DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, February 1 2000 Volume 05 : Number 048 In this issue: Mopar heated O2 sensor question New member, programming under boost questions Re: Large P&H Port Injectors re: lots of snips from BBC with 160 lb injectors Re: water injection Re: Mopar heated O2 sensor question Re: water injection Camless Otto Cycle Engine Re: water injection Aspin engine Re: New member, programming under boost questions See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:40:46 -0500 From: Will McGonegal Subject: Mopar heated O2 sensor question I have a four wire heated O2 sensor from a Chrysler (p.n. 5233088). I believe that the heater inside it can be powered continuously by 12 volts. Does anyone know if this is not the case? Perhaps there is a more complex scheme for regulating the sensor temperature that I am not aware of (e.g.. measuring current and voltage into heater, calculating resistance, therefore knowing the temperature). I only have the sensor, not the car so I cannot monitor it while it is in use. I'd like to put it on putting it on a 4-stroke ice-race bike to be sure that I'm still running rich on these cold winter days. Thanks for any help Will - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 15:59:36 -0800 From: Dave Plummer Subject: New member, programming under boost questions Hi! I've spent a good deal of time reading the archives and pouring over PROM dumps, and I've got a few questions that I didn't find answers for. First, the scenario: '94 Corvette 350LT1 w/6psi Vortech ...and under construction: 396LT1 w/50# injectors, 12-15psi boost, 2 core intercooler My first goal, under the heading of "learn on the old motor first", is to eliminate the FMU and alter the spark tables to be better suited to the blown application. My big question is about the WOT Enrichment vs. RPM table. It's described in some places as specifying a desired AF ratio, in others as a percentage of extra fuel to add during WOT. Which is more accurate? How does the O2 sensor get figured into this blanket enrichment at WOT? My second question relates more specifically to accomodating boost. Since the VE tables are limited to 100%, what's the best way to program for boost? I'm thinking this: 1) In the RPM range where boost is present, in the 100kPa column, set VE to 100% 2) Get the extra fuel to accomodate the true >100% VE by upping the WOT enrichment table entries I can't really do #2 without understanding that table a little better, hence the original question. Any feedback on how I should go about programming the LT1 controller for boost would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Dave - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:27:08 -0800 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: Large P&H Port Injectors Hi Clay, At the time of your original post none of us knew exactly what your expected BBC power level was or even what type of fuel you intended to run, which is why I tried to outline to you what your proposed 105's would give you with "gasoline" and then asked you at the same time to expand upon your assumptions if they seemed to differ. In light of your subsequent posts, I agree that your application would be best suited by a roughly 80 #/Hr port injector (assuming a maximum 80% injector duty cycle and 0.6bsfc). You had mentioned the 160's in your original post which is why I had commented on them. 160's can be made to work quite well on very large displacement/power BBC's (several examples of which roam the tracks & streets around the southwest end of this province). But again, in light of your recent posts, I feel that the 160's are not for you! I am in the process of trying to gather together my old flowbench notes for you, as related to a series of four different larg'ish port injectors ranging from 75-160 #/Hr @xxx.0 bar, accompanied by photo images of the injectors in action. My photo scanner friend was tied-up today, so I'll try again tomorrow. As soon as I get everything ready I'll post a message to DIY and place a 'ZIP file in the incoming directory. The photos are from a hand held camera (can't afford stroboscopic equipment) but they do effectively give you an idea as to the various plume patterns and their applicability to your injector targeting & distribution expectations. When considering the Bosch vs Rochester P&H's, my choice is still the Bosch injector, for many of the reasons stated earlier. There are two other important factors which I did not state at that time. 1) The Rochester's are not tolerant of substantially increased fuel pressure. On a hot day, with a 4/1 amp driver, do not expect to operate a Rochester at much over about 55 psig without fear that it will fail to open against the prevailing internal hydraulic pressure. Whereas, I have been able to operate some of the Bosch injectors as high as 140psig, which allows a huge window of tuning opportunity down the road without having to fork over considerable $$$ for new injectors. 2) At low base pulse widths, with a 4/1 amp driver, the Rochester's exhibit more irregularity and nonlinearity IMHO. As for staged injection, if your particular ECU/software package easily accommodates this feature, then by all means make use of it! On the other hand, if your package does not, then you will have to rely upon your own means to build custom electronics and fudge the software tables. This can either represent an interesting challenge, or a PITA, depending upon your background and outlook. Yes, some of the Bosch Motorsport injectors are available in stainless steel form (either internally or externally or both) for use with alcohol based and other nasty fuels. However, even though your application is for marine use sounds like you as using "gas" which should be compatible with normal non-SS injectors. Hopefully you don't have that much water in your fuel :) More info to come on the specific injectors. As soon as it congeals I will advise..... Walt. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ---------------------------- > >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 09:24:42 -0800 (PST) >From: Anthony Buccellato >Subject: Re: peak and hold injectors > >Hey Walt, > >Thanks for the info. I don't need 160 lbs/hr units, not sure how that >ended up in the thread. I calculate I currently need 76 lbs/hr with a high >BSFC, as I understand boosted applications sometimes exhibit. I would >prefer to get closer to 100 lbs/hr to allow some room for future >improvement. > >Checking with the injector companies has shown me it's either Rochester or >Bosch Motorsport. Rochester is appealing, due to low cost, I've found them >for $62 for 82 lb units. I've heard Bosch is better, and some of their >units are even offered in stainless steel, big plus for us boaters. > >I really want to avoid staged injection, at this point. Cost, complexity, >etc. High PW resolution should do me fine at an idle, I figure. > >If you've got injector pattern pics, please send them. Any further insight >on Bosch vs. Rochester would be welcome, as well as suggestions for >reasonably priced suppliers, would be great. Thanks. > >- - Clay > >Oh yeah, please comment on "Rochester isn't as precise" > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:21:21 -0800 (PST) >From: Anthony Buccellato >Subject: re: Lots of snips from BBC with 160 lb injectors > >Hi Carl, > >I didn't mention 160 lb. I need 80 - 100 lb. I currently produce "only" >800 HP, but plan to purchase injectors capable of 1000 - 1100 HP. Gotta >look ahead. I plan to run both pump and aviation gasoline, depending on >the occasion. Would like stainless steel due to the marine environment. > >Walt says the Rochester units may have a little better sensitivity at >short pulse widths, a big bonus for idle quality. If I can locate a good >supplier at a reasonable price, I'll try and find a 90 lb model to >purchase. > >If you have any input re: BBC application, fire away, I would be glad to >hear it. Once concern I have is finding good weld-in fittings for my >manifold. I would like to find a "positive" retention system to hold the >injectors secure against boost, initially 8 - 15 psi, but potential for up >to 20 psi down the road. > >Thanks, > >- - Clay - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------------------------- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:25:31 -0800 From: Carl Summers Subject: re: lots of snips from BBC with 160 lb injectors Hi, Try this site http://www.msdignition.com/ and go to MSD Fuel Management...lot's of good info there on mounting hardware and the part number 2015 96lb injector you are looking for...also, idle quality was pretty good with these 96 lbr's on a 540 BBC with the sequential Autronics box...meaning it idled reasonably clean and stable at 700 rpm....hth's- Carl Summers BTW could someone tell me if I need to unsubscribe from this list and resubscribe under non digest to get rid of this digest mode??? - ----------------------------- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:21:21 -0800 (PST) From: Anthony Buccellato Subject: re: Lots of snips from BBC with 160 lb injectors Hi Carl, I didn't mention 160 lb. I need 80 - 100 lb. I currently produce "only" 800 HP, but plan to purchase injectors capable of 1000 - 1100 HP. Gotta look ahead. I plan to run both pump and aviation gasoline, depending on the occasion. Would like stainless steel due to the marine environment. Walt says the Rochester units may have a little better sensitivity at short pulse widths, a big bonus for idle quality. If I can locate a good supplier at a reasonable price, I'll try and find a 90 lb model to purchase. If you have any input re: BBC application, fire away, I would be glad to hear it. Once concern I have is finding good weld-in fittings for my manifold. I would like to find a "positive" retention system to hold the injectors secure against boost, initially 8 - 15 psi, but potential for up to 20 psi down the road. Thanks, - - - Clay Maybe some of us have forgotten our math??? 160lb x 8 cyl / .5 bsfc = 2 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:07:51 -0500 From: Charles Subject: Re: water injection On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:40:46 -0800, you wrote: >With care, some before the turbo can be very effective and perhaps the >simplest-- True, since you don't need a manifold-referenced regulator. In fact, can't you use the boost pressure to build up pressure in the water tank and thus have automatic rising injection rate? I have seen discussion of this subject before and there was some concern over water droplets causing erosion of the compressor blades when it's wound up to 100,000 rpm or so. Any comments? - -Charles '81 BMW 745i currently knock-limited to 15 psi boost - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:16:14 -0600 From: Gabe Subject: Re: Mopar heated O2 sensor question Unless there is something I am missing, the heated O2's that I've dealt with get +12 when the ignition is on, that's about it. Will McGonegal wrote: > I have a four wire heated O2 sensor from a Chrysler (p.n. 5233088). I believe that the > heater inside it can be powered continuously by 12 volts. Does anyone know if this is > not the case? Perhaps there is a more complex scheme for regulating the sensor > temperature that I am not aware of (e.g.. measuring current and voltage into heater, > calculating resistance, therefore knowing the temperature). I only have the sensor, not > the car so I cannot monitor it while it is in use. I'd like to put it on putting it on > a 4-stroke ice-race bike to be sure that I'm still running rich on these cold winter > days. > > Thanks for any help > > Will > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:47:41 -0700 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: water injection >On Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:40:46 -0800, you wrote: > >>With care, some before the turbo can be very effective and perhaps the >>simplest-- > >True, since you don't need a manifold-referenced regulator. >In fact, can't you use the boost pressure to build up >pressure in the water tank and thus have automatic rising >injection rate? > >I have seen discussion of this subject before and there was >some concern over water droplets causing erosion of the >compressor blades when it's wound up to 100,000 rpm or so. >Any comments? I think very fine atomization is the key to avoiding this as well, that plus only putting enough water in pre-turbo so as not to go past saturation (with respect to water) at the turbo outlet volume flow/temp conditions. And, remember--the pre-turbo water will lower the turbo compressoor outlet temp considerably. How much water to use here can be calculated. For fine atomization of pre-turbo water, enough pressure is going to be necessary to make "boost referencing" it, or using boost pressure to boost the pump about irrelevant. You will likely need at least 250--300 psi water pressure, or else compressed air atomization at the nozzle, to get it as fine as it ought to be. Greg > >-Charles >'81 BMW 745i currently knock-limited to 15 psi boost >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 00 14:29:46 -0800 (PST) From: ccccc@xxx.gov Subject: Camless Otto Cycle Engine >From diy_efi 10 Feb 1998 Gregory A. Parmer said: "FWIW, there was quite a discussion about this a while back. Ford Research Laboratory has developed an "Electrohydraulic Camless Valvetrain (ECV)" which uses electronic solenoids to control fluid, which in turn actuates the valves. For a one page down-to-earth description see Machine Design, Nov 7, 1996." It probably was in that Machine Design I read about one implementation. They did a "cute" thing. Did away with the starter. Just opened a valve, squirted in some fuel, closed the valve and fired the plug. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 22:38:08 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: water injection Pre turbo with just relatively small amounts. The water in healthy does, erodes the wheel, badly. All the compressor wheel does then is sling the water to the walls of the housing outlet. Think Centrifigall force Bruce > >>With care, some before the turbo can be very effective and perhaps the > >>simplest-- > > > >True, since you don't need a manifold-referenced regulator. > >In fact, can't you use the boost pressure to build up > >pressure in the water tank and thus have automatic rising > >injection rate? > > > >I have seen discussion of this subject before and there was > >some concern over water droplets causing erosion of the > >compressor blades when it's wound up to 100,000 rpm or so. > >Any comments? > > I think very fine atomization is the key to avoiding this as well, that > plus only putting enough water in pre-turbo so as not to go past saturation > (with respect to water) at the turbo outlet volume flow/temp conditions. > And, remember--the pre-turbo water will lower the turbo compressoor outlet > temp considerably. How much water to use here can be calculated. > > For fine atomization of pre-turbo water, enough pressure is going to be > necessary to make "boost referencing" it, or using boost pressure to boost > the pump about irrelevant. You will likely need at least 250--300 psi water > pressure, or else compressed air atomization at the nozzle, to get it as > fine as it ought to be. > > Greg > > > >-Charles > >'81 BMW 745i currently knock-limited to 15 psi boost > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 20:54:37 -0800 From: Laura & Neil Subject: Aspin engine > Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:13:36 -0700 > From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) > Subject: Re: Aspin engine > > >Check on the web for the Aspin engine. > >It used a rotating cone arrangement for a combustion chamber, with a hole > >cut in the > >cone that aligned with first the inlet then the exhaust at half crank RPM. > >From what > >I remember it gave a near perfect stratification to the intake charge with low > >emmissions and excellent fuel consumption. Only problem was sealing the cone. > > > >Neil > > > You slip the word "ONLY" in there so casually, Neil! > > Done the way an investment banker trying to sell stock in the thing would > do it!! :-) > > Greg > Lets face it Greg. My knowledge of practical physics and engineering, is probably comparable to Mozart's knowledge of bricklaying. Neil - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 00:44:28 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: New member, programming under boost questions > Hi! I've spent a good deal of time reading the archives and pouring over > PROM dumps, and I've got a few questions that I didn't find answers for. > First, the scenario: > > '94 Corvette 350LT1 w/6psi Vortech > ...and under construction: > 396LT1 w/50# injectors, 12-15psi boost, 2 core intercooler > > My first goal, under the heading of "learn on the old motor first", is to > eliminate the FMU and alter the spark tables to be better suited to the > blown application. I don't see the logic in eliminating the FMU. It's the only thing raising your fuel capacity. > My big question is about the WOT Enrichment vs. RPM table. It's described > in some places as specifying a desired AF ratio, in others as a percentage > of extra fuel to add during WOT. Which is more accurate? How does the O2 > sensor get figured into this blanket enrichment at WOT? Very little if at all. > My second question relates more specifically to accomodating boost. Since > the VE tables are limited to 100%, what's the best way to program for boost? > I'm thinking this: > 1) In the RPM range where boost is present, in the 100kPa column, set VE to > 100% If you don't have enough fuel, still will be lean. Or possibly too much (I doubt) > 2) Get the extra fuel to accomodate the true >100% VE by upping the WOT > enrichment table entries There is a mechanical limit. Once you run out of fuel, it's mute. Need enough injector, fuel pump, etc. > I can't really do #2 without understanding that table a little better, hence > the original question. Any feedback on how I should go about programming > the LT1 controller for boost would be greatly appreciated! The LT1 is stock form has no accomodation for boost. To do this right you need for the calibration to see what the engine load is. Grumpy > > Thanks, > Dave > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #48 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".