DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, March 14 2000 Volume 05 : Number 103 In this issue: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: Optimax/PULP Re: CNG Vehicle in Perth, bit of an update Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: Sources for connectors? Re: CNG Vehicle in Perth, bit of an update Re: CNG Vehicle in Perth, bit of an update Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: Seat Arosa '98 .bin wanted Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: Optimax/PULP - twin tyres Re: CNG Vehicle in Perth, bit of an update Re: water into efi system before injectors. See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:20:09 -0500 From: "Swayze" Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. yea well, so much for hooking up a mapsensor to the windshield wiper motor....... seriously, are there any papers which discuss the pertinent math involved in water injection for non-turbo apps? byE Mike Swayze mswayze@xxx.com kswayze@xxx.net - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 5:21 AM Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. > At 06:11 PM 13/3/2000 +0100, you wrote: > >Hi! > >Check this out! > >Something to set the braincells to work. > >Us pat nr:5823149 oct.20.98 > >Turbo dyne systems. > >Espen > > > >Attachment Converted: "C:\MAIL\INCOMING\0456_2lo.jpeg" > > Yeah tah, saw it on the autospeed site just this morning, you can also > browse it on the ibm patent site... I've downloaded all the .GIF files :) > > This worries me a bit, because it makes simple combinatorial designs > of an engineering nature patentable - hence it restricts use, have a look > at some of the claims! Its bizarre that minor configuration issues are > considered patentable. There are a huge number of rehashes of basic > engineering combinatorial designs patentable when its just plain a > design selection to achieve a particular outcome. The trouble also is > that these days unless someone actually challenges it - then it makes > it appear valid. There are heaps of ideas a plenty which are patented > and have never been built. Ideas are a dime a dozen - especially water > injection in all sorts of variations - its the proven implementations > that are the hardest, hence trade secrets and copyrights are a sometimes > more valuable protection strategy - that and registered designs too. > > There's an old/new song:- "Its all been done...." > > Rgds > > Mike > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 06:03:12 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. At 04:20 PM 13/3/2000 -0500, you wrote: >yea well, so much for hooking up a mapsensor to the windshield wiper >motor....... Those were the days ;-) >seriously, are there any papers which discuss the pertinent math involved in >water injection for non-turbo apps? I suppose you could work it out from the specific heat of water, mass added, expected temperature drop of mixture in chamber etc. etc. I suppose the leaner you go the more water - with appropriate safety's... My school physics text has some good stuff - I keep it handy as my memory is going, ie. The second thing to go when you get old is memory and the first thing to go has something to do with that rubber thing in my wallet... Rgds Mike PS: Anyone noticed the emails are out of sync - I get answers up to 30 mins before the initial request - or do electrons take longer to spin around down-under ? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:55:13 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. > >seriously, are there any papers which discuss the pertinent math involved in > >water injection for non-turbo apps? Interesting question, but I start at the low side of Ricardo's estimates, and work from there. First trying more, then less. > I suppose you could work it out from the specific heat of water, mass added, > expected temperature drop of mixture in chamber etc. etc. > I suppose the leaner you go the more water - with appropriate safety's... If all your worried about is EGT. Gonna take x amount of fuel to make x HP, unless special circumstance. > My school physics text has some good stuff - I keep it handy as my > memory is going, > ie. The second thing to go when you get old is memory and the first thing > to go has something to do with that rubber thing in my wallet... No commment from the older than tree set, here at CSH, HQ Grumpy > > Rgds > > Mike > > PS: Anyone noticed the emails are out of sync - I get answers up to > 30 mins before the initial request - or do electrons take longer to > spin around down-under ? They always do. they even have to change directions 4x to get to CSH, HQ, regional offices less - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 16:57:59 -0500 From: "Swayze" Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. I wonder (just lazy) what the practical limiting dilution point (10% water?) of the incoming mixture would be? Swayze mswayze@xxx.com kswayze@xxx.net - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 6:03 AM Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. > At 04:20 PM 13/3/2000 -0500, you wrote: > >yea well, so much for hooking up a mapsensor to the windshield wiper > >motor....... > > Those were the days ;-) > > >seriously, are there any papers which discuss the pertinent math involved in > >water injection for non-turbo apps? > > I suppose you could work it out from the specific heat of water, mass added, > expected temperature drop of mixture in chamber etc. etc. > > I suppose the leaner you go the more water - with appropriate safety's... > > My school physics text has some good stuff - I keep it handy as my > memory is going, > > ie. The second thing to go when you get old is memory and the first thing > to go has something to do with that rubber thing in my wallet... > > Rgds > > Mike > > PS: Anyone noticed the emails are out of sync - I get answers up to > 30 mins before the initial request - or do electrons take longer to > spin around down-under ? > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 00:22:54 +0100 From: "Espen Hilde" Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Hi! > Yeah tah, saw it on the autospeed site just this morning, Yes ! there is where I got the info! They have some interesting stuff coming up :Wide range air fuel meter.... hurry up EGOR! you can also > browse it on the ibm patent site... I've downloaded all the .GIF files :) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:25:34 +0800 From: dzorde@xxx.com Subject: Re: Optimax/PULP I think the other fuel companies will be there at the same time, they were with the LRP when it was only really BP that made a big deal of it. Haven't seen any trials yet though. But what is happening to Toluene, I'd hate for the price of that to go up just because some dumb arse fuel station was caught with high levels in their tanks ? Here I am paying money to increase the Toluene content in my petrol, and people are screaming about getting ripped off because they happen to use a petrol station where the owner mixes in Toluene for more profit. I'd be happy to fill up at these places if only I knew which ones they were. Yeah, Orbital is less than 2km away. The closest we get to engines is for the latest project where we'll be interfacing a GPS unit to the buses for full system data logging. Would be fun though if we bought them, free dyno time after hours and on the weekends, full design and prototype casting facility for making any engine part you need. As for tyres try Tyrepower in Osborne Park, I talked to someone around a year ago selling twin tyres and he may have been from there. I saw your post on the CNG injection. have you tried talking to the engineers at Transcom in Osborne Park, this is what they specialise in? Dan dzorde@xxx.com Subject: Re: CNG Vehicle in Perth, bit of an update Mike wrote: >Now this is interesting :) > >The ford they run is a six cylinder, (4.2L?) and runs the *same* fuel rail >as the original petrol variant. The additions are:- > >a. Injectors are high flow methanol units supplied by Bosch, I > will try to get a part number. Note: They operate at 200KPa > fuel rail pressure and the fuel rail is only dense gas (methane > mostly) at that pressure. So thats about 28 psi. Pretty tame. > >b. Standard ECU was reprogrammed to take the larger injectors other > controls are unchanged - AFAIK - but will check. Easy so far. The volumetric stoich for methane is 1:10, which means it will displace about 1/11th of the original (gasoline) air charge. This means I'd expect a reduction in power at the crank, unless this is compensated for via timing, compression ratio, turbo etc to exploit the 130 octane. >c. There's no fuel pump, high or low pressure, though might still be > in the vehicle... Not sure if there's a safety run/stop solenoid > valve. Bet there is! > >d. Two stage pressure regulator, drops from tank 20MegaPascals to > the 200KPa used by the injectors. 20 Meg = 3000 psi. Must be a special unit. > >e. Regulator is plumbed with hot water from cooling system as the > methane has a small amount of water (hope there's no hydrates) > when it comes from the refinery. Nothing to worry about its just > that its enough to ice up the regulator on higher flows...And I > suppose a single stage 20MPa to 200KPa might not be so stable ? Heat would also be to supply specific heat requirements due to changing the pressure by about 20 million pascals. >:) >f. Injectors only work for 60,000 Kms before failing. Reason suggested > by Ford is that they are designed for fluid with that cushioning > effect - running dense gas makes them wear and fatigue more. > >g. Vehicle doesn't have dual fuel capability, injection system being > tuned/setup/fixed only for CNG. Nope. All Ford parts fail at 60,000 Kms. :( (JUST KIDDING but it does explain a few things...) >h. Not sure of size of tank, will check out later this week if at all > possible, I udnerstand wall thickness is 1/2" though and *HEeaVY*. > >There is some suggestion that a suitable solvent could be found for methane >in a storage format similar to acetylene tanks (Acetone I think, or is this >just acetone to wet the catalyst the acetylene sits on in the tank) ? > Now you're getting somewhere. So does anyone know of a good solvent/solute for methane? Acetylene tanks are filled with some sort of porous substance soaked in acetone. The gas is dissolved into the acetone at relatively low pressures, like 150 psi etc. Acetylene is sort of weird - supposedly it will self decompose at pressures above 15 psi. This being said - nobody has been able to explain (to me) how the acetylene in the high pressure side of the regulator is immune from this effect. - -Bill ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 100 10:27:44 +0800 (WST) From: Bernd Felsche Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Mike writes: >At 06:11 PM 13/3/2000 +0100, you wrote: >>Hi! >>Check this out! >>Something to set the braincells to work. >>Us pat nr:5823149 oct.20.98 >>Turbo dyne systems. >>Attachment Converted: "C:\MAIL\INCOMING\0456_2lo.jpeg" >Yeah tah, saw it on the autospeed site just this morning, you can also >browse it on the ibm patent site... I've downloaded all the .GIF files :) Do you have a URL to that site? >This worries me a bit, because it makes simple combinatorial designs >of an engineering nature patentable - hence it restricts use, have a look >at some of the claims! Its bizarre that minor configuration issues are Standard practice. Research departments seem to be measuring their "performance" by the number of Patent applications lodged. [Bosch lodged about 20,000 last year - from memory.] I was amazed when I last went through the process that the "obviousness" of the invention was never tested before the Patent was granted. It was merely compared to prior patents. How can you test obviousness after the thing has been published? It doesn't make sense to test it (in court!) after the fact. >and have never been built. Ideas are a dime a dozen - especially water >injection in all sorts of variations - its the proven implementations >that are the hardest, hence trade secrets and copyrights are a sometimes >more valuable protection strategy - that and registered designs too. Keeping secrets is not always practical - it can give you an edge over the competition if you get your product to market before anything is published. >There's an old/new song:- "Its all been done...." Yep. That's why I love to walk around technical museums, railway workshops, etc. Old ideas are great - you could probably patent a couple of million of them. :-) BTW: see http://www.aquamist.co.uk for water-injection system components. - -- Real Name: Bernd Felsche Email: nospam.bernie@xxx.au http://www.perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie - Private HP - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:14:28 -0600 From: "alexpeper" Subject: Re: Sources for connectors? Can supply 16 PIN OBD2 connector with PC scan tool for $122. or shell with pins for $12 includes ship. You can get free obd2 connector shell samples and pins from delphi -pioneer- packard-standard-electronics if ask carefully several times. Alex Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 12:15:49 -0600 From: MysticZ Subject: Re: Sources for connectors? Jan Ben wrote: > > sorry to chime in.. but what abt. bosch ecu connectors? i just want to make a > breakout box fo rdebugging.. A few people I've talked to have gone a bit nuts with it and actually tapped into the appropriate parts of the wiring harness with various high density computer connectors. Not the easiest method, but it worked. The one connector I can't find anywhere is the one to connect to the OBDII ALDL under the dash for a scan tool. The thing is impossible to find. I have one from a Hypertech HPP+, but that's the only one and $300 each is a bit much ;) - - -- Steve 97 Chevy Camaro Z28, Mystic teal, A4, not stock 90 Kawasaki EX500A4, black, M6, not even CLOSE to stock! lt1_z28@xxx.net/~lt1_z28 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 100 10:44:15 +0800 (WST) From: Bernd Felsche Subject: Re: CNG Vehicle in Perth, bit of an update Bill the arcstarter writes: >Mike wrote: >>Now this is interesting :) >>The ford they run is a six cylinder, (4.2L?) and runs the *same* fuel rail >>as the original petrol variant. The additions are:- >> >>a. Injectors are high flow methanol units supplied by Bosch, I >> will try to get a part number. Note: They operate at 200KPa >> fuel rail pressure and the fuel rail is only dense gas (methane >> mostly) at that pressure. >So thats about 28 psi. Pretty tame. You don't need the pressure to cause a fine spray to vapourise the fuel - my guess. [snip] >>f. Injectors only work for 60,000 Kms before failing. Reason suggested >> by Ford is that they are designed for fluid with that cushioning >> effect - running dense gas makes them wear and fatigue more. >> >>g. Vehicle doesn't have dual fuel capability, injection system being >> tuned/setup/fixed only for CNG. >Nope. All Ford parts fail at 60,000 Kms. :( (JUST KIDDING but it does >explain a few things...) That would seriously offset the cost benefits of CNG. Fuel injectors are not cheap. At roughly AUD$1000 replacement cost, that re-classifies injectors as a consumable in the same order of magnitude as the fuel! - -- Real Name: Bernd Felsche Email: nospam.bernie@xxx.au http://www.perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie - Private HP - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 21:41:32 -0500 From: Seth Subject: Re: CNG Vehicle in Perth, bit of an update Hmm, ran a gaseous CNG injected Dodge Neon in school. Rail pressure was 150 to 200 psi. If I can convert correctly, that's ~ 1.0-1.3 megapascals. Container was used at 3600 psi. I believe it was carbon fiber wrapped polyethylene. Might have been PTFE, I can't remember.Walls of pressure vessel were ~1.5 inches thick, mostly plastic. Engine ran at 10.0 and 14.5 to one compression ratio. (swapped pistons one year) 14.5:1 produced excessive NOX, without a drastic increase in power.Don't rmember hom much ignition advance it used, but it could take lots before pinging. Had a problem at WOT with flooding. Gaseous CNG displaced enough air to flood out. Had to engineer an electronice "ramp in" for the throttle. Acceleration enrichment ( in the stock ECU) was what did it, IIRC. pics are here: http://vri.etec.wwu.edu/viking_25.htm - -Seth Bill the arcstarter wrote: > > Mike wrote: > > >Now this is interesting :) > > > >The ford they run is a six cylinder, (4.2L?) and runs the *same* fuel rail > >as the original petrol variant. The additions are:- > > > >a. Injectors are high flow methanol units supplied by Bosch, I > > will try to get a part number. Note: They operate at 200KPa > > fuel rail pressure and the fuel rail is only dense gas (methane > > mostly) at that pressure. > > So thats about 28 psi. Pretty tame. > > > > >b. Standard ECU was reprogrammed to take the larger injectors other > > controls are unchanged - AFAIK - but will check. > > Easy so far. > > The volumetric stoich for methane is 1:10, which means it will displace > about 1/11th of the original (gasoline) air charge. This means I'd expect a > reduction in power at the crank, unless this is compensated for via timing, > compression ratio, turbo etc to exploit the 130 octane. > > >c. There's no fuel pump, high or low pressure, though might still be > > in the vehicle... Not sure if there's a safety run/stop solenoid > > valve. > > Bet there is! > > > > >d. Two stage pressure regulator, drops from tank 20MegaPascals to > > the 200KPa used by the injectors. > > 20 Meg = 3000 psi. Must be a special unit. > > > > >e. Regulator is plumbed with hot water from cooling system as the > > methane has a small amount of water (hope there's no hydrates) > > when it comes from the refinery. Nothing to worry about its just > > that its enough to ice up the regulator on higher flows...And I > > suppose a single stage 20MPa to 200KPa might not be so stable ? > > Heat would also be to supply specific heat requirements due to changing the > pressure by about 20 million pascals. >:) > > >f. Injectors only work for 60,000 Kms before failing. Reason suggested > > by Ford is that they are designed for fluid with that cushioning > > effect - running dense gas makes them wear and fatigue more. > > > >g. Vehicle doesn't have dual fuel capability, injection system being > > tuned/setup/fixed only for CNG. > > Nope. All Ford parts fail at 60,000 Kms. :( (JUST KIDDING but it does > explain a few things...) > > >h. Not sure of size of tank, will check out later this week if at all > > possible, I udnerstand wall thickness is 1/2" though and *HEeaVY*. > > > >There is some suggestion that a suitable solvent could be found for methane > >in a storage format similar to acetylene tanks (Acetone I think, or is this > >just acetone to wet the catalyst the acetylene sits on in the tank) ? > > > > Now you're getting somewhere. So does anyone know of a good solvent/solute > for methane? > > Acetylene tanks are filled with some sort of porous substance soaked in > acetone. The gas is dissolved into the acetone at relatively low pressures, > like 150 psi etc. > > Acetylene is sort of weird - supposedly it will self decompose at pressures > above 15 psi. This being said - nobody has been able to explain (to me) how > the acetylene in the high pressure side of the regulator is immune from this > effect. > > -Bill > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 20:20:35 -0700 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. >yea well, so much for hooking up a mapsensor to the windshield wiper >motor....... > >seriously, are there any papers which discuss the pertinent math involved in >water injection for non-turbo apps? >byE >Mike >Swayze No papers I know of, but have done the math/thermo. Comes out to about 75 or 80% of mass flow rate of stoich fuel mix fuel flow in water will get you saturated vapor conditions at TDC when it's time for the spark. Any more than this, and you lose power. Same old saw--gotta have the H2O atomized, but not vaporized until the intake closes, or you lose because water vapor (molecular weight = 18) displaces a lot of air (avg. molecular weight =29), thus losing you power. Ideal amount of water increases with increasing effective compression ratio. Greg - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 19:10:32 +0200 From: "John Andrianakis" Subject: Re: Seat Arosa '98 .bin wanted I am not sure but I think the chip on this ecu must be a 87c510 which is impossible to emulate with most emulators. I have seen this chip on Bosch 0261203932 ecu from VW Polo 1.4 8v. Hope I've helped. John Andrianakis. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Kostas Kofinas To: DIY-EFI LIST Sent: 13 Μαρτίου 2000 11:29 Subject: Seat Arosa '98 .bin wanted > Hello group, > I need to emulate this thing but unfortunately reading of the custom chip is > impossible (taking error message for 2 pins). > The Bosch ECM number is: 0 261 203 930 > If someone has this file in his hard drive please email it to me > > thank you > Kostas - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:35:36 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. At 10:27 AM 14/3/2000 +0800, you wrote: >>Yeah tah, saw it on the autospeed site just this morning, you can also >>browse it on the ibm patent site... I've downloaded all the .GIF files :) > >Do you have a URL to that site? I take it you mean the IBM one, though here are both:- http://patent.womplex.ibm.com/ibm.html (its a bit slow at moment, why ;-o) http://www.autospeed.com/A_0456/P_1/article.html (Need to pay for it:() >>This worries me a bit, because it makes simple combinatorial designs >>of an engineering nature patentable - hence it restricts use, have a look >>at some of the claims! Its bizarre that minor configuration issues are > >Standard practice. Research departments seem to be measuring their >"performance" by the number of Patent applications lodged. [Bosch >lodged about 20,000 last year - from memory.] Well I suppose we can get a lot of data - sicne we can search for company name on the IBM site ;) >I was amazed when I last went through the process that the >"obviousness" of the invention was never tested before the Patent >was granted. It was merely compared to prior patents. How can you >test obviousness after the thing has been published? It doesn't make >sense to test it (in court!) after the fact. Amazing isn't it - just goes to show lawyers have the upper hand, sad case of not enough technical people in patent examination and legal firms for that matter. Interesting stat: Where US companies hire lawyers, Jap companies hire engineers (real ones, not just someone with a soldering iron), and in Jap engineers almost have idolised popstar status. If someone tells me they are a lawyer (at a party), I say, "oh you poor man, don't worry you'll eventually grow out it"... >>and have never been built. Ideas are a dime a dozen - especially water >>injection in all sorts of variations - its the proven implementations >>that are the hardest, hence trade secrets and copyrights are a sometimes >>more valuable protection strategy - that and registered designs too. > >Keeping secrets is not always practical - it can give you an edge >over the competition if you get your product to market before >anything is published. In software, its fairly common and relatively easy but there is nothing that can stop anyone if they are intent on pursuing reverse engineering. >>There's an old/new song:- "Its all been done...." > >Yep. That's why I love to walk around technical museums, railway >workshops, etc. Old ideas are great - you could probably patent a >couple of million of them. :-) mmm - The pitot steam valve is a good example - repatented about 10 times in many variations and I think now leads to the cylonic chiller - imaging getting -20 deg C from 200 deg C exhaust by centripetal sonic resonance... >BTW: see http://www.aquamist.co.uk for water-injection system components. Yeah - I've got that in my bookmarks, tah - but expensive for what they do though. trouble is any decent 12v water pump at 60psi (anywhere) just ain't cheap, got any ideas for readily available 45 to 60psi 12/24v DC pumps ? Rgds Mike Massen Ancient Sufi saying: "Should your God save you from adversity, choose another God" Pictures of site installation at Mendulong near Sipitang, Sabah (Malaysia) for container based RAPS... http://www.wantree.com.au/~erazmus Vehicle modifications on GMH Turbo, twin tyres, possible 175Kw at wheels Preliminary pictures at http://www.wantree.com.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/ My editorial on twin-tyre opinion and good reference about tyres:- http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/2195/ttyreopinion.html - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:41:09 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: Optimax/PULP - twin tyres At 08:25 AM 14/3/2000 +0800, you wrote: > >I think the other fuel companies will be there at the same time, they were with >the LRP when it was only really BP that made a big deal of it. Haven't seen any >trials yet though. But what is happening to Toluene, I'd hate for the price of >that to go up just because some dumb arse fuel station was caught with high >levels in their tanks ? Here I am paying money to increase the Toluene content >in my petrol, and people are screaming about getting ripped off because they >happen to use a petrol station where the owner mixes in Toluene for more profit. >I'd be happy to fill up at these places if only I knew which ones they were. mmm - Trouble is those are the same ones that also put xylene, cyclopentanes and "unrefined" remnants of "USED" paint thinners in as well, try Amgas in Oxford st, leederville (no defamation) just to have a look at the er um colour of the volatiles or tint thereof ;-) >Yeah, Orbital is less than 2km away. The closest we get to engines is for the >latest project where we'll be interfacing a GPS unit to the buses for full >system data logging. Would be fun though if we bought them, free dyno time >after hours and on the weekends, full design and prototype casting facility for >making any engine part you need. Ah ha - is that the 3D fax machine thingo - do you know if its the plastic variant with epoxy beads or the metal/infra laser one with zinc/ally dust ? >As for tyres try Tyrepower in Osborne Park, I talked to someone around a year >ago selling twin tyres and he may have been from there. Yeah know them, Spoke to Richard about 6 months back, Graham sold his old stock to a restaurant ! But tried to sell to Tyrepower - struck out :( I'm looking for any s/h ones now >I saw your post on the CNG injection. have you tried talking to the engineers >at Transcom in Osborne Park, this is what they specialise in? Oh what a good idea - will do - theyre just up the road too, :) I think Osborne park is our little Australian "Aluminium Valley" - hehe Rgds Mike Massen Ancient Sufi saying: "Should your God save you from adversity, choose another God" Pictures of site installation at Mendulong near Sipitang, Sabah (Malaysia) for container based RAPS... http://www.wantree.com.au/~erazmus Vehicle modifications on GMH Turbo, twin tyres, possible 175Kw at wheels Preliminary pictures at http://www.wantree.com.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/ My editorial on twin-tyre opinion and good reference about tyres:- http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/2195/ttyreopinion.html - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:44:22 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: CNG Vehicle in Perth, bit of an update At 10:44 AM 14/3/2000 +0800, you wrote: >>>The ford they run is a six cylinder, (4.2L?) and runs the *same* fuel rail >>>as the original petrol variant. The additions are:- >>> >>>a. Injectors are high flow methanol units supplied by Bosch, I >>> will try to get a part number. Note: They operate at 200KPa >>> fuel rail pressure and the fuel rail is only dense gas (methane >>> mostly) at that pressure. > >>So thats about 28 psi. Pretty tame. > >You don't need the pressure to cause a fine spray to vapourise the >fuel - my guess. Well even though the injectors are methanol - they flow gaseous methane, hence no worry about vaporisation, hence exisiting fuel real pressure OK. >>Nope. All Ford parts fail at 60,000 Kms. :( (JUST KIDDING but it does >>explain a few things...) > >That would seriously offset the cost benefits of CNG. Fuel injectors >are not cheap. At roughly AUD$1000 replacement cost, that re-classifies >injectors as a consumable in the same order of magnitude as the fuel! Yeah there must be a better way, as always theres a lack of readily available actuators... :) mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 20:50:59 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. At 08:20 PM 13/3/2000 -0700, you wrote: >No papers I know of, but have done the math/thermo. Comes out to about 75 >or 80% of mass flow rate of stoich fuel mix fuel flow in water will get you >saturated vapor conditions at TDC when it's time for the spark. Any more >than this, and you lose power. mmm Can you clarify - for say 100ml of fuel flow per minute you want 75 to 85 ml water flow ? >Same old saw--gotta have the H2O atomized, but not vaporized until the >intake closes, or you lose because water vapor (molecular weight = 18) >displaces a lot of air (avg. molecular weight =29), thus losing you power. Probably due to heat difference between liquid water and gaseous water at 100deg C transition, ie Latent heat of vaporisation - can swallow large amount of heat... >Ideal amount of water increases with increasing effective compression ratio. Has anyone published any actual curves, water flow vs power vs CR vs Fuel or anything even similar ? Rgds :) mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #103 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".