DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, January 29 2000 Volume 05 : Number 043 In this issue: GM 4-pin module connections? Re: GM 4-pin module connections? Lots of snips from BBC with 160 lb injectors Non-Cam Valves Re: 105-160 #/Hr Low Impedance P&H Port Injectors Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:54:04 -0600 From: "Simon Bosworth" Subject: GM 4-pin module connections? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BF69D1.CFBA2EF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anyone tell me which pins of a GM 4-pin HEI ignition module connect = to coil and which to the trigger? =20 Thanks, Simon - ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BF69D1.CFBA2EF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Can anyone tell me which pins of a GM = 4-pin HEI=20 ignition module connect to coil and which to the trigger? =

Thanks,

Simon

- ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BF69D1.CFBA2EF0-- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 23:24:32 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: GM 4-pin module connections? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_014F_01BF69E6.D4E909E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The large 2 on the one side are power, and coil ground, the two = smaller pins are for the pick up Grumpy Can anyone tell me which pins of a GM 4-pin HEI ignition module = connect to coil and which to the trigger? =20 Thanks, Simon - ------=_NextPart_000_014F_01BF69E6.D4E909E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The large 2 on the one side are power, = and coil=20 ground, the two smaller pins are for the pick up Grumpy

Can anyone tell me which pins of a GM = 4-pin HEI=20 ignition module connect to coil and which to the trigger? =

Thanks,

Simon

- ------=_NextPart_000_014F_01BF69E6.D4E909E0-- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 00:17:34 -0800 From: Carl Summers Subject: Lots of snips from BBC with 160 lb injectors Hi, Maybe some of us have forgotten our math??? 160lb x 8 cyl / .5 bsfc = 2560HP....so lets forget about math and try some real world...I have programmed an Autronics box with 8, 96 lb injectors twin turbo's water/air intercooler and ran out of injector at 1639HP at 13.1:1 AFR at 5500 rpm so I'm a little lost on why you need bigger than the 80's to make 1000hp unless you are planning on something I'm unaware of...This was gasoline...were you planning on Alcohol???? BTW the Autronics is a great box with great software, the only thing it could use is some better AE stuff....Lost in Wonderland?????? - -Carl Summers - - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- | > You are building a what?. 105 injectors?. | > To get anywhere near an idle would take P+Hs | > How big of motor is this?. | | 460 inch Big Block Chevy, twin turbo, liquid/air intercooler. 800 HP @ | 6000 RPM currently, requires only 80 lb/hr. However, it is well within | reason for this setup to put out 1000 - 1100 HP at 6500 RPM, requiring 105 | lbs/hr. I don't think it is such a good idea to install injectors | sufficient for current, unmodified, output levels, when I can simply turn | up the boost, and make some other adjustments, to add HP. I want a | reasonable amount of overhead to add HP over what I've already got. | | > Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in | the | > archives | | Thanks. That's what I'd heard. | | > Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to | brand, | > and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice | if | > some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs | pressure. | | Can you recommend any mfg's that make a better product than others? | | - Clay | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - -- | To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) | in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org | - - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:09:10 -0500 From: "Bruce Plecan" Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors Is this a boat or car?. If a car I'd really think about staged injectors. That way use you 80 for HO, and add a set of 30s for idle cruise. | 460 inch Big Block Chevy, twin turbo, liquid/air intercooler. 800 HP @ | 6000 RPM currently, requires only 80 lb/hr. However, it is well within | reason for this setup to put out 1000 - 1100 HP at 6500 RPM, requiring 105 | lbs/hr. I don't think it is such a good idea to install injectors | sufficient for current, unmodified, output levels, when I can simply turn | up the boost, and make some other adjustments, to add HP. I want a | reasonable amount of overhead to add HP over what I've already got. | > Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in | the archives | Thanks. That's what I'd heard. | > Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to | brand, | > and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice | if | > some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs | pressure. | Can you recommend any mfg's that make a better product than others? That's why I was asking if anyone had charts to share. I'd need to see more to be able to compare them to make any recommendations. The way I see it, for really hi HP applications, use like an oem size injector, and use some others for when the HP goes crazy, and/or a rising rate fuel pressure regulator (thou, not for you). | - Clay - - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:33:11 -0800 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: 105-160 #/Hr Low Impedance P&H Port Injectors Clay, Large injectors, on a BBC engine, are not quite as problematic as they are often made to sound. Lots of wive's tales, but you can ignore most of them, if you take the right precautions............. First, assuming that you intend port injection for your BBC project and that your BBC is to be artificially aspirated, your 105 #/Hr injector benchmark tells me that you are expecting roughly 1100'ish max HP on gasoline? If this is not the case, then please clearly state your assumptions and/or intended fuel. You will find that large'ish port style fuel injectors (typically beyond 50-70 #/Hr) are all of the low impedance variety regardless of manufacturerer, meaning that they are typically less than 4 ohms impedance each and that they will require an individual peak & hold current driver (typically 4/1 amp) for proper dynamic operation. This is pretty much a universal statement, no matter whether you examine large injectors from Bosch, Siemens, Rochester, etc. "Low Impedance" and "Peak & Hold" really describe the same end result, and are meant to denote that the injectors must be individually switched via a current controlled driver as opposed to the more common (cheaper) saturated voltage switch driver. The combination of an ECU current driver, together with the electromagnetics built into a typical low impedance injector/coil assembly, attempts to drive the injector harder & faster than normal in order to effectively extend both the low and high pulse width flow response of the injector. The result is a "wider" dynamic performance envelope for the injector(s). This translates into both a superior idle and more effective top-end liquid flow (relatively speaking). The DIY & GMECM archives contain a lot of interesting reading on this topic, if you seek more knowledge. When you contemplate the injector flow ranges that you have described, there are really only two manufacturers to consider 1) Rochester '96s [aka MSD, Holley, and others], and of course 2) Bosch '160s. Personally, I would select the Bosch injectors for the following reasons: quality, cost, spray pattern, linearity, heat tolerance, batch tolerance, and availability. Remember, that the Bosch injectors (in particular the 160's that you have mentioned) have been, and still are, the mainstay of racing venues from Indy down to NHRA & IHRA and even weekend bracketeers. By virtue of production volumes, and popularity, the Bosch 160's are far more prevalent and sometimes more cost effective. The Rochester 96's are slightly more difficult to source, and are not as precise. Kinsler, and others, can feed your cravings for either flavour of injector. A bunch of Pro & Otherwise racers around here use the Bosch 160's, and are able to produce clean/stable/reasonable idles with a variety of ECU hardware and software packages. The trick is to control each of the large injectors via its own P&H driver and to use ECU software that intentionally encompasses wide dynamic injector ranges and firing schemes. You should personally discuss your injector thoughts with Electromotive, in order to determine the best software control strategy and selection (kinda surprised they did not want to sell you an injector set to match your application at the time of sale???). If you are interested, I can forward you photo images of both the Bosch '160 and the Rochester '96 injector spray patterns as photographed on my flow bench, during rated psig operation. As you will note, each is different and satisfies differing needs in terms of desired injector targeting and wall wetting parameters. In theory for multiport operation, you want to target the injector spray directly toward the backside of the intake valve face from 3-4 inches distance away. However, the physical dimensions of a BBC make this difficult/impossible. Practical theory reveals that if a person can somewhat incline the injector spray plume into the cylinder head runner tract, then the resultant distribution and effect should be okay. Good luck with your project, and remember that many of the injector and/or ECU companies often have "1-800" numbers. Don't feel bad about asking them a zillion questions. It's their dime.............. Walt. - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:43:32 -0700 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors >Is this a boat or car?. >If a car I'd really think about staged injectors. That way use you 80 for >HO, and add a set of 30s for idle cruise. > >| 460 inch Big Block Chevy, twin turbo, liquid/air intercooler. 800 HP @ >| 6000 RPM currently, requires only 80 lb/hr. However, it is well within >| reason for this setup to put out 1000 - 1100 HP at 6500 RPM, requiring 105 >| lbs/hr. I don't think it is such a good idea to install injectors >| sufficient for current, unmodified, output levels, when I can simply turn >| up the boost, and make some other adjustments, to add HP. I want a >| reasonable amount of overhead to add HP over what I've already got. > >| > Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in >| the archives >| Thanks. That's what I'd heard. >| > Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to >| brand, >| > and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice >| if >| > some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs >| pressure. >| Can you recommend any mfg's that make a better product than others? > >That's why I was asking if anyone had charts to share. I'd need to see more >to be able to compare them to make any recommendations. > The way I see it, for really hi HP applications, use like an oem size >injector, and use some others for when the HP goes crazy, and/or a rising >rate fuel pressure regulator (thou, not for you). > And--furthermore--ditch the Electromotive, and check out Autronics. There is a link to them on www.turbofast.com.au (Ray Hall). LOTS of the Autronics ecu's on engines like what you have, and they are MUCH better suited for doing what you will need to keep the thing together. Richard Lee, Lee Performance, in Lake Elsinore, CA also does lots of this sort of stuff, at least for boats. He deals the Autronics, but I doubt if for the best deal. Greg >| - Clay > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Anthony Buccellato >To: >Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 11:55 AM >Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors > > >| > You are building a what?. 105 injectors?. >| > To get anywhere near an idle would take P+Hs >| > How big of motor is this?. >| >| 460 inch Big Block Chevy, twin turbo, liquid/air intercooler. 800 HP @ >| 6000 RPM currently, requires only 80 lb/hr. However, it is well within >| reason for this setup to put out 1000 - 1100 HP at 6500 RPM, requiring 105 >| lbs/hr. I don't think it is such a good idea to install injectors >| sufficient for current, unmodified, output levels, when I can simply turn >| up the boost, and make some other adjustments, to add HP. I want a >| reasonable amount of overhead to add HP over what I've already got. >| >| > Yes, P+H, perfered cycling 1-5 msec, Sat 2-10msec. You can verify in >| the >| > archives >| >| Thanks. That's what I'd heard. >| >| > Yes, there is a day and night difference in flow rates from brand to >| brand, >| > and style to style. Kinsler can plot things out for you. Sure, be nice >| if >| > some folks would share their injector flow charts for time on vs >| pressure. >| >| Can you recommend any mfg's that make a better product than others? >| >| - Clay MSD fuel injection injectors (blueprinted Rochesters) are purported to work the best for this sort of stuff--supposedly have better dynamic range than the big Bosch stuff. You WILL need good dynamic range. I AM with Bruce on this, staged, 1/3 primary, 2/3 secondary is the best way to go. Greg - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 06:58:52 -0500 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Non-Cam Valves Hey Carl, > Has anybody ever had an idea to manufacture a cam less machine. Well I've > got that dream, maybe somebody has tried it already. Its been tried, somewhat unsuccessfully. The problem is as with all magnetics devices, is speed. Injectors don't do so well at 10K RPM, so a coil that moves a valve at the same engine speed would choke, unless the coils are huge. The problem is the mass of the valve - takes tremendous force to make it move and change direction abruptly. Pneumatics on the other hand, can be used, but its very complex to setup. I believe, maybe incorrectly, several F1 cars tried this over the years. Bruce's suggestion of combing the patent database is probably your best start. If one were to eliminate the steel valves, and use ceramics or composites to make the valve, and have a metal insert in the top of the shaft, the much lower mass would be easier to move for the valving events. Not sure if it would be light enough still, but its a start. Feel free to patent the idea :) - -- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology 769 Sylvan Ave #9 Bridgeport CT 06606 Tele: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 Web: http://xephic.dynip.com/ - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1988 00:32:15 +0100 From: "Espen Hilde" Subject: Re: 105-160 #/Hr Low Impedance P&H Port Injectors Hi! I tought the latest ting was to use high pressure injectors in racing? Kei Hin or something.... Espen - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1988 00:36:22 +0100 From: "Espen Hilde" Subject: Re: Peak and hold vs. saturated injectors Hi! Why not use the DIY aproch? Open up the bosch injector and grind the shim for longer pintle stroke and flow. Espen - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #43 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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