DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, March 7 2000 Volume 05 : Number 089 In this issue: Re: List member virus alert Re: Subaru TBI Any electronically controllable gas regulators ? Re: Any electronically controllable gas regulators ? Re: Subaru TBI AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) Crank angle sensor Re: Subaru TBI Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) Need some injector info Re: Need some injector info RE: Need some injector info Newby question - am I even going about this the right way? Re: Newby question - am I even going about this the right way? Re: Newby question - am I even going about this the right way? Re: Subaru TBI Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #88 Re: Newby question - am I even going about this the right way? sources for bosch LSU sensor? Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #88 Turbo throttles (was Re: anti-lag) Re: Crank angle sensor Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 08:33:31 EST From: ECMnut@xxx.com Subject: Re: List member virus alert > http://vil.nai.com/vil/wm98500.asp Thanks Mike, The URL was very good and right to the point. Man, talk about swallowing the hook! I ran it several times, then sent him a message, saying it didn't do anything.. 8-P It looks as if you have to have Outlook open & running for the virus to work. I have AO-H*LL, and double-clicked from win-explorer, and none of the registry or INI mods occured. Thanks again, Mike V - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 06:12:07 -0800 From: "John Dammeyer" Subject: Re: Subaru TBI >dzorde@xxx.com writes: > >>Just down the road from me, good to see some fellow West Aussies on the list. > >That makes four! > >>On a different note. I just picked up a Subaru TBI (centre point injection, >>think its of a 1.8L import motor), the injector is a 1.6 ohm unit. Can someone >>tell me if this has to be driven as P/H or whether it can be driven as saturated >>(if so does it need a resistor ?) > >No resistor required. Injectors are normally driven by sinking >current through them; no "ballast" required. The duty cycle of >pulsing determines the flow. No fancy timing requirements. It's >just a cheap way of implementing an electronically-controlled >carburettor. ;-) Yikes! or How to screw up an injector in one easy pulse. This is a PeakHold type injector. 13.8V / 1.6 Ohms is almost 9 Amps. Injectors normally don't take more than about 1A. You have a choice on how to drive a PH injector. You can place a Ballast resistor in series to limit the current to about 1A. This has the effect of driving the injector hard until the current through the resistor is high enough to reduce the voltage across the injector and therefore limit the current. You still end up with a fast turn on time. Alternatively you can use a PH type injector driver or a circuit with a comparator and a current sensing resistor (0.1 Ohm) that reduces the current once it reaches 1A or a timer based driver that reduces the current after n microseconds which is equivalent to the time it takes for the injector current to reach 1A. Only if the injector resistance is around 12 Ohms can you apply 12 volts directly to it. John Dammeyer - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 22:34:42 From: "Mike (Perth, WA)" Subject: Any electronically controllable gas regulators ? Hi chaps, (As I'm new to this group, I apologise for so many postings so soon, still gathering info - tah)... Petrol engine fuel injectors are dead easy to control from a micro, is there a corrollary for any gas injection equipment etc. ? ie. Is there a (readily available) gas injection nozzle operable from a 12v PWM signal and/or a gas regulator compensation for manifold pressure, (Given the flow pressure differences I would think it straightforward), for example for turbo engines thats comparable to that simple fuel pressure regulator used on many petrol cars ? When I go ahead with my EFI project for my car (to replace existing ECU), I would like the option of extending the control fully to a bifuel gas system - LPG at first, then moving to CNG soon after and all this with on load changeover between the two fuels Don't ask for much ;-) Tah, Rgds ~`:o) Mike Massen Trading as "Network Power Systems" and "Network Computers" Perth, Western Australia Ph +61 8 9444 8961 Fx +618 9264 8229 (fax -> email) Products/Personal/Client web area at http://www.wantree.com.au/~erazmus (Current pics - trip to Malaysia to install equipment in jungle power site) Some say there is no magic but, all things begin with thought then it becomes academic, then some poor slob works out a practical way to implement all that theory, this is called Engineering - for most people another form of magic. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 15:28:58 +0100 From: Uptodate Subject: Re: Any electronically controllable gas regulators ? > Hi chaps, > > (As I'm new to this group, I apologise for so many postings so soon, still > gathering info - tah)... > > Petrol engine fuel injectors are dead easy to control from a micro, is > there a corrollary for any gas injection equipment etc. ? > > ie. Is there a (readily available) gas injection nozzle operable from > a 12v PWM signal and/or a gas regulator compensation for manifold pressure, > (Given the flow pressure differences I would think it straightforward), > for example for turbo engines thats comparable to that simple fuel > pressure regulator used on many petrol cars ? > > When I go ahead with my EFI project for my car (to replace existing ECU), > I would like the option of extending the control fully to a bifuel gas > system - LPG at first, then moving to CNG soon after and all this with > on load changeover between the two fuels Don't ask for much ;-) > A friend of mine is building a LPG injection system for liguid LPG. Try him on kpschouten@xxx.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Mar 100 22:49:49 +0800 (WST) From: Bernd Felsche Subject: Re: Subaru TBI John Dammeyer writes: >>dzorde@xxx.com writes: >>>On a different note. I just picked up a Subaru TBI (centre point injection, >>>think its of a 1.8L import motor), the injector is a 1.6 ohm unit. Can someone >>>tell me if this has to be driven as P/H or whether it can be driven as saturated >>>(if so does it need a resistor ?) >> >>No resistor required. Injectors are normally driven by sinking >>current through them; no "ballast" required. The duty cycle of >>pulsing determines the flow. No fancy timing requirements. It's >>just a cheap way of implementing an electronically-controlled >>carburettor. ;-) >Yikes! or How to screw up an injector in one easy pulse. >This is a PeakHold type injector. 13.8V / 1.6 Ohms is almost 9 Amps. Injectors normally >don't take more than about 1A. You have a choice on how to drive a PH injector. You can OOPS. Sorry. It's just me jumping in without understanding the question entirely. I have (obviously) yet to learn the vagaries of PeakHold. Looks like I've mis-understood something previously. Consider me castigated. >Only if the injector resistance is around 12 Ohms can you apply 12 volts directly to it. My cursory study of the 332 drivers indicate 4A to be a typical drive current. No "ballast" resistors were shown on the schematic - though there is current sensing which I now understand is to control the peak current. - -- Real Name: Bernd Felsche Email: nospam.bernie@xxx.au http://www.perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie - Private HP - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 22:54:57 From: "Mike (Perth, WA)" Subject: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) At 10:28 AM 7/03/2000 +0800, Bernd Felsche wrote: >Similarly, to accurately measure the airflow, you need a fast >pressure measurement at the inlet as well. There are pulsations in >the airflow even with (turbo-)supercharging. Transducers will >typically not give you enough information at high speed. mmm - not entirely understanding of this AFM/turbo backpressure sideline. Surely given these facts:- a. Instantaneous speed changes are rare (idle to 5000rpm in 0.5sec and likewise - my definition etc;) b. AFM some distance upstream from inlet valve/turbo pulsations will average out flow and even if there are pulsations at the hot wire - the average wire current will measure average AF. Then, surely what the heck difference does the backpressure make other then reduce the flow of air into the engine. I mean in a previous post its suggested the ECU needs to know turbo backpressure so it can correct for AFM signal to determine how much air actually fills the chambers. Well, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the AFM do this anyway ? If the cylinders are not filling because the engine revs are high but the turbo hasn't yet spooled up then the AFM will reflect this *and* as the turbo does spool up the air flow will increase, AFM will show that. Taking fact (a) above you have an average AFM over all cylinders and a change in engine speed much slower then the data acquisition cycle and algorithm time through the ECU. And (b) handles the total/average of all chambers - given they should be the same :) So, in my book (and brain) you don't need to worry about instantaneous pulsations to find instantaneous air flow changes to meter for air flow because the single AFM will do that and the chambers not filling due to backpressure will be reflected by an altered AFM reading. I'm looking for a satisfactory rationale as to why its perceived the AFM doesn't measure changes in cylinder filling due to turbo backpressure ? Tah :) Mike Perth, Western Australia - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 08:47:18 -0600 From: "Clint S." Subject: Crank angle sensor This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF8811.BEE89B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have an Accel DFI which is very simular to most GM ECM's in operation = . I currently have a magnetic pickup and 4 wire igntion module for = electronic spark timing . I want to go with coil packs later on, the DFI = can then be switched over to a Buick GN system . My Nissan 280zxt motor = had a crank trigger and hall sensor already, it has (3) 120degree signal = teeth and pickup, and has (90) 1degree signal teeth and 2 sensors for = those . It is a Hall Effect sensor with 3 pickups total . Can I use this = signal to trigger my DFI and slap some coilpacks on for igntion ? The = cam sensor should be an easy modification to distributor . . - ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF8811.BEE89B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have an Accel DFI which is very simular to most GM = ECM's in=20 operation . I currently have a magnetic pickup and 4 wire igntion module = for=20 electronic spark timing . I want to go with coil packs later on, the DFI = can=20 then be switched over to a Buick GN system . My Nissan 280zxt motor had = a crank=20 trigger and hall sensor already, it has (3) 120degree signal teeth and = pickup,=20 and has (90) 1degree signal teeth and 2 sensors for those . It is a Hall = Effect=20 sensor with 3 pickups total . Can I use this signal to trigger my DFI = and slap=20 some coilpacks on for igntion ? The cam sensor should be an easy = modification to=20 distributor . .
- ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF8811.BEE89B80-- - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 23:13:17 From: "Mike (Perth, WA)" Subject: Re: Subaru TBI At 06:12 AM 7/03/2000 -0800, you wrote: >>No resistor required. Injectors are normally driven by sinking >>current through them; no "ballast" required. The duty cycle of >>pulsing determines the flow. No fancy timing requirements. It's >>just a cheap way of implementing an electronically-controlled >>carburettor. ;-) > >Yikes! or How to screw up an injector in one easy pulse. Yeah good point, when I first read the post I assumed he meant no fancy gear off the end of the injector driver IC... >This is a PeakHold type injector. 13.8V / 1.6 Ohms is almost 9 Amps. Aren't all injectors in use in last 20 years or so equivalent, ie. Pullin current is far more then hold current. >Injectors normally >don't take more than about 1A. You have a choice on how to drive a PH injector. You can >place a Ballast resistor in series to limit the current to about 1A. This has the effect >of driving the injector hard until the current through the resistor is high enough to >reduce the voltage across the injector and therefore limit the current. Sorry can't see that - surely the ballast resistor reduces 'sharpness' of the initial pull in by limiting it to 1A hence also slower to pull in ? > You still end up >with a fast turn on time. Can't see that at all - thats why we have injector drivers - or do we only need injector driver ICs for specific types of injectors and not PH ones ? > Alternatively you can use a PH type injector driver or a >circuit with a comparator and a current sensing resistor (0.1 Ohm) that reduces the >current once it reaches 1A or a timer based driver that reduces the current after n >microseconds which is equivalent to the time it takes for the injector current to reach >1A. A variation of a infra-pulse circuit comes to mind, charge cap to 12v, use this to supply current to injector *hard*, but main power comes from lowered voltage - like 5v to keep injector open after pulse dies away, bit like a CDI, >Only if the injector resistance is around 12 Ohms can you apply 12 volts directly to it. The bosch injectors I used for my EFI project in 82 were around 8 ohms or so (IIRC) and pullin time varied wildly unless driven hard with 12v, anything less - even 11v and the pullin time changed noticeably. Power consumption and injector reliability (back then) wasn't an issue so I only used the 12v raw battery rail. For maximum reliability for any injector I'd look at the precise pullin current for minimum time to ensure pullin and the hold current issue etc... Incidentally, most injectors I've seen don't use back EMF diodes, you should see the 28v spikes on the *battery* - WTF! - no wonder we need surge suppresion on heaps of other vehicle electronics... Rgds Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:15:40 +0100 From: "Espen Hilde" Subject: Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) Hi ! What I tryed to say was that the AFM cant give info for the retard of ignition advance that the backpressure is indicating. AFM is not fast enough for a high rpm engine with big turbo, the engine can dubble the hp in 250rpm change. In a oem application ...no problem. But...how much air thats going into the cambers and how much it consumes trou the AFM is two different things. When the turbo is very effichent the boost is higher than the backpressure, with a high overlap cam you loose a lot of air. And fuel ,if you dont have sequential efi. Ignition advance has the same effect as when you start to push the pedal when you are riding your bike, if you push to late the pedal hits the buttom before you are finished . Air fuelratio and ignition advance cant be separated they have to fit each other . I cant prove it to you but when the waste gate is suddely opening for boost adjustment the cylinder filling of the cylinders is increased before the turbine slows down. can the AFM measure the increase these maybe few cylinders get? The backpressure is to slow to maybe..... > Surely given these facts:- > > a. Instantaneous speed changes are rare > > > I'm looking for a satisfactory rationale as to why its perceived the AFM > doesn't measure changes in cylinder filling due to turbo backpressure ? The AFM does measure ,but if the application demands the use of MAP you have the problem. The AFM is not indicating backpressure to be used for calculating max advance with reliability. Espen - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 14:17:58 -0800 From: Carl Summers Subject: Need some injector info Hi Folks, I have searched the archives and my paperwork as well and cannot cross this injector number....These are Ford/Bosch injectors...the Ford number is F4SE-BIA...Bosch number is 280150967.....anyone happen to know the flow rate of these???Thanks for the help. - -Carl Summers - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:03:00 -0500 From: "Swayze" Subject: Re: Need some injector info how about 36#/hr. try this; http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/fuelsystem/injflow.html byE Mike Swayze mswayze@xxx.com kswayze@xxx.net ....... > F4SE-BIA...Bosch number is 280150967.....anyone happen to know the flow rate > of these???Thanks for the help. > -Carl Summers - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 15:18:50 -0800 From: Carl Summers Subject: RE: Need some injector info Thanks Mike, Great source for injector flows....ttyl - -Carl Summers - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.org]On Behalf Of Swayze Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 3:03 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.org Subject: Re: Need some injector info how about 36#/hr. try this; http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/fuelsystem/injflow.html byE Mike Swayze mswayze@xxx.com kswayze@xxx.net ....... > F4SE-BIA...Bosch number is 280150967.....anyone happen to know the flow rate > of these???Thanks for the help. > -Carl Summers - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 19:31:32 -0500 From: Matt Cramer Subject: Newby question - am I even going about this the right way? I have a '66 Dodge Dart with a 225 Slant Six that I wish to convert to multi-port EFI on a budget, but I'm really not sure where to begin. Should I try to find a single suitable donor car, grab the injectors, sensors, throttle body, and computer off of it and try to adapt them to my engine? Or is it something much more complicated? If the single donor is a good idea, is there any particular donor car you would suggest? Matt Cramer - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:37:57 -0600 From: "John C." Subject: Re: Newby question - am I even going about this the right way? I would look at ford straight sixes with FI..... - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Cramer" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2000 6:31 PM Subject: Newby question - am I even going about this the right way? > I have a '66 Dodge Dart with a 225 Slant Six that I wish to convert to > multi-port EFI on a budget, but I'm really not sure where to begin. Should > I try to find a single suitable donor car, grab the injectors, sensors, > throttle body, and computer off of it and try to adapt them to my engine? > Or is it something much more complicated? If the single donor is a good > idea, is there any particular donor car you would suggest? > > Matt Cramer > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 19:44:56 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: Newby question - am I even going about this the right way? Start with research, the archives have lots of info., I lean toward gm just since that's what I'm used too, so kinda bear that in mind. Often the various gm ecms are referred to by their last 3 digits. If you were to hunt around and search sensors, and 730 would be a good place to start. Yes to gathering parts off of one donor. Also, think finding replacement parts on a Sun Grumpy > I have a '66 Dodge Dart with a 225 Slant Six that I wish to convert to > multi-port EFI on a budget, but I'm really not sure where to begin. Should > I try to find a single suitable donor car, grab the injectors, sensors, > throttle body, and computer off of it and try to adapt them to my engine? > Or is it something much more complicated? If the single donor is a good > idea, is there any particular donor car you would suggest? > > Matt Cramer > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:33:20 +0800 From: dzorde@xxx.com Subject: Re: Subaru TBI >Date: Tue, 7 Mar 100 10:46:38 +0800 (WST) >From: Bernd Felsche >Subject: Re: Subaru TBI > >>On a different note. I just picked up a Subaru TBI (centre point injection, >>think its of a 1.8L import motor), the injector is a 1.6 ohm unit. Can someone >>tell me if this has to be driven as P/H or whether it can be driven as saturated >>(if so does it need a resistor ?) > >No resistor required. Injectors are normally driven by sinking >current through them; no "ballast" required. The duty cycle of >pulsing determines the flow. No fancy timing requirements. It's >just a cheap way of implementing an electronically-controlled >carburettor. ;-) True, but at only 1.6ohm, this poor little thing would be sinking around 8.5A if operated as a standard saturated injector. Whereas if operated as P/H this current would drop back to 1A or so after switch on and just hold it open. I'd prefer to operate it as saturated as this is what my ECU is designed for, but I don't want to fry the injector. >You may be better served with a multi-point injection system. The >TBI system you're using is probably limited to delivering enough >fuel for maybe 75kW. The 5 port head design (1 inlet, 4 exhaust) doesn't allow for port injection unless I make some extremely radical head design changes, to physically fit the injectors in the head (going to be extremely hard to weld). I can always add a 2nd staged injector, the ECU has the facility for it. Could even add this before the intercooler to get a bit more of a cooling effect. Dan dzorde@xxx.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:53:49 -0800 (PST) From: dennis Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #88 >The speed of sound (Mach 1) varies with the square root of the absolute >temperature of a gas, NOT with its pressure. So--if it is NOT intercooled, >you need somewhat longer runners to get the same effect. The pulses will be >pretty well proportional to the density, thus stronger. > >You might also want somewhat larger runners--because the friction loss in a >tube is also proportional to the density of the gas--but friction loss >would be the same % pressure loss if boosted with the same size runners. > >Greg > *Thanks Greg!* My Encyclopedia Britannica said that too:) I just wondered if there was more to it than that. I appreciate the input! The car is intercooled, soon to be water to air intercooled. This is in a drag only car that will be using dry ice in the resevoir to supercool the intake charge. I have heard of people with similar setups actually getting below ambient temp at full boost the whole 1/4mile. I guess this would then negate the variables caused from the increase in air temp. Being an engine that will never see lower than 3500rpm, I am leaning towards shorter runners, something like 6 inches from valve to plenum is convenient, and a plenum that is 90% of displacement. Sound good? dennis >Greetings! > >I'm curious, what sort of racing, and what peak boost? > >Mike It is a 1/4 mile drag race setup in a Dodge Charger Shelby FWD with an automatic. It is setup with 18-20psi depending on atmospheric conditions, gas available, and such. Best et so far is 13.43@xxx. Thanks, dennis >Hi! >I have seen setups with 2 trottles ,one in front of turbo and one after. >The compressor spinns much easier in lower pressure. >This was on a dirttrack rally car. >I have tryed carb in front of turbo and the adjustability of the output of >the engine was much better. >After the trottle is open I think the wastegate should be controlled by TPS >possition.Adjusting the boost by increasing trottle. > Espen >- Espen, you've been quite helpful! I've heard of people using one way valves in paralell with the turbo charger before. This two throttle setup would do the same thing I suppose? My boost is controlled by throttle opening:-) Carbs and turbos scare me when mixed! I've thought of using an electronic Blow Off Valve that stays open while spooling the turbo on the line, and imediately closes when you let off of the brake in order to attain more boost off of the line. Currently, the car will push through the brakes, causing a red-light with anything more than 9psi. Although the boost gauge would read 0psi when this BOV is open, and I'm afraid of overspinning the turbo while brake-boosting. One of those turbine speed sensors would be cool, but they don't fit into my budget. Any ideas? dennis _____________________________________________________________ Email Powered by Everyone.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 19:55:42 -0500 From: Frederic Breitwieser Subject: Re: Newby question - am I even going about this the right way? > I try to find a single suitable donor car, grab the injectors, sensors, > throttle body, and computer off of it and try to adapt them to my engine? > Or is it something much more complicated? If the single donor is a good > idea, is there any particular donor car you would suggest? Well, there were no slant six EFI engines that I am aware of, but as always, I am often corrected here on little factoids like that :) However, all is not lost. "On the cheap" I would take to mean no Haltech, DFI, Electromotive or other aftermarket system. Cool. Now, its a matter of finding a suitable donor from your local junkyard. My recommendation would be to find a six cylinder TBI car in the junkyard, preferably chrysler, but if not, GM could be adapted. Sensor holes can be rethreaded, wires can be changed, but the most difficult graft is the crank position sensor. TBI systems, especially the older ones, aren't as critical if the sensor is off... as long as the fuel enters with the air into the TBI intake (which would be your slant six intake, with an adaptor plate where the carb goes, with the TBI carb installed upon it. A little creativity and you could tap a crank sensor signal off your distributor coil (12V side) with some conditioning. Olds 3.0L, Fiero's, V6 Saturns, etc, might be good choices. I would normally say "check the DIYEFI" archives, but unfortunately they aren't up at the moment seemingly, I checked. I converted my 400cid stroker (451 cid) to EFI, and you might have fun trying to duplicate my efforts for your slant six. I've only updated the intake pictures and descriptions, I have a lot more information to put there. I did actually start the engine (on a dyno) using the 149 GM ECM. http://xephic.dynip.com/dodge/dodge.html <-- main site http://www.xephic.dynip.com/dodge/383intake.htm <-- intake pictures - -- Frederic Breitwieser Xephic Technology 769 Sylvan Ave #9 Bridgeport CT 06606 Tele: (203) 372-2707 Fax: (603) 372-1147 Web: http://xephic.dynip.com/ - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 16:48:12 -0800 From: "Jacky Chu" Subject: sources for bosch LSU sensor? Does anyone one know of any place that sells the Bosch LSU O2 sensor. The marking on the sensor said: LSU 4 966011 0 258 006 065 020 I am looking to buy 5 to 10 of them for replacement part on our dyno. Sorry that this is not efi related. but I figure this would be the place to find such information. I looked through the archives already, but didn't find anything. thanks, Jacky Chu Yoshimura R&D of America www.yoshimura-rd.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 18:51:07 -0700 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #88 >>The speed of sound (Mach 1) varies with the square root of the absolute >>temperature of a gas, NOT with its pressure. So--if it is NOT intercooled, >>you need somewhat longer runners to get the same effect. The pulses will be >>pretty well proportional to the density, thus stronger. >> >>You might also want somewhat larger runners--because the friction loss in a >>tube is also proportional to the density of the gas--but friction loss >>would be the same % pressure loss if boosted with the same size runners. >> >>Greg > >> >*Thanks Greg!* My Encyclopedia Britannica said that too:) I just wondered >if there was more to it than that. I appreciate the input! The car is >intercooled, soon to be water to air intercooled. This is in a drag only >car that will be using dry ice in the resevoir to supercool the intake >charge. I have heard of people with similar setups actually getting below >ambient temp at full boost the whole 1/4mile. I guess this would then >negate the variables caused from the increase in air temp. Being an engine >that will never see lower than 3500rpm, I am leaning towards shorter >runners, something like 6 inches from valve to plenum is convenient, and a >plenum that is 90% of displacement. Sound good? Plenum volume sounds good, runners sound rather short. I would think more like nine or ten inches--- Greg - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 20:04:34 -0800 From: clayb Subject: Turbo throttles (was Re: anti-lag) Interesting subject. I'm debating what to do with my throttle setup, and have been considering the merits of pre and post turbo throttle bodies. I currently have pre-turbo throttles courtesy of the old Holley carbs. Why should I switch? It would seem the pre-turbo throttle would allow the compressor to spin in low pressure, during transitions to light throttle, and back to heavy throttle again. This should reduce lag on throttle reapplication.(This isn't that great of an issue for me, anyway.) Also, no blow-off valve is needed What are the merits of post-turbo, and combination pre- and post-turbo throttles? - - Clay Espen Hilde wrote: > Hi! > I have seen setups with 2 trottles ,one in front of turbo and one after. > The compressor spinns much easier in lower pressure. > This was on a dirttrack rally car. > I have tryed carb in front of turbo and the adjustability of the output of > the engine was much better. > After the trottle is open I think the wastegate should be controlled by TPS > possition.Adjusting the boost by increasing trottle. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 20:13:53 -0800 From: clayb Subject: Re: Crank angle sensor What do you mean by "four wire" ignition? A distributorless module (like Ford EDIS, and other OEM units) that drives 2, 3 or 4 coils? You should be ready to go. Generally, this module will directly accept cam pos to sync the firing order to a crank trigger, which you already have. I don't believe the DFI does the "low voltage distributor" function, and you've not described if you have this component already. - - Clay "Clint S." wrote: > I have an Accel DFI which is very simular to most GM ECM's in > operation . I currently have a magnetic pickup and 4 wire igntion > module for electronic spark timing . I want to go with coil packs > later on, the DFI can then be switched over to a Buick GN system . My > Nissan 280zxt motor had a crank trigger and hall sensor already, it > has (3) 120degree signal teeth and pickup, and has (90) 1degree signal > teeth and 2 sensors for those . It is a Hall Effect sensor with 3 > pickups total . Can I use this signal to trigger my DFI and slap some > coilpacks on for igntion ? The cam sensor should be an easy > modification to distributor . . - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 20:19:06 -0800 From: clayb Subject: Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) Espen Hilde wrote: > What I tryed to say was that the AFM cant give info for the retard of > ignition advance that the backpressure is indicating. > AFM is not fast enough for a high rpm engine with big turbo, the engine can > dubble the hp in 250rpm change. > In a oem application ...no problem. Your points serve to illustrate a less-than-well-known (?) fact that sophisticated engine management contributes more efficiency and HP to a turbo motor, than to a NA motor. - - Clay (not that it isn't worthwhile on an NA motor...) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:53:47 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) Compared to what Mechanical, FI, Carbbies?. Sweeping statements are often wrong. AFM are probably the least accurate of the air flow sensors, or at least the most restrictive. In the archives at the GN Ttype there are statements from actual dyno testing where even a MAF sensor cost 30HP. An SU and electonic ignition control (far a small engine) would be hard to beat when set up right. Webers come close to IR, and a blow thru IR vs Weber would be within tenths of a percentage, I'd wager. VE, and HP well there is alot for who's doing the tuning. Just really about dry walls vs wet, and reelated issues. Now drivibility, tunability, reliability, emissions are all other matters. But, to claim EFI is that "secret to HP + VE" or especially good for turbos, is kinda stretching a point, IMHO. I notice noone has mentioned cross over so far. And that opens the doors for all kinds of things. Grumpy > Espen Hilde wrote: > > What I tryed to say was that the AFM cant give info for the retard of > > ignition advance that the backpressure is indicating. > > AFM is not fast enough for a high rpm engine with big turbo, the engine can > > dubble the hp in 250rpm change. > > In a oem application ...no problem. > > Your points serve to illustrate a less-than-well-known (?) fact that > sophisticated engine management contributes more efficiency and HP to a turbo > motor, than to a NA motor. > - Clay (not that it isn't worthwhile on an NA motor...) > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #89 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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