DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, October 13 1999 Volume 04 : Number 577 In this issue: Chrysler IC's in ECU RX-7 EFI system More RX7 info... Outboard engines are FI???? Wow!! and how ! Outboard engines are FI???? Wow!! and how ! engine idling at a high RPM engine idling at a high RPM Map vented to Atmosphere ??? Re: marine engine FI See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:45:30 EDT From: JECFL98@xxx.com Subject: Chrysler IC's in ECU I have a 85 Chrysler K-car, I looking for information on the IC's that are in the ECU The IC's are : Motorola SC88352CP CPU Motorola SC87313CP Port Expander ? ?? +B8432 RAM ? ?? 4289473 driver IC's Any info about mid 80's chrysler ECU internal workings will be helpfull. I see alot about Ford and GM, but nothing yet on Chrysler. Please respond to JECFL98@xxx.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:53:03 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Comai Subject: RX-7 EFI system My friend has an RX-7 (early '90s pretty much standard equipped I believe) which is running fairly rich. I haven't looked at it yet but I'm going to help him troubleshoot it later this week. Does mazada use a similar system to GM? Im thinking it's pretty different .. anyway can anyone give me any advice to troubleshoot it, or insight into how Mazda setup their sytem on their rotary motor? I'm guessing it's an an o2 sensor but I'm not expecting it to be that simple. Mike Comai ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:08:35 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Comai Subject: More RX7 info... I got some more info on the RX7 I mentioned in my previous email ... it's an '88 Mazda RX-7 Turbo II, Model 13B of the motor, 5-speed manual. Any info would help, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 02:55:42 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Subject: Outboard engines are FI???? Wow!! and how ! Hi Ade etal, Not only are the newer (larger) outboards injected but the two systems in use are really very sophisticated compared to your average passenger vehicle. The "small" engine system is by Fichtel & Sachs (they also make clutch components for Ferrari F1) this is used on engines up to 180 - 200 hp. The "big" engine system is by the Australian company Sarich Technologies (famous for their 2 stroke air/fuel injection car engines). The Sarich system has a special injector that injects both fuel and a proportion of the air in an effort to enable very complete combustion. The Clean Air Research Board is responsible for the Legislation that forced the big 4 to go full on high tech. If not for the sophisticated fuel/ignition systems the outcome would have been 4 stroke outboards with c/v carbys. This is still the most likely outcome for the smaller engines (below 50 hp) as the power to weight is less of a concern to fisherpeople than ski/race types. And the system cost is of more concern to the manufacturers. As far as sea water is concerned please see epoxy resin encapsulation as the perfect solution. "No sir we can't repair the unit you will need to buy a new one." Regards Phil Injec Racing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 02:55:42 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Subject: Outboard engines are FI???? Wow!! and how ! Hi Ade etal, Not only are the newer (larger) outboards injected but the two systems in use are really very sophisticated compared to your average passenger vehicle. The "small" engine system is by Fichtel & Sachs (they also make clutch components for Ferrari F1) this is used on engines up to 180 - 200 hp. The "big" engine system is by the Australian company Sarich Technologies (famous for their 2 stroke air/fuel injection car engines). The Sarich system has a special injector that injects both fuel and a proportion of the air in an effort to enable very complete combustion. The Clean Air Research Board is responsible for the Legislation that forced the big 4 to go full on high tech. If not for the sophisticated fuel/ignition systems the outcome would have been 4 stroke outboards with c/v carbys. This is still the most likely outcome for the smaller engines (below 50 hp) as the power to weight is less of a concern to fisherpeople than ski/race types. And the system cost is of more concern to the manufacturers. As far as sea water is concerned please see epoxy resin encapsulation as the perfect solution. "No sir we can't repair the unit you will need to buy a new one." Regards Phil Injec Racing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 04:46:51 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Subject: engine idling at a high RPM Hi John et al, > An engine idling at a high RPM because it was tuned at sea level > but tested at 5000' ASL would be sent to the shop where the > engine would be adjusted to pass the tests at that altitude. An engine that was idling at more than 1% above the factory specification has one of the following problems. 1. Air leak inlet manifold 2. Stuck idle speed control device. 3. Dead ECU output to ISC 4. Idle air bleed open so far ISC closed fully can't compensate 5. ECU confused about idle set point or rpm reading error 6. Faulty water temp reading high (ECU mode overtemp) It's very hard to achieve closed loop fuel control at idle if you don't pre light the cat. > The tests are done at idle while the O2 sensor is in closed > loop mode. A rich mixture at Full Torque RPM is never tested > for and most... The certification test are conducted using chassis dynos with inertia correction and continuos gas sampling with "bagging" and post test analysis on a second by second and total mass pollutants per vehicle mass per distance driven. The car is first "soaked" at 24 deg C for 24 hours and then positioned on the dyno. A techie drives the vehicle trying to keep a dot on a monitor between two snaky lines which are a speed demand. An error of 1.5% in speed is an abort test and resoak. (big career no-no) Total driving time for both city and highway test are 54 minutes for the "New York" test. This simulates 27 minutes of really ugly stop start traffic with brief burst up to 92 km/hr. Some of the braking requires two feet on the pedal ! Full throttle is used for about 1/3 of lower powered vehicles and at some stages the autos kick down a gear or two. As it is speed dependent big engine light cars do quite well until the weight is factored in for grams/kg/km results. The Highway cycle is not a pollution issue it is for economy comparisons. The 92 km/hr is the break point for "lean cruise". Most OEM's choose 1.5 min above 95 km/hr and then drop out of closed loop and head for Lambda 1.1 or 16.17:1 A/F ratio. This gives best fuel economy and of course max. NOX production. The cat goes out completely and won't be relit until you get off the freeway. So your inter city trip could easily be 5% closed loop and the rest lean and dirty. Puts the "Magic" of Closed Loop and the CAT into some real world perspective. Regards Phil Injec Racing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 04:46:51 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Subject: engine idling at a high RPM Hi John et al, > An engine idling at a high RPM because it was tuned at sea level > but tested at 5000' ASL would be sent to the shop where the > engine would be adjusted to pass the tests at that altitude. An engine that was idling at more than 1% above the factory specification has one of the following problems. 1. Air leak inlet manifold 2. Stuck idle speed control device. 3. Dead ECU output to ISC 4. Idle air bleed open so far ISC closed fully can't compensate 5. ECU confused about idle set point or rpm reading error 6. Faulty water temp reading high (ECU mode overtemp) It's very hard to achieve closed loop fuel control at idle if you don't pre light the cat. > The tests are done at idle while the O2 sensor is in closed > loop mode. A rich mixture at Full Torque RPM is never tested > for and most... The certification test are conducted using chassis dynos with inertia correction and continuos gas sampling with "bagging" and post test analysis on a second by second and total mass pollutants per vehicle mass per distance driven. The car is first "soaked" at 24 deg C for 24 hours and then positioned on the dyno. A techie drives the vehicle trying to keep a dot on a monitor between two snaky lines which are a speed demand. An error of 1.5% in speed is an abort test and resoak. (big career no-no) Total driving time for both city and highway test are 54 minutes for the "New York" test. This simulates 27 minutes of really ugly stop start traffic with brief burst up to 92 km/hr. Some of the braking requires two feet on the pedal ! Full throttle is used for about 1/3 of lower powered vehicles and at some stages the autos kick down a gear or two. As it is speed dependent big engine light cars do quite well until the weight is factored in for grams/kg/km results. The Highway cycle is not a pollution issue it is for economy comparisons. The 92 km/hr is the break point for "lean cruise". Most OEM's choose 1.5 min above 95 km/hr and then drop out of closed loop and head for Lambda 1.1 or 16.17:1 A/F ratio. This gives best fuel economy and of course max. NOX production. The cat goes out completely and won't be relit until you get off the freeway. So your inter city trip could easily be 5% closed loop and the rest lean and dirty. Puts the "Magic" of Closed Loop and the CAT into some real world perspective. Regards Phil Injec Racing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:29:10 +1000 From: Phil Lamovie Subject: Map vented to Atmosphere ??? Hi Laura & Neil, > Surely engine vacuum is relative to the ambient atmospheric > pressure. And as the MAP sensor is vented to atmosphere it will > have a fair degree of self correction for altitude. Lets set the record absolutely. Absolute means what it says. It is a barometer in every sense. It has an integral nitrogen bubble as its reference and it's output is set to read 101.3 kPa as the P of STP. It is not a differential sensor. Thus it is ALWAYS reading the manifold pressure relative to ABSOLUTE pressure. Air flow meters are major profit centres for auto manufacturers. Some times they make more profit on the AFM replacement than the original car sale. Engine vacuum is controlled by the butterfly and thus is relative to it's position and the load on the engine. Phil Injec Racing ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 09:02:02 +0200 From: nhoj@xxx.se Subject: Re: marine engine FI >> At 05:00 11/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >> >Or - altitude could be faked out by reading the MAP while the engine is >> >stopped. Then you could account for it. Of course this assumes that the >> >car is stopped every once in awhile (probbaly a reasonable thing). I know >> >for a fact that some outboard marine engine controllers do this. > >Marine FI can probably get away with this, unless you run your boat >down (or up) the side of a mountain with the engine running. >"Over the falls," perhaps :-) ? > >> Outboard engines are FI???? Wow!! Things have changed in the past 5 years. >> Why would they do this? Manufacturers are still putting ECUs in the engine >> bay of cars. This is a pretty nasty place for electronics. I can see the >> reason for putting FI in cars as it improves fuel ecconomy and power along >> with controling the fuel so that it doesn't clog the CAT. But why on a >> small outboard engine? There have been fuel injected outboard engines for a long time. However, EFI 2-strokes have been available only in the high power segment, starting around 200hp, and primarily from Mercury. >>Surely you would want to keep the thing as simple as >> possible using NO electronics as Sea water isn't electronics freindly by >> any means. It is difficult to get enough low and midrange power out of a highly tuned 2-stroke engine using carbs. With EFI that problem decreases significantly. Remember that a boat needs good power at low revs to get on plane, and lots of power at high revs to be fast... >The technology employed to fix this is DFI; injecting fuel directly >into the cylinder, after the piston has risen enough to close the >exhaust port. As I recall, this is not really true; at high RPMs injection takes place before the exhaust port closes. Thus, at wide open throttle, the efficieny of DFI outboards gets close to the efficieny of manifold injected or carbed outboards. Note that two-stroke outboards are pretty efficient in their tuned RPM range. A problem that limits fuel efficiency of DFIs more than older outboards, IMHO, is that the limited cooling of the pistons forces DFIs to run rather rich. >Mercury uses a system they licensed from Orbital (of >Australia), OMC bought a company named Ficht (of Germany), and Yamaha >has developed their own. As I recall, Ficht uses a special injector >that develops about 450psi, More like 200, IIRC. Also, Ficht's solenoid driven injector is not very precise; the pressure varies a lot. >Orbital uses ~90psi mixed with a blast of >compressed air, Note that compressed air contains far more energy than pressurized fuel, which means that Orbital gets by with a far lower pressure. Thus, they avoid a few of the drawbacks of DFI. >and Yamaha uses ~700psi. Yamaha's new offerings are interesting, because they designed a completely new engine for the DFI system, rather than retrofitting it on an existing construction. >I haven't looked at Yamaha's web site; they may not have a writeup >yet, as I don't think they've shipped yet. There is a writeup floating around, but it says "Not for publication"... >Curiously, while DFI reduces oil consumption, it doesn't really >address the oil-emission question. DFI as such sure does; reduced consumption leads to lower emmissions, after all. Hower, due to technical problems, some current DFIs, and particularly Mercury's, tend to use surprising quantities of oil. >Apparently EPA agrees this is not a >major pollution issue at this time. Manufactures are quick to tout the >reduced fuel consumption of DFI, and many satisfied customers agree >it's real. And quite a few customers are on their second, third or fourth power head on warranty... OMC's Ficht has been worse off than Mercury, in this respect. (Mercury found unexpected problems and quietly pulled back their first generation of DFI's, and came back with an improved design and a new name. OMC on the other hand, being somewhat financially challenged, let their customers do the testing for them, to the misfortune of a whole lot of people. OMC also had an Orbital license, and built but never sold an engine almost identical to Mercury's original DFI, by the way) Regards, John Hornkvist ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #577 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".