > >- -- >Robert W. Hughes (Bob) >BackYard Engineering >Houston, Texas >rwhughe@xxx.net > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 17:36:41 -0600 >From: cwagner@xxx.net >Subject: pinout/applications > >I have 2 computers that are for a BOSCH KE- >Jetronic system. The numbers that I can find >are 0-280-800-104(105)/811-906-264 and the other >computer has 0-280-800-123/811-906-264-C. I >would like to know what cars they came out of >and also pinouts/wiring schematics. > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 20:03:04 -0400 >From: Shannen Durphey >Subject: Re: FI Fuel Lines > >Bill Shaw writes: >> >> Hi All, >> >> I'm in the process of plumbing the fuel system for my Fiat FI conversion. I ran across a term in the >> archives I'm not familiar with concerning making steel fuel lines: double flare. Can someone explain >> what a double flare is and how to do it? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Bill Shaw >> >> ------------------------------ >It's a two step process used to flare steel tubing for brake and fuel >lines. The first step "folds" the end of the tubing back towards >itself, the second step finishes the "fold" and makes the actual >flare. >See here: >http://www.chevelles.com/tools/tl4.html. >Shannen > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:33:04 +0800 >From: dzorde@xxx.com >Subject: Re: carb s/c and Haltech temp sensor > >> Have another favour to ask from a friean in the Fiat club. Has anyone found a >> commercially available sensor that will replace the Haltech air temp sensor. >> This is the temp curve required: >> >> 100C -> 185 ohm >> >>This exactly matches the description of the GM MAT sensor and coolant >temp sensor in my 87 Fiero shop manual. > >thanks to everyone that replied, it seems the match is a GM unit. So far it >matches the 87 Fiero and 91 V6 syclone. > >> Just a mention. Studebaker used blow through carbs on it's >>supercharged V8s in the 50s and 60s. The trick they used was to >>builda pressure box around the whole carb, avoiding the problem of >>reduced fuel flow by pressurizing the bowl to boost pressure. The metering >>can then be kept consistant. >> They used a regular Carter AFB 4-bbl, no modifications other than the >>pressure box. >> >> Bill > >Again thanks to everyone that have replied (too many to answer back >individually), I can see I have a lot of work to do. >> >> >>I'm in the process of plumbing the fuel system for my Fiat FI conversion. I >ran across a term in the >>archives I'm not familiar with concerning making steel fuel lines: double >flare. Can someone explain >>what a double flare is and how to do it? >> >>Thanks in advance, >> >>Bill Shaw >Good to see someone else working on a Fiat. Double flare is making the little >lump on the end of the fuel line. A normal flare gives you a funnel shaped end, >a double flare brings the flared out part back in again to produce a little lump >(or ring) around the pipe. > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 18:43:30 -0700 (PDT) >From: Orin Eman >Subject: Re: pinout/applications > >> I have 2 computers that are for a BOSCH KE- >> Jetronic system. The numbers that I can find >> are 0-280-800-104(105)/811-906-264 and the other > >Audi 4000, 1983 on. This may be K-Jetronic, >the database was unclear. > >> computer has 0-280-800-123/811-906-264-C. I > >Audi 4000/80, 1983 on. Seems like it was used on >the KX, JT and JN engines. This part is superceded >by 811 906 264 D. > >You'd have to buy the Audi 4000 manuals. >An expensive proposition. > >The above are a few applications that I saw with >a quick look at an Audi parts database. There are >probably more. > >Orin. > >------------------------------ > >End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #440 >***************************** > >To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: > > subscribe diy_efi-digest > >in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. > >A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to >subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command > above with "diy_efi". > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:30:53 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #440 Yes, the box is a good way to pressurize everything on the carb and yes the fuel pump must reference pressure so fuel pressure remains a constant above boost but the carb will still go lean as boost comes up because it cannot compensate for the increased air density under boost. Gary Derian > Subject: Re: Supercharged carb set ups > > > Just a mention. Studebaker used blow through carbs on it's > > supercharged V8s in the 50s and 60s. The trick they used was to > > builda pressure box around the whole carb, avoiding the problem of > > reduced fuel flow by pressurizing the bowl to boost pressure. The metering > > can then be kept consistant. > > They used a regular Carter AFB 4-bbl, no modifications other than the > > pressure box. > > Almost. If you look at the top of an ordinary mechanical fuel pump, you > will see a small hole in the cover. This is the pressure reference for > the pump. Studebaker added a line from here to the blower output so that > fuel pressure rose with boost. In case of a ruptured diaphragm in the > pump, this would cause the crankcase to be pumped full of gasoline. > > - -- > Robert W. Hughes (Bob) > BackYard Engineering > Houston, Texas > rwhughe@xxx.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:42:23 -0700 From: "Bob Huish " Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #437 On 28 Jul 99, at 15:00, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: > > Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 11:44:33 -0700 > From: "Buchholz, Steven" > Subject: RE: Some efi: carby/super charger setup > > > With the list in digest mode it seems the mail has really slowed down. > > Anyway, I'd appreciate if someone has a solution for this minor > > inconvenience. I have finally managed to get my Fiat 850, with the MR2 > > supercharger on it, running. Currently its using the original carby in a > > blow through configuration (the setup is crap, but will have to do for > > the time being). With the whole carby being pressurised there is enough > > fuel pressure in the electric pump to make the car idle, however I'm > > sure as the pressure builds up the fuel pump runs out of steam. What is > > the solution? > > > > Do you use a high pressure efi pump with a 0.5bar regulator, > > vacuum/boost compensated to the inlet manifold, so the fuel pressure is > > always 0.5bar above boost level ? > > > > What about the float. The carby currently uses a soldered brass float, > > will it be strong enough to withstand say 20psi of boost ? Or will I > > need to fill it with something non collapsable ? > > > > What about the needle and seat, will there be any problems here ? > > > ... by no means would I consider myself to be an expert on carburetted > systems ... but there is one issue that seems quite apparent to me. The > float bowl of the carb is running in atmospheric pressure, so as you > increase carb inlet pressure above atmospheric it sure seems to me that > you're going to start pushing fuel (& even air) back into the bowl. I > don't know how you're going to be able to work around this pretty > fundamental issue. The carb is trying to meter fuel using Bernoulli's > principle, so pressurizing the bowl would probably cause other problems. > > I wouldn't worry about the float collapsing under pressure, but it might > tend to sink a bit lower in the fuel when the bowl is pressurized. You > would also need to have a fuel pump that was capable of overcoming the > pressure in the bowl as well ... > > The simplest solution I can come up with would be to replace the carb with > some sort of TBI unit ... but I don't have any suggestions as to the best > source of such a system for a blown Fiat ... > > I know Smokey Yunick had a system where he put a turbocharger in front of > a carb way back in the early 70s. He may have had a specially made carb > though ... I know he had some funny name for it ... what was it ... > "homogenizer" ???? You may want to check back through Popular Mechanics > ... > HTH! > Steve Buchholz > San Jose, CA (USA) > Back in the dark ages (late 50's) we would box the carb and pressurize the whole unit, which fooled the carb into believing it was working @xxx. Solved our float and gasket blowout problems. A line from the box to the pressure regulator aligned the fuel pressure to the boost levels. CudaBob [Cuda65} Angels Camp, California cudabob@xxx.com ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #441 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".