DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, February 19 2000 Volume 05 : Number 068 In this issue: Dual ign system? RE: ECU7/EFI RE: ECU7 RE: ECU7 Re: Dual ign system? Re: Dual ign system question Data I/O 29B device programmer for sale Re: Mass airflow sensors. RE: Mass airflow sensors. MUSTANG Mass airflow sensors. See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 17:05:24 +0000 From: "mike crane" Subject: Dual ign system? Hi Gar & Roger Coil joiners...are these Y connectors, ie two HT leads that feed one plug! Now for a dumb question, if a wastefire DIS system hits a plug , a coil ign hits the same plug at the same time, somewhere else on that engine the wasted spark hits the other plug it's paired to, and presumably the opposite side of the dizzy cap that the rotor is aimed at. So what happens, does the HT bridge in the dizzy cap, track through the rotor to the other plug? Does most of the energy not get dissipated through the plug (or earth/ground?) or is it tracking back up the coil ign coil and cooking something? Either way if it was a twin plug head it would not be the same issue! Apologies if this is way off the mark, my excuse is I'm a newbie! regards mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:38:26 -0800 From: "Al Lipper" Subject: RE: ECU7/EFI Ken, It's good to hear your working on an EFI project. Yes, the ECU7 does actually "learn" and remember the conditions it is operated under. It can have its tables changed as you see fit. You can also modify the program itself and how it uses the programs for extensive flexibility (after all, I've made the source code available). The system should work fine with turbos if you have the correct sensors and modify the base fuel table to allow MAPs above 100 (up to about 130 should do it, I believe). The system does not currently have electronic spark control, but probably will in the future. I hope this helps. Al > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Kelly [mailto:ken73@xxx.com] > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 6:36 AM > To: efi@xxx.org > Subject: ECU7/EFI > > > I've been lurking around reading on the DIY_EFI and GM_ECM pages for quite > some time and finally decided to take a look at your ECU7 project... > > Am I right in understanding that the ECU7 actually "learns" the parameters > and you can program them afterwards if you feel you need changes? I'm very > interested in this project, but at the same time I don't want to > get in over > my head. I'm interested in putting a TBI unit on my '73 Corvette - but I'm > also looking to put twin turbos on this same car. EFI is much > more accurate > (obviously) than a carburetor and doesn't suffer the same problems. I'm > wondering if it would be difficult to adapt the ECU7 to a > turbocharged car? > (Obviously you'd need a matching MAP sensor - 2 or 3 bar > depending on boost > amount.) > > I also noticed it doesn't have any provision for spark control - > not that my > car would need it, but I was curious if it was going to be a > provision later > on. > > Thanks for your time! > > Ken Kelly (#2) > > ken73@xxx.com > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:38:25 -0800 From: "Al Lipper" Subject: RE: ECU7 Ron, sorry but at this point the ECU7 system does not include electronic ignition. Al > -----Original Message----- > From: Roy [mailto:spectric@xxx.com] > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 3:53 AM > To: efi@xxx.org > Subject: ECU7 > > > Hi > > I am seeking more info on this system please. > > My application is for a 5 cylinder audi and wish to go > distributorless. > > Thanks Roy ( Spectric's Ltd ) > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:38:29 -0800 From: "Al Lipper" Subject: RE: ECU7 Steve, I imagine your first step is to build an ECU7 unit. It sounds like you'll need several PC boards made, given the number of vehicles you want to use it for. Unfortunately, the PCBs are one of the more expensive things to have done unless you know someone in the business (we got a discounted rate of $150 for 6 pairs of them). Please note that the schematics have recently changed, but the updates have not been incorporated into the PCB layout. If you have someone who does PC layouts, the changes are minor (though they were a pain to do by hand on the boards we already had made). If you are not in a rush, we will soon make the changes to the layout ourselves. Get your parts together (many are available from Jameco electronics pretty cheaply - www.jameco.com though the chips mostly have to come from distributors). Finally, you'll need the Blue Earth BASIC compiler. Set up your test vehicle/engine with injectors, sensors and an electric fuel pump and you should be able to get things running. Let me know what your plans are. Take care. Al > -----Original Message----- > From: LEONARD,STEVE [mailto:sleonard@xxx.com] > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 7:33 AM > To: Al Lipper > Subject: RE: ECU7 > > > AL, > Looks pretty promising! We are doing three different vehicles, the > Formula SAE(600cc engine-turbo charged), a clean burn Snowmobile > completion, > and a Super-mileage vehicle. All through SAE. All will require fuel > injection. > I feel you will receive allot of information, as we have freshmen to > PHD candidates in our club. We have over 100 members and are the largest > club on campus. > Let me know what you would like from us to get the ball rolling on > acquiring the ECU7. > > thanks again, > > Steve Leonard > Powertrain Engineer > University of Buffalo > Formula SAE > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Al Lipper [mailto:efi@xxx.org] > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 11:21 AM > To: LEONARD,STEVE; EFI > Subject: RE: ECU7 > > > Steve, > I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can. Sensor setups > are > entirely user-definable. The program source code is available to > you, so it > is not just a matter of changing data in tables - you can actually change > the way the data is used. In fact, you can re-assign inputs or add new > sensors if you like (perhaps you might want an intake air temp. or knock > sensor). There are a total of 8 analog inputs, though only 5 are used at > the moment (the other 3 are available on the connector for whatever you > like). Currently used sensor inputs are: RPM, MAP, oxygen, coolant temp., > TPS and volts. ECU7 is currently set up to fire up to 4 batches of > injectors (though this can be expanded by adding more drivers). Since you > may modify the program, you can set the timing and sequence of these > injectors as you see fit. For data aquisition, it has a serial PC > interface. I have mine setup to continually output operational parameters > for whatever aspect I'm working on and I capture these is a file for later > review (or plotting in Excel). If you wanted the unit to capture data > internally, it has 128K of RAM (though only 64K is addressable without > modification), of which about 6K is currently used - the remainder is > available for whatever you want. Incidentally, the RAM is battery backed > and will retain its data for about 5 years without external > power. Overall, > ECU7 has been designed with expansion and flexibility in mind. If someone > wanted to eliminate features later, in order to reduce size or > cost, that is > easy to do, but for the moment, all features we thought could > reasonably be > used have been implemented. > > We are currently devoting considerable time to the development of the ECU7 > system, and would be happy to share knowledge (and gain from your > experiences) if you decide to persue the project. > > > Best wishes, > > > Al > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: LEONARD,STEVE [mailto:sleonard@xxx.com] > > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 5:26 AM > > To: Al Lipper > > Subject: RE: ECU7 > > > > > > AL, > > In fact our who club is made up Electrical, Mechanical, and Computer > > engineers, so we prefer something flexible. Just some questions, are the > > sensor setups user definable, ie Map sensors, TPS etc. Does the > ECU7 have > > sequential capabilities? How many analog and/or digital outputs? Does it > > have data acquisition or board internal memory. > > We are VERY interested in your unit, please get back to us. > > > > regards > > > > Steve Leonard > > Powertrain Engineer > > University of Buffalo > > Formula SAE > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Al Lipper [mailto:alipper@xxx.org] > > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 7:32 PM > > To: LEONARD,STEVE > > Subject: RE: ECU7 > > > > > > Yes Steve, I'm sure it can be adapted. If you have members who > specialize > > in electronics and programming, it could be used in that > application. If > > you don't have that expertise among your membership, I might suggest an > > off-the-shelf system like Holley's DFI. Good luck. > > > > > > Al > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: LEONARD,STEVE [mailto:sleonard@xxx.com] > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 12:25 PM > > > To: efi@xxx.org > > > Subject: ECU7 > > > > > > > > > Mr. Lipper, > > > > > > 'I've been lurking on the DYI-efi mailing list and saw your > > > postings. I am student at the University of Buffalo, our > club, a student > > > chapter of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) www.sae.org. We are > > building a small race car for a annual race held in Detroit, MI. > > These cars > > built and funded by students and are built to "Formula SAE" > requirements. > > The engines are 600cc and under, therein lies our problem. We > are using a > > 600cc motorcycle engine with a Aerodyne Turbocharger. We need a fuel > > injection system for this as we short on time to develop our > own. Can your > > system adapt to these small displacement high RPM engines? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Steve Leonard > > Powertrain Engineer > > U of Buffalo > > Formula SAE > > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:21:52 -0600 (CST) From: Roger Heflin Subject: Re: Dual ign system? On Fri, 18 Feb 2000, mike crane wrote: > Hi Gar & Roger > > Coil joiners...are these Y connectors, ie two HT leads that feed one plug! > > Now for a dumb question, if a wastefire DIS system hits a plug , a coil ign > hits the same plug at the same time, somewhere else on that engine the > wasted spark hits the other plug it's paired to, and presumably the opposite > side of the dizzy cap that the rotor is aimed at. > > So what happens, does the HT bridge in the dizzy cap, track through the > rotor to the other plug? Does most of the energy not get dissipated through > the plug (or earth/ground?) or is it tracking back up the coil ign coil and > cooking something? > > Either way if it was a twin plug head it would not be the same issue! > Apologies if this is way off the mark, my excuse is I'm a newbie! > I think the system would be safe on the wasted spark with both hooked together, as the dist would have a significant air gap. Now what it does when the primary plug fires (from one or the other system) to the other system, I don't know. Roger - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:27:19 -0600 (CST) From: Roger Heflin Subject: Re: Dual ign system question On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Garfield Willis wrote: > On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:54:31 -0600 (CST) Roger Heflin > wrote: > > >On my car right now I have two fully functional ignition systems. > >Both have coils and plug wires, on one system is setup to generate > >spark at one time. Is it possible to have one wire running to a plug > >and two different systems feeding that wire with spark? Would one > >coil sparking backfeed the other in a bad manner and possibly damage > >one system or both systems? > > > >One system is a DIS system and the other is a basically a classic > >coil/distributor type setup. I would expect both systems to fire at > >roughly the same time, but I could adjust the dis system to fire > >several degrees after the optimal fireing position that would be taken > >by the coil/distrubitor setup. > > WHOA, I just noticed this. You're talking about joining a dizzy IGN with > a DIS/wastefire system!!?? I wasn't following the thread closely enough, > I see. If your DIS system is a wastefire system, I take back what I said > about the MSD coil-joiners being suitable. I don't know of a way to > combine these two types of systems, because the dizzy IGN wants to fire > the plugs all in the same polarity, and the DIS wants to fire the plugs > in pairs of opposite polarity. There exist coil-joiners for waste-fire > systems, if you want to combine two of those IGN systems in a redundant > pair, as well as the MSD joiners, if you want to join two dizzy-based > systems (one dizzy w/two pickups & coils), but I don't know of any way > to mix up the two (DIS with dizzy) when firing the same set of plugs. > > Shoulda stayed out of something I wasn't paying close attention to. > Argh. Sorry for the mislead. So on a dis system on of the two towers is -50kv (ref to engine ground) and the other is +50kv? I could see there being a bit of an issue with that, esp if both systems fired a the same time. So anything wired on one of those -plugs would always fire a -50kv pulse, so depending on what the stock coil is firing, 4 cylinders firings would always have the wrong polarity. Just in thinking about this, I am finding out alot about how each ign system really works. It sounds like the easiest way would be a plug with two completely separate electrodes/insulators/connectors, which would be not dooable in the given space. It is starting to sound like to switch I deactivate the power to one ign system and switch plug wires. Roger - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:08:29 -0600 From: steve ravet Subject: Data I/O 29B device programmer for sale Here's your chance to own a real antique. It's got a Logic Pak attached that will allow it to program GALs and PALs, and I think some microcontrollers. It WON'T read or write EPROMS unless you get a PROM adapter for it, cost is about $100. If you're an atari fanatic or old arcade game collector then this guy can program the old bipolar EPROMS with the PROM adapter, which most newer programmers can't. I can scrounge up a list of actual devices supported if anyone is really curious. Anyway, I was going to put it on ebay starting at $45, if anyone here wants it for that price let me know, otherwise it's going up for grabs on ebay. I should mention that it powers up and passes the self test, but I've never actually used it so I can't guarantee it's functionality. Please help me free up space on my workbench! - --steve - -- Steve Ravet steve.ravet@xxx.com Advanced Risc Machines, Inc. www.arm.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:45:04 -0600 From: "Brian Franchuk" Subject: Re: Mass airflow sensors. Hi, I'm also working on converting my AFM to MAF but I've ran into a couple problems that I don't see mentioned here. The response time of the AFM to changes in air flow is almost instantaneous. However, the MAF (GM hot film sensor) requires about 200ms to fully react to a change in flow. If I map the MAF signal to an equivalent AFM voltage, the car runs great, as long as I don't stab the gas. If I do, I basically go very lean for 200ms resulting in a very nasty head jerking event. My thought was to use the derivative of the TPS signal to compensate during the 200ms. Unfortunately, my car doesn't have a TPS. If there any way to accomplish what I want or do I have to add a TPS? Any thoughts? BTW the car is an 88 BMW 535i if that helps. Thanks. Brian Franchuk - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:03:35 -0800 From: Carl Summers Subject: RE: Mass airflow sensors. Hi, I have been working on a MAF conversion kit for about 8 months now, and am planning on tps for AE enrichment as well...on the cars with no tps sensor I had planned on using a MAP sensor so I could add AE by a delta/map type table....Have you thought about trying thisor tried it???? - -Carl Summers Click on this link below to see the easiest way to handle internet transactions. https://secure.paypal.com/refer/pal=drsagan%40pacbell.net - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.org]On Behalf Of Brian Franchuk Sent: Friday, February 18, 2000 10:45 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.org Subject: Re: Mass airflow sensors. Hi, I'm also working on converting my AFM to MAF but I've ran into a couple problems that I don't see mentioned here. The response time of the AFM to changes in air flow is almost instantaneous. However, the MAF (GM hot film sensor) requires about 200ms to fully react to a change in flow. If I map the MAF signal to an equivalent AFM voltage, the car runs great, as long as I don't stab the gas. If I do, I basically go very lean for 200ms resulting in a very nasty head jerking event. My thought was to use the derivative of the TPS signal to compensate during the 200ms. Unfortunately, my car doesn't have a TPS. If there any way to accomplish what I want or do I have to add a TPS? Any thoughts? BTW the car is an 88 BMW 535i if that helps. Thanks. Brian Franchuk - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 03:06:07 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Wilkinson Subject: MUSTANG Mass airflow sensors. CAN YOU POSSIBLY ATTACH THAT SPREAD SHEET TO AN E-MAIL FOR ME TOO... I COULD USE THAT TOO.. THANKS... Chris > > I have now come into possession of an Excel > spreadsheet with the flowbench > results from 11 Mustang MAFs.. many many thanks to > the individual who > provided it. This is exact what I needed, so I feel > that I can proceed from > here. Thanks to everyone who sent me suggestions > and information! > > Cheers, > Andrew > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #68 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".