DIY_EFI Digest Sunday, March 19 2000 Volume 05 : Number 111 In this issue: Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: Colortune 2000 RE: Atmel 8535 for engine management - Genesis Re: Colortune 2000 Re: Programming Basics 61 Corvette with 91 TPI and 6 speed Transmission Re: Atmel 8535 for engine management - Genesis Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: Atmel 8535 for engine management - Genesis Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Microcontrollers Re: Microcontrollers Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Re: Microcontrollers See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 07:36:14 -0700 From: bearbvd@xxx.net (Greg Hermann) Subject: Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. >At 07:55 PM 17/3/2000 -0500, Joeo wrote: >>> This way the >>> electric pump is not going to fail due to water >>> ingress and you can control the bottlem pressure using >>> a simple pressure switch. >> >>What about a fuel pump from a Toyota/Honda/whatever that >>can supply 50psi of fuel pressure? > >If you mean the regular high pressure electric fuel pumps, sorry they won't >last long with water through them :( > >Do you mean another type ? > >Rgds > >:) Mike Enough already. Try a gear type, mechanically driven fuel pump from DSR (Darryl Saucier Racing) in Memphis, Tenn. This is the type of pump used for fuel on alky burning oval track racers. Plenty of volume, plenty of pressure possible. With the DSR pump, the internals are all polymer coated! :-) Use a centrifugal (bilge pump or whatever for a primary pump to keep it primed, put a filter between the primary pump and the gear pump. Greg > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 10:33:11 -0800 (PST) From: Carter Shore Subject: Re: Colortune 2000 Yes! Do spectral analysis on the fly, get combustion temps from IR, plus sense misfires, both hard and soft. Don't need colortune, optical fiber is what 0.010" dia, easy to route a quartz fiber directly into each comb chamber. But can I retro-fit this to my Turbo Isetta? :) Carter > From: Bill Shaw > Subject: Re: Colortune 2000 > > Why not pipe it into the ECU with fiber optics, > digitize it into RGB, and have > the > computer adjust it on the fly? ;-) > > Bill > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:32:20 +0800 From: Adrian Broughton Subject: RE: Atmel 8535 for engine management - Genesis Hi Bernd, > I've started documenting the design ideas for an AVR-based ECU to > "replace" a Volkswagen Digifant unit. Tha aim is a unit which is not > only a plugin replacement, but also one which is expandable and can > take advantage of better sensor technology. I just read this post and was amazed, as I am using the same AVR 8535 unit for a very similar data-logging/FCD/AFC/etc project I'm making for my GT-Four. As you can see, I also live in Perth. You may remember I sent you a private email a couple of weeks ago introducing myself. >From the looks of it, my project isn't quite as extensive as yours (I'm not looking at replacing the ECU, just logging sensor data and providing some extra functions like controlling water injection, extra injectors, etc), but there are many similarities. I would be most interested in sharing some ideas with you and maybe meeting up in person at some stage (and possibly with Mike too). I work as a software developer and so the software side of things is my real strength - and the hardware side is NOT. I will be writing data-logging software for PC, PalmPilot and probably WinCE OS's. There are a few other people helping out with my project, and we're hoping to generate things like estimated real-time torque/hp curves. Info on my project can be found at http://web.one.net.au/~gtfour/redbox/ Cheers, Adrian ___________________________________ Adrian Broughton 1990 GT-Four Turbo 4WD Celica, 1974 VW Kombi, 1967 Holden HR Fremantle, Western Australia gtfour@xxx.au/~gtfour/ ___________________________________ - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 11:02:40 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Cripps Subject: Re: Colortune 2000 2 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 13:32:19 -0600 From: "Dan Plaskett" Subject: Re: Programming Basics 61 Corvette with 91 TPI and 6 speed Transmission It was indeed Motorola S format. I obtained a translator to go from the Motorola format to binary and back since this older Data I/O did not support binary. I am now able to move back and forth and the sumcheck remains constant so I think I've got a good bin file. I'll post it to incoming. AXCN.bin for a stock 1991 Corvette L-98 with 6 speed manual transmission. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" To: Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2000 3:39 AM Subject: Re: Programming Basics 61 Corvette with 91 TPI and 6 speed Transmission > If its in a motorola format - it might be something like intel/hex or > similar - in that case its ascii and as the full 32K wouldn't be used > then 88K in ascii with all the padding could equate to whatever you > downloaded... > > Can you use a suitable editor and see if its an ascii file, ie take > a copy and put it into wordpad or the like - I'm not conversant with > the motorola format but it could be 'S' records - anychance you can > paste a few lines to the group ? > > Rgds > > Mike > > > > At 12:33 PM 17/3/2000 -0600, you wrote: > >Well I have a new chip for my 61 Corvette TPI project. 91 L98 Corvette with > >6 speed transmission. I have the Data I/O chip burner communicating with > >the computer via promlink version 3.4 and I have been able to read the chip > >into RAM. I created a file called AXCN.bin and got a successful operation > >and a sumcheck that matched the chip when read and verified. I am confused > >however and believe I may have done something wrong. The file size is 88K. > >I thought that the size would be limited to 32K which is the size (I thought > >of the eprom). The I/O format selected in promlink is Motorola Exormax > >(this came up by itself). I tried to change that to binary but got an error > >message that I had selected an invalid format. There are 43 different I/O > >formats available but only a couple don't result in error messages. What > >about the file size? Does this seem right? When I'm sure this is OK I'll > >post to the incoming site but I certainly don't want to post something that > >isn't correct. Any ideas from you pros is certainly appreciated. > > > >Dan Plaskett > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - - > >To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > >in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 100 10:33:25 +0800 (WST) From: Bernd Felsche Subject: Re: Atmel 8535 for engine management - Genesis Adrian Broughton writes: >Hi Bernd, >> I've started documenting the design ideas for an AVR-based ECU to >> "replace" a Volkswagen Digifant unit. Tha aim is a unit which is not >> only a plugin replacement, but also one which is expandable and can >> take advantage of better sensor technology. >I just read this post and was amazed, as I am using the same AVR 8535 unit >for a very similar data-logging/FCD/AFC/etc project I'm making for my >GT-Four. As you can see, I also live in Perth. You may remember I sent >you a private email a couple of weeks ago introducing myself. Sure do. >From the looks of it, my project isn't quite as extensive as yours (I'm not >looking at replacing the ECU, just logging sensor data and providing some >extra functions like controlling water injection, extra injectors, etc), >but there are many similarities. I first intended to just design a data-logging unit to interpose at the Digifant connector; but the hardware and a substantial part of the software turns out to be identical for snooping and management. The initial signal conditioning changes; the most significant hardware change as Digifant drives the sensors - which are mostly resistive, except for the pair of throttle position switches, Hall sensor and the O2 sensor. The hardware change from snooping to management would require adding in suitable "drivers" for the sensors and (of course) the outputs to coil and injectors. The additional design and hardware overhead in separating out those functions will help in debugging the unit. It also makes it simpler to conceive - I like things as simple as possible. :-) When I've sketched up the hardware block diagrams on a computer, I'll put them on my web site. My main concern at this stage is being able to fit all the software into the relatively-small flash memory on the device. >I would be most interested in sharing some ideas with you and maybe meeting >up in person at some stage (and possibly with Mike too). I have no problem with that as long as it's no sooner than May. Prior to that, I would like to establish my confidence in building a uC-based device from scratch by implementing something really simple; an interior light control for a car with door-ajar and lights-on warnings. Goodies such as having the interior light come on when you turn off the ignition and have the lights on, dimming to off, interface to central locking, etc. will be thrown in, program space permitting... An 8535 would be an overkill. An ATtiny12 has (up to) 6 I/O digital lines and on-chip oscilator in an 8-pin DIP. >I work as a software developer and so the software side of things is my >real strength - and the hardware side is NOT. I will be writing >data-logging software for PC, PalmPilot and probably WinCE OS's. There are >a few other people helping out with my project, and we're hoping to >generate things like estimated real-time torque/hp curves. Well, I have plenty of software experience (since 1977), mechanical design, etc, but the hole I still need to fill is the detailed design of the uC. Although I've tinkered with electronics for a couple of decades, it's been analogue, discrete technology. My ECU design incorporates a data bus onto which the main uC "broadcasts" data frames of engine operations and various control parameters. A "head unit" can be connected to this bus and placed in the cockpit to display real-time information. The head unit can also collect its own data from other sources (e.g. vehicle "speed" sensor, GPS, etc) and combine them to give performance information. A WOT-run in each gear through the rev range would be sufficient (in terms of collected data) to program optimum shift points for example. A shift light display is simple enough to incorporate. More details of that on my web page when I get around to putting them there! >Info on my project can be found at http://web.one.net.au/~gtfour/redbox/ Nice pages. - -- Real Name: Bernd Felsche Email: nospam.bernie@xxx.au http://www.perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie - Private HP - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 22:12:00 -0500 From: Joeo Subject: Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" wrote: > > At 07:55 PM 17/3/2000 -0500, Joeo wrote: > >> This way the > >> electric pump is not going to fail due to water > >> ingress and you can control the bottlem pressure using > >> a simple pressure switch. > > > >What about a fuel pump from a Toyota/Honda/whatever that > >can supply 50psi of fuel pressure? > > If you mean the regular high pressure electric fuel pumps, sorry they won't > last long with water through them :( Bummer. I think some people have used fuel pumps however. Do they corrode or what? Thanks! joeo - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 14:08:21 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. At 10:12 PM 18/3/2000 -0500, you wrote: >> If you mean the regular high pressure electric fuel pumps, sorry they won't >> last long with water through them :( > >Bummer. I think some people have used fuel pumps however. Do they >corrode or what? Yeah - thats it - there's aluminium, copper brushes, maybe some steel bearings etc - All that in a conductive fluid like water with voltage present is asking for trouble. Hence one should also watch out for adding too much acetone into fuel or alcohol for that matter, both of these will also cause corrosion. Incidentally, acetone is used as a water remover and if ever used on an EFI engine then don't leave it in the tanke too long, it absorbs that little pool of water that condenses out and stays in the bottom of the tank, unless absorbed. Though I think these days the 'water remover' might use something else to reduce chance of pump corrosion... Rgds ~`:o) Mike Massen Trading as "Network Power Systems" and "Network Computers" Perth, Western Australia Ph +61 8 9444 8961 Fx +618 9264 8229 (fax -> email) Products/Personal/Client web area at http://www.wantree.com.au/~erazmus (Current pics - trip to Malaysia to install equipment in jungle power site) Some say there is no magic but, all things begin with thought then it becomes academic, then some poor slob works out a practical way to implement all that theory, this is called Engineering - for most people another form of magic. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 14:22:14 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: Atmel 8535 for engine management - Genesis At 10:33 AM 19/3/2000 +0800, Bernd Felsche wrote: >Adrian Broughton writes: > >I have no problem with that as long as it's no sooner than May. Yeah - I'll be in that :) >An 8535 would be an overkill. An ATtiny12 has (up to) 6 I/O digital >lines and on-chip oscilator in an 8-pin DIP. Yeah thats a nice chip, there's also the PIC ones and an ACE which is about the size of a matchhead, someone made a web server in one ! Trouble is it doesn't have SPI :( Would be great if it had an uncommitted shift register in the structure... There's also the at89c2051 which is a bit bigger but has serial and will run to about 30MHz - someone has reliably run these at 50MHz ! Not bad for a $5 cpu In regards to software - mmmm What would be real useful and interesting is being able to do the low end comms stuff for W95/98 with higher end user interface etc ie A windows based comm driver which is configurable for almost anyone's (published) EFI controller. ie Look up table of comms requirements for a particular EFI controller, also look up a windows bitmap resource for the menus, mimic display etc etc Actually could be worthwhile as a commercial product, (Want me to get a government grant for that - hint ;-) I'm probably a bit like Bernd in that I have lots of low end micro experience, some high level stuff but have little experience (or interest for that matter) with the vagaries (and there are lots) of Windows API calls such as:- a. Virtual device drivers b. Handling Menu variations c. Handling Resource/bitmap variations d. Scheduling these into a pre-emptive o/s (Stuff I did with win 3.11 was ok but want to move up) Any comments on this 'higher end' display/user access side ? Rgds Mike Massen Ancient Sufi saying: "Should your God save you from adversity, choose another God" Pictures of site installation at Mendulong near Sipitang, Sabah (Malaysia) for container based RAPS... http://www.wantree.com.au/~erazmus Vehicle modifications on GMH Turbo, twin tyres, possible 175Kw at wheels Preliminary pictures at http://www.wantree.com.au/~erazmus/Twin_tyre_vehicle/ My editorial on twin-tyre opinion and good reference about tyres:- http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/2195/ttyreopinion.html - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:02:41 -0500 From: Shannen Durphey Subject: Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. Hi, Mike. Me brain cells finally started working. Over here, Chevrolet sold a "dual fuel" pfi car, which could run on Gas, or Alky, or both. Is an alchohol compatible pump likely to work for you? Water remover, "Drygas", is often isopropyl alchohol. Shannen Mike (Perth, Western Australia) wrote: > > At 10:12 PM 18/3/2000 -0500, you wrote: > > >> If you mean the regular high pressure electric fuel pumps, sorry they won't > >> last long with water through them :( > > > >Bummer. I think some people have used fuel pumps however. Do they > >corrode or what? > > Yeah - thats it - there's aluminium, copper brushes, maybe some steel > bearings etc - All that in a conductive fluid like water with voltage > present is asking for trouble. Hence one should also watch out for > adding too much acetone into fuel or alcohol for that matter, both > of these will also cause corrosion. > > Incidentally, acetone is used as a water remover and if ever used on an EFI > engine then don't leave it in the tanke too long, it absorbs that little > pool of water that condenses out and stays in the bottom of the tank, > unless absorbed. Though I think these days the 'water remover' might use > something else to reduce chance of pump corrosion... > > Rgds ~`:o) > > Mike Massen Trading as "Network Power Systems" and "Network Computers" > Perth, Western Australia Ph +61 8 9444 8961 Fx +618 9264 8229 (fax -> email) > Products/Personal/Client web area at http://www.wantree.com.au/~erazmus > (Current pics - trip to Malaysia to install equipment in jungle power site) > > Some say there is no magic but, all things begin with thought then it becomes > academic, then some poor slob works out a practical way to implement all that > theory, this is called Engineering - for most people another form of magic. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 02:15:53 -0600 From: MysticZ Subject: Microcontrollers Does anyone know of a decent, easy to deal with microcontroller that will run C? I'm new at all this itty bitty computer stuff, and I could just use a basic stamp, but I've heard that it isn't as fast as "some C based controller" (exact phrase). Anyone have a clue what that could be? - -- Steve 97 Chevy Camaro Z28, Mystic teal, A4, not stock 90 Kawasaki EX500A4, black, M6, not even CLOSE to stock! lt1_z28@xxx.net/~lt1_z28 Aluminum, steel, carbon fiber, titanium, and two cast iron balls. McMillan Motorsports- http://www.mmsbikes.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 19:22:36 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: Microcontrollers At 02:15 AM 19/3/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Does anyone know of a decent, easy to deal with microcontroller that >will run C? I'm new at all this itty bitty computer stuff, and I could >just use a basic stamp, but I've heard that it isn't as fast as "some C >based controller" (exact phrase). Anyone have a clue what that could be? There's a few 'C' compilers for the 8051 series ( by philips, atmel) and the AVR series by atmel. I don't have the links handy other then this one as a starter... http://www.grantronics.com.au If you are in Australia or new zealand, Les can be relied on for some great gear - like programmers and the like - the may have some links to compilers, oh just remembered - try imagecraft:- http://www.imagecraft.com They have some embedded stuff :) Good luck, (I don't like C, prefer pascal or assembler) Rgds ~`:o) Mike Massen Trading as "Network Power Systems" and "Network Computers" Perth, Western Australia Ph +61 8 9444 8961 Fx +618 9264 8229 (fax -> email) Products/Personal/Client web area at http://www.wantree.com.au/~erazmus (Current pics - trip to Malaysia to install equipment in jungle power site) Some say there is no magic but, all things begin with thought then it becomes academic, then some poor slob works out a practical way to implement all that theory, this is called Engineering - for most people another form of magic. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 19:27:47 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: Subject: Re: water into efi system before injectors. At 02:02 AM 19/3/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, Mike. Me brain cells finally started working. Over here, >Chevrolet sold a "dual fuel" pfi car, which could run on Gas, or Alky, >or both. Is an alchohol compatible pump likely to work for you? Very likely - I hadn't thought of asking anyone if there was a 12vdc alcohol pump in Perth - might get some jokes about intravenous ;-) mmm - Any suggestions on what alcohol compatible pumps cost ? >Water remover, "Drygas", is often isopropyl alchohol. Ah yes - same stuff used for 5" floppy drive head cleaners, wonder if I could use some to replace petrol if the octane is high enough ;-) - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 22:38:28 +1100 From: Peter Gargano Subject: Re: Microcontrollers MysticZ wrote: > > Does anyone know of a decent, easy to deal with microcontroller that > will run C? I'm new at all this itty bitty computer stuff, and I could > just use a basic stamp, but I've heard that it isn't as fast as "some C > based controller" (exact phrase). Anyone have a clue what that could be? It's not the technology that's the issue, but asking what the problem is. (exact phrase) C compilers are available for just about any microcontroller - there's even a C compiler for the same processor used in the Basic Stamp. As a starting point try http://www.dontronics.com/ for some ideas. I'm sure you'll be inundated with other suggestions - but see above paragraph. regards, Peter - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #111 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".