DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, March 8 2000 Volume 05 : Number 094 In this issue: RE: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) Re: Thanks to all who responded... Re: Thanks to all who responded... Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) trans recommends (was Re: Electronic Transmission Control) Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) 700R4 merits (was Re: Electronic Transmission Control) Re: Electronic Transmission Control Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) Re: Electronic Transmission Control Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) Re: O2 sensor Voltage Re: Electronic Transmission Control Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) Re: Electronic Transmission Control Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) Re: Electronic Transmission Control Re: EFI GM Diesel (was AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor)) Re: Electronic Transmission Control Re: Electronic Transmission Control See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 8 Mar 2000 19:08:39 -0800 From: "Eric Aos" Subject: RE: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) > >> EGT is significant; the energy in the recirculated exhaust gases > >> will increase the possibility of knock as the total energy of the > >> mixture is higher than with all fresh mixture. > > >EGR, is low in O2 content, so how is it's total energy higher?. > > It's hotter. > > The total energy of the mixture in the cylinder is higher. > > The exhaust gases are at 400C or more. The fresh air is at maybe > 100C with a turbo and inter-cooler. Therefore the total energy is > greater at the end of compression, prior to the start of combustion. > > You start with a hotter mixture, so you need to compensate for that > to avoid knock. > Let me get back on my chair... somebody better tell John Force he's been goin about it all wrong. If he just gets someone to pump some hot inert gas into his motor he'd go a bunch (technical term) faster. The whole point of EGR is to reduce the efficience of a motor. Heat is relative, warm burnt exhaust is cooler than fresh fire. Eric Aos - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 21:57:28 -0500 From: Seth Subject: Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) Yes, the heat energy is higher, but hot inert gases don't burn or explode. As you start increasing the quantity of EGR, you will increase the charge temp, but reduce the concentration of oxygen. So at 50% EGR for example, you could, using your numbers, arrive with 250C intake charge, assuming no losses of heat. And 10.5% O2. Which would certainly be hot. But probably wouldn't even light, let alone knock. And I bet pumped, metered EGR is less that 400C. Even EGR due to the exhaust valve being open during the intake "event" has time to cool nad expand further while it is waffling about in the manifold and exhaust port. - -Seth Bernd Felsche wrote: > > nacelp writes: > > >> EGT is significant; the energy in the recirculated exhaust gases > >> will increase the possibility of knock as the total energy of the > >> mixture is higher than with all fresh mixture. > > >EGR, is low in O2 content, so how is it's total energy higher?. > > It's hotter. > > The total energy of the mixture in the cylinder is higher. > > The exhaust gases are at 400C or more. The fresh air is at maybe > 100C with a turbo and inter-cooler. Therefore the total energy is > greater at the end of compression, prior to the start of combustion. > > You start with a hotter mixture, so you need to compensate for that > to avoid knock. > > -- > Real Name: Bernd Felsche > Email: nospam.bernie@xxx.au > http://www.perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie - Private HP > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 22:00:57 -0500 From: Matt Cramer Subject: Re: Thanks to all who responded... I see what you mean. Thanks for the computer numbers - what kinds of engines used these ECM's? Matt Cramer At 09:40 PM 3/8/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Use common, easy to find parts so that on a Sunday afternoon, you can walk >into an xyz auto parts store, and get what you need to fix your ride. > SEFI, only counts for idle, and then really only if using huge injectors. >You'd do better using a reliable as a rock comletely hac'd ecm. Try >investigating the gm 730, if you want MAP, and the 165 for MAF. If you have >to have SEFI (MAF) then the 148. 730+165 covered at www.tunercat.com, and >the 148 at the gn ttype site. > With the TPI, the intake has the increased volume, cause the fuel ain't >displacing air. Might work more on a good exhuast, then worrying about a >sheetmetal intake. >Grumpy > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:08:55 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: Thanks to all who responded... >From 86-92 were used in LOTS of different enignes, from 4s to v-8s, an archives search would be most revealing, for a complete listing of engine chassis combos. Grumpy > I see what you mean. Thanks for the computer numbers - what kinds of > engines used these ECM's? > > Matt Cramer > > At 09:40 PM 3/8/2000 -0500, you wrote: > >Use common, easy to find parts so that on a Sunday afternoon, you can walk > >into an xyz auto parts store, and get what you need to fix your ride. > > SEFI, only counts for idle, and then really only if using huge injectors. > >You'd do better using a reliable as a rock comletely hac'd ecm. Try > >investigating the gm 730, if you want MAP, and the 165 for MAF. If you have > >to have SEFI (MAF) then the 148. 730+165 covered at www.tunercat.com, and > >the 148 at the gn ttype site. > > With the TPI, the intake has the increased volume, cause the fuel ain't > >displacing air. Might work more on a good exhuast, then worrying about a > >sheetmetal intake. > >Grumpy > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 20:32:28 -0700 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) >EGR, is low in O2 content, so how is it's total energy higher?. >Grumpy > >> EGT is significant; the energy in the recirculated exhaust gases >> will increase the possibility of knock as the total energy of the >> mixture is higher than with all fresh mixture. Ray Hall is using a standard GM 3 bar MAP sensor for EBP measurement--on the end of about 24 or 30" of tubing. I think they take the port for it from the crossover passage for manifold heat (he does mostly BBC marine stuff). Big Diesels are now having to go to EGR for NOx control, and most of them will be using EGR COOLERS--use coolant to cool down the recirced exhaust gasses! No NEW energy in EGR, just heat. Course--diesels are a different ball-game in many ways. BTW--Bruce--have the little guys ever come across a DT-573?? Apparently it's a V-8 version of their little 430 toy!! Greg > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 19:35:28 -0800 From: clayb Subject: trans recommends (was Re: Electronic Transmission Control) The 700R4, if you're not interested in anything but the TCC. Excellent units, can hold lots of power, and give a hot rod (especially with EFI) mileage scratching the low 20's. You must do some upgrades and tuning to the trans for 400 HP use. Swayze wrote: > this is not an answer, but another question. > which of the later OD GM trans should I look for,needing only TCC and > 300HP+ survivability in a street driven car; 700R4,200??,4L60?,4L80? (BOP) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 22:43:24 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) > Ray Hall is using a standard GM 3 bar MAP sensor for EBP measurement--on > the end of about 24 or 30" of tubing. I think they take the port for it > from the crossover passage for manifold heat (he does mostly BBC marine > stuff). Using 1/8" copper line cools it off enough so the sensor lives. > Big Diesels are now having to go to EGR for NOx control, and most of them > will be using EGR COOLERS--use coolant to cool down the recirced exhaust > gasses! No NEW energy in EGR, just heat. Course--diesels are a different > ball-game in many ways. NOx on a diesel, compression ignition, ya right that ought to work great for heavy loads, and getting mileage. > BTW--Bruce--have the little guys ever come across a DT-573?? Apparently > it's a V-8 version of their little 430 toy!! Ughhh???. Man that sounds like fun. Just gotta work out a 8253 to fine tune the injector timing, and get away from that mechanical pump, and go EFI. grumpy > > Greg > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 19:45:07 -0800 From: clayb Subject: 700R4 merits (was Re: Electronic Transmission Control) nacelp wrote: > Any of those you mention assuming the 200??, means 200R4, can be built to > withstand 350HP easily. > The later the better, and for the 200R4 a buick turbo application would be > best core. > The 700R4/4L60 are the same basic design, the 4L the later. Trouble in my > book is that dumb first gear of 3.06:1. You're lookin' at it the wrong way, Grump. You're supposed to have so much darn horsepower, that first gear is correct, but the overdrive takes you from 70 mph up to 160 mph. Only downside is you've gotta drop into third if traffic on the freeway drops below 60 mph. Good horsepower makes three gears between 0 and 60 mph more than sufficient. - - Clay - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 19:55:56 -0800 From: clayb Subject: Re: Electronic Transmission Control nacelp wrote: > Look at what is going on at the 60' mark if you drag race your 700R4. > Unless you spin it high, your about ready to shift right before the 60' > mark. Ever wonder why some folks have such lousy 60' times when they run > them?. While you combo may avoid these issues, I'd rather have a stronger, > more reliable, 200R4 then any 700 series. BTW, I used both. > BTW, spinning any tire just slows ya down, so why even mention that?. Sure, for a drag-only car! The application is obviously the deciding factor. If you're just doing quarter miles, the close ratio trans is the answer.Close ratio Muncie four speeds were popular in the 60's, but weren't so hot on the street. Wide ratio is the best for the street, you just run a taller rear gear. Besides, shouldn't you get something out of all that EFI hardware? like a rock solid cruise at 1900 RPM, 65 MPH, with the torque converter locked. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:01:35 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) Got an extra chair (and phone), then we call start calling lots of other guys missing out on this. grumpy > > Let me get back on my chair... somebody better tell John Force he's been > goin about it all wrong. If he just gets someone to pump some hot inert > gas into his motor he'd go a bunch (technical term) faster. > > The whole point of EGR is to reduce the efficience of a motor. Heat is > relative, warm burnt exhaust is cooler than fresh fire. > > Eric Aos > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 20:03:46 -0800 From: Doug Dayson Subject: Re: Electronic Transmission Control Hi All... The stock HD (Vette/Trans Am/Z-28/Formula etc) 700R4/4L60/4L60E is rated at 375 ft/lbs...lesser standard duty 700's (S-10 etc) at 325 ft/lbs... Note that the mid 1988 and later 700R4...4L60...and 4L60E's are essentially identical with the exception of the E's electronic controls... The aftermarket can add "beef" to the 700 family to approximately 450 ft/lbs (TCI/B+M)...475ft/lbs (Premier Performance/Toy Shop)...and 500ft/lbs is claimed by Art Carr... Not sure about the stock 2004R's torque rating except that "stock" it's somewhat less than the "stock" 700 family...remembering that "stock" T-Types and GN's aren't that quick...now a aftermarket 2004R can be built to be similar in torque capability to a aftermarket 700...and the fast GN's etc chew them up regularly... I've run a aftermarket (Toy Shop in LA, CA) 700R4 in my 71 Vette with a "warm" 400hp...455ft/lbs...406ci for seven years and counting...it's ran a best of 12.87/112 mph on street tires...many passes and no trans problems...however a friend's 89 Vette equipped with a 535ft/lb Lingenfelter Super Ram'd stroker can't keep a 700R4 in one piece for long with Drag Radials...he's thinking 4L80E (if it'll fit?)... The wide ratio 700 can be a advantage in a street car (good off the line and easy cruise)...and a disadvantage in a race car (rpm recovery too low)...but keep in mind that the 2004R is actually a wide ratio box as well (compared to the standard TH-350 and TH-400's) though it's ratio spread isn't as wide as the 700's...I'd venture that the same car (with optimized rear gear) should be a tenth or two quicker with the 2004R... Ratio comparison... 700R4/4L60/4L60E ratio's...3.06...1.62...1.00...0.70 2004R ratio's...2.75...1.57...1.00...0.67 4L80E ratio's...2.48...1.48...1.00...0.75 TH-400 ratio's...2.48...1.48...1.00 TH-350 ratio's...2.52...1.52...1.00 The 4L80E is perhaps the best bet from a racer's or towing standpoint as it's got the closest ratio spread and it's torque capacity is the highest...but it's physically longer and slightly larger in diameter than it's cousin the TH-400...and it weighs 100 lbs more than the others excepting the TH-400...and it's parasitic drain is about 50HP more than the others... Also of note concerning the 4L80E's...I've heard that their sprags are weak compared to a TH-400's...fortunately the TH-400 sprags will retrofit... As far as living behind a 300HP 350ci...either member of the 700 family or the 2004R would be the best bet... Regards... Doug MysticZ wrote: > > Swayze wrote: > > > > this is not an answer, but another question. > > which of the later OD GM trans should I look for,needing only TCC and > > 300HP+ survivability in a street driven car; 700R4,200??,4L60?,4L80? (BOP) > > my trans knowledge is from the twospeed TC powerglide days. > > My 4L60E isn't complaining about 350 horsepower or 400 foot pounds. It's > not the horsepower that trashes a tranny, it's the torque. But with 300 > HP, you shouldn't have a problem with a 700R4 or 4L60E. The -80E weighs > a ton and the rest have no overdrive, so I'd stick with the 700R4/4L60E. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 22:57:04 -0500 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) You've looked into the 95+ 6.5 hardware? Fly by wire efi, boost control via PWM output, variable pump timing and duration... You supply the machinist. Shannen nacelp wrote: > > > BTW--Bruce--have the little guys ever come across a DT-573?? Apparently > > it's a V-8 version of their little 430 toy!! > > Ughhh???. Man that sounds like fun. > Just gotta work out a 8253 to fine tune the injector timing, and get away > from that mechanical pump, and go EFI. > grumpy > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 20:05:36 -0800 From: clayb Subject: Re: O2 sensor Voltage "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong (can't recall rich/lean direction) but if the > output voltage goes low(er) to indicate richer, then all you need is > a voltage divider or even (if the o/p impedance of the sensor is high) > a series resistor. You can get burned with the voltage divider approach. Better to use an op-amp buffer. Cheap, accurate, and true offset or gains adjustments without non-linear voltage divider effects. - - Clay - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:11:17 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: Electronic Transmission Control > nacelp wrote: > > Look at what is going on at the 60' mark if you drag race your 700R4. > > Unless you spin it high, your about ready to shift right before the 60' > > mark. Ever wonder why some folks have such lousy 60' times when they run > > them?. While you combo may avoid these issues, I'd rather have a stronger, > > more reliable, 200R4 then any 700 series. BTW, I used both. > > BTW, spinning any tire just slows ya down, so why even mention that?. > Sure, for a drag-only car! Only place for spinning tires I can think of is for a tractor pull.. > The application is obviously the deciding factor. If you're just doing quarter > miles, the close ratio trans is the answer.Close ratio Muncie four speeds were > popular in the 60's, but weren't so hot on the street. We weren't talking muncies. Either way it's just really the differencein in first, not all 4 gears. As I recall the minuncies had about a 2.5:1 first, and 1:1 fourth, so were much closer in overall gear multiplication. > Wide ratio is the best for the street, you just run a taller rear gear. Besides, > shouldn't you get something out of all that EFI hardware? like a rock solid > cruise at 1900 RPM, 65 MPH, with the torque converter locked. Tell, me you can really see the difference from the .67 to .7 overdrive difference. Which is about the difference from a 200R to 700R > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:17:21 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) The little time I had under a late diesel hood struck me as 8 cylinder specific. The 436 is a straight six. Is the later stuff all PCM contolled for injector timing?. Grumpy > You've looked into the 95+ 6.5 hardware? Fly by wire efi, boost > control via PWM output, variable pump timing and duration... You > supply the machinist. > Shannen > > nacelp wrote: > > > > > > BTW--Bruce--have the little guys ever come across a DT-573?? Apparently > > > it's a V-8 version of their little 430 toy!! > > > > Ughhh???. Man that sounds like fun. > > Just gotta work out a 8253 to fine tune the injector timing, and get away > > from that mechanical pump, and go EFI. > > grumpy > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > > quotes) > > > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > > quotes) > > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:31:25 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: Electronic Transmission Control > The stock HD (Vette/Trans Am/Z-28/Formula etc) 700R4/4L60/4L60E is rated at > 375 ft/lbs...lesser standard duty 700's (S-10 etc) at 325 ft/lbs... CA, HP. My 325 HP SBC ate several 84 MY versions. > Note that the mid 1988 and later 700R4...4L60...and 4L60E's are essentially > identical with the exception of the E's electronic controls... When I changed to a 89 core, they lasted much longer. > The aftermarket can add "beef" to the 700 family to approximately 450 ft/lbs > (TCI/B+M)...475ft/lbs (Premier Performance/Toy Shop)...and 500ft/lbs is > claimed by Art Carr... Again, CA HP. > Not sure about the stock 2004R's torque rating except that "stock" it's > somewhat less than the "stock" 700 family...remembering that "stock" T-Types > and GN's aren't that quick... Ya, right, but with a little tuning run 12s, and the trannies last in stock form. How many easily tunable 12 sec applications were the 700s used in?...... now a aftermarket 2004R can be built to be > similar in torque capability to a aftermarket 700...and the fast GN's etc chew > them up regularly... Try, some more research. A fast GN is what low 11s high 10s, how much work would a 700R take to live in those conditions?...... > I've run a aftermarket (Toy Shop in LA, CA) 700R4 in my 71 Vette with a "warm" > 400hp...455ft/lbs...406ci for seven years and counting...it's ran a best of > 12.87/112 mph on street tires...many passes and no trans problems...however a > friend's 89 Vette equipped with a 535ft/lb Lingenfelter Super Ram'd stroker > can't keep a 700R4 in one piece for long with Drag Radials...he's thinking > 4L80E (if it'll fit?)... There are lots of 500HP Gns doing very well with 200R4s with hardened shafts, and a updated converter. > > The wide ratio 700 can be a advantage in a street car (good off the line and > easy cruise)...and a disadvantage in a race car (rpm recovery too low)...but > keep in mind that the 2004R is actually a wide ratio box as well (compared to > the standard TH-350 and TH-400's) though it's ratio spread isn't as wide as > the 700's...I'd venture that the same car (with optimized rear gear) should be > a tenth or two quicker with the 2004R... Xactly Grumpy > > Ratio comparison... > > 700R4/4L60/4L60E ratio's...3.06...1.62...1.00...0.70 > 2004R ratio's...2.75...1.57...1.00...0.67 > > 4L80E ratio's...2.48...1.48...1.00...0.75 > > TH-400 ratio's...2.48...1.48...1.00 > > TH-350 ratio's...2.52...1.52...1.00 > > The 4L80E is perhaps the best bet from a racer's or towing standpoint as it's > got the closest ratio spread and it's torque capacity is the highest...but > it's physically longer and slightly larger in diameter than it's cousin the > TH-400...and it weighs 100 lbs more than the others excepting the TH-400...and > it's parasitic drain is about 50HP more than the others... > > Also of note concerning the 4L80E's...I've heard that their sprags are weak > compared to a TH-400's...fortunately the TH-400 sprags will retrofit... > > As far as living behind a 300HP 350ci...either member of the 700 family or the > 2004R would be the best bet... > > Regards... > > Doug > > > > MysticZ wrote: > > > > Swayze wrote: > > > > > > this is not an answer, but another question. > > > which of the later OD GM trans should I look for,needing only TCC and > > > 300HP+ survivability in a street driven car; 700R4,200??,4L60?,4L80? (BOP) > > > my trans knowledge is from the twospeed TC powerglide days. > > > > My 4L60E isn't complaining about 350 horsepower or 400 foot pounds. It's > > not the horsepower that trashes a tranny, it's the torque. But with 300 > > HP, you shouldn't have a problem with a 700R4 or 4L60E. The -80E weighs > > a ton and the rest have no overdrive, so I'd stick with the 700R4/4L60E. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:47:52 -0700 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor) >The little time I had under a late diesel hood struck me as 8 cylinder >specific. >The 436 is a straight six. Is the later stuff all PCM contolled for >injector timing?. >Grumpy Yep. Have you tried to find out if the late 466/530 lifters will fit the 430--they now use hydraulic rollers---- But if all the electronic carp is for V-8's, there's your excuse to go to a 573--- 8-O Greg > > >> You've looked into the 95+ 6.5 hardware? Fly by wire efi, boost >> control via PWM output, variable pump timing and duration... You >> supply the machinist. >> Shannen >> >> nacelp wrote: >> >> > >> > > BTW--Bruce--have the little guys ever come across a DT-573?? >Apparently >> > > it's a V-8 version of their little 430 toy!! >> > >> > Ughhh???. Man that sounds like fun. >> > Just gotta work out a 8253 to fine tune the injector timing, and get >away >> > from that mechanical pump, and go EFI. >> > grumpy >> > > >> > > Greg >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > - >> > > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >> > quotes) >> > > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo@xxx.org >> > > >> > > >> > >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > -- >> > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >> > quotes) >> > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo@xxx.org >> > > >> > >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- >> > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >> > in the body of a message (not the subject) to >majordomo@xxx.org >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >-- >> To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >> in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org >> > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 20:10:14 -0600 From: MysticZ Subject: Re: Electronic Transmission Control nacelp wrote: > > >From your responses, I'll just bow out here, to avoid a flame war. > Just look at the history of the trannies, and the answers are there. Now look at the current engines. 340 horsepower from the factory needs a wide spread of gears to make the car practical. If you make first gear high and gear it to get the 0-60s you want, you wind up redlining in 4th at 120 mph with tons of throttle left. Put in a low first gear, gear it moderately, and have an overdrive 4th and you have a car that will exceed the traction limits of any street tire on the planet and still cruise at 2000 rpm while getting 25 mpg. If you're building a strip only car, that's a different story entirely. You only have 1/4 mile to deal with and to get the absolute best performance in that 1/4 mile you have to ignore the road past that since you'll be at idle anyway. - -- Steve 97 Chevy Camaro Z28, Mystic teal, A4, not stock 90 Kawasaki EX500A4, black, M6, not even CLOSE to stock! lt1_z28@xxx.net/~lt1_z28 Aluminum, steel, carbon fiber, titanium, and two cast iron balls. McMillan Motorsports- http://www.mmsbikes.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 23:36:08 -0500 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: EFI GM Diesel (was AFM measurement/backpressure (was Turbo speed sensor)) All PCM controlled, yes. Done in the injection pump, so some serious changes would be in order to run 6 cyl. Can't find the books I had, but something about a stepper motor controlled disc that rotated to change fuel volume and timing. Optical crank sensor in the pump was a common failure in the early days. Wastegate operated off vacuum pump, pwm solenoid. Shannen nacelp wrote: > > The little time I had under a late diesel hood struck me as 8 cylinder > specific. > The 436 is a straight six. Is the later stuff all PCM contolled for > injector timing?. > Grumpy > > > You've looked into the 95+ 6.5 hardware? Fly by wire efi, boost > > control via PWM output, variable pump timing and duration... You > > supply the machinist. > > Shannen > > > > nacelp wrote: > > > > > > > > > BTW--Bruce--have the little guys ever come across a DT-573?? > Apparently > > > > it's a V-8 version of their little 430 toy!! > > > > > > Ughhh???. Man that sounds like fun. > > > Just gotta work out a 8253 to fine tune the injector timing, and get > away > > > from that mechanical pump, and go EFI. > > > grumpy > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > - > > > > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > > > quotes) > > > > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@xxx.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- > > > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > > > quotes) > > > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@xxx.org > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to > majordomo@xxx.org > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 20:13:21 -0600 From: MysticZ Subject: Re: Electronic Transmission Control nacelp wrote: > > > The low 1st of the 700R4 and 4L60E are one of the strong points! > > Ha, maybe in your opinion, but never in mine. > They designed that feature for the slug 305s that had trouble getting out of > their own way. > It also, allows em to run a slopey, or forgiving calibration, (you're pick) > since the engine sees so little load with all that gear multiplication to > get the mass moving. I can spin any tire short of ET Streets at wide open throttle on the strip with my lowly 400 foot pounds of torque and 2.73 gears. My thoughts are to get the stickiest tires on the planet, gear it as low as possible without spinning, stage, floor it, hold on tight! I've been up to 140 before and still had room to accelerate and 75 mph is 1900 rpm in 4th. 1st is a *little* low since I'd like to be at about 2100 rpm at 75 mph for better cruise mileage, but I'm not going to screw with it to get 200 rpm. I'll just drive faster ;) - -- Steve 97 Chevy Camaro Z28, Mystic teal, A4, not stock 90 Kawasaki EX500A4, black, M6, not even CLOSE to stock! lt1_z28@xxx.net/~lt1_z28 Aluminum, steel, carbon fiber, titanium, and two cast iron balls. McMillan Motorsports- http://www.mmsbikes.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 23:43:16 -0800 From: Doug Dayson Subject: Re: Electronic Transmission Control Hey Grumpy... nacelp wrote: > > > The stock HD (Vette/Trans Am/Z-28/Formula etc) 700R4/4L60/4L60E is rated > at > > 375 ft/lbs...lesser standard duty 700's (S-10 etc) at 325 ft/lbs... > > CA, HP. My 325 HP SBC ate several 84 MY versions. The initial model year(s) were designed for the blazingly powerful 200hp Cross-Fire 350's...700's were continually updated until mid 88...the latest version can be identified by a lack of pressure ports on the case...don't mistake the V8 700's (Chevy Bellhousing Only) with the 6-cyl version (Universal Bellhousing)... > > > Note that the mid 1988 and later 700R4...4L60...and 4L60E's are > essentially > > identical with the exception of the E's electronic controls... > > When I changed to a 89 core, they lasted much longer. Yep... > > > The aftermarket can add "beef" to the 700 family to approximately 450 > ft/lbs > > (TCI/B+M)...475ft/lbs (Premier Performance/Toy Shop)...and 500ft/lbs is > > claimed by Art Carr... > > Again, CA HP. What the heck is CA, HP? The factory figure's above are GM's... If you're implying BS then say "BS"...as far as the aftermarket claims I'll agree with you regarding the TCI and B+M stuff (I've seen lots of broken ones)...but the others produce good stuff...stuff that lasts behind cars doing mid to high10's etc... > > Not sure about the stock 2004R's torque rating except that "stock" it's > > somewhat less than the "stock" 700 family...remembering that "stock" > T-Types > > and GN's aren't that quick... > > Ya, right, but with a little tuning run 12s, and the trannies last in stock > form. How many easily tunable 12 sec applications were the 700s used > in?...... Many...any HP F-Car or Vette can be "easily" tuned (heads...headers...cam...calibration) to run mid to high 12's...some folks have even gotten those heavy Impala SS's into the 12's...S-10 V8 conversions too... And how about the GMC Cyclone...that turbo Blazer thingie..."probably" a AWD 700R4 (it has a different case to mount to the AWD transfer case) in it eh... Though let's not debate the virtues of Forced Induction vs Natural Aspiration now...remember that "stock" GN's run low 14's to high 13's...and we all know how blazingly fast the tweeked ones are! > > now a aftermarket 2004R can be built to be > > similar in torque capability to a aftermarket 700...and the fast GN's etc > chew > > them up regularly... > > Try, some more research. A fast GN is what low 11s high 10s, how much work > would a 700R take to live in those conditions?...... The same as those modified 200's get... A small displacement turbo motor that doesn't make it's power until the turbo's spin up (assuming streetable converters) doesn't hit the trans as hard at launch either...put either "stock" trans behind a "healthy" 400ci or better with traction and watch the parts fly... > There are lots of 500HP Gns doing very well with 200R4s with hardened > shafts, and a updated converter. > > And aftermarket steels and clutches and band etc...and modified servos and pumps with raised line pressure etc...and blueprinted pump...HD sprags and over-running clutch etc...either can be built to handle about 500 ft/lbs or maybe a bit more with traction...anymore than that and either is living on borrowed time if you hook... If you're gonna drag race with 500ft/lbs plus of torque regularly on slicks get preferably a TH-400 or 4L80E...or at least a beefed TH-350...or if you're light enough a beefed 'Glide... And back to the original thread of living behind a 300HP 350ci in a "street driven car"...either member of the 700 family or the 2004R would work fine... Important Note:...the 700R4 runs hot (not sure about the 2004R...it probably does too)...if any severe duty (racing...towing etc) is forseen use a aftermarket external cooler in series after the radiator cooler... If coming from a TH-400 the install would be easier with a 700R4 as they have a tail-housing with the rear mount in the almost same place (3/4" farther back)...the cooler lines will fit...driveshaft will need to be shortened... If coming from a TH-350 then either...though the driveshaft "should" (measure in the car) work with the 2004R...but the mount will be in a different place and the cooler lines will need modifying... With the 700R4 the driveshaft will need to be shortened...and the mount will be in different place...but the cooler lines will fit... Most cars will allow you to slide the trans crossmember around enough to mount either trans... For both you'll have to get or fabricate a TV Cable mount at the carb or TB and modify your shifter gate if you want access to all four forward gears...and possibly re-route your exhaust if it gets too close to the larger pans these OD Trannies have... If a 63 thru 81 Vette...you'll also have to modify the parking brake linkage... Regards... Doug - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #94 **************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".