DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, March 18 2000 Volume 05 : Number 110 In this issue: Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Peak and hold driver Re: Colortune 2000 Re: turbocharger repair - ripped off! Re: Sophisticated scan tool? Water injection. Re: Water injection. Re: Water injection. Is the US patent office on LCD or WOT ? Re: Water injection. Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: Optimax/PULP - twin tyres Re: Water injection. Re: Water injection. Digital Camera for a peek inside... See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:55:45 -0500 From: Joeo Subject: Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Roy wrote: > Instead of using a pump to pump the water at the > required pressure through the injector, why not > pressurise the water container using one of those 12 > volt tyre pumps that are a lot cheaper. This way the > electric pump is not going to fail due to water > ingress and you can control the bottlem pressure using > a simple pressure switch. What about a fuel pump from a Toyota/Honda/whatever that can supply 50psi of fuel pressure? joeo - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 19:12:02 -0600 From: MysticZ Subject: Peak and hold driver I just got the main component of the first part of my EFI system for the Ninja. An LM1949 peak and hold driver IC. It's a TINY (8 pin DIP) little thing! Now I have to get a basic stamp, figure out the code for it (once it's running right I'll use the data and figure out how to replace the stamp with a cheaper, more durable microcontroller. That's for later), and hook it up to the ignition system (distributorless with one coil per cylinder), make a throttle body with a TPS, and make it all work. The circuit for the LM1949 requires a whopping 7 components in addition to the IC itself (2 resistors, 2 caps, 1 transistor, 1 diode, and, I believe, a MOSFET). The input is a simple square wave. The hold current is externally set with the components and the peak current is internally set at 4x the hold current. The best part of the whole thing is that National Semiconductor was nice enough to send me a sample since I'm a student! I love National now :) Now I need to breadboard the thing, scavenge the injectors from a blown Isuzu engine I have sitting around, and figure out how I'm going to increase the fuel pressure (the bike is currently gravity fed). I'm thinking that a small tank sitting just above the throttle body, fed by gravity from the big tank, with an electric pump, will work nicely. - -- Steve 97 Chevy Camaro Z28, Mystic teal, A4, not stock 90 Kawasaki EX500A4, black, M6, not even CLOSE to stock! lt1_z28@xxx.net/~lt1_z28 Aluminum, steel, carbon fiber, titanium, and two cast iron balls. McMillan Motorsports- http://www.mmsbikes.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 20:34:36 -0400 From: Bill Shaw Subject: Re: Colortune 2000 Why not pipe it into the ECU with fiber optics, digitize it into RGB, and have the computer adjust it on the fly? ;-) Bill Carter Shore wrote: > > Re Colortune, > Too bad it's not robust enough for continuous use. You > can get a tiny color video cam pretty cheap. Attach > cam to colortune, hook cam output to a camcorder, > drive car, (possibly with audio commentary). > Playback and interpret the results later at your > leisure (with beer in hand). > > Carter - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:02:21 -0400 From: Bill Shaw Subject: Re: turbocharger repair - ripped off! That is the old analog Stewart Warner balancer. It was tough to trim all the op-amps in those units for calibration. I worked on the development of their new (7 or 8 years ago) digital balancer. Same old leaf spring sensors and some fancy math in an 80C196 giving a digital readout of the imbalance. Digitize the imbalance over time, fft it, calculate the difference in the phase angles between the two sensors, and you're almost there. Bill Dave Williams wrote: > > The common type uses two leaf springs. One end is fixed to the frame, > the other has a block with a pair of ball bearings. From that end a rod > runs down to a voice coil arrangement to measure displacement. The > shaft spins up to its critical speed, displacement is shown on an analog > meter, and the strobe is triggered, phase-shifted to show at maximum > displacement. I spent several days poring over the manuals for my big > Stewart Warner machine; I couldn't believe how simple it was, and kept > looking for the gotchas... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 21:53:21 -0500 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Sophisticated scan tool? No, it's not that. But thanks. I get a message from the server, "invalid address" or somesuch. No so important that I have to chase it down. Shannen Mike (Perth, Western Australia) wrote: > > At 12:39 AM 17/3/2000 -0500, you wrote: > >I can't seem to get there from here. > >Shannen > > Some browser links don't like commas in URLs, so copy paste it into > your browser URL entry, > > Works for me, > > Rgds > > Mike > > >mike mager wrote: > >> > >> Peter, > >> I accessed the page via your hyperlink, and found "An I-Opening Hack: $200 > >> PC", nothing about a scan tool; suggestions? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Mike > >> > >> >From: Peter Gargano > >> >Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.org > >> >To: diy_efi@xxx.org > >> >Subject: Sophisticated scan tool? > >> >Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 10:31:02 +1100 > >> > > >> >Heard about the US$99 scan tool? : > >> > > >> > http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,34977,00.html > >> > > >> >Well maybe? > >> > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > >> >quotes) > >> >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > >> > > >> > >> ______________________________________________________ > >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the > quotes) > >> in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 16:39:02 +1300 From: "Nicholas Parker" Subject: Water injection. Hi, I have personally filled one of those plastic Coke bottles to 100psi. It 99.9% full of water (to minimise injury to myself!) It's damn amazing how huch those things can take!! On a more sensible note, for my mist injection system I used a 250psi, 12v tyre compressor with a 'pressurised garden sprayer' bottle, you know, the ones that have a manual pump built in, but I removed the pump and put in a tyre valve, so it plugs right in to the compressor! Nick Parker,'87 MR2 Supercharged. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2000 22:42:27 -0600 From: Gabe Subject: Re: Water injection. Try putting about an inch of water and some crushed dry ice in the 2 or 3 liter coke bottles, cap it, and run...... I would say from previous experience that they will hold substantially more than 100psi. Gabe Nicholas Parker wrote: > Hi, I have personally filled one of those plastic Coke bottles to 100psi. > It 99.9% full of water (to minimise injury to myself!) It's damn amazing how > huch those things can take!! On a more sensible note, for my mist injection > system I used a 250psi, 12v tyre compressor with a 'pressurised garden > sprayer' bottle, you know, the ones that have a manual pump built in, but I > removed the pump and put in a tyre valve, so it plugs right in to the > compressor! > > Nick Parker,'87 MR2 Supercharged. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 100 14:19:14 +0800 (WST) From: Bernd Felsche Subject: Re: Water injection. Nicholas Parker writes: >Hi, I have personally filled one of those plastic Coke bottles to 100psi. >It 99.9% full of water (to minimise injury to myself!) It's damn amazing how >huch those things can take!! On a more sensible note, for my mist injection >system I used a 250psi, 12v tyre compressor with a 'pressurised garden >sprayer' bottle, you know, the ones that have a manual pump built in, but I >removed the pump and put in a tyre valve, so it plugs right in to the >compressor! Unfortunately, the capacity of such a small bottle won't last long under maximum-load conditions. I calculated a while back (1996 or thereabouts) that a 2-litre engine at 6000 rpm would use around 10 litres of water to get to 100% RH at inlet temperature on a hot, dry day. Much more if supercharged. And you want to inject even more water. Approx 300 kg of air in one hour, take-up about 30 g/kg of water/air (dependent on ambient RH) --> 9 kg (i.e. litres - near enough) required. Lack of a compressor isn't such a big limitation; it's the duty cycle the thing has to operate under. I bought a cheap air-horn "compressor" to use as an airflow source with a venturi feed to spray water (as in a spray gun). Spray works fine - mists well with the correct jets. Would be OK in principle for use in a pre-filter misting chamber. Unfortunately, the unit isn't designed to run for very long (i.e. low duty cycle) - the internal vanes (of course I opened it up!) are made of some polymer composite which will probably wear out after a short time if not lubricated. The whole unit gets quite warm after about a minute or two. It's also quite noisy - draws 8 amps. So at this time, I'm "stuck" trying to find the right technology. Does anybody have specifications for airflow from an auxiliary air pump used for catalytic convertors? I reckon I could swipe one from a New Beetle without it being noticed. :-) Q Why would you want to do this? A To drop the octane number requirement as much as 8 points. 10 litres capacity is probably sufficient for road car use - you only get away with 6000 rpm for an hour if you're cruising on the Autobahn or similar. The non-evaporated condensate can be collected, filtered and recycled - so you don't have to meter the amount of mist you generate. Two other benefits for road cars; on hot days, the evaporation cools the charge. On cold days, you can pre-heat the water and use the warm mist to help pre-heat the charge air for better fuel vapourization. - -- Real Name: Bernd Felsche Email: nospam.bernie@xxx.au http://www.perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie - Private HP - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 15:15:09 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Is the US patent office on LCD or WOT ? Its the last line in this abstract that gets you wonder if the patent office ever heard of maxwell's equations... A method to transmit and receive electromagnetic waves which comprises generating opposing magnetic fields having a plane of maximum force running perpendicular to a longitudinal axis of the magnetic field; generating a heat source along an axis parallel to the longitudinal axis of the magnetic field; generating an accelerator parallel to and in close proximity to the heat source, thereby creating an input and output port; and generating a communications signal into the input and output port, thereby sending the signal at a speed faster than light. http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US06025810__ Rgds :) Mike PS: Yes I know its off topic, but since I got a laugh this w/end, thought I'd share it... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:11:59 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: Water injection. At 02:19 PM 18/3/2000 +0800, Bernd Felsche wrote: >So at this time, I'm "stuck" trying to find the right technology. Hey Bernd, How about the $10 pumps from Dick Smith - I'm using one at moment to pressurise my cooling system and purge air bubbles from the head (and yes there are two bleeds for this purpose - I've connected to a solenoid), it easily reaches 15psi and if hold off the water overflow line, reaches about 18psi at 11.8v These are centrifugal and will do 15psi easily - though they are very temperamental if there's the slightest amount of air in the line. The impeller is also a little temperamental if there's any dirt, it causes the impeller to shaft to strip - but reglung it is easy. With a good filter, correct positioning etc, it should be possible to operate them reliably - thats what I will be trying shortly, Could run two in series with appropiate bleed-leak from the second back to tank (because the seal at center will be at the outlet pressure of the first one - but would generate 30psi overall without much trouble :) You can get them from the Dick SMith store in Osborne Park (Aluminium valley). >Two other benefits for road cars; on hot days, the evaporation cools >the charge. On cold days, you can pre-heat the water and use the >warm mist to help pre-heat the charge air for better fuel >vapourization. :) Not much chance of the latter over here even in winter, with 10psi boost temps are over 100deg C at comp outlet :( but then for n/a I'd probably go with a fuel rail heater if you were worried about vapourisation. Rgds :) mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:14:17 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. At 07:55 PM 17/3/2000 -0500, Joeo wrote: >> This way the >> electric pump is not going to fail due to water >> ingress and you can control the bottlem pressure using >> a simple pressure switch. > >What about a fuel pump from a Toyota/Honda/whatever that >can supply 50psi of fuel pressure? If you mean the regular high pressure electric fuel pumps, sorry they won't last long with water through them :( Do you mean another type ? Rgds :) Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 18:19:03 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: Optimax/PULP - twin tyres At 08:27 AM 15/3/2000 +0800, you wrote: >Don't think Orbital actually have a prototyping machine, there are only a few >places in Oz as far as I'm aware with those. As for prototyping I meant they >have a small foundry for casting engine parts once they have the moulds. Now that would be an interesting do it yourself project too - eee gads so many things to do - so little time - so little money - bummer !! :( >Osborne park has lots of good companies with motor knowledge, or just cars to >look at (Barbagello Motor Sports, drewl, drewl !!) Yeah they've had some nice ones, there's a s/h BMW850 across the road next tot he 4WD place and a GTR twin turbo (T28) R32 I think... Rgds :) mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 100 19:54:29 +0800 (WST) From: Bernd Felsche Subject: Re: Water injection. Mike writes: >At 02:19 PM 18/3/2000 +0800, Bernd Felsche wrote: >>So at this time, I'm "stuck" trying to find the right technology. >Hey Bernd, >How about the $10 pumps from Dick Smith - I'm using one at moment to >pressurise my cooling system and purge air bubbles from the head (and yes >there are two bleeds for this purpose - I've connected to a solenoid), >it easily reaches 15psi and if hold off the water overflow line, >reaches about 18psi at 11.8v My main concern with pumping water directly is with it running dry. That's why I like the idea of using an air jet - provides excellent atomisation at fairly low pressure - but you need the flow (or vice versa). What convinced me was watching a spray-painter: They don't pressurise the paint cans. Then there's the stuff that's in the water - loads of minerals. The 8 litres of water I put in my windshield washer reservoir is enough to discolour the inline filter I put in. (The filter is virtually useless - it didn't cost much to try - but I wouldn't recommend it.) Perth water: You can make a meal of it! >These are centrifugal and will do 15psi easily - though they are very >temperamental if there's the slightest amount of air in the line. They tend to be. >The impeller is also a little temperamental if there's any dirt, it causes >the impeller to shaft to strip - but reglung it is easy. What is easy? >With a good filter, correct positioning etc, it should be possible to >operate them reliably - thats what I will be trying shortly, It'll be interesting to see how well (and long) it works. Make sure your water tank has anti-surge baffles and put in a level sensor that triggers well above the suction line. Not sure how you'll go with sucking water through an inline filter - I suppose if you ensure a static head it should be OK. >Could run two in series with appropiate bleed-leak from the second back >to tank (because the seal at center will be at the outlet pressure of >the first one - but would generate 30psi overall without much trouble :) >You can get them from the Dick SMith store in Osborne Park (Aluminium valley). Pretty sure I can get one through the store down in Rockingham. >>Two other benefits for road cars; on hot days, the evaporation cools >>the charge. On cold days, you can pre-heat the water and use the >>warm mist to help pre-heat the charge air for better fuel >>vapourization. >:) Not much chance of the latter over here even in winter, with 10psi >boost temps are over 100deg C at comp outlet :( but then for n/a I'd >probably go with a fuel rail heater if you were worried about vapourisation. Well I do find that there is some preheating necessary for the fuel. After removing the intake silencer on my (and getting a very nice transient throttle response improvement as well as a drop in fuel consumption), I found that the engine would sometimes falter on sudden throttle openings during cold nights and mornings; when it's 5C or less. The reason for that was that the pre-heat flapper used to close against the outlet of the intake silencer - which was no longer present. So the engine got a healthy dose of very cold air. The pre-heat flapper is thermostatically-controlled, with vacuum servo to move the pre-heat as required. The flap is supposed to be fully closed at 25C, Fully open below 20C. That's also to prevent icing of the throttle valve, btw. My fix was to put in a new flap across the opening left by the removal of the silencer, and link it back to the pre-heat flap so that it would shut off cold air when preheat was required. For the price of one wire coathanger and the base of an icecream tub, I fixed the problem. It's worked for several years now. The fuel rail is btw close to the head on my car - it holds in the injectors, so it gets quite warm. BTW: My Atmel-based ECU page has been updated http://perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie/tech/EFI/vapour/Resources.html added Timer/Counter and Interrupt resources and expanded the Pin Allocation. - -- Real Name: Bernd Felsche Email: nospam.bernie@xxx.au http://www.perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie - Private HP - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:37:26 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: Water injection. At 07:54 PM 18/3/2000 +0800, Bernd Felsche wrote: >Mike writes: > >My main concern with pumping water directly is with it running dry. I was going to put one of the pumps at the bottom so it always has fluid and also on a slight angle on the impeller exit side so any minor bubble from anywhere would tend to ride up out and up the pipe away from pump a simple washining machine level sense switch in series with pump... >That's why I like the idea of using an air jet - provides excellent >atomisation at fairly low pressure - but you need the flow (or vice >versa). What convinced me was watching a spray-painter: They don't >pressurise the paint cans. Interesting, there's a spray painter spares part dealer in Osb park, I'll drop by during the week and have a closer look. What I wish to do is flow water around and near the nozzle at low temp in readiness for a spray - that way I have consistency - fuel rail fashion, I'm not sure how it would work feeding fluid/air in at boosts of 15psi or so, perhaps a small booster water pump to assure minimum water pressure into the nozzle - with higher pressure feed from a PET bottle, 2L air reservoir, kept at a minimum 50psi or so by an air pump. Any thing I do ont his I want to achieve consistency in temp and flow. >Then there's the stuff that's in the water - loads of minerals. The >8 litres of water I put in my windshield washer reservoir is enough >to discolour the inline filter I put in. (The filter is virtually >useless - it didn't cost much to try - but I wouldn't recommend it.) Yeah true, making your own distilled water though is dead easy, now that we have summer finishing, rain water makes a good start for the still ;) >Perth water: You can make a meal of it! Not as bad as Adelaide, when I was over there, boiling in a saucepan produced a vile froth on top - Yuck - I hear melbourne's water is starting to go the same way - I think Perth (on average) has less dissolved minerals then most other capitals (cept hobart/bris perhaps), I think its actually close to WHO limits though ! >>These are centrifugal and will do 15psi easily - though they are very >>temperamental if there's the slightest amount of air in the line. > >They tend to be. Yeah the funny thing is its hysteresis traps it, ie. With minor positioning change it can be reduced otherwise its a bad trap. >>The impeller is also a little temperamental if there's any dirt, it causes >>the impeller to shaft to strip - but reglung it is easy. > >What is easy? 3 screws undo the impeller cover, clean up impeller centre with scalpel, dab a little araldite to set o/night, screw back. These things are made with nylon keyway in the nylon impeller and pressfit onto offset shaft, dead cheap but prone to strip if the impeller pulls in any dirt. I'd got a couple (one spare) and took the first failed one back on the 90 day warranty - and accepted, the second one however looks too dirty and used so they'd probably object if it failed now... I also use one for the laundry - waste water to outside toilet cistern, thats the one that failed due to lint and sand etc, But I've glued it and its ok now. >>With a good filter, correct positioning etc, it should be possible to >>operate them reliably - thats what I will be trying shortly, > >It'll be interesting to see how well (and long) it works. The one I've used for the cooling system pressuriser hasn't failed as yet, and thats been there around six weeks - before that I had a "Whale", the seals on that were terrible. I cycle the pump about twice a day to 15psi and toggle a solenoid to purge air from the head, here's a pic:- http://www.wantree.com.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/Purge_Gauge_Switches.jpg > Make sure >your water tank has anti-surge baffles and put in a level sensor >that triggers well above the suction line. Not sure how you'll go >with sucking water through an inline filter - I suppose if you >ensure a static head it should be OK. Yep, have a couple of those Hoover sensors - work fine, but I won't be sucking water - the bottom of the botle has a feed to pump and filler from top so it will always have water... >Pretty sure I can get one through the store down in Rockingham. Ah right, I used to live down there, 14 Cygnus St, next to underpass about 1972, there's now some nice new restaurants at the beach where the old pier is - great mussles :) Pity the old loco is gone from the park though - my kids would have loved that - the beach is still clean though :) >Well I do find that there is some preheating necessary for the fuel. >After removing the intake silencer on my (and getting a very nice >transient throttle response improvement as well as a drop in fuel >consumption), I found that the engine would sometimes falter on >sudden throttle openings during cold nights and mornings; when it's >5C or less. > >The reason for that was that the pre-heat flapper used to close >against the outlet of the intake silencer - which was no longer >present. So the engine got a healthy dose of very cold air. > >The pre-heat flapper is thermostatically-controlled, with vacuum >servo to move the pre-heat as required. The flap is supposed to be >fully closed at 25C, Fully open below 20C. That's also to prevent >icing of the throttle valve, btw. > >My fix was to put in a new flap across the opening left by the >removal of the silencer, and link it back to the pre-heat flap so >that it would shut off cold air when preheat was required. >For the price of one wire coathanger and the base of an icecream >tub, I fixed the problem. It's worked for several years now. > >The fuel rail is btw close to the head on my car - it holds in the >injectors, so it gets quite warm. hehe = these VW's , my stepfather had a beetle back in 75, he was endlessly redoing/cleaning the carbs - don't know why, he had that whistling exhaust drove my mum crazy... Rgds :) mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 100 20:39:41 +0800 (WST) From: Bernd Felsche Subject: Digital Camera for a peek inside... Never mind the fancy colortune plugs... you can watch it on TV! http://www.sae.org/automag/topprod/1298p47.htm My guess is that it'll cost more than $10. - -- Real Name: Bernd Felsche Email: nospam.bernie@xxx.au http://www.perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie - Private HP - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #110 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".