DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, October 26 1999 Volume 04 : Number 604 In this issue: Source for SES or Check engine light Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #602 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #603 Re: TBI, TPI, Radical Engines, (Todd) Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #603 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #602 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #602 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:36:56 -0700 From: lmaggi - Larry Maggio Subject: Source for SES or Check engine light Im looking for a decent check engine light.... something a little more aesthetically pleasing than your basic radio shack bulb. Any ideas? Thanks, Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 06:51:57 -0700 From: Laura & Neil Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #602 > Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 07:56:52 PDT > From: "David Sagers" > Subject: Converting a Performer manifold and TBI to TPI... > > Steve > > > If you are really good at drilling you can make jig to hold your manifold > and drill it for injectors, then either weld or epoxy in the bungs to hold > the injectors. Force Fuel Injection http://force-efi.com/ sells these or > you can pay to have Force make the conversion for you, about $600. One > thing to consider is that if you are going to use a solid fuel rail all of > you injectors must be at the same angle and at the same height. If you look > at the runners on a Performer, or any other dual plane intake, intake you'll > notice that runners next to the head are various heights. Consider a > Edelbrock Torquer intake as all the runners next to the head are about the > same height. Even though the Torquer is a mid range RPM intake, the EFI > will really tame it down and you'll have some very strong low end power and > throttle response. About a year ago I read an article in a 4 wheel magazine > that described using a Torquer converted to EFI on a rock crawling jeep. > The bottom end power was very strong as the EFI does not depend on air flow > to draw the fuel out of the carb. If you use the Performer, consider making > your ow fuel rails/lines out of some high pressure fuel line. Another > option is something I saw in the PAW catalog. I think it was a Weiand > intake that is made to be converted to EFI. It has the pads and the fuel > rail towers cast in and would save you a bunch of time and money. You'd > still need to drill and weld the injector bungs. Cost is about $250 from > PAW. > I had to think about this for a minute. If you are converting a performer manifold designed to work wet, with a carb, to dry PFI, will it still have the same torque characteristics?. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 09:55:19 EDT From: Bard382@xxx.com Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #603 For the 97 5.8L try the Ford Motorsports catalogue, they have a kit for street rods that may be what you want. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 10:01:12 -0700 From: "Todd....!!" Subject: Re: TBI, TPI, Radical Engines, (Todd) Have a question that may be a bit tangent to the main topic goal of this list but here goes anywho... Anyone know the TENSILE, SHEAR, and COMPRESSION strength of an average forged connecting rod? Say for a big block? This is for a twin turbo B.B. EFI project.... for calculating the limit of torque application to the rod, rod cap, and rod bolts before failure... Piston strength specs are already acquired. Cyl wall strength (thickness and material makeup) is last on the list to calc out. Will be using minimum strength spec, of course, to be safe rather than sorry when it comes down to the nitty gritty(REAL LIFE HAMMER TIME)... Thnx for any input!! Sincerely!, Todd.... P.S. - FRED B., what caused your T.T. EFI B.B. Mopar B block(Stroker 400 - - 4.34? bore X 3.75 stroke) to expire? I don't remember the specifics? Was it just a lean condition causing critical predetonation leading to holes in the pistons or cracked rings? or did ya actually throw(i.e. break!?) a forged Mopar connecting rod? or what? Just awonderin..... - ----------- Frederic Breitwieser wrote: > > Todd and others interested in long rambling messages :) > > Well, you said "Money is the issue here", which I'd take to mean "not to > expensive". It all depends on what you consider expensive, and do you > factor in your time to make it work. > > Before I go through all this, I will say that its CHEAPER and FASTER to > skip EFI and run your engine (at least as we discussed it) with a > turbo'd predator carb, or a suitable well-adjusted Holley, etc. Out of > the box you produce power, its easy(er) to fabricate parts, and a > screwdriver can adjust things to make it run right. > > If you are dead set on EFI, you might consider the Holley or Edelbrock > TBI system upon your own manifold, because mechanically its easier to > attach to your twin-turbo mopar stroker engine. Trust me on that one > :) Almost plug and play, and the aftermarket EFI stuff is adjustable > with kludgy software that gives you a basic map to start the engine > with. From there you can tweek until your fingertips are sore. If you > insist on going the TPI GM ECM fangle on your twin turbo mopar stroker, > consider that a junkyard EFI system might run you about 300-350 bucks by > the time you include research, gaskets, parts, wiring changes, > documentation, dyno test time, gas, travel, etc. TBI or not. How much > is your time worth, and will you absolutely succeed? True, Bruce and > the Cone Shaped Hat Committee have done tremendous research and > documented tons of stuff, TONS! But still, its their work, you can't > read their minds, and are ya gonna get it right the first time? With > twin-turbos like we've been talking offline? On a Mopar stroker > engine? Maybe, maybe not. There are a lot of variables here. Its a > lot more difficult than it seems, so I found out. While I didn't expect > it to be a "snap", it wasn't that far from "this sucks and I wanna kick > the wall 200 times" either! > > The main advantage of the Holley 4D/4DI and other EFI systems of any > flavour, is the likelihood of it working (more or less) out of the box > is singificantly higher than with a junkyard system, unless its a > straight swap - meaning Chevy TBI from a 350cid to a carb'd 350cid > engine, tossing the carb of course. The more intricate you make your > conversion, the more time, more dollars, and more screaming it will take > to get it going. You're doing what we did, twin turbo EFI mopar stroker > "B" block, so its not really a straight swap :) No my friend, not at > all :) I've outlined below more or less what it cost me. There were > many hours spent headscratching as well as calling suppliers and chasing > parts and details, which I did not include below. Also, a lot of > incidentals listed below I lumped together, like "sandblast intake" also > means "sandblast throttle bodies, intake, bungs, brackets, etc". Didn't > see the need to make a 5000 line post when in fact a 4000 line post > would do ::smile:: > > Anyhoo... > > For our SyTy ECM (7749) to Mopar twin-turbo, we spent an enormous amount > of time on the project, didn't get it running right, and still blew it > up. Take II coming soon with the 400cid mopar "B", non stroked, non > turbo'd to start. Hours are manhours, not necessarily my own. "Expert" > friends (at least compared to me) were very much involved. Costs > indicate something was purchased, either the item itself, or maybe > gasket goo, brackets, bolts, etc. All the blockwork and machining was > done at the shop, by my friends, who have a clue and did me a HUGE > favor. Expect machining costs if your engine needs it and you don't > have access to friends with a lot of expensive engine machining toys > sitting around. I know a ton of stuff is missing, as usual, half my > notes are here and half my notes are floating around the body shop. If > you work full time, consider that you may or may not have oh, about 15 > hours a week to mess around with this? That would be about 15-16 weeks > from start to finish, and if you had the luck we had, it won't run, but > blow up instead ::grin:: Hopefully for you, you won't have access to a > free defective dyno with moronic operator (me!). > > Totals EFI 85 hours $ 380 > Totals Non-EFI 154 hours $2015 > TOTALS ALL 239 hours $2395 > > <--- non-interested parties of details press delete here ---> > > Step 1. - Research and Part Collection > ----------------------------------------------------- > Research 383/400 stroker 25 hours $ 0 > Obtain 383 engine 7 hours $ 350 > Obtain Streetmaster 383 Intake 2 hours $ 25 > Determine ECM Choices 5 hours $ 0 > Research Wiring Harness Issue 11 hours $ 0 > Pull 1227749 out of 87 olds 1 hour $ 0 > Pull Wiring Harness from same 3 hours $ 0 > Pull GM Sensors, two throttles 2 hours $ 0 > Buy Harness & ECM 0 hours $ 75 > Buy Sensors/Throttles 0 hours $ 50 > Pull Ford Injectors (2 tbirds) 1 hours $ 0 > Buy Injectors 0 hours $ 60 > ----------------------------------------------------- > TOTALS STEP 1 57 hours $ 560 > > Step 2. - EFI Configuration > ----------------------------------------------------- > Rewire wiring harness for syty 20 hours $ 0 > Stick in Ford Inj Connectors 2 hours $ 0 > Buy Aluminum Rod for Inj Bungs 1 hours $ 25 > Buy www.durafix.com 0 hours $ 35 > Mill Intake for Inj Bungs 2 hours $ 0 > Test fit inj bungs, repeat above 1 hours $ 0 > Measure, make, test fuel rails 4 hours $ 0 > Milling machine bit 0 hours $ 15 > Braze inj bungs, fuel rails 4 hours $ 0 > Sandblast intake w/bungs 1 hours $ 20 > Paint aluminum intake 1 hours $ 15 > ----------------------------------------------------- > TOTALS STEP 2 36 hours $ 110 > > Step 3. - Engine Assembly > ----------------------------------------------------- > Disassemble Engine 3 hours $ 0 > All Block Machine Work 11 hours $ 0 > Port Heads 10 hours $ 0 > Two dremel tips 0 hours $ 10 > Turn Down 440 crank 4 hours $ 0 > Buy 440 rods (used) 9 hours $ 120 > Wiseco Pistons (measure/buy) 5 hours $ 640 > New Oil Pump, etc 1 hours $ 135 > RV Cam 0 hours $ 80 > New Bearings, etc 2 hours $ 80 > Install Cam, assemble engine 12 hours $ 0 > Gasket Set 0 hours $ 65 > ----------------------------------------------------- > TOTALS STEP 3 48 hours $1130 > > Step 4 - Turbocharging > ----------------------------------------------------- > Pull Two TO3 turbos 3 hours $ 150 > Fabricate Stainless Headers 22 hours $ 120 > Fabricate Intake Plenum 5 hours $ 35 > Pull Volvo Intercooler 1 hours $ 40 > Intercooler into Plenum 3 hours $ 0 > Igloo cooler, bilge pump, hoses 3 hours $ 0 > Rebuild Turbos 11 hours $ 120 > ----------------------------------------------------- > TOTALS STEP 4 48 hours $ 465 > > Step 5. - Final Stages, Testing > ----------------------------------------------------- > Assemble Intake to Engine 1 hours $ 0 > Drive to Dyno location 2 hours $ 10 > Mount Engine on Dyno 1 hours $ 0 > Fill Dyno Fuel Tank 0 hours $ 45 > Test Dyno Operations 1 hours $ 0 > Install headers/turbos/hoses 2 hours $ 0 > Attach wiring harness & sensors 5 hours $ 50 > Test 1 (no start) 1 hours $ 0 > Test 2 (no start) 1 hours $ 0 > Test 3 (sputter) 1 hours $ 0 > Play with Sy/Ty Code 3 hours $ 0 > Test 4 (worse sputter) 1 hours $ 0 > Replace Dyno Throttle cbl 1 hours $ 0 > Test 5 (start, runs rough) 1 hours $ 0 > Install Wieland tunnel Ram 1 hours $ 0 > Install two Predator carbs 1 hours $ 0 > Fabricate "Y" throttle cbl 1 hours $ 0 > Fabricate new Plenum 4 hours $ 25 > Install, test new plenum 1 hours $ 0 > Test 6 1 hours $ 0 > Run motor 1900 RPM 2 hours $ 0 > Replace weiland/carbs w/efi 3 hours $ 0 > Test 7 (runs rough) 1 hours $ 0 > Play with Sy/Ty Code 3 hours $ 0 > Test 8 (runs rough) 1 hours $ 0 > Play with Sy/Ty Code 3 hours $ 0 > Test 9 (runs rough) 1 hours $ 0 > Play with Sy/Ty Code 3 hours $ 0 > Install Wieland tunnel Ram 1 hours $ 0 > Install two Predator carbs 1 hours $ 0 > FULL WOT TEST 1 hours $ 0 > ----------------------------------------------------- > TOTALS STEP 5 50 hours $ 130 > > Totals EFI 85 hours $ 380 > Totals Non-EFI 154 hours $2015 > TOTALS ALL 239 hours $2395 > > -- > > Frederic Breitwieser > Xephic Technology > 769 Sylvan Ave #9 > Bridgeport CT 06606 > > Tele: (203) 372-2707 > Fax: (603) 372-1147 > Web: http://xephic.dynip.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 14:17:47 +0000 From: Ned Williams Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #603 Frederic wrote Drilling and milling an intake is much easier than I thought, you can see my mopar equivilent at http://xephic.dynip.com/dodge/383intake.htm. There is nothing stopping you from doing this to almost any intake at all. I found aluminum to be easier to machine with a drill press. - ----------- Frederic I have been comtemplating this exact procedure much as you seem to have done it, I have one questions though, How did you get the Injector bungs lined up perfectyly?(or did you) the fab guys over at holley seem to express this as absolutly critical. Also I am curious if you have any url's for your fuel rails as I am have been pondering my rail design Ned Williams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:34:12 +0100 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #602 At 15:00 25/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >Backfires (actually afterburn - fire in the exhaust) is okay. Especially >in a racing series. Scare your opponents, amaze your friends. World rally cars (4 wheel drive, turbo charged) retard the ignition so much on overrun that it actually fires on the exhaust stroke with the valve open. This helps to keep the lag down by keeping the turbo spinning. You cannot do THAT with a normal Dizzy system!! >The bad news is that either ignition is enough on its own to ignite the >fuel and allow you to overrev the engine. You have to cut both ignition >systems. Anyway, why do you need a rev limiter? The redline on the RX-7 >is only there to give some color to the tachometer. I have overrevved my >1st generation RX-7 all the way to 8500 RPM without damage. (don't make a >habit of that. :} ) Agreed you would be better off with a shift light. This is a light on the dash which comes on at a predetermined point. The light should be nice and bright so you can see it easily with your periferal vision. Set the light to come on at the point where you want to change gear. Ade ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 12:34:12 +0100 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V4 #602 At 15:00 25/10/99 -0400, DIY_EFI Digest wrote: >Backfires (actually afterburn - fire in the exhaust) is okay. Especially >in a racing series. Scare your opponents, amaze your friends. World rally cars (4 wheel drive, turbo charged) retard the ignition so much on overrun that it actually fires on the exhaust stroke with the valve open. This helps to keep the lag down by keeping the turbo spinning. You cannot do THAT with a normal Dizzy system!! >The bad news is that either ignition is enough on its own to ignite the >fuel and allow you to overrev the engine. You have to cut both ignition >systems. Anyway, why do you need a rev limiter? The redline on the RX-7 >is only there to give some color to the tachometer. I have overrevved my >1st generation RX-7 all the way to 8500 RPM without damage. (don't make a >habit of that. :} ) Agreed you would be better off with a shift light. This is a light on the dash which comes on at a predetermined point. The light should be nice and bright so you can see it easily with your periferal vision. Set the light to come on at the point where you want to change gear. Ade ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V4 #604 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".