DIY_EFI Digest Wednesday, March 15 2000 Volume 05 : Number 104 In this issue: CFI Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: H2O pump Re: water into efi system before injectors. Corvair EFI/CFI Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: water into efi system before injectors. Crack valve availability Re: H2O pump Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: H2O pump Re: Crack valve availability Re: Sources for connectors? Paddle Shifters - Electronic Trans Controller Re: Crack valve availability Looking for obscure connector See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:17:48 -0500 From: "Clare Snyder" Subject: CFI Not technically EFI, but FI anyway. I have a 140 HP Corvair 6 cyl engine that came with 4 carbs. I want to put injection on it for airboat/aircraft use. It will run a maximum of 3500RPM, putting out (hopefully) about 100-110 HP. My thought was to use a 4 cyl Bosch K-Jet type system (most likely K-E) with one injector in each carb inlet port. Any reason this will not work? The 'vair is a 2.7 Litre (164 inch) engine. What relatively common (in north america) engine of 2 liters or more used K-Jet? Thanks - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 08:11:50 -0700 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. >At 08:20 PM 13/3/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >>No papers I know of, but have done the math/thermo. Comes out to about 75 >>or 80% of mass flow rate of stoich fuel mix fuel flow in water will get you >>saturated vapor conditions at TDC when it's time for the spark. Any more >>than this, and you lose power. > >mmm Can you clarify - for say 100ml of fuel flow per minute you want >75 to 85 ml water flow ? !00 GRAMS of fuel flow would equate to 75 or 85 GRAMS of fuel flow--the water is denser than the fuel, though. > >>Same old saw--gotta have the H2O atomized, but not vaporized until the >>intake closes, or you lose because water vapor (molecular weight = 18) >>displaces a lot of air (avg. molecular weight =29), thus losing you power. > >Probably due to heat difference between liquid water and gaseous water >at 100deg C transition, ie Latent heat of vaporisation - can swallow >large amount of heat... Precisely. What is going on is the compression stroke begins to act a lot more like an isothermal process than an adiabatic one. Consequently, much less power goes into the compression stroke. Temperature at TDC (ignition event) is MUCH lower--on the order of 235 to 250 degrees F, instead of 900 degrees or so. Lower peak temp after burn means less power available on the expansion (power) stroke, but this is more than completely balanced by the lower negative power on the compression stroke. (About 1.5% net gain.) Lower peak cycle temp means significantly lower losses to water jackets, though, so net gain becomes still greater. Durability is of course significantly improved with the lower temps. Lower temps and lower partial air and fuel vapor pressures at TDC help avoid detonation, and there is also the detonation resistance added by the highly polar chemical nature of the water molecules themselves and that effect on the free radical detonation precursor molecules during the combustion process itself. > >>Ideal amount of water increases with increasing effective compression ratio. Basically this means that with higher compression ratio, there is more work available to provide latent heat with which to evaporate the water. Lots of folks don't realize that engines running straight methanol fuel have _NOT_ evaporated all of the fuel at TDC!! Not enough work available to provide the needed latent heat! The first part of the burn provides heat to finish evaporating the fuel. > >Has anyone published any actual curves, water flow vs power vs CR vs Fuel >or anything even similar ? Never seen any, Riccardo published as much as I have seen. Greg > >Rgds > >:) mike > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 23:42:42 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: H2O pump At 07:49 AM 14/3/2000 -0500, you wrote: >>trouble is any decent 12v water pump at 60psi (anywhere) just ain't cheap, >>got any ideas for readily available 45 to 60psi 12/24v DC pumps ? > >RV/camper drinking water supply pump? 3.5-5 GPM, less than $100. Tah Barry, I've seen some of these, like the inline booster pumps in boats, trouble is they are immersion types, low pressure, weak plastic bodies. I've tried an Irish pump very common in Australia - the "Whale" - great name aye ? Trouble is its a centrifugal immersion one and water eventually leaks into the motor past the seal - that is - if you are running into a reasonable pressure head... Used this for cooling system bubble purge. I'm about to try a couple of cheap pumps in series, though they don't look that robust - not much middle end industrial stuff in Australia at a reasonable price, (best I have is 45psi at $260 +-$50). Tah :) mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 00:07:27 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. At 08:11 AM 14/3/2000 -0700, bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) wrote: >>mmm Can you clarify - for say 100ml of fuel flow per minute you want >>75 to 85 ml water flow ? > >!00 GRAMS of fuel flow would equate to 75 or 85 GRAMS of fuel flow--the >water is denser than the fuel, though. Of course by 0.78 or thereabouts... >Precisely. What is going on is the compression stroke begins to act a lot >more like an isothermal process than an adiabatic one. Consequently, much >less power goes into the compression stroke. Temperature at TDC (ignition >event) is MUCH lower--on the order of 235 to 250 degrees F, instead of 900 >degrees or so. That seems like a *very* large difference - can you approximate the minimum level of water injection for the largest drop in TDC temperature ? >Lower peak temp after burn means less power available on the expansion >(power) stroke, but this is more than completely balanced by the lower >negative power on the compression stroke. (About 1.5% net gain.) This may well explain why many who try WI say - "it makes no difference" or the "difference is hardly worth it" - when the reality is its an alteration of the combustion putting less overall stress on the chamber etc. >Lower peak cycle temp means significantly lower losses to water jackets, >though, so net gain becomes still greater. > >Durability is of course significantly improved with the lower temps. Thats something I wanted to impart to a local chap (not net savy) who says "just add more fuel instead" to get rid of pinging, when I'm suggesting the heat of vaporisation is useful to reduce charge temp and WI will improve fuel economy over just adding fuel to stop pinging. Here is a classic case of practical experience not showing the whole story - unless we could measure instantaneous temp in chamber at TDC. Because the average outcome looks the same as before WI - most people dismiss it as a waste of time and point to risk of corrosion to engine and exhaust from Nitric acids - reality is less Nox produced due to lower charge temp...There's also the inconvenience factor of adding water all the time. Does it really have to be distilled water - can regular tap water be used given the turbulence in the chamber would likely flush out most deposits. One local did say that using WI for long periods results in far less carbon buildups in the chamber. >Lower temps and lower partial air and fuel vapor pressures at TDC help >avoid detonation, and there is also the detonation resistance added by the >highly polar chemical nature of the water molecules themselves and that >effect on the free radical detonation precursor molecules during the >combustion process itself. Interesting, never knew that - great description. >Basically this means that with higher compression ratio, there is more work >available to provide latent heat with which to evaporate the water. > >Lots of folks don't realize that engines running straight methanol fuel >have _NOT_ evaporated all of the fuel at TDC!! Not enough work available to >provide the needed latent heat! The first part of the burn provides heat to >finish evaporating the fuel. mmm - Tah - never knew that either >>Has anyone published any actual curves, water flow vs power vs CR vs Fuel >>or anything even similar ? > >Never seen any, Riccardo published as much as I have seen. Don't know of that - any pointers ? Rgds :) mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:51:53 -0500 From: Joe Curran Subject: Corvair EFI/CFI Clare, I don't know enough about EFI/CFI to tell you if the K-Jet will or won't work, but I can tell you that running a 140 using all four carb inlets full time is a bad idea. The positioning of the primary carbs on a 140 (and on all other 2 carb engines, and even on the turbo) ensures that the air in the intake manifold changes direction between each cylinder firing event. If you add a second set of carbs, or FIs, or whatever, the cylinders nearest the secondaries (1 and 6, I believe) will get more than their share of fuel and air. This can cause overheating => dropped valve seat. For ease of use, you may want to start with a 110 engine, (with my driving habits, mine spends a lot of time cruising just fine at 3500 rpm), Or you may want to block off the secondary carb inlets and just run with two TBIs. If you do go with 4, you'll probably want something similar to the progressive linkage ('66-'69) or WOT only linkage ('65) that closes the secondary at cruising speed throttle position. If you already know this, I apologize for wasting bandwidth. I won't bore this list with more Corvair specific info, although I will appeal for help with my long-term project, EFI using TWM's Weber 3-barrel throttle bodies, and either an SDS module or a GM unit swiped from a 3.1 or 3.8L V6. Someone on this list must have done something similar. Anyone? For more Corvair specific info, ask VV for help. virtualvairs@xxx.com Good luck, - -Joe Curran espace@xxx.edu '66 Corvair Monza coupe w/'67 110/PG > Not technically EFI, but FI anyway. > I have a 140 HP Corvair 6 cyl engine that came with 4 carbs. I want to put > injection on it for airboat/aircraft use. It will run a maximum of 3500RPM, > putting out (hopefully) about 100-110 HP. > My thought was to use a 4 cyl Bosch K-Jet type system (most likely K-E) with > one injector in each carb inlet port. Any reason this will not work? The > 'vair is a 2.7 Litre (164 inch) engine. > What relatively common (in north america) engine of 2 liters or more used > K-Jet? > Thanks - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:58:18 -0500 From: "Swayze" Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. so, without getting into details, a normally aspirated high compression motor could use this to prevent knock by lowering combustion temperatures. Now could this be knock sensor triggered? would the H2O anti knock rob more.or less. power than retarding the spark? (rough numbers). my application would benefit from a good form of antiknock, that is why I am asking. I don't plan on turbo route and won't always be able to 93 octane. would like to kick compression up to 10:1 or so on pump gas(regularly). byE Mike Swayze mswayze@xxx.com kswayze@xxx.net - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Hermann" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2000 10:11 AM Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. > >At 08:20 PM 13/3/2000 -0700, you wrote: > > > >>No papers I know of, but have done the math/thermo. Comes out to about 75 > >>or 80% of mass flow rate of stoich fuel mix fuel flow in water will get you ........... ? > > !00 GRAMS of fuel flow would equate to 75 or 85 GRAMS of fuel flow--the > water is denser than the fuel, though. > > > >>Same old saw--gotta have the H2O atomized, but not vaporized until the > >>intake closes, or you lose because water vapor (molecular weight = 18) > >>displaces a lot of air (avg. molecular weight =29), thus losing you power. > > > >Probably due to heat difference between liquid water and gaseous water > >at 100deg C transition, ie Latent heat of vaporisation - can swallow > >large amount of heat... > > Precisely. What is going on is the compression stroke begins to act a lot > more like an isothermal process than an adiabatic one. Consequently, much > less power goes into the compression stroke. Temperature at TDC (ignition > event) is MUCH lower--on the order of 235 to 250 degrees F, instead of 900 > degrees or so. > > Lower peak temp after burn means less power available on the expansion > (power) stroke, but this is more than completely balanced by the lower > negative power on the compression stroke. (About 1.5% net gain.) > > Lower peak cycle temp means significantly lower losses to water jackets, > though, so net gain becomes still greater. > > Durability is of course significantly improved with the lower temps. > > Lower temps and lower partial air and fuel vapor pressures at TDC help > avoid detonation, and there is also the detonation resistance added by the > highly polar chemical nature of the water molecules themselves and that > effect on the free radical detonation precursor molecules during the > combustion process itself. > > > > > >>Ideal amount of water increases with increasing effective compression ratio. > > Basically this means that with higher compression ratio, there is more work > available to provide latent heat with which to evaporate the water. > > Lots of folks don't realize that engines running straight methanol fuel > have _NOT_ evaporated all of the fuel at TDC!! Not enough work available to > provide the needed latent heat! The first part of the burn provides heat to > finish evaporating the fuel. > > > >Has anyone published any actual curves, water flow vs power vs CR vs Fuel > >or anything even similar ? > > Never seen any, Riccardo published as much as I have seen. > > Greg > > > >Rgds > > > >:) mike > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:34:26 -0700 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. >>Precisely. What is going on is the compression stroke begins to act a lot >>more like an isothermal process than an adiabatic one. Consequently, much >>less power goes into the compression stroke. Temperature at TDC (ignition >>event) is MUCH lower--on the order of 235 to 250 degrees F, instead of 900 >>degrees or so. > >That seems like a *very* large difference - can you approximate the minimum >level of water injection for the largest drop in TDC temperature ? It's pretty much proportional. The 75 to 80% numbers that I gave are the approximate upper limit, beyond which any more water is NOT beneficial. The trick is to get it to where the partial pressure of water vapor in the chamber just reaches "saturation" conditions --a bit more water, and the chamber would be too cool, and some of the water would not be evaporated due to no energy being available to provide the needed latent heat, a bit less water, and the chamber would get a bit hotter, and the saturation point with respect to water vapor pressure would not be reached. > most people >dismiss it as a waste of time and point to risk of corrosion to engine >and exhaust from Nitric acids - reality is less Nox produced due to lower >charge temp...There's also the inconvenience factor of adding water >all the time. This talk is mostly poppycock! As long as the temperature of the exhaust leaving the chamber does not drop below the dew point of the acid involved, not much danger of such corrosion exists, at least internally to the engine. The CHANGE in water content in the exhaust is only on the order of 25 or 30% anyway, besides! Remember, water is already a product of hydrocarbon combustion! > >Does it really have to be distilled water - can regular tap water be >used given the turbulence in the chamber would likely flush out most >deposits. I would guess that any tap water up to perhaps 300 or perhaps 500 ppm TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) would be just fine. Just use stainless fuel system parts, and injectors rated for alchohol. Some solutes found in tap water--particularly gypsum (calcium sulfate)--experience reduced solubility as the water temperature rises, so one needs to be careful of this phenomenon in the water plumbing near the engine (where it gets warm). But--since the system is essentially a through flowing system, the dissolved solids will not tend to build up in the system, as they would, say, in a boiler, where the solids keep getting added, but only the water leaves. > >One local did say that using WI for long periods results in far less >carbon buildups in the chamber. Absolutely. > >>Lots of folks don't realize that engines running straight methanol fuel >>have _NOT_ evaporated all of the fuel at TDC!! Not enough work available to >>provide the needed latent heat! The first part of the burn provides heat to >>finish evaporating the fuel. > >mmm - Tah - never knew that either It is why, despite the fact that methanol provides MORE heat of combustion per pound of air pumped through an engine, the engine will have poor fuel efficiency. It is also why methanal fueled engines have such a propensity for fouling their plugs before they are completely warmed up. > >>Never seen any, Riccardo published as much as I have seen. > >Don't know of that - any pointers ? "The Internal Combustion Engine"--by Sir Harry Riccardo. You might also want to try "Internal Combustion Engines and Air Pollution" by Edward F. Obert.. Try Amazon.com, that's where I got the latter. Greg - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 09:39:05 -0700 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. >so, without getting into details, a normally aspirated high compression >motor could use this to prevent knock by lowering combustion temperatures. >Now could this be knock sensor triggered? would the H2O anti knock rob >more.or less. power than retarding the spark? (rough numbers). Water injection won't rob any power if you keep the water quantity from going too high. Greg - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 10:16:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. - -> Has anyone published any actual curves, water flow vs power vs CR vs - -> Fuel or anything even similar ? Go to naca.larc.nasa.gov and search on 'water injection'. NASA is slowly putting up .pdfs of the technical reports they sponsored when they were NACA, 1917-1958. Many of these are the primary documents referenced in the "Usual Sources", ie Taylor, Heywood, Heisler, et. al. That is, raw experimental data, not "interpreted" data or dumbed-down textbook stuff. The larc site has links to other NASA sites with technical papers available. Some have some useful stuff, though larc is the mother lode, so far. The US Department of Energy has an enormous collection of technical papers online. The ones most applicable to us are straight combustion stuff, for stationary powerplants. The DOE's site is so huge it's hard to find the good stuff. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 01:31:23 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. At 10:16 AM 14/3/2000 -0500, dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) wrote: >-> Has anyone published any actual curves, water flow vs power vs CR vs >-> Fuel or anything even similar ? > > Go to naca.larc.nasa.gov and search on 'water injection'. NASA is >slowly putting up .pdfs of the technical reports they sponsored when >they were NACA, 1917-1958. Many of these are the primary documents >referenced in the "Usual Sources", ie Taylor, Heywood, Heisler, et. al. >That is, raw experimental data, not "interpreted" data or dumbed-down >textbook stuff. mmm Great - what an interesting resource, amazing the sort of work done - "way back when". > The larc site has links to other NASA sites with technical papers >available. Some have some useful stuff, though larc is the mother lode, >so far. Yes looks great, > The US Department of Energy has an enormous collection of technical >papers online. The ones most applicable to us are straight combustion >stuff, for stationary powerplants. The DOE's site is so huge it's hard >to find the good stuff. I'm not brave to try yet ;) Tah :) Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:28:39 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Cheap is relative; they are one of the only ones that make enough pressure so that the h2o is actually a mist. I've tinkered with lots of h2o injection systems, and the best by far is what we're running on the pulling tractor. It operates at 200 PSI, and truely mists the water. With boost at 60 this is a all around high pressure system. In our testing it was really interesting when we got the pressures high enough how "cloudlike" the discharges got. With an inline 6 getting even distribution is aout the hardest setup (log manifold), so things got to be right or it's instant death. To get our pressure/volume takes a 12v Ford Starter on 24v running an agriculturial pump. Soon I got to get going on one for my own car, and eill be posting numbers for parts for it. Even if I was running a h2o system on N/A I'd still keep to pressures as high as possible, to get the distribution as best as possible. Trouble with the H2O is that in effect you wind up with wet walls, but I think in the Turbo applications that is more then made up for by the cooling effect it has. I might also mention that on the puller h2o the paints gets baked so that it turns black, prior to the water injection nozzles, but is perfectly "colored" right where they are tied in. Which is right at the turbo discharge. Grumpy > >BTW: see http://www.aquamist.co.uk for water-injection system components. > Yeah - I've got that in my bookmarks, tah - but expensive for what they do > though. > trouble is any decent 12v water pump at 60psi (anywhere) just ain't cheap, > got any ideas for readily available 45 to 60psi 12/24v DC pumps ? > Rgds - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:32:22 +0000 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. At 20:20 13/03/00 -0700, Greg Hermann wrote: >>yea well, so much for hooking up a mapsensor to the windshield wiper >>motor....... >> >>seriously, are there any papers which discuss the pertinent math involved in >>water injection for non-turbo apps? >>byE >>Mike >>Swayze > >No papers I know of, but have done the math/thermo. Comes out to about 75 >or 80% of mass flow rate of stoich fuel mix fuel flow in water will get you >saturated vapor conditions at TDC when it's time for the spark. Any more >than this, and you lose power. > >Same old saw--gotta have the H2O atomized, but not vaporized until the >intake closes, or you lose because water vapor (molecular weight = 18) >displaces a lot of air (avg. molecular weight =29), thus losing you power. > >Ideal amount of water increases with increasing effective compression ratio. So what is the deal with water inj on NA engines? I understand why it is good on turbos but why on NA engines? Does it allow you to run higher CR or something? How much increase are we looking at?? Ade - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:32:22 +0000 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. At 20:20 13/03/00 -0700, Greg Hermann wrote: >>yea well, so much for hooking up a mapsensor to the windshield wiper >>motor....... >> >>seriously, are there any papers which discuss the pertinent math involved in >>water injection for non-turbo apps? >>byE >>Mike >>Swayze > >No papers I know of, but have done the math/thermo. Comes out to about 75 >or 80% of mass flow rate of stoich fuel mix fuel flow in water will get you >saturated vapor conditions at TDC when it's time for the spark. Any more >than this, and you lose power. > >Same old saw--gotta have the H2O atomized, but not vaporized until the >intake closes, or you lose because water vapor (molecular weight = 18) >displaces a lot of air (avg. molecular weight =29), thus losing you power. > >Ideal amount of water increases with increasing effective compression ratio. So what is the deal with water inj on NA engines? I understand why it is good on turbos but why on NA engines? Does it allow you to run higher CR or something? How much increase are we looking at?? Ade - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 03:11:02 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Crack valve availability Hi chaps, Any idea where one would get (small, 1/4") crack valves for water injection tests. Ideally I'd like to explore a crack valve in the cylinder head which passes water - from extermal solenoid (no rooom for this in the head) at 130deg C and at about 100 to 150psi (still liquid hopefully) such that its injected at or near TDC - directly incylinder... What I mean by crack valve in this context is:- a. Releases at predefined pressure differential I'm guessing 130psi as a starting point for water that still liquid - want to use the vaporisation to help \ 'non-fuelled' expansion. b. Non return operation c. Small enough to machine into head and plumb around cams and other valve gear for external (outside cam cover) control. Ostensibly to spray onto the piston crown at a precise time (with or without any fuel), flame suit on, just in this this is a completely idiotic thing to explore... If its been doen before - shoot me ;) Incidentally German U boats with double ended pistons used water to cool chambers - as a consequence they got a staggering 40 to 50% improvement in fuel economy when the water was injected 'at the right time', Comments ? Tah :) mike Perth, Western Australia - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 13:28:07 -0500 From: Barry Tisdale Subject: Re: H2O pump The one I use for my Syclone IC circulator pump = ShurFlo - Positive displacement (triple diaphragm type), plastic = yes, but not too shabby, not a submersible deal at all. Barry At 11:42 PM 03/14/2000, you wrote: > >I've seen some of these, like the inline booster pumps in boats, trouble >is they are immersion types, low pressure, weak plastic bodies. I've >tried an Irish pump very common in Australia - the "Whale" - great name >aye ? Trouble is its a centrifugal immersion one and water eventually >leaks into the motor past the seal - that is - if you are running into >a reasonable pressure head... Used this for cooling system bubble purge. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:29:00 -0500 From: dave.williams@xxx.us (Dave Williams) Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. - -> mmm Great - what an interesting resource, amazing the sort of work - -> done - "way back when". It was interesting to note about half of the papers dealing with piston engines were on Diesels. Airships ran Diesels, and it was widely accepted that Diesel engines would eventually become the standard for aircraft. Then those danged turbojets came along and hosed everyone's plans... There are several papers on hydrogen-burning Diesels. Why such a weird fuel? Well, with a bazillion cubic feet of it in the gasbag of an airship, why not use the same gas for lift *and* fuel? There are also many papers on hot-wire anemometers and their calibration, how to make your own strain guages, and... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 16:57:18 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: H2O pump Does Shurflo have a wesite?. Grumpy > The one I use for my Syclone IC circulator pump = ShurFlo - Positive > displacement (triple diaphragm type), plastic = yes, but not too shabby, > not a submersible deal at all. > > Barry > > At 11:42 PM 03/14/2000, you wrote: > > > >I've seen some of these, like the inline booster pumps in boats, trouble > >is they are immersion types, low pressure, weak plastic bodies. I've > >tried an Irish pump very common in Australia - the "Whale" - great name > >aye ? Trouble is its a centrifugal immersion one and water eventually > >leaks into the motor past the seal - that is - if you are running into > >a reasonable pressure head... Used this for cooling system bubble purge. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 17:00:59 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: Crack valve availability Me thinks your going way overboard, with a lot of time effort money, for the difference in a well executed wet manifold system, vs what your doing. Earl's Plumbing, used to have some low pressure cracking valves Grumpy > Hi chaps, > Any idea where one would get (small, 1/4") crack valves for water > injection tests. > Ideally I'd like to explore a crack valve in the cylinder head which > passes water - from extermal solenoid (no rooom for this in the head) > at 130deg C and at about 100 to 150psi (still liquid hopefully) such > that its injected at or near TDC - directly incylinder... > What I mean by crack valve in this context is:- > a. Releases at predefined pressure differential > I'm guessing 130psi as a starting point for water that > still liquid - want to use the vaporisation to help > \ 'non-fuelled' expansion. > b. Non return operation > c. Small enough to machine into head and plumb around cams > and other valve gear for external (outside cam cover) control. > Ostensibly to spray onto the piston crown at a precise time (with or > without any fuel), flame suit on, just in this this is a > completely idiotic thing to explore... > If its been doen before - shoot me ;) > Incidentally German U boats with double ended pistons used water to > cool chambers - as a consequence they got a staggering 40 to 50% improvement > in fuel economy when the water was injected 'at the right time', > Comments ? > Tah > :) mike > Perth, Western Australia - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2000 15:03:35 -0700 From: "Peacock, Ken" Subject: Re: Sources for connectors? Try SunPro http://www.actron.com/cgi-bin/web_store.cgi?page=price1.htm&cart_id=4889526_ 20302 CP9115 GM OBD II Cable 34.99 DB15 -> GM OBD II 10 feet long - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:05:36 -0800 From: "Walter Sherwin" Subject: Paddle Shifters - Electronic Trans Controller Someone recently, at either DIY or GMECM, made mention of the concept of "paddle" shifting an electronically controlled trans either in the context of TCC, or 4L80E valve bodies, or aftermarket controllers, or ??????....... I remember reading the message, but can no longer seem to find it anywhere. Does anyone recall this? Can anyone point me toward that discussion thread? Walt. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 01:41:39 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: Crack valve availability At 05:00 PM 14/3/2000 -0500, you wrote: > >Me thinks your going way overboard, with a lot of time effort money, for the >difference in a well executed wet manifold system, vs what your doing. mmmm Are you saying there would be sufficient water in contact with hottest part of engine if derived from manifold alone - ? IMHO, The precision of a crack valve spraying onto piston crown with or without a deferred fuel cycle would be of more efficiency then via manifold alone and of interest to test... If I can do it cost effectively then i would like to pursue it, I have spare heads and knowledge of controls, all I need are the crack valves and a way to insert them in the appropriate place (there's a joke somewhere;). > Earl's Plumbing, used to have some low pressure cracking valves is "Earl's" a synonym for 'any' plumber or am I being too technical ;-) I never thought any (conventional) plumbers would have a small enough and perhaps alterable valve to suit in cylinder insertion - I suppose I should start ringing around plumbing engineering firms ? Any machinist's, hydraulic engineers on this list ? Saw a diesel crack valve the other day *very* large but, it was around 1000psi for a 500cc or so single cylinder. SHouldn't it be possible to find/make a valve thats around 1/4" dia and around 1/2 to 3/4" long for 1/8th pipe - or thereabouts ? Rgds Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 13:31:48 -0500 (EST) From: Colin Goodall Subject: Looking for obscure connector I am in the process of trying to track down the connector for the EFI computer on a 1982 Honda CX 500 Turbo (Motorcycle). The computer is manufactured by Nippondenso and has a 35 pin connector. Pins are 3 mm wide on 5 mm centers. There are two rows: 1 with 17 pins and a second with 18 pins. The engagement of the connector is via a lever motion. One end hooks in and the connector is levered down into place where it clicks into place. The connector I am looking for is the male side of the connector which is part of the computer. On this side I can find no identifying marks as to manufacturer or part number. However on the female side I found the connector marked as an AMP product with part number 171715. Much searching on the AMP site provided no information. However I did find a printed AMP catalogue which contained a whole series of connectors that seemed to be the correct type. The go by the name "AMP Timer Connectors". Out of the whole batch I found only 1 connector on their web site. It was AMP part number 2-825213-5. I found only 1 supplier which listed the part number but when I conteacted them they had no more in stock. If anyone knows a source for this part (or suitable replacement) I would really appreciate it. Thanx Colin Goodall goodall@xxx.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #104 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".