DIY_EFI Digest Friday, March 24 2000 Volume 05 : Number 120 In this issue: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #119 Re: O2 sensor question RE: O2 sensor question..attn Gar Re: O2 sensor question..attn Gar Re: O2 sensor question Re: O2 sensor question See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 13:16:23 +0800 From: dzorde@xxx.com Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #119 Mike, have a check in the archives. Around a year ago I looked into pricing on the Bosch LSM-11 sensors. From memory I think the best price I found was through Coventry's for something like $240-$260 in single qty, but if you can find my original post from back then you'll have the exact price. %-) ta ta dan dzorde@xxx.com Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:28:41 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: O2 sensor question >>This discussion allows me to add another comment/recommendation about >>how to plan for using these sensors. Ya know, they're all still pretty >>spendy, even with the Honda sensor available with a goodly discount over >>the net for slightly less than $100, that's still a pretty decent >>chunkOchange for "consumables". > >mmmm - I'd like to know where I could buy a sensor off the net, our local >parts dealers seem to add about 300% markup (on anything) and then another >100% if its anything technical or elctronic :( - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 21:50:04 -0800 From: garwillis@xxx.com (Garfield Willis) Subject: Re: O2 sensor question On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:28:41, "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" wrote: >Well its mostly an English slang for a friendly "Thanks", seems to have >been adopted generally in Oz, given our large intake of Poms (English >immigrants). Generally when you've lived here for a while one tends to >get casual about communications - not just on email, most ozzies don't >stand too much on ceremony or protocol (except when the queen visits;) >[The real sweaty stuff I leave for my GF ;-] OK, tah Geez, I'm having to deal with London rhyming slang and now this! To Londoners, us yanks are "septics"!? didyaknow? Picture that. :) But OK, yeah, a very informal "tanks" is the way I understand you to mean. Good. >Where does the platinum type Bosch O2 sensor come into this, is that the >Nernst type you mention ? PLATINUM? I dunno nuthin bout any platinum O2 sensor. Anyone? Most of the current technology is using varying forms of zirconium oxide, ZrO2. >mmm OK - interesting - please update me as soon as you can on your product, It's been an onNoff regular on DIY for the last year or two, but just stay tuned and you'll keep on it. >mmmm - I'd like to know where I could buy a sensor off the net, our local >parts dealers seem to add about 300% markup (on anything) and then another >100% if its anything technical or elctronic :( Yeah, this IS perhaps a problem for yous guys in said regions. I was referring to a place for those in the US, where they can buy via 800 number, any Honda part at decent discount. It's www.hparts.com and anyone knowing a better, please do give a shout. We may also have some small difficulty in exporting EGOR to those 'down undah'. But where there's a will...well, ya know. Because the sensors are stock Honda parts, we don't want to have to carry inventory with the obligatory mark-up, so we'll be recommending EGOR clients just go buy their sensor locally, or via www. We won't be selling them...makes no sense for us to play Honda distributor and "keystone". If you want your sensor "reference-gas calibrated", we'll be offering a service to do that for a small fee. But normally, just the regular free-air calibration feature already built into EGOR will be sufficient for most all uses. You plug your new sensor into EGOR, do the free-air calibration step, and you're ready to sniff gases. That simple. >Ok thats for that - interesting, I suppose it would be almost as good >and cheaper to go for two conventional sensors. One before and one >after the cat and do a bit of maths, You've got your research before you, I'm afraid. Whatever sensors you put in either place, if they're the "switch type", they'll not be much use for determining burnmix, whether pre or post-cat. And whenever you want to measure mixture, it will almost always be during open-loop ops on any conventional EFI ECU or at significant throt pos with carbs, so then the cat will be out of the picture anyway. Hence, pre-cat vrs. post-cat idn't gonna get you the info you seek either. Basically, it's down to this: if you want to measure AFR, you hafta have an instrument capable of said measurement, and generally where you want those measurements most, the cat is outta the picture anyway. Currently, you either pay the big $$$, or you wait a bit, and get an EGOR on the cheap. That's the whole raison d'etre for EGOR. Nuff said. Gar - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:39:51 -0800 From: Carl Summers Subject: RE: O2 sensor question..attn Gar Hi Gar, Got an ETA on the egor yet??? anxiously awaiting... - -Carl Summers - -----Original Message----- From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.org]On Behalf Of Garfield Willis Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 9:50 PM To: diy_efi@xxx.org Subject: Re: O2 sensor question On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 12:28:41, "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" wrote: >Well its mostly an English slang for a friendly "Thanks", seems to have >been adopted generally in Oz, given our large intake of Poms (English >immigrants). Generally when you've lived here for a while one tends to >get casual about communications - not just on email, most ozzies don't >stand too much on ceremony or protocol (except when the queen visits;) >[The real sweaty stuff I leave for my GF ;-] OK, tah Geez, I'm having to deal with London rhyming slang and now this! To Londoners, us yanks are "septics"!? didyaknow? Picture that. :) But OK, yeah, a very informal "tanks" is the way I understand you to mean. Good. >Where does the platinum type Bosch O2 sensor come into this, is that the >Nernst type you mention ? PLATINUM? I dunno nuthin bout any platinum O2 sensor. Anyone? Most of the current technology is using varying forms of zirconium oxide, ZrO2. >mmm OK - interesting - please update me as soon as you can on your product, It's been an onNoff regular on DIY for the last year or two, but just stay tuned and you'll keep on it. >mmmm - I'd like to know where I could buy a sensor off the net, our local >parts dealers seem to add about 300% markup (on anything) and then another >100% if its anything technical or elctronic :( Yeah, this IS perhaps a problem for yous guys in said regions. I was referring to a place for those in the US, where they can buy via 800 number, any Honda part at decent discount. It's www.hparts.com and anyone knowing a better, please do give a shout. We may also have some small difficulty in exporting EGOR to those 'down undah'. But where there's a will...well, ya know. Because the sensors are stock Honda parts, we don't want to have to carry inventory with the obligatory mark-up, so we'll be recommending EGOR clients just go buy their sensor locally, or via www. We won't be selling them...makes no sense for us to play Honda distributor and "keystone". If you want your sensor "reference-gas calibrated", we'll be offering a service to do that for a small fee. But normally, just the regular free-air calibration feature already built into EGOR will be sufficient for most all uses. You plug your new sensor into EGOR, do the free-air calibration step, and you're ready to sniff gases. That simple. >Ok thats for that - interesting, I suppose it would be almost as good >and cheaper to go for two conventional sensors. One before and one >after the cat and do a bit of maths, You've got your research before you, I'm afraid. Whatever sensors you put in either place, if they're the "switch type", they'll not be much use for determining burnmix, whether pre or post-cat. And whenever you want to measure mixture, it will almost always be during open-loop ops on any conventional EFI ECU or at significant throt pos with carbs, so then the cat will be out of the picture anyway. Hence, pre-cat vrs. post-cat idn't gonna get you the info you seek either. Basically, it's down to this: if you want to measure AFR, you hafta have an instrument capable of said measurement, and generally where you want those measurements most, the cat is outta the picture anyway. Currently, you either pay the big $$$, or you wait a bit, and get an EGOR on the cheap. That's the whole raison d'etre for EGOR. Nuff said. Gar - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:17:54 -0800 From: garwillis@xxx.com (Garfield Willis) Subject: Re: O2 sensor question..attn Gar On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 22:39:51 -0800, Carl Summers wrote: >Hi Gar, > Got an ETA on the egor yet??? anxiously awaiting... >-Carl Summers Hang in there, we've got one final hitch with sourcing a single bloody connector, and then we should be home free and begin pilot production on the meters. Once we have some inventory to ship against, we'll announce. The modules are already a done deal; it's just the meter that's causing the delay, as per usual. Real soonium now. Bout all I can tell ya, mate. Gar - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:24:43 PST From: "mike mager" Subject: Re: O2 sensor question Gar, EGO Exhaust Gas Oxygen, right? What does EGOR stand for? Sounds like a useful product. Thanks, Mike ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:43:18 -0600 From: "Dave & Irina Eicher" Subject: Re: O2 sensor question Interesting stuff Gar, appreciate the info. Do you have a feel for when the meter design will be ready for public consumption? thanks, dave - ----- Original Message ----- From: Garfield Willis To: Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 2:46 PM Subject: Re: O2 sensor question > On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 03:02:33, "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" > wrote: > > >At 11:07 AM 22/3/2000 -0800, garwillis@xxx.com (Garfield Willis) wrote: > > > >>For those unfamiliar, "EGOR-the-module" is an interface for a > >>current-pump-style NTK-Honda 5-wire wideband sensor, basically it's a > >>black-box with pins, around which you'll be able to build a > >>WOT/wideband-O2 engine manager; and "EGOR-the-meter" is a hand-held > >>precision AFR meter with large digital and bar-graph display (and an > >>analog out for logging, of course), useful for tuning/cal work. > > > >Are there any specs for the sensor ? > > > >I'd like to integrate the display into my own equipment, > > > >Tah > > Hey, one thing I gotta know...what's this "tah" interjection you often > use, mean in WestOz? Is it like a grin, or a "heh heh" or "hee hee" like > we do in the States? I've never seen it before and kinda appreciate the > general Aussie verbal style, so I had to ask. If it's difficult (or > embarrassing) to convey via public typing, don't sweat it. > > Anyway, on to your question. This has been explained before, but this > type of sensor (the Honda-NTK sensor is one of the so-called > "current-pump" types) REQUIRES a special sort of interface electrics to > go with it. It's not merely a passive sensor like the older "Nernst" or > switch type sensors, which just put out a voltage you read. There's a > little pump inside these new sensors that squirts oxygen ions into (or > out of) another measurement cell, in an attempt to balance out excess or > depletion of oxygen in the exhaust gas. This clever trick is what allows > these sensors to be so "linear" and good as O2 measurement devices, but > makes operating the sensor more complicated than the older type. > > EGOR *is* that special interface electrics. If you want to roll your own > display, you could use just an EGOR-module, and build your own > instrument around that, but when you see how snarky and inexpensive our > EGOR-meter is going to be, you'll probly just go for that instead. > > This discussion allows me to add another comment/recommendation about > how to plan for using these sensors. Ya know, they're all still pretty > spendy, even with the Honda sensor available with a goodly discount over > the net for slightly less than $100, that's still a pretty decent > chunkOchange for "consumables". I would think twice about planning on > having such a sensor left in the exhaust ALL the time, and part of your > normal everyday panel meters. Everybody knows that rich running, oil > burning, and lead mix all contribute to shorter lifetimes for these > sensors. Add to that the fact that any heated sensor has a VERY hot > ceramic bit in them that can be instantly fractured if clobbered by a > errant drop of water from a cold exhaust system. All it takes is > condensation in the wrong place, a (perhaps unbeknownst to you) poorly > chosen placement of the O2 bung, and all these things may put you in the > position of test engineer where the supplies of sensors is paid for out > of your own pocket. The auto mfgs. found out about those types of > mistakes and paid for them (usually, hopefully) during engineering > trials. You might want to avoid those costs if possible. > > Sure, you're gonna go for it if you're planning on a WOT/wideband ECU, > because you don't have any choice, and you need that WOT tight control > to get your track times down, or whatever. But if you're using it for > tuning and tweaking your open-loop fuel maps in your EFI controller from > time to time, I'd suggest you consider it a hand-held instrument that > you use via a tail-pipe probe, and you only expose the sensor to these > attendant dangers whenever you need to be performing those kinds of > measurements. On the front panel of the EGOR-meter right below the ON > switch, you're gonna see a litany of cautions (like a pilot's checklist, > if you will) to help you avoid damaging the sensor, just because the > bloody things still cost $100, and in most places that can still buy a > nice dinner for two. But of course, it's everyone's choice. I'm just > trying to point out some realities of the situation. Everything possible > has been done to keep the deployment of this cool measurement technology > as absolutely low-cost as possible. So the clients we're targeting we > just ASSUME will want to be very careful with their sensors and baby > them. But if your gameplan (e.g., WOT controller) or robust pocket > change allows it, sure go for a permanent wideband sensor in your > exhaust full-time, and use an EGOR-module to interface that sensor to > your own custom electrics. That is one of the uses it's intended for, > except we think mostly for both economy and appreciating the finer > things in life, if you're not building an engine manager, you'll > probably find our meter irresistible. :) But like I said before, both > the module and meter are going to be very affordable, so the choice will > be yours. > > Gar > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #120 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. 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