DIY_EFI Digest Thursday, February 10 2000 Volume 05 : Number 060 In this issue: Re: Electric Fuel Pumps Re: Fuel pump and pressure regulator recommends cnc enclosure Re: Electric Fuel Pumps Problem with Rover Mpi Mini newbie here.. RE: Electric Fuel Pumps RE: Electric Fuel Pumps TBI location help - Motronic M1.5 adaptation issues computer/nitros controller RE: Electric Fuel Pumps Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.org RE: Electric Fuel Pumps RE: Haltech vs. Electromotive vs. Wolf 3D vs ??? Re: TBI location See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:45:25 -0800 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: Electric Fuel Pumps Shane, I have no idea how how much pressure versus volume your 92 'bird pump can produce. If you are looking for a high output, cost effective, quiet, in-tank electric pump for GM TBI/TPI applications I would look at the offerings from Holley (specifically 12-903 and 12-914). These are gerotor style pumps, made by Walbro, and are equipped with all of the hardware that you will need for installation to your sender unit (ie: strainer, connector, isolator, instructions, etc...). Bosch also have some excellent in-tank pumps, but they can be a bit pricey, and sometimes it can be a PITA to custom adapt strainers to the bottoms of these. One good all purpose in-tank/out-of-tank pump is the Bosch GFP216 (aka 0 580 254 984). However, be warned that this is a rollervane style pump, and has an irritating whine, as opposed to the gerotor style above. Whenever faced with the choice of installing in-tank or out-of-tank, I prefer in-tank for two reasons. 1) less operating noise 2) reduced suction/lift losses & vapour effects at the pump inlet. Walt. Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 10:38:11 -0600 From: "Shane Buss" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #57 .............Do you know what the stock fuel pump off my 92 firebird 305 tbi can support as far as the holley 670 with 85#? Thanks, Shane - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 10:56:18 -0800 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Re: Fuel pump and pressure regulator recommends Clay, Kinsler is an excellent source of everything that you will require, from regulators and pumps right through to fittings and filters/strainers. When you talk to them, ask specifically about both their "Weldon" fuel pumps and their hard anodized/marinized components. Got your e-mail the other day. I should be able to get back to you about it later today...... Walt. >Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 11:36:35 -0800 (PST) >From: Clay B >Subject: Fuel pump and pressure regulator recommends > >Anyone have suggestions on which model of pressure regulator to purchase? >Should be adjustable, manifold pressure referenced, up to 70 psi, and >physically compact would be great. > >Also need to get a 70 psi, 100 GPH fuel pump. Any recommends on quality >mfg's appreciated. > >- - Clay - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 13:16:28 EST From: RSRACE@xxx.com Subject: cnc enclosure i would be willing to make some enclosures for a complete assembled unit. how many would you need. My family owns a cnc machine shop. Ross Machine check it out. It would be a trade. Tom Ross Jr. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 12:00:44 -0700 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Electric Fuel Pumps >Shane, > >I have no idea how how much pressure versus volume your 92 'bird pump can >produce. If you are looking for a high output, cost effective, quiet, >in-tank electric pump for GM TBI/TPI applications I would look at the >offerings from Holley (specifically 12-903 and 12-914). These are gerotor >style pumps, made by Walbro, and are equipped with all of the hardware that >you will need for installation to your sender unit (ie: strainer, >connector, isolator, instructions, etc...). > >Bosch also have some excellent in-tank pumps, but they can be a bit pricey, >and sometimes it can be a PITA to custom adapt strainers to the bottoms of >these. One good all purpose in-tank/out-of-tank pump is the Bosch GFP216 >(aka 0 580 254 984). However, be warned that this is a rollervane style >pump, and has an irritating whine, as opposed to the gerotor style above. >Whenever faced with the choice of installing in-tank or out-of-tank, I >prefer in-tank for two reasons. 1) less operating noise 2) reduced >suction/lift losses & vapour effects at the pump inlet. > >Walt. > Hi Walt-- Didn't realize that you had good pump data at hand! I have been pondering using a primary in tank pump, only need maybe 7 to 10 psi output, but 60 to 80 GPH would be a good idea. Thinking I will use a mechanically driven gear type secondary HP pump to feed the rails. The mechanical pump is no problem to come up with or drive, but I (naturally) want something quite reliable and relatively insensitive to dirt in the tank. Electrical system will be 24 vdc. I have been thinking pretty seriously about just using a 24v. marine centrifugal bilge pump in the tank--35 HUNDRED GPH, but just run it right up near the (about 7 psi on gasoline) stall head on its curve--very nearly constant output as to pressure that way at such a low flow rate for the pjmp's size, and thus be able to make whatever primary fuel flow I need in a laugh. And--at such a low peak flow rate relative to the size of the pump, relatively low current requirement for the pump motor, and hence very reliable and cool running. Clearly not sensitve to dirt, either. Any thoughts or other suggestions for an in-tank pump that would fill this general need?? I would think that running a HP in-tank fuel pump , but regulated to the low output pressure I need, but at 24 v instead of 12 v. MIGHT just goose the (pump speed and) volume of a fairly ordinary in-tank pump up to what I need with no adverse effects on the pump motor so long as the load on it was light due to the low pressure--- Regards, Greg - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:06:47 +0000 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Problem with Rover Mpi Mini Hi All, I recently noticed a few things with my Fience's Rover Mini. It has a slight miss at idle and has a stumble coming off idle. The throttle also doesn't seem to do much for the first little bit of travel. The butterfly is moving but nothing is happening. It recently passed the emmsions test part of the MOT with flying colours. Any Ideas? Ade - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:19:45 -0500 From: Jan Ben Subject: newbie here.. Hi all, I just signed up. I am impressed w. the MC diy project you guys are involved with. I am primarily interested in modifying or at least transplanting OEM EFI, like retrofitting a Motronic instead of the L-Jet, or how to tune it or add a turbo. Also, I was wondering if you guys thought about a cheap way to collect data.. I was thinking that a bunch of sensors (incl. sparc and injector info, etc etc) could be modulated and recorded on a hi-fi audio tape. Then you can read it in w. a sound card, and play w. the data all you want. Anybody thought about it? I just know there's a cheap consumer card out there that can either TDM or freq. modulate 4 or 8 channels ..? rgds Jan - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:07:46 -0800 From: Carl Summers Subject: RE: Electric Fuel Pumps Hi Greg, Unless you plan on running some sort of large accumulator the mechanical/gear driven pump will cause many tuning problems on shift as engine rpm goes down and so does pump....fought that on that 1600hp boat engine with the turbo 400.. the fuel pressure would drop to below 20 psi on upshift and lean backfire....crazy thing was (not so crazy though, less torque meant more drastic rpm changes on upshift)it was worse the easier you were on the throttle so didn't notice it as bad until I was going back over the driveability stuff after verifying full throttle....thank god for datalogging....would have never found it...ended up with an elctric fuel pump set up to run while in 1st and 2nd gear and shut off in third...got that straightened out and no probs other than the normal retune from the engine dyno to the real world...just some insight...ttyl - -Carl Summers - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.org]On Behalf Of Greg Hermann Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 11:01 AM To: diy_efi@xxx.org Subject: Re: Electric Fuel Pumps Hi Walt-- Didn't realize that you had good pump data at hand! I have been pondering using a primary in tank pump, only need maybe 7 to 10 psi output, but 60 to 80 GPH would be a good idea. Thinking I will use a mechanically driven gear type secondary HP pump to feed the rails. The mechanical pump is no problem to come up with or drive, but I (naturally) want something quite reliable and relatively insensitive to dirt in the tank. Electrical system will be 24 vdc. I have been thinking pretty seriously about just using a 24v. marine centrifugal bilge pump in the tank--35 HUNDRED GPH, but just run it right up near the (about 7 psi on gasoline) stall head on its curve--very nearly constant output as to pressure that way at such a low flow rate for the pjmp's size, and thus be able to make whatever primary fuel flow I need in a laugh. And--at such a low peak flow rate relative to the size of the pump, relatively low current requirement for the pump motor, and hence very reliable and cool running. Clearly not sensitve to dirt, either. Any thoughts or other suggestions for an in-tank pump that would fill this general need?? I would think that running a HP in-tank fuel pump , but regulated to the low output pressure I need, but at 24 v instead of 12 v. MIGHT just goose the (pump speed and) volume of a fairly ordinary in-tank pump up to what I need with no adverse effects on the pump motor so long as the load on it was light due to the low pressure--- Regards, Greg - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:26:36 -0700 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: RE: Electric Fuel Pumps >Hi Greg, > Unless you plan on running some sort of large accumulator the >mechanical/gear driven pump will cause many tuning problems on shift as >engine rpm goes down and so does pump....fought that on that 1600hp boat >engine with the turbo 400.. the fuel pressure would drop to below 20 psi on >upshift and lean backfire....crazy thing was (not so crazy though, less >torque meant more drastic rpm changes on upshift)it was worse the easier you >were on the throttle so didn't notice it as bad until I was going back over >the driveability stuff after verifying full throttle....thank god for >datalogging....would have never found it...ended up with an elctric fuel >pump set up to run while in 1st and 2nd gear and shut off in third...got >that straightened out and no probs other than the normal retune from the >engine dyno to the real world...just some insight...ttyl >-Carl Summers Hi Carl-- Thanks for the tip! Hmmm. Gonna hafta think this one through. I am planning on using an accumulator on the intermediate pressure part of the fuel system--the FEED TO the mechanical pump. Had not thought about using one on the HP side of it, particularly cuz I was thinking of adjusting the rail pressure to suit varying engine operating conditions, and an accumulator on the HP side of the system would destroy the response time for these rail pressure changes. But I have a funny feeling that you were getting the anomalies on the HP side! This appears to be a fun puzzle--not real obvious to me why it was going on, but that doesn't mean it couldn't! Just almost seems to me that you had to have some cavitation at the inlet to the mechanical pump for this to happen, but ???? An electrical (positive displacement) pump will definitely recover from a suction cavitation event quicker than a mechanical one, cuz the motor will pick up speed as soon as the vapor is in the pump--which is not true with a mechanical pump. Was your ecu correcting injector PW for fuel rail pressure on the engine in question?? Greg > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.org]On >Behalf Of Greg Hermann >Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 11:01 AM >To: diy_efi@xxx.org >Subject: Re: Electric Fuel Pumps > >Hi Walt-- > >Didn't realize that you had good pump data at hand! > >I have been pondering using a primary in tank pump, only need maybe 7 to 10 >psi output, but 60 to 80 GPH would be a good idea. Thinking I will use a >mechanically driven gear type secondary HP pump to feed the rails. The >mechanical pump is no problem to come up with or drive, but I (naturally) >want something quite reliable and relatively insensitive to dirt in the >tank. > >Electrical system will be 24 vdc. I have been thinking pretty seriously >about just using a 24v. marine centrifugal bilge pump in the tank--35 >HUNDRED GPH, but just run it right up near the (about 7 psi on gasoline) >stall head on its curve--very nearly constant output as to pressure that >way at such a low flow rate for the pjmp's size, and thus be able to make >whatever primary fuel flow I need in a laugh. And--at such a low peak flow >rate relative to the size of the pump, relatively low current requirement >for the pump motor, and hence very reliable and cool running. Clearly not >sensitve to dirt, either. > >Any thoughts or other suggestions for an in-tank pump that would fill this >general need?? > >I would think that running a HP in-tank fuel pump , but regulated to the >low output pressure I need, but at 24 v instead of 12 v. MIGHT just goose >the (pump speed and) volume of a fairly ordinary in-tank pump up to what I >need with no adverse effects on the pump motor so long as the load on it >was light due to the low pressure--- > >Regards, Greg > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:38:21 +0800 From: dzorde@xxx.com Subject: TBI location Hi all, I've now got as far as I'm in the process of deciding how to inject my supercharged Fiat (4 cyl), and am in need of some experienced help. For reference the car will be seeing 30-35psi boost (unless it blows up), the head is 5 port (ie. 1 inlet so easy to supercharge). Anyway my dilemma is where to locate the TBI or if I should even use a TBI, here are the options I have thought up and possibly some of the adv/disadv of these: 1. place TBI on head (similar to current carby setup and blow through TBI), easy replacement, but fuel needs to be boost referenced and it requires a blowoff valve to stop seals in s/c blowing when you close the throttle blades at high revs. 2. place TBI before s/c (suck through setup), may be a problem starting as fuel would have to go through s/c and intercooler, hence airflow may not be great enough during cranking to suck the fuel into the engine. Also what happens when you close the throttle blades at high revs, does the s/c try and suck air in past its seals ? 3. Just use a plain throttle body before s/c and mount a few injectors in the manifold pointing into the head (almost port injection). Fuel would not have to flow through intercooler, etc. So car may actually start during cranking, but again fuel needs to be boost referenced. However, what would happen to the s/c when you close the throttle at high revs, would it suck air in past its seals due to the vacuum being generated between the s/c and the throttle blades. What I'm after is peoples thoughts on which method to use. Thanks in advance for any help :-) Dan dzorde@xxx.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:59:21 -0500 From: Aribert_Neumann@xxx.ca Subject: help - Motronic M1.5 adaptation issues Greetings all. Background: I have adapted a Bosch Motronic M1.5 fuel injection system (complete system - intake manifold, air filter housing with integral MAF, all sensors, vehicle wiring harness, 3 wire O2 sensor, ignition coil and ECU) from a '92 GM of Europe 2.0 L engine (Opel/Vauxhall) and adapted to a formerly carb'ed '92 Isuzu 2.3 L engine. The Motronic system manages ignition timing via the ECU - the GM distributor consists of a large boss cast on the end of the cam cover with the distributor shaft an extension of the cam with only a rotor under the cap. I made a 3/4 in. thick aluminum adapter plate to mate the GM intake to the Isuzu head. I removed the crank trigger wheel and sensor from the GM engine (internally crank mounted wheel) and attached externally to the front of the Isuzu crank pulley. THe only other loose sensor from the Bosch system (balance of sensors integrated in the intake assy.) is the water temp unit which I tapped into the water manifold behind the thermostat - same as on the GM engine. I removed the ignition reluctor/hall effect sensor from the Isuzu dist. and am (trying) to use the dist. strictly to distribute the high voltage generated at the coil. The centrifugal advance in the Isuzu dist. has not been removed at this time. Results: Engine runs reluctantly, very low idle - under 500 rpm and is unresponsive to the throttle. I have adjusted the Isuzu dist. housing for maximum advance where the starter motor will still crank the engine. Resultant ignition timing is approx. 20 deg. AFTER TDC. Headers started glowing a very faint, dull red within a minute, my max run time. I disabled the high tension lead from the Bosch coil and attached my ignition bypass unit (little black box, sold by JC Whitney 15+ years ago, generates a spark stream to bypass points or electronic ignition). Engine runs good (at no load - vehicle is not driveable at this time), responsive to throttle changes, had an 800 rpm idle with occasional drop to 600 rpm with a correction to 1200 rpm and idle resettled at 800 rpm until the engine was up to temp. Once the engine was up to temp the idle was very steady. Ran engine in this mode at idle for about an hour. Due to the spark stream generated by the ignition bypass unit I was not able to use my inductive timing light to check the timing. Questions: 1. Why would the ECU retard the timing? And why would the engine act as if the timing was too far advanced when cranking the engine when I tried to compensate by advancing the dist. and still using the timing signal from the ECU? I was expecting the resultant timing to be too far advanced due to the cumulative effect of the centrifugal action still present in the Isuzu dist. and the ECU timing. 2. Initially I thought that I had mispositioned the crank sensor relative to the trigger wheel. If I had the crank sensor mispositioned by 20 deg retarded the injector firing should be retarded also. Would the engine not reflect this when running? Does anyone know the static angular relationship between TDC, crank sensor location and the missing teeth on the trigger wheel for Motronic systems? I am making an assumption that the relationship would be similar for various versions of the Motronic series. 3. What can I do to correct item 1? While I have a good selection of mechanical and fabrication tools, I am very limited in electrical/electronic diagnostic tools. 4. As part of the sorting out process, I assume the EPROM might need to be reprogrammed to reflect the differences between the 2.0 and 2.3 L engines. This is not something that I would attempt do to my lack of programming knowledge. If I outsourced this, what can go wrong in doing so? What is a worst case scenario? I do not have a spare back-up ECU and would have to have one shipped out of Europe. In the future, I intend to get duplicates of all unique sensors and a spare ECU. 5. If I am unable to correct the ECU controlled ignition timing problem, I intend to use a Crane XR-700 (formerly Allison) ignition module as a stand alone device for ignition, in lieu of the ECU ignition control, and not disable the centrifugal advance in the Isuzu dist. The Isuzu dist. also had (currently plugged off) a vac. advance. Can this be hooked up to intake manifold vacuum or does it need the vacuum signal from the former carb? Would there be any benefit of using the vac timing advance with the fuel injection? 6. I anticipate a potential lean condition at higher revs - current injectors / injection pulse time sized for a 2.0 L instead of the 2.3 L. I intend to purchase a $30 "A/F monitor" and do plug cuts early on in the shake down period. Would I be able to use the signal from the O2 sensor for both the ECU and the A/F gage or will the gage degrade the signal? Welding a second O2 sensor boss on the headers will void the lifetime warranty and I expect to run this vehicle for about 8 years. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 17:35:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Tristan Dresch Subject: computer/nitros controller Does any one have experiance or knowlege of how I could adapt an existing computer to regulate an injector that flows nitros to maintain a constant 60 degree temp in the plenum on a turbo car? I want to inject nitros after the turbo, before the throttle body to cool the charge temp to 60 degrees. Using a temp sensor in the plenum to tell the computer how much nitros needs to be added. Other variables include bottle pressure and fuel mixture. I believe the O2 sensor can adjust the fuel mixture suficently though, as not much nitros would need to be added to bring 300 degree air to 60 degrees. The next problem is finding an injector that can handle 1200lbs of line pressure from the Nitros bottle. I was thinking of direct injection injectors. Don't know if that will work though. Thanks for any input - Cris - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 18:12:05 -0800 From: Carl Summers Subject: RE: Electric Fuel Pumps Hi Greg, The controller I was using was an Autronics box....it has no feedback to watch fuel pressure and adjust PW...The fuel pressure drop has always happened on the Blown alcohol datalog stuff I have looked at when shifting gears, and I noticed the rise in AFR upon full throttle shift when I was datalogging this but was only about 3/4 of an AFR on the Horiba and if my memory serves me was about .4 seconds....but, when it would almost stall on upshifts rpm had dropped about 2000 whereas full throttle was only around 800...my guestimation on what happens is the pump is pumping 100gph(for a number) and immediately changes to 80(for a number) it produces a mass volume hole that the bypassing regulator on the end of the rail could not react fast enough to...I don't know the physics of why...I just saw it and can't see how it could have been cavitation if it would accelerate fine without a gear(RPM) change....someone on this list should be able to enlighten us though...(I bet it'll be you Greg after you think about it a while, I've seen you come up with some pretty brilliant stuff) ttyl - -Carl Summers - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.org]On Behalf Of Greg Hermann Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 4:27 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.org Subject: RE: Electric Fuel Pumps >Hi Greg, > Unless you plan on running some sort of large accumulator the >mechanical/gear driven pump will cause many tuning problems on shift as >engine rpm goes down and so does pump....fought that on that 1600hp boat >engine with the turbo 400.. the fuel pressure would drop to below 20 psi on >upshift and lean backfire....crazy thing was (not so crazy though, less >torque meant more drastic rpm changes on upshift)it was worse the easier you >were on the throttle so didn't notice it as bad until I was going back over >the driveability stuff after verifying full throttle....thank god for >datalogging....would have never found it...ended up with an elctric fuel >pump set up to run while in 1st and 2nd gear and shut off in third...got >that straightened out and no probs other than the normal retune from the >engine dyno to the real world...just some insight...ttyl >-Carl Summers Hi Carl-- Thanks for the tip! Hmmm. Gonna hafta think this one through. I am planning on using an accumulator on the intermediate pressure part of the fuel system--the FEED TO the mechanical pump. Had not thought about using one on the HP side of it, particularly cuz I was thinking of adjusting the rail pressure to suit varying engine operating conditions, and an accumulator on the HP side of the system would destroy the response time for these rail pressure changes. But I have a funny feeling that you were getting the anomalies on the HP side! This appears to be a fun puzzle--not real obvious to me why it was going on, but that doesn't mean it couldn't! Just almost seems to me that you had to have some cavitation at the inlet to the mechanical pump for this to happen, but ???? An electrical (positive displacement) pump will definitely recover from a suction cavitation event quicker than a mechanical one, cuz the motor will pick up speed as soon as the vapor is in the pump--which is not true with a mechanical pump. Was your ecu correcting injector PW for fuel rail pressure on the engine in question?? Greg > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:30:17 -0500 (EST) From: Mary or Stephen Burgess Subject: Sender: owner-diy_efi@xxx.org Can anyone tell me if Wolf 3D has a website or email address - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:27:38 -0700 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: RE: Electric Fuel Pumps >Hi Greg, > The controller I was using was an Autronics box....it has no feedback to >watch fuel pressure and adjust PW...The fuel pressure drop has always >happened on the Blown alcohol datalog stuff I have looked at when shifting >gears, and I noticed the rise in AFR upon full throttle shift when I was >datalogging this but was only about 3/4 of an AFR on the Horiba and if my >memory serves me was about .4 seconds....but, when it would almost stall on >upshifts rpm had dropped about 2000 whereas full throttle was only around >800...my guestimation on what happens is the pump is pumping 100gph(for a >number) and immediately changes to 80(for a number) it produces a mass >volume hole that the bypassing regulator on the end of the rail could not >react fast enough to...I don't know the physics of why...I just saw it and >can't see how it could have been cavitation if it would accelerate fine >without a gear(RPM) change....someone on this list should be able to >enlighten us though...(I bet it'll be you Greg after you think about it a >while, I've seen you come up with some pretty brilliant stuff) ttyl >-Carl Summers > (Blushing now!) Well--control valve sizing is an interesting ART, that's for sure. Bigger is _DEFINITELY_ NOT_ better! And I'm kind of inclined to think that you could need a rather differently sized relief valve port with a mechanically driven pump, on account of having the pump volume adjust automatically for engine speed-- Have to play with some numbers and see what flow rates are needed under various operating conditions. Also, Would be inclined to think in terms of putting the relief valve LOW on the rails, so it ALWAYS sees liquid, never vapor. Again--to keep it more consistent. Lots of difference between how much volume of vapor will flow through a relief port and how much volume of liquid at same pressure delta. Idea is to minimize the amount of motion the valve plug has to do to keep thing right. A properly "characterized" valve plug is pretty important too. Already fising to put a bleed orifice--or a float vent--at the high point(s) of the rails to take care of the vapor--instead of putting the relief valve high. Will ponder on this one a bit, for sure! This problem is not too different from getting a waste gate to do what you want in terms of controlling boost--- Greg - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:57:45 -0300 From: "Diego Martin Monteverde" Subject: RE: Haltech vs. Electromotive vs. Wolf 3D vs ??? [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] Thanks! It's good information. Please see below for mi comments/questions: - -----Mensaje original----- De: Greg Hermann Para: Diego Martin Monteverde Fecha: Mi_rcoles 9 de Febrero de 2000 23:54 Asunto: RE: Haltech vs. Electromotive vs. Wolf 3D vs ??? >>Hello Greg, >> >>Could you give me some comsiderations about the mentioned ECUs? >>I mean, what to look for in an ECU, or what are the weak and strong points >>that you know. >>Your experiences would be appreciated > >Hi Martin-- > >Here is a start at it! > >1. What processor do they use. The Motorola 68332 is a VERY capable one. > >2. What is the minimum incremental change in injector PW (pulse width) in u >(micro) seconds which the ecu is able to make. I think you would find that >the Haltec will only do 64 u-s increments, but that the Autronics box will >do 8 u-s increments! Worrying about this difference may sound silly, but >the finer tunability can be VERY significant in getting an engine to idle >decently. >(If you calculate approximately what you expect your injector PW will be at >idle for your engine, with the size injectors you will need for top end >power, and then calculate the % change in A/F ratio that either a 64 or an >8 u-s increment in that PW will make to the idle A/F ratio, you will soon >understand what I am concerned with here in terms of being able to tune the >engine to idle properly!) > >3. Does a unit have injector drivers capable of driving "peak and hold" >(low impedance) injectors or not. > >4. How many features and how easy to use is the software. > >5. Can the software make "on the fly" changes to the tuning of the engine? >(Can you change things while the engine is running?) > >6. How much input/output is the box capable of-- you may want to consider >whether it has inputs/outputs for the following: (and other questions) >Exhaust back pressure >Fuel pressure >Inlet air temperature >Fuel temperature >Barometric pressure >Ambient humidity >Exhaust gas temperature (how many channels?) >Vehicle speed input >Boost control output >Accelerometer (vehicle acceleration) input Do you know about some accelerometer with a scale fitted to read "normal" accelerations? I've only found +/- 4G, too much for tuning a non drag car. The same about any ECU with such an input? How does they work? They "stores" the acceleration value toghether with the rest of the ECU readings for later analisys or are able to do some adaptive optimization on line? Do you know any brand? > >How many injectors can it run independently of one another? > > (On a seriously high performance engine, it can be _VERY_ advantageous to >run two (staged) injectors per cylinder. My own preference would be to run >primary injectors of about 33% of the needed flow capacity, and secondary >ones of the remaining 67% of the needed capacity. Taking this approach can >have tremendous advantages in terms of giving an engine very good "street" >manners and improved fuel economy as well. > >How many ignition outputs does it have? (Enough to run a distributorless >system??) > >What kind of a laptop computer will you need to set up and tune the box >conveniently? >Can the unit do any data logging? >Is a true wide band O2 input an option for the unit? How many channels? Could you explain me the use of an O2 sensor in a sport application? Isn't it open loop? > >Is it capable of operating in a "closed loop" mode with a wide band O2 sensor? >(for instance, with the Federal Mogul "Speed Pro" (formerly the Fel Pro >Performance) box, one can program the box with the WBO2 option to run >closed loop to any target A/F ratio you wish to program it for!) > >How much "limp home" capability does the unit have? Sorry, what means "limp home" >Does the unit use easily available, mass production sensors, or the sensors >proprietary and expensive? > >Does the software for the box allow such things as limiting boost when the >vehicle is in a lower gear? >(If a box has an input for vehicle speed, it is relatively easy for the box >to compute what gear the transmission is in by comparing vehicle speed to >engine rpm. With a serious engine, limiting boost in lower gears can save >the transmission, the driveline, and the tires considerable distress and >damage!) > >Does the box have any traction control and/or rev limiting capabilities? > >Can you use the software to adjust the units injector and ignition timing >independently for each cylinder--so that you would have the capability of >finding the TRUE top dead center crank angle for each piston (with a dial >indicator and a degree wheel), and be able to adjust the box's timing >according to any slight errors in the engine's mechanical geometry? The last: Do you know something about "MOTEC"? I visited their site, and seems really serious. Thanks again Martin >> >>-----Mensaje original----- >>De: Greg Hermann >>Para: Diego Martin Monteverde >>Fecha: Mi_rcoles 9 de Febrero de 2000 00:46 >>Asunto: Re: Haltech vs. Electromotive vs. Wolf 3D vs ??? >> >> >>>>Hello, >>>> >>>>I'm trying to learn about the different commercial "programmable" >>electronic >>>>management systems that are currently on the market. >>>>I'm interested in those that are capable of both injection ans spark >>>>control. >>>> >>>>My idea is to know about the different features that they offer, strong >>and >>>>weak points. >>>>Up to now, I discovered three different units: Haltech, Electromotive and >>>>Wolf 3D. >>>> >>>>What I'm asking to the list are the different experiences that the members >>>>may have about these three systems or (I suppose) the lot of other ones >>that >>>>exist, known pros and cons of them or amy info in this way. >>>> >>>>I will appreciate any info that the group could give me. >>>> >>>>Thanks and regards, >>>> >>>>Martin >>> >>>Hi Martin-- >>> >>>Go to and check out Autronics. Their box is WAY >>>superior to any of the three you have mentioned. There are also some >>>excellent British boxes. >>> >>>Greg >>> >>> >>> > > > - ----- End of forwarded message from Diego Martin Monteverde ----- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 20:26:29 PST From: "mike mager" Subject: Re: TBI location Hi, Dan! I'm new to the list, but I thought that I would respond to your question: >I've now got as far as I'm in the process of deciding how to inject my >supercharged Fiat (4 cyl), and am in need of some experienced help. >Anyway my dilemma is where to locate the TBI . . . >. . .plain throttle body before s/c and mount a few injectors in the >manifold pointing into the head (almost port injection). >What I'm after is peoples thoughts on which method to use. A true port injection system avoids all that nasty 'wet flow' action, and maintains 'dry flow' (no fuel in the manifold or ports). The PowerPro series book (MotorBooks International) "Fuel Injection Tuning, Performance, And Modifications", Jeff Hartman, 1993, addresses many similar issues. One day of reading the list gives me great confidence in your having experienced help in getting it to work. 35 PSI boost - wow! Mike ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #60 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".