DIY_EFI Digest Friday, March 17 2000 Volume 05 : Number 107 In this issue: Re: 18mm sparkplugs Re: Sophisticated scan tool? Re: sparkplug reading - Color Tune Re: Sophisticated scan tool? Re: Sophisticated scan tool? Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #105 Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #105 Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #105 K-jet? Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #105 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 20:16:31 -0600 From: MysticZ Subject: Re: 18mm sparkplugs Programmer wrote: > > Probably a couple reasons...note distance from shell to centre > electrode--harder to foul--promotes less miss-firing ?? I don't really have > a concrete reason. I'm not a ford guy, but I do know that the strange half threaded plugs that some ford heads use is because of the machine that automatically installs plugs at the factory. - -- Steve 97 Chevy Camaro Z28, Mystic teal, A4, not stock 90 Kawasaki EX500A4, black, M6, not even CLOSE to stock! lt1_z28@xxx.net/~lt1_z28 Aluminum, steel, carbon fiber, titanium, and two cast iron balls. McMillan Motorsports- http://www.mmsbikes.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:22:03 PST From: "mike mager" Subject: Re: Sophisticated scan tool? Peter, I accessed the page via your hyperlink, and found "An I-Opening Hack: $200 PC", nothing about a scan tool; suggestions? Thanks, Mike >From: Peter Gargano >Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.org >To: diy_efi@xxx.org >Subject: Sophisticated scan tool? >Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:31:02 +1100 > >Heard about the US$99 scan tool? : > > http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,34977,00.html > >Well maybe? >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 18:43:03 PST From: "mike mager" Subject: Re: sparkplug reading - Color Tune Programmer asked: (complete quotation below) >Can a colortune be sensitive enough to read differences in runner lengths >on a regular intake manifold ?? Good call! The instructions mention that you may need to compromise the mixture setting if there are distribution problems. (So lets go port or direct injection!) Mike >From: "Programmer" >Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.org >To: >Subject: Re: sparkplug reading - Color Tune >Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000 19:19:42 -0700 > >Can a colortune be sensitive enough to read differences in runner lengths >on >a regular intake manifold ?? Just curious...I'd think you'd need at least 4 >of em to do a V8--then set the other half carb. > >Lyndon. >-----Original Message----- >From: nacelp >To: diy_efi@xxx.org> >Date: March 16, 2000 10:40 AM >Subject: Re: sparkplug reading - Color Tune > > > > > >> I was greatly relieved to find that TRF (The Roadster Factory) had the > >Color > >> Tune in stock (not out of production); I got mine (with no shipping > >delay!) > >> for about 50USD. > >> > >> Do any of you have experience with Color Tune? David Vizard says that > >> sparkplug reading is a very unreliable way of setting mixture strength; > >he > >> likes to use an EGO and a Color Tune. > > > >Ya, right, if your working on a dyno, or an idling engine. Want to seat > >under the hood while someone makes a pass at 110MPH?. EGO, ya fine, ya >got > >$5K for a good one. Can't use either in some catagoryies of racing. >Both > >have there places, and lots of folks happen to be pretty good reading >plugs. > >Technology won't replace talent. Using $$$$ equipment might be handy for >a > >pro, and a crutch for the lessers, but experience can make up for either. > > It boils down to starting conservatively, and optimizing from there. > >Yes, at times I use an ancient Color Tune for working on 1951 MG/TDs. >Just > >seems right..... > > > > I won't just automatically believe > >> everything that I read, but his suggestion does at least pass a first > >check > >> of reasonableness. > > > >Not in my book > >Grumpy > > > >> Mike > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >- > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the >quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 14:33:58 +1100 From: Peter Gargano Subject: Re: Sophisticated scan tool? Okay, the story (from Wired News): > With a minor cable tweak, an engineer jerry-rigged > his new, US$99 Net "appliance" into a fully functional > Pentium PC. check: specs at http://www.netpliance.com/iopener/specs.asp some pics at http://www.netpliance.com/iopener/tour1.asp main URL at http://www.netpliance.com Now, for US$99, or with a 2 Gb HDD ~ US$200, this guy has a Pentium (without a floppy). I figure at this price, plus a bit of software, this has to be the ultimate base for a "scantool". Okay, I admit the EFI content was limited, but if I had access to one of these units, I'd be buying it with a view to using it in a vehicle, either as a "sacntool" or some other diagnostic/tuning role. Someone want to buy one for me (I'll pay you back, honest)? PG. mike mager wrote: > > Peter, > I accessed the page via your hyperlink, and found "An I-Opening Hack: $200 > PC", nothing about a scan tool; suggestions? > > Thanks, > Mike > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:39:27 -0500 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Sophisticated scan tool? I can't seem to get there from here. Shannen mike mager wrote: > > Peter, > I accessed the page via your hyperlink, and found "An I-Opening Hack: $200 > PC", nothing about a scan tool; suggestions? > > Thanks, > Mike > > >From: Peter Gargano > >Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.org > >To: diy_efi@xxx.org > >Subject: Sophisticated scan tool? > >Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:31:02 +1100 > > > >Heard about the US$99 scan tool? : > > > > http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,34977,00.html > > > >Well maybe? > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:54:47 +0800 From: "Ken Thompson" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #105 From: Kevin Jaeger kjaeger@xxx.au Dear Bernd, So long as my bum (arse) points to the ground, K-Jets will always be a dog. Must have made MB a huge packet of $$ in spares in places like South Africa. I refer to areas of SA, that might be visited by the Leyland Brothers. "Leyland Bros Do SA", might be a good title. They had better have their RAC cards with them, if running a K-Jet fitted vehicle. A friend used to run the service department for a large Mercedes dealership in South Africa. How would you like to do the service call for one of your best clients, who asks you to come and fix a dead MB? The twist was that the Benz was stuck in the middle of a lion park and I don't mean the "Lions Club of Manly South". I refer to those lions that have been known to consume the odd human being, from time to time. I do not need Probst's book to understand the operation of the K-Jet fuel system. I am sorry you misunderstood my comment in relation to ECUs and water. I was not referring to an ECU that may or may not be fitted to a K-Jet to operate it's accessories. I have had many of these things in pieces and have built many pieces of test equipment to monitor / test the operation of K-Jet components and K-Jet systems. We used to have a mock up test bed where we could set up the air / fuel regulator, injectors and fuel pump etc. The test fluid was white spirit. Clair would know well why white spirit was used in place of petrol. Every function of operation could be tested. The worst enemy of K-Jet is bad fuel and water and you want to advise Clair to install such a system to her boat? Bernd, you have acquainted the LUCAS fuel system to the Prince of Darkness. I guess this is your summary after a full laboratory evaluation of both systems? Do you know how the LUCAS system works? Are you aware of the number of race wins that the LUCAS fuel system has had in open wheel racing cars, sports cars and in all manner of speed boats. Sorry Bernd, I do not see K-Jet raising it's ugly head very often, in amongst that lot. I am happy to provide examples, set out back to back tests and name names as to why I believe that your Prince of Darkness (LUCAS), is a much better system than the common K-Jet. I am asking you to provide us all with your own scientific evaluation which resulted in your conclusion. LUCAS = Prince of Darkness You may check with Kinsler just to see how many in their customer base are using K-Jets for top level motor sport in 2000. I have hard chromed the K-Jet fuel head spools, ground and micro polished them, made new spools from case carburised EN36A and micro honed the valve barrel to suit. Please do not say this cannot be done, as a friends engineering company has been making one off diesel fuel pump elements for the passed 20 years and makes a lot of money reconditioning these pumps. Please do not take these comments out of context, K-Jet is not a diesel. I am right up with what can and cannot be done. Ray Hall's engines have either won or been runner up in the World Championships in his class of boat, for as long as I can remember. They won and were runners ups at the last World Championships. Ray Hall is a DOER not a talker. Are you a reader (of Probst) and just a talker or are you a doer? I want to hear what YOU have done, not what Probst has done. Click here Bernd www.turbofast.com.au/img/eng1.jpg and check out one of Ray's 1,500 HP fuel injected engines. I am well aware that with correct precautions, ECUs are fine on the water. My friend Ray makes a living out of the water. I have gotten our gear into almost every serious race engine shop in Australia, including Holden Racing Team and General Motors Holdens. We are already measuring the type of physical phenomena that you are TALKING about measuring. We have already made the measurements and comparisons that you read about. I would have thought a Corvair engine, a LUCAS fuel distributor and a ripper set of Triumph throttle bodies would have been a pretty good place to start with Clair's conversion ? Please provide us all with the logic you used to make your assumption (scientific evaluation), which places LUCAS on the Dark Side? I am busting to hear your reasoning on that one. The people at Kinsler made a statement, it is in their bible. "The Lucas system is presently the best available for racing. The advantage is very precise metering at any RPM and throttle setting and excellent vapour handling", I happen to agree with Kinsler. Please remember, they were not including Motec and other EFI systems in that evaluation. They were including every K-Jet system ever made. Your evaluation must be going to reveal something that Kinsler and the others must have missed. One thing I ought to add in relation to air flow through K-Jets air valve and air box. Reminds me of the air box and air cleaner on my 20 year old Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine. Both have the most diabolically bad air flow dynamics, known to man. Is bad air flow good, when applied to performance related engine development? I'll slip this one in as there has been a lot on turbos, measuring turbine speeds as one of the physical pheno for the ECU to crunch. Hmm? I hear talk of tuned runner lengths (which is great, all about better cylinder fill and wave motion). What differential pressure (induction wave) is about the best we can achieve in a highly tuned normally aspirated racing engine, sitting on its maximum torque RPM? So now then, lets start induction boosting. At what boost pressure does this wave action become less significant / insignificant when running the same engine? Regards, Kevin. > Date: Thu, 16 Mar 100 16:09:02 +0800 (WST) > From: Bernd Felsche > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #104 / CFI > > >From: Kevin Jaeger kjaeger@xxx.au > > >I was with you Re your comments on "stoic", but K-Jet is a diabolically ugly > >mouse trap. It does not like the slightest contamination when in a Mercedes > >Benz car and therefore would hate your boat. Tuning will not be very easy. > > K-Jet is beautifully-simple. It's the electronic addons and > cold-start junk that's the bug-bear. > > >I guess one can get away with a lot on land (in a car), where the ecu lives > > K-Jet has no ECU until you go for KE-Jet. > > The purely mechanical K-Jet isn't all that difficult to set up if > you have the equipment and know-how. Probst's book describes the > system well. > > >in the kick panel, away from corrosion. The same exposed GM ecu in a boat > >would not live long at all. A friend who I have heard mentioned here on a > >number of occasions, builds 1,500 HP boats, I refer to Ray Hall > >www.turbofast.com.au Now in this situation, money is no object so the ecu > >does not get wet and it stays cool and if the boat crashes and sinks, they > >build another one. > > The reservation I have about K-Jet on a boat is the zinc castings. > > >I think there is still a place for carbies in this world and you situation > >is a likely candidate. > > Nothing wrong with a good TDI on the water. :-) > > >In Australia the wreckers do no want Triumphs fitted with LUCAS systems, > >you'd have to pay the wrecker to take the car. Rigging up a LUCAS system > >would be much easier than K-Jet and is certainly much more compact. I > > LUCAS - "the prince of darkness" :-) > > >wouldn't know a Corvair if I fell over one, but I think that the Triumph > >butterfly sets would be easy to adapt, than Bosch's "fuel / air" valve > >system. > > - -- > Real Name: Bernd Felsche > Email: nospam.bernie@xxx.au > http://www.perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie - Private HP - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 13:54:47 +0800 From: "Ken Thompson" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #105 From: Kevin Jaeger kjaeger@xxx.au Dear Bernd, So long as my bum (arse) points to the ground, K-Jets will always be a dog. Must have made MB a huge packet of $$ in spares in places like South Africa. I refer to areas of SA, that might be visited by the Leyland Brothers. "Leyland Bros Do SA", might be a good title. They had better have their RAC cards with them, if running a K-Jet fitted vehicle. A friend used to run the service department for a large Mercedes dealership in South Africa. How would you like to do the service call for one of your best clients, who asks you to come and fix a dead MB? The twist was that the Benz was stuck in the middle of a lion park and I don't mean the "Lions Club of Manly South". I refer to those lions that have been known to consume the odd human being, from time to time. I do not need Probst's book to understand the operation of the K-Jet fuel system. I am sorry you misunderstood my comment in relation to ECUs and water. I was not referring to an ECU that may or may not be fitted to a K-Jet to operate it's accessories. I have had many of these things in pieces and have built many pieces of test equipment to monitor / test the operation of K-Jet components and K-Jet systems. We used to have a mock up test bed where we could set up the air / fuel regulator, injectors and fuel pump etc. The test fluid was white spirit. Clair would know well why white spirit was used in place of petrol. Every function of operation could be tested. The worst enemy of K-Jet is bad fuel and water and you want to advise Clair to install such a system to her boat? Bernd, you have acquainted the LUCAS fuel system to the Prince of Darkness. I guess this is your summary after a full laboratory evaluation of both systems? Do you know how the LUCAS system works? Are you aware of the number of race wins that the LUCAS fuel system has had in open wheel racing cars, sports cars and in all manner of speed boats. Sorry Bernd, I do not see K-Jet raising it's ugly head very often, in amongst that lot. I am happy to provide examples, set out back to back tests and name names as to why I believe that your Prince of Darkness (LUCAS), is a much better system than the common K-Jet. I am asking you to provide us all with your own scientific evaluation which resulted in your conclusion. LUCAS = Prince of Darkness You may check with Kinsler just to see how many in their customer base are using K-Jets for top level motor sport in 2000. I have hard chromed the K-Jet fuel head spools, ground and micro polished them, made new spools from case carburised EN36A and micro honed the valve barrel to suit. Please do not say this cannot be done, as a friends engineering company has been making one off diesel fuel pump elements for the passed 20 years and makes a lot of money reconditioning these pumps. Please do not take these comments out of context, K-Jet is not a diesel. I am right up with what can and cannot be done. Ray Hall's engines have either won or been runner up in the World Championships in his class of boat, for as long as I can remember. They won and were runners ups at the last World Championships. Ray Hall is a DOER not a talker. Are you a reader (of Probst) and just a talker or are you a doer? I want to hear what YOU have done, not what Probst has done. Click here Bernd www.turbofast.com.au/img/eng1.jpg and check out one of Ray's 1,500 HP fuel injected engines. I am well aware that with correct precautions, ECUs are fine on the water. My friend Ray makes a living out of the water. I have gotten our gear into almost every serious race engine shop in Australia, including Holden Racing Team and General Motors Holdens. We are already measuring the type of physical phenomena that you are TALKING about measuring. We have already made the measurements and comparisons that you read about. I would have thought a Corvair engine, a LUCAS fuel distributor and a ripper set of Triumph throttle bodies would have been a pretty good place to start with Clair's conversion ? Please provide us all with the logic you used to make your assumption (scientific evaluation), which places LUCAS on the Dark Side? I am busting to hear your reasoning on that one. The people at Kinsler made a statement, it is in their bible. "The Lucas system is presently the best available for racing. The advantage is very precise metering at any RPM and throttle setting and excellent vapour handling", I happen to agree with Kinsler. Please remember, they were not including Motec and other EFI systems in that evaluation. They were including every K-Jet system ever made. Your evaluation must be going to reveal something that Kinsler and the others must have missed. One thing I ought to add in relation to air flow through K-Jets air valve and air box. Reminds me of the air box and air cleaner on my 20 year old Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine. Both have the most diabolically bad air flow dynamics, known to man. Is bad air flow good, when applied to performance related engine development? I'll slip this one in as there has been a lot on turbos, measuring turbine speeds as one of the physical pheno for the ECU to crunch. Hmm? I hear talk of tuned runner lengths (which is great, all about better cylinder fill and wave motion). What differential pressure (induction wave) is about the best we can achieve in a highly tuned normally aspirated racing engine, sitting on its maximum torque RPM? So now then, lets start induction boosting. At what boost pressure does this wave action become less significant / insignificant when running the same engine? Regards, Kevin. > Date: Thu, 16 Mar 100 16:09:02 +0800 (WST) > From: Bernd Felsche > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #104 / CFI > > >From: Kevin Jaeger kjaeger@xxx.au > > >I was with you Re your comments on "stoic", but K-Jet is a diabolically ugly > >mouse trap. It does not like the slightest contamination when in a Mercedes > >Benz car and therefore would hate your boat. Tuning will not be very easy. > > K-Jet is beautifully-simple. It's the electronic addons and > cold-start junk that's the bug-bear. > > >I guess one can get away with a lot on land (in a car), where the ecu lives > > K-Jet has no ECU until you go for KE-Jet. > > The purely mechanical K-Jet isn't all that difficult to set up if > you have the equipment and know-how. Probst's book describes the > system well. > > >in the kick panel, away from corrosion. The same exposed GM ecu in a boat > >would not live long at all. A friend who I have heard mentioned here on a > >number of occasions, builds 1,500 HP boats, I refer to Ray Hall > >www.turbofast.com.au Now in this situation, money is no object so the ecu > >does not get wet and it stays cool and if the boat crashes and sinks, they > >build another one. > > The reservation I have about K-Jet on a boat is the zinc castings. > > >I think there is still a place for carbies in this world and you situation > >is a likely candidate. > > Nothing wrong with a good TDI on the water. :-) > > >In Australia the wreckers do no want Triumphs fitted with LUCAS systems, > >you'd have to pay the wrecker to take the car. Rigging up a LUCAS system > >would be much easier than K-Jet and is certainly much more compact. I > > LUCAS - "the prince of darkness" :-) > > >wouldn't know a Corvair if I fell over one, but I think that the Triumph > >butterfly sets would be easy to adapt, than Bosch's "fuel / air" valve > >system. > > - -- > Real Name: Bernd Felsche > Email: nospam.bernie@xxx.au > http://www.perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie - Private HP - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 00:04:11 -0800 (PST) From: Roy Subject: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Hi all On the subject of water pumps for water injection. Instead of using a pump to pump the water at the required pressure through the injector, why not pressurise the water container using one of those 12 volt tyre pumps that are a lot cheaper. This way the electric pump is not going to fail due to water ingress and you can control the bottlem pressure using a simple pressure switch. Roy Spectric's Ltd __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 09:40:48 +0100 From: "Espen Hilde" Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #105 K-jet? Hi! Was the last mail a flame.....? Where is the flame of all flames that we had here for some time ago, it was some of the best laugh I had in DIY_EFI. The Triumphs I have seen has always a spot somewhere in their fuel curve thats to rich. Lucas are better for wot and high rpm , but K-jet is MUCH easyer to put on an engine,probably the easiest system of all efi systems ??? I would not start with a corvair engine to have a all out racing engine.This is a low rpm engine . I have infact heard that MB choose to use K-jet for an extended period for the good reliability of the system, could be a joke but MB is known for doing quality choises. Other Lucas products has proved bad quality. The K-jet is measuring the air entering the engine, just bolt it on and drive away. All boats should have a fuel /water separator .A thin film of car body rust protection on the air door and body of the k-jet? I think the K-jet will rust in the hinge of the air door,rust internaly in the fuel distributor,gives problems on a boat.Maybe on fresh water. Espen - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:11:25 +1100 From: Peter Gargano Subject: Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Roy wrote: > ... > On the subject of water pumps for water injection. > ... Hasn't someone invented a water pump that works off engine vacuum, yet? Can't be much more than a diaphragm and a couple of valves, perhaps a spring and some other bits for pressure regulation. This technology would last forever in an H2O and hot air environment of an engine bay. PG. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 100 19:05:59 +0800 (WST) From: Bernd Felsche Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Greg Hermann writes: >>Greg Hermann writes: >>>>so, without getting into details, a normally aspirated high compression >>>>motor could use this to prevent knock by lowering combustion temperatures. >>>>Now could this be knock sensor triggered? would the H2O anti knock rob >>>>more.or less. power than retarding the spark? (rough numbers). >> >>>Water injection won't rob any power if you keep the water quantity from >>>going too high. >>As to determining how much water can be injected, one could consult >>steam tables, etc and determine from the amount of energy, the >>maximum amount of water which can be evaporated during compression. >>You get a small margin of "safety" due to the heat stored in the >>walls of the combustion chamber from the previous cycle. Don't rely >>on it too much or the thermal cycling could become a problem. >This is precisely how I did the calculation that led to the 75--80% of fuel >mass flow rate (at stoich) for a maximum water mass flow rate. Oh good. I was thinking that I had become a complete loser. :-) - -- Real Name: Bernd Felsche Email: nospam.bernie@xxx.au http://www.perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie - Private HP - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 100 20:36:06 +0800 (WST) From: Bernd Felsche Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #105 Ken Thompson writes: >Kevin Jaeger kjaeger@xxx.au Who? >So long as my bum (arse) points to the ground, K-Jets will always be a dog. >Must have made MB a huge packet of $$ in spares in places like South Africa. >I refer to areas of SA, that might be visited by the Leyland Brothers. >"Leyland Bros Do SA", might be a good title. They had better have their RAC >cards with them, if running a K-Jet fitted vehicle. A friend used to run the >service department for a large Mercedes dealership in South Africa. How >would you like to do the service call for one of your best clients, who asks >you to come and fix a dead MB? The twist was that Wow, so my driving a car with K-Jet for about a quarter of a million km without any problems (other than a worn fuel pump), and the similar experience of the many others I know with K-Jet prowered cars counts for nothing. K-Jet must be a monumentally-unsuccessful system to have been chosen by such a large number of car makers with at least 20 million installed units over a period of around 10 years. I think you've inferred too much from my reply. This is all I've said: >> K-Jet is beautifully-simple. It's the electronic addons and i.e. I was expressing an opinion as to the design elegance. I don't doubt that K-Jetronic systems can fail. MB is probably the only manufacturer who bolts the thing on the side of the engine and runs the meter in down-draught. Audi, VW, Porsche, BMW, SAAB and Volvo use it with up-draught metering, according to the original Bosch design. That is not to say that that particular difference leads to unreliability. >I do not need Probst's book to understand the operation of the K-Jet fuel >system. I am sorry you misunderstood my comment in relation to ECUs and >water. I was not referring to an ECU that may or may not be fitted to a >K-Jet >to operate it's accessories. I have had many of these things in pieces and >have built many pieces of test equipment to monitor / test the operation of >K-Jet components and K-Jet systems. We used to have a mock up test bed where >we could set up the air / fuel regulator, injectors and fuel pump etc. The >test fluid was white spirit. Clair would know well why white spirit was used >in place of petrol. Every function of operation could be tested. The worst >enemy of K-Jet is bad fuel and water and you want to advise Clair to install >such a system to her boat? No. I wasn't advising Claire, nor anybody to install K-Jet. >Bernd, you have acquainted the LUCAS fuel system to the Prince of Darkness. Ken, cut down on the coffee. You don't need to pretend why I made that comment. Nor should you pretend to ignore the SMILEY. >> LUCAS - "the prince of darkness" :-) I have no idea why my comments make you feel that your comments were worth any more or less. I was contributing my (albeit limited) experience on the subject matter - LUCAS *automotive electrics* included. >Ray Hall's engines have either won or been runner up in the World >Championships in his class of boat, for as long as I can remember. They won >and were runners ups at the last World Championships. Ray Hall is a DOER not >a talker. Are you a reader (of Probst) and just a talker or are you a doer? What precisely is wrong with reading? What is wrong with talking and discussing? Do I not "qualify" to be a member of this mailing list if I haven't been hard-chroming bits of fuel distributors, running huge dynamometers, etc, etc on a "professional" basis for 20+ years? The purpose of the mailing list as I see it is to share ideas. It is to learn from what others have to say, and occasionally contributing with what you have to see - be it wrong or otherwise. We are all wrong at one time or another; it's best to find that out as soon as possible. Chill out; Kevin. You might think I don't know what I'm talking about because you don't agree with what I say. That doesn't become my problem until you go over the top in a forum such as this. >I want to hear what YOU have done, not what Probst has done. Click here >Bernd www.turbofast.com.au/img/eng1.jpg and check out one of Ray's 1,500 HP That's just a picture. Could be a digital rendering as far as I'm concerned. Tells me nothing. Other than that you have the alternator way down on the thing so it won't last if there's much water about ==> LUCAS - Prince of darkness all over again. :-) As for what I've done; I would rather not start. You want to be a clever chap; go and find out. A small proportion has been published. Most is entirely irrelevant to this list because EFI is my hobby. >I have gotten our gear into almost every serious race engine shop in >Australia, including Holden Racing Team and General Motors Holdens. We are >already measuring the type of physical phenomena that you are TALKING about >measuring. We have already made the measurements and comparisons that you >read about. So? You do that for a living. You are obliged to be on the bleeding edge. There are other phenomena which I will not discuss here, which you most likely won't be measuring. If you want me to discuss them, email me privately and I'll arrange for NDA, etc, as well as my standard consulting fees. >I would have thought a Corvair engine, a LUCAS fuel distributor and a ripper >set of Triumph throttle bodies would have been a pretty good place to start >with Clair's conversion ? Did I deny that? >Please provide us all with the logic you used to make your assumption >(scientific evaluation), which places LUCAS on the Dark Side? It really looks like you haven't been in the industry for 20 years. What does "the Dark Side" have to do with it? >I am busting to hear your reasoning on that one. >The people at Kinsler made a statement, it is in their bible. I have no idea who those people are. >One thing I ought to add in relation to air flow through K-Jets air valve >and air box. Reminds me of the air box and air cleaner on my 20 year old >Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine. Both have the most diabolically bad >air flow dynamics, known to man. Is bad air flow good, when applied to >performance related engine development? What air valve? Are you referring to the metering plate? Are you comparing a production engine with a run-of-the-mill road car engine? Where are the other designs for a _purely-mechanical_ fuel injection system? >I'll slip this one in as there has been a lot on turbos, measuring turbine >speeds as one of the physical pheno for the ECU to crunch. Hmm? I hear talk >of tuned runner lengths (which is great, all about better cylinder fill and >wave motion). What differential pressure (induction wave) is about the best >we can achieve in a highly tuned normally aspirated racing engine, sitting >on its maximum torque RPM? So now then, lets start induction boosting. At >what boost pressure does this wave action become less significant / >insignificant when running the same engine? You talk too fast. What's your point? The air moving into the cylinder has inertia. That inertia depends on the flow velocity and the mass of the air. When you close the valve, you get a pressure "pulse" travelling away from the valve. The peak of the pulse depends on the inertia of the gas and the rate at which the valve closes. If you time the reflection of that wave, or that of another so that the valve is just opening as the pressure peak arrives, then you'll get optimal filling. The over-pressure that's been recorded in practical engines is about 40kPa, achievable over a fairly narrow range for a short time, but it results in better cylinder filling and flushing of exhaust gases. Volumetric efficiencies in excess of 100% are possible provided by the dynamic supercharge. The boost pressure you apply over the top of that will not nullify or cancel the dynamic supercharge. It will add (and amplify). You can work out for yourself when the 40kPa becomes "insignificant" noting that the inertia of the moving gas increases with increased boost. I could sit down and work it out; but that's too much like hard work. That's my educated guess. I could be wrong, and as I haven't seen the colour of your money, you shouldn't take it as professional advice. EFI is not my business. It's my hobby. >Regards, >Kevin. Or is it Ken Thompson? I'm confused. >> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 100 16:09:02 +0800 (WST) >> From: Bernd Felsche >> Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #104 / CFI >> >> >From: Kevin Jaeger kjaeger@xxx.au >> >> >I was with you Re your comments on "stoic", but K-Jet is a diabolically >ugly >> >mouse trap. It does not like the slightest contamination when in a >Mercedes >> >Benz car and therefore would hate your boat. Tuning will not be very >easy. >> K-Jet is beautifully-simple. It's the electronic addons and >> cold-start junk that's the bug-bear. >> >I guess one can get away with a lot on land (in a car), where the ecu >lives >> >> K-Jet has no ECU until you go for KE-Jet. >> >> The purely mechanical K-Jet isn't all that difficult to set up if >> you have the equipment and know-how. Probst's book describes the >> system well. >> >in the kick panel, away from corrosion. The same exposed GM ecu in a boat >> >would not live long at all. A friend who I have heard mentioned here on a >> >number of occasions, builds 1,500 HP boats, I refer to Ray Hall >> >www.turbofast.com.au Now in this situation, money is no object so the ecu >> >does not get wet and it stays cool and if the boat crashes and sinks, >they >> >build another one. >> The reservation I have about K-Jet on a boat is the zinc castings. >> >I think there is still a place for carbies in this world and you >situation >> >is a likely candidate. >> Nothing wrong with a good TDI on the water. :-) >> >In Australia the wreckers do no want Triumphs fitted with LUCAS systems, >> >you'd have to pay the wrecker to take the car. Rigging up a LUCAS system >> >would be much easier than K-Jet and is certainly much more compact. I >> LUCAS - "the prince of darkness" :-) >> >wouldn't know a Corvair if I fell over one, but I think that the Triumph >> >butterfly sets would be easy to adapt, than Bosch's "fuel / air" valve >> >system. - -- Real Name: Bernd Felsche Email: nospam.bernie@xxx.au http://www.perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie - Private HP - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #107 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".