DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, February 5 2000 Volume 05 : Number 053 In this issue: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #52 Re: camless engines RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #52 (las) Vega's Re: (las) Vega's Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #52 Nicasil plating of (steel) cylinder bores... Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #52 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #52 Where The Heck Is The New FTP Site - Clay etal Re: Where The Heck Is The New FTP Site - Clay etal Injector Drivers. Re: Nicasil plating of (steel) cylinder bores... Re: Nicasil plating of (steel) cylinder bores... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:08:04 -0500 From: Scott_Hay@xxx.com Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #52 Adrian wrote: "Here's a good web-page explaining Variable Valve Timing, and comparing the Honda and Toyota methods. The Toyota VVT you describe above has been superceded by TVVTiL, which is the same system (the VVT bit) but has "intelligence" (the i bit) that means it now has infinately variable timing, rather than just "mode A or mode B", and also variable lift (the L bit) which means it adjusts lift as well as timing." Let me elaborate: The "i" does stand for intelligence and yes it is infinitely variable. The intelligence means that it has adaptive learning abilities with a feedback loop to match commanded valve timing to actual operating timing and will adjust for wear, etc. The link shows one system. There is also a vane type of VVTi now used on the V6's. One of the other benefits it that it eliminates the egr system which is now accomplished through overlap. Scott - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 08:15:00 -0800 From: Bill Edgeworth Subject: Re: camless engines Years ago in Vancouver a guy named Bill Philips was experimenting with camless engines. He used a rotary valve driven by a timing belt off the crank. I don't know if it worked out I think he could not get the rotary valves to seal. His application was on a blown alcohol hemi. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 10:41:03 -0600 From: Brandon@xxx.edu Subject: RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #52 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6F2E.A05981E4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I was a mechanic at a chevy dealer when the Vegas came out. I might mention that they won motor trends car of the year award, and GM built a new highly automated plant to build them. The motors could be made to live by putting steel sleeves in them and I did quite a few of them. The bodies rusted worse than the motors blew up. I spent many a night putting V8s in them and tearing up the streets. All in all GM learned a lot about building cheap alum motors, it is a shame that the consumer had to pay for the experiment. - ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6F2E.A05981E4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #52

I was a mechanic at a chevy dealer when the Vegas = came out.  I might mention that they won motor trends car of the = year award, and GM built a new highly automated plant to build = them.  The motors could be made to live by putting steel sleeves = in them and I did quite a few of them.  The bodies rusted worse = than the motors blew up.  I spent many a night putting V8s in them = and tearing up the streets.  All in all GM learned a lot about = building cheap alum motors, it is a shame that the consumer had to pay = for the experiment. 

- ------_=_NextPart_001_01BF6F2E.A05981E4-- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 08:59:04 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: (las) Vega's Don't dis the underlying technology too much, the Alumasil process was used successfully by Porche for the 928. To understand the concept of the Vega motor, imagine two 18" pieces of 2x4, with 4 empty beer cans lined up between them. Now use steel strapping to tightly bind the assembly together. The long head bolts on the Vega connected the stiff iron head to the main bearing saddles. The block was cast from a special high silicon (carbide?) content alloy. After machining, the bores had to be etched, revealing the hard crystalline wear surface of the silicon. The iron plating on the pistons was to prevent galling and provide a better bearing surface. Thermal coefficient between piston and block was of course more closely matched, although the piston still expanded from runnning higher temps. Aftermarket pistons with teflon coating were tried, but how many shops were equipped to re-etch the bores after a rebuild (which was often!). Since Vega was intended as a low$ high volume product, engineering features that could have incresed the reliability were obviously overridden by cost concerns. Cared for properly, (oil changes, coolant, filters) these motors could last 100K+, as my friend's did. But even if you kept the motor alive, the body would dissolve in rust around it, almost before your eyes, especially in salted winters, or near an ocean. Maybe electrolysis somethere? (note from budget dept to engineering, sacrificial magnesium anodes deleted, too expensive). Carter Shore __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 11:07:19 -0600 From: steve ravet Subject: Re: (las) Vega's Carter Shore wrote: > > Don't dis the underlying technology too much, the > Alumasil process was used successfully by Porche for > the 928. > > To understand the concept of the Vega motor, imagine > two 18" pieces of 2x4, with 4 empty beer cans lined up > between them. Now use steel strapping to tightly bind I thought I understood this engine, now I'm just confused. Am I supposed to drink the other 8 beers? Did GM engineers drink too many beers before they built an engine out of pine and beer cans? :-) - --steve - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 14:45:06 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #52 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01BF6F1E.6D975700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #52Amen, one case of where racing tech., didn't work on the street Grumpy I was a mechanic at a chevy dealer when the Vegas came out. I might = mention that they won motor trends car of the year award, and GM built a = new highly automated plant to build them. The motors could be made to = live by putting steel sleeves in them and I did quite a few of them. = The bodies rusted worse than the motors blew up. I spent many a night = putting V8s in them and tearing up the streets. All in all GM learned a = lot about building cheap alum motors, it is a shame that the consumer = had to pay for the experiment. =20 - ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01BF6F1E.6D975700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #52
Amen,
one case of where racing = tech., didn't=20 work on the street
Grumpy

I was a mechanic at a chevy dealer when the Vegas = came=20 out.  I might mention that they won motor trends car of the year = award,=20 and GM built a new highly automated plant to build them.  The = motors=20 could be made to live by putting steel sleeves in them and I did quite = a few=20 of them.  The bodies rusted worse than the motors blew up.  = I spent=20 many a night putting V8s in them and tearing up the streets.  All = in all=20 GM learned a lot about building cheap alum motors, it is a shame that = the=20 consumer had to pay for the experiment. =20

- ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01BF6F1E.6D975700-- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 21:38:38 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F6rgen_Karlsson?= Subject: Nicasil plating of (steel) cylinder bores... Hi With all this talk of the vega engines I came to think about the technology used on dirtbike engines. An aluminum bore plated with nicasil, whatever that is, it was many years since I played with bikes. Can that be done to a steel bore, I remember that is was supposed to make the heat transfer better or maybe that was because of the aluminum bore. I know that there was almost no wear on the bores, I think that I have the 25th set of piston and rings or so in my old dirt bike and it has never had any work done to the cylinder bore. There is (was?) a place here in sweden that could apply a new plating if the bore had to be machined to an over dimension. I also remember that some place fitted steel bores in the cylinders and if you used that aproach different piston rings had to used and all of a sudden you also had cylinder wear. I had a KTM 4 stroke dirt bike that also had nicasil plating and that bike had no measured wear after 20000+ miles. That includes the piston! Jörgen Karlsson Gothenburg, Sweden. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:40:12 -0500 From: "Clare Snyder" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #52 > > There are old engines that did this. They had a rotating sleeve around > > the cyclinder opening ports in it's walls. At least, I believe this is > how it > > works, I'm sure others can tell us the details. The Knight Sleeve valve engine - used by Willies and a few others for a few years - they were expensive to build. They were a good low speed design if I remember correctly > > > > I believe they are no longer made because they are difficult to make. > > > Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:48:25 -0800 > From: Ludis Langens > Subject: Re: Vega engine > > Ade + Lamb Chop wrote: > > > > >Also betcha that the first engines with anything resembling solenoid > > >operated valves are about as long lived and popular as the Vega engines > > >were! > > > > Vega?? I think I have just made you point! So what is a Vega engine then? > > Nobody else has jumped in, so I'll answer even though the Vega is a bit > before my time: The Vega engine was a SOHC 4 cylinder with an aluminum > block with no cylinder liners. The aluminum had a high silicon content > to minimize cylinder wear. I looked at one briefly in the wrecking yard > - - the head seemed to be iron! > It was. Except on the Cosworth. > - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 17:55:51 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #52 We got a 36 Willy's Knight next door. Montgomery Wards after market car. Idles dead smooth at 300 rpm. I mean other then noise, and the fan belt moving you'd never guess it was running. Grumpy Just for EFI content, betcha I could get a lower idle with a 730, Probably better mph then the updraft csrby too. > > The Knight Sleeve valve engine - used by Willies and a few others for a few > years - they were expensive to build. They were a good low speed design if I > remember correctly > > > > > > I believe they are no longer made because they are difficult to make. > > > > > > Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 13:48:25 -0800 > > From: Ludis Langens > > Subject: Re: Vega engine > > > > Ade + Lamb Chop wrote: > > > > > > >Also betcha that the first engines with anything resembling solenoid > > > >operated valves are about as long lived and popular as the Vega engines > > > >were! > > > > > > Vega?? I think I have just made you point! So what is a Vega engine > then? > > > > Nobody else has jumped in, so I'll answer even though the Vega is a bit > > before my time: The Vega engine was a SOHC 4 cylinder with an aluminum > > block with no cylinder liners. The aluminum had a high silicon content > > to minimize cylinder wear. I looked at one briefly in the wrecking yard > > - - the head seemed to be iron! > > > It was. Except on the Cosworth. > > - -- > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 18:44:43 -0800 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Where The Heck Is The New FTP Site - Clay etal Hi Clay, When the lists migrated, the "incoming" FTP server moved here ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/incoming/ . I have had numerous messages from people (on both DIY & GMECM), in response to my recent post, asking the exact same question that you have just asked. The file is there, trust me ;) If you can't find it then please let me know, as I would hope that you in particular can make use of it. I am beginning to think that the location of the "new" FTP site is not quite as inuitive as maybe the caretakers of the site had hoped. I'll send a message to Steve, and see what he can do in terms of directing people to the right place by default. I must admit that when I went back and tried using my old bookmarks I wound up in the wrong place too! I would certainly hope that the contents of both the old and new servers will eventually reside in one common place? Stay In Touch; Walt. >Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:19:51 -0800 (PST) >From: Clay B >Subject: Re: Big injectors > >Excuse my ignorance, but where is this FTP site? I take it this is not the >same one that is referenced on the web page, as I do not find the >aforementioned file there... > >Thanks, Walt. > >- - Clay > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 16:28:40 -0800 (PST) From: Clay B Subject: Re: Where The Heck Is The New FTP Site - Clay etal Hi Walt, Found it, someone pointed out the correct location. Those are some great pics, and very informative. At least the poor Rochesters appear somewhat better than the Siemens injectors. I'm afraid I've had to eliminate the Bosch from consideration due to their 4X cost factor over Rochester. - - Clay On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Walter Sherwin wrote: > Hi Clay, > > When the lists migrated, the "incoming" FTP server moved here > ftp://ftp.diy-efi.org/incoming/ . I have had numerous messages from > people (on both DIY & GMECM), in response to my recent post, asking the > exact same question that you have just asked. The file is there, trust me > ;) If you can't find it then please let me know, as I would hope that you > in particular can make use of it. > > I am beginning to think that the location of the "new" FTP site is not quite > as inuitive as maybe the caretakers of the site had hoped. I'll send a > message to Steve, and see what he can do in terms of directing people to the > right place by default. I must admit that when I went back and tried using > my old bookmarks I wound up in the wrong place too! I would certainly > hope that the contents of both the old and new servers will eventually > reside in one common place? > > > Stay In Touch; > Walt. > > > >Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 09:19:51 -0800 (PST) > >From: Clay B > >Subject: Re: Big injectors > > > >Excuse my ignorance, but where is this FTP site? I take it this is not the > >same one that is referenced on the web page, as I do not find the > >aforementioned file there... > > > >Thanks, Walt. > > > >- - Clay > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 18:29:20 -0800 From: Gordon Brogan Subject: Injector Drivers. Hi, I am not on your email list but have been following along via the archives and this is my first email to the group. I have an EA-81 1800cc Subaru flat four engine that I will be installing in an aircraft. I already have one flying great with an old Holley 1920 S.B. carb but I would like to eventually like to go EFI. I will be running two processors - one as a backup !. My background is assembly language programming and hardware so I am conversant with electronics etc. I already have a 8032 processor running on the bench as an ECU and another 8032 simulating the engine. The engine simulator puts out tdc pulses and responds to throttle inputs..also is very quiet! all works great on the bench....ha! I have a few questions. On aircraft, unlike a car the engine always has a constant known load vs RPM this aspect makes things simpler for the ECU also throttle changes are very gradual. In aircraft the engine usually runs most of the time at 3/4 of full power. I would like advise on the minimum number of sensors required. I would like to just use a MAP sensor and RPM level. I will also a atmospheric sensor for altitude compensation. Is it possible to run with just this or will I also need a TPS sensor? My reasoning is, if the cpu knows the RPM and the MAP it knows the engine load and the fuel feed can be derived from look up tables I generate. Also what are you folks using for injector drivers, the injectors I have are low impedance Bosch type. The archives indicate all kinds of problems getting Cherry drivers etc. Thanks in advance for any help, Gordon. P.S. Please respond to the list and I can read it off the archives. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:43:46 -0700 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Nicasil plating of (steel) cylinder bores... >Hi > >With all this talk of the vega engines I came to think about the technology >used on dirtbike engines. An aluminum bore plated with nicasil, whatever >that is, it was many years since I played with bikes. Can that be done to a >steel bore, I remember that is was supposed to make the heat transfer better >or maybe that was because of the aluminum bore. There are several bore coating technologies--mostly for aluminium. Nicasil is one, Chromal is another-- Porsche used it, successfully, it is hard chrome on aluminium. There is one I do not know the name for, OMC used it when they were playing with Wankel outboards, Somehow they were plating tungsten carbide onto aluminium. I have heard of one Porsche used which they called Biral--don't know if this is synonomous with nikasil or not. The Vega engine did NOT use a coating--they used a hypereutectic aluminium alloy in which silicon particles precipitate out as it solidifies. Then, they etched the bore surfaces, so as to leave only the surface of the silicon particles as the wear surface. It definitely did NOT work as planned! As for cast iron--Bore Tech is the only one I know of, they do a carbide conversion of some sort to the surface of the cast iron. Makes it harder than a lady of the evening's heart. Greg > >I know that there was almost no wear on the bores, I think that I have the >25th set of piston and rings or so in my old dirt bike and it has never had >any work done to the cylinder bore. There is (was?) a place here in sweden >that could apply a new plating if the bore had to be machined to an over >dimension. I also remember that some place fitted steel bores in the >cylinders and if you used that aproach different piston rings had to used >and all of a sudden you also had cylinder wear. > >I had a KTM 4 stroke dirt bike that also had nicasil plating and that bike >had no measured wear after 20000+ miles. That includes the piston! > >Jörgen Karlsson >Gothenburg, Sweden. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 00:54:54 -0500 (EST) From: Mary or Stephen Burgess Subject: Re: Nicasil plating of (steel) cylinder bores... Nicasil was a product developed for the British Air-Force by a chemist that it's my pleasure to know (he's a great friend, and is very good for free info on all sorts of stuff). The original use of nicasil plating was for the nosecones of rockets, it has a very low co-efficient of friction (better than teflon), is very, very hard, and does not transfer heat well. It's curing, and breaking in process is ideal for use in internal combustion engines, where the hotter and harsher the breakin, the better it performs. To my understanding, nicasil is used greatly in the cylinders of a lot of modern motorcycles with aluminium cylinders. There are several other coatings, similar to nicasil, used in automotive applications (steel cylinders), that are experiencing limited success (the Dodge Neon uses a coating that comes off if the engine is loaded too heavily while still cold). I think I recall my friend mentioning that you could get this stuff in two different states - a pure "A" state that requires a catalist and a cure temperature of around 3000'C, or a "B" state that does'nt require a catalist and cure's around 1200'C (guess which one is more expensive). I looked into doing some steel cylinders with it, but look was as far as I got. I felt it would insulate the cylinders too well from the water jackets, and the engine would probably burn up. At 09:38 PM 2/4/00 +0100, you wrote: >Hi > >With all this talk of the vega engines I came to think about the technology >used on dirtbike engines. An aluminum bore plated with nicasil, whatever >that is, it was many years since I played with bikes. Can that be done to a >steel bore, I remember that is was supposed to make the heat transfer better >or maybe that was because of the aluminum bore. > >I know that there was almost no wear on the bores, I think that I have the >25th set of piston and rings or so in my old dirt bike and it has never had >any work done to the cylinder bore. There is (was?) a place here in sweden >that could apply a new plating if the bore had to be machined to an over >dimension. I also remember that some place fitted steel bores in the >cylinders and if you used that aproach different piston rings had to used >and all of a sudden you also had cylinder wear. > >I had a KTM 4 stroke dirt bike that also had nicasil plating and that bike >had no measured wear after 20000+ miles. That includes the piston! > >Jörgen Karlsson >Gothenburg, Sweden. > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #53 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".