DIY_EFI Digest Saturday, March 25 2000 Volume 05 : Number 121 In this issue: Re: O2 sensor question Honda O2 sensor part number Re: Honda O2 sensor part number Re: Honda O2 sensor part number 8051 EFI Re: O2 sensor question - how it works Plenum sizing (a little off topic) Re: Plenum sizing (a little off topic) Re: Plenum sizing (a little off topic) Re: Plenum sizing (a little off topic) Re: O2 sensor question - how it works Re: O2 sensor question - how it works Re: O2 sensor question - how it works Ford crank sensor See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 06:34:06 -0800 From: garwillis@xxx.com (Garfield Willis) Subject: Re: O2 sensor question On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 23:24:43 PST, "mike mager" wrote: >EGO Exhaust Gas Oxygen, right? > >What does EGOR stand for? Err, how bout Ratio. Exhaust Gas Oxygen Ratio, yeah that's it. Heh. Actually, the name was picked because EGO measurement seemed too, well, 90s at the time. Since we started working on another project for ionization current measurement almost at the same time, which just seemed to fall out nicely dubbed as ION, we got used to calling the two EGOR & ION. So there you have it; the guy with the bulging eyes and hump (what hump?), and the elegant lady with beautiful magic eyes that can peer into combustion fire. Ion-eyes infact. Narf. It probly gets worse, so I won't go on any further with the cruel & unusual punishment. Ahem. Gar - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:00:04 -0600 From: "Jim Sloan" Subject: Honda O2 sensor part number > >>This discussion allows me to add another comment/recommendation about > >>how to plan for using these sensors. Ya know, they're all still pretty > >>spendy, even with the Honda sensor available with a goodly discount over > >>the net for slightly less than $100, that's still a pretty decent > >>chunkOchange for "consumables". I have 36531-P07-003 listed as the Honda O2 sensor part number. Can someone confirm this? TIA Jim Sloan leroy@xxx.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 01:43:43 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: Honda O2 sensor part number At 11:00 AM 24/3/2000 -0600, you wrote: >> >>This discussion allows me to add another comment/recommendation about >> >>how to plan for using these sensors. Ya know, they're all still pretty >> >>spendy, even with the Honda sensor available with a goodly discount over >> >>the net for slightly less than $100, that's still a pretty decent >> >>chunkOchange for "consumables". > >I have 36531-P07-003 listed as the Honda O2 sensor part number. Can someone >confirm this? mmm - WHich model/year is that off ? Tah, :) mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 09:28:56 -0800 From: garwillis@xxx.com (Garfield Willis) Subject: Re: Honda O2 sensor part number On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 11:00:04 -0600, "Jim Sloan" wrote: >> >>This discussion allows me to add another comment/recommendation about >> >>how to plan for using these sensors. Ya know, they're all still pretty >> >>spendy, even with the Honda sensor available with a goodly discount over >> >>the net for slightly less than $100, that's still a pretty decent >> >>chunkOchange for "consumables". > >I have 36531-P07-003 listed as the Honda O2 sensor part number. Can someone >confirm this? Consider yourself confirmed. Gar - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 20:11:57 +0000 From: Paul Corner Subject: 8051 EFI Hi I've been playing around with a few ideas for engine management for a couple of years or so now. Started out with the SSI 67F687 chip, alas no more, ending up with a 12MHz 8051 based design. After getting a batch of boards made, I hacked some machine code up and got my engine running after a fashion. Due to other commitments, the project was put on hold. Now with the summer months coming, I want to get this thing going again. With a couple of issues still left to resolve, I look foward to a healthy exchange of ideas. What state of play are others at ? Regards, Paul. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:46:02 -0600 From: "Brian Franchuk" Subject: Re: O2 sensor question - how it works For a good explanation of how the LAF oxygen sensor works see the following web page: http://www.tech2tech.net/training/laf.htm - --Brian F - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 23:42:25 -0500 From: Scott Knight Subject: Plenum sizing (a little off topic) I know this is a bit off topic, but I also know that someone here can help me figure out the correct plenum volume for my project engine. Is there a formula that relates to engine displacement and/or speed? Not that it matters, but the project is a 396" LT1, and the intake configuration makes it pretty easy to add on some volume without making it ugly. Figured I may as well get it right as long as I have the chance. Thanks. - -- Scott Knight mailto:scott@xxx.com http://www.scottknight.com/ IRC:SS396man '95 Black Impala SS '94 Ducati 900SS CR - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 23:50:08 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: Plenum sizing (a little off topic) Seems to be Plenum = CID, is getting common, and some are going higher then that (Plenum= 1.2*CID). The Accel or Lingenfelter (?), is about 383 according to a friend of mine. Grumpy > I know this is a bit off topic, but I also know that someone here can > help me figure out the correct plenum volume for my project engine. Is > there a formula that relates to engine displacement and/or speed? Not > that it matters, but the project is a 396" LT1, and the intake > configuration makes it pretty easy to add on some volume without making > it ugly. Figured I may as well get it right as long as I have the > chance. Thanks. > -- > Scott Knight mailto:scott@xxx.com > http://www.scottknight.com/ IRC:SS396man > '95 Black Impala SS > '94 Ducati 900SS CR > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 23:57:48 -0500 From: Scott Knight Subject: Re: Plenum sizing (a little off topic) Grumpy, > Seems to be Plenum = CID, is getting common, and some are going higher then > that (Plenum= 1.2*CID). > The Accel or Lingenfelter (?), is about 383 according to a friend of mine. Yikes, there is no way I am getting that kind of volume out of the stock intake if the SuperRam is only 383! I have yet to measure it, but I am guessing it is just over half that by the physical size of it. I was thinking that it would be easy to increase the stock intake 10-15%, but there is no way I can go 50% or more without making it ugly. Thanks for the formula. - -- Scott Knight mailto:scott@xxx.com http://www.scottknight.com/ IRC:SS396man '95 Black Impala SS '94 Ducati 900SS CR - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 00:30:01 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: Plenum sizing (a little off topic) Course there is the split manifold like the Viper has using two throttle bodies. Lot smaller packaging, and more along the lines of IR, but I'd imagine different cross sectional area (larger) then a common plenum one, but that is guessing on my part. How about 8 butterflies, and a true IR, with a common filter area?. Grumpy > Grumpy, > > > Seems to be Plenum = CID, is getting common, and some are going higher then > > that (Plenum= 1.2*CID). > > The Accel or Lingenfelter (?), is about 383 according to a friend of mine. > > Yikes, there is no way I am getting that kind of volume out of the stock > intake if the SuperRam is only 383! I have yet to measure it, but I am > guessing it is just over half that by the physical size of it. I was > thinking that it would be easy to increase the stock intake 10-15%, but > there is no way I can go 50% or more without making it ugly. > > Thanks for the formula. > -- > Scott Knight mailto:scott@xxx.com > http://www.scottknight.com/ IRC:SS396man > '95 Black Impala SS > '94 Ducati 900SS CR > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 01:16:03 -0800 From: garwillis@xxx.com (Garfield Willis) Subject: Re: O2 sensor question - how it works On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:46:02 -0600, "Brian Franchuk" wrote: >For a good explanation of how the LAF oxygen sensor works see >the following web page: > > http://www.tech2tech.net/training/laf.htm Oh my, well, that's a noble attempt, and lots of basic things mentioned are correct, but there's a bunch of stuff that's also NOT correct in this discourse. Suffice it to say, the secret salsa recipe is safe, from anyone who thinks this is actually the way the sensor works from an operational standpoint. He's got the basic physics of the thing right, but some of the operational things are completely off. The wire/terminal he refers to as a "reference" is infact a floating common for both the nernst and pump cells, and swings all over the place. Testing it for 2.7V to confirm correct function is pretty bogus. Secondly, no Honda-NTK sensor electrics controls the pump voltage, as he describes it. It cannot work that way, because the pump cell's impedance also moves all over the place even for any given AFR, sometimes making large excursions, as the pump cell finally achieves balance of O2 ion levels. The pump *current* mirrors the AFR, not the pump voltage; that can vary widely as the impedance of the pump itself changes. You learn this when you work with these things and watch their dynamics. He might not have seen this in steady-state, but to say it's a "reference" with some relatively constant value, misconstrues the workings of the sensor. Best to consult the SAE/NTK paper if you want to understand this better. Last thing I'm gonna mention, cuz it's potentially important for people who will use EGOR and go about buying their own sensor, is he says the calibration resistor value "is typically 4.3K ohms". This is potentially very misleading. Perhaps he's seen a few, and based his conclusion on this, but I've measured quite a few of them, and the cal resistor on these can vary from as low as 1.5K to as high as 10-15K. It's used as a factory-set "parallel trim value" in the ECU circuitry (which doesn't have the luxury of doing a free-air calibration like we proformance users can), and as such, varys widely for only slight (15% overall) changes in the sensor calibration itself. But there's nothing "typical" about the cal resistor value. It varys widely. Not to carp (much) at what would otherwise be a very useful beginning tutorial on these interesting devices. I just wish the guy had looked into the NTK/SAE tech docs so he could combine his practicals with some understanding. Auto mechanics and diagnosticians would do well to attempt understanding the underlying device from the source, rather than making up some terminal measurement rules on what to expect, based on their experience or factory training alone. Oh well, what's a mother to do. :) It's sorta close, but no cigar. A little help from the NTK SAE paper (#920234), and he could have avoided some of the more glaring mistakes. Gar - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 100 17:54:19 +0800 (WST) From: Bernd Felsche Subject: Re: O2 sensor question - how it works Garfield Willis writes: >On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:46:02 -0600, "Brian Franchuk" >wrote: >>For a good explanation of how the LAF oxygen sensor works see >>the following web page: >> http://www.tech2tech.net/training/laf.htm >Oh my, well, that's a noble attempt, and lots of basic things mentioned >are correct, but there's a bunch of stuff that's also NOT correct in >this discourse. Suffice it to say, the secret salsa recipe is safe, from >anyone who thinks this is actually the way the sensor works from an >operational standpoint. He's got the basic physics of the thing right, [snip interesting stuff] >factory-set "parallel trim value" in the ECU circuitry (which doesn't >have the luxury of doing a free-air calibration like we proformance >users can), and as such, varys widely for only slight (15% overall) >changes in the sensor calibration itself. But there's nothing "typical" >about the cal resistor value. It varys widely. Why can't the ECU do a "free-air" calibration on over-run? (Say after 50 revs of "purge".) Just curious. >do. :) It's sorta close, but no cigar. A little help from the NTK SAE >paper (#920234), and he could have avoided some of the more glaring >mistakes. I've found the later SAE papers to be less-generous with technical details. Could just be the non-random sample I've chosen. - -- Real Name: Bernd Felsche Email: nospam.bernie@xxx.au http://www.perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie - Private HP - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 05:49:30 -0500 From: "nacelp" Subject: Re: O2 sensor question - how it works Some wall setting does occur from reversion. PCV valve Charcoal canister. Are all contibuting to emissions even thou the fuel may be off during overrun. Grumpy > Garfield Willis writes: > > >On Fri, 24 Mar 2000 22:46:02 -0600, "Brian Franchuk" > >wrote: > > >>For a good explanation of how the LAF oxygen sensor works see > >>the following web page: > >> http://www.tech2tech.net/training/laf.htm > > >Oh my, well, that's a noble attempt, and lots of basic things mentioned > >are correct, but there's a bunch of stuff that's also NOT correct in > >this discourse. Suffice it to say, the secret salsa recipe is safe, from > >anyone who thinks this is actually the way the sensor works from an > >operational standpoint. He's got the basic physics of the thing right, > > [snip interesting stuff] > > >factory-set "parallel trim value" in the ECU circuitry (which doesn't > >have the luxury of doing a free-air calibration like we proformance > >users can), and as such, varys widely for only slight (15% overall) > >changes in the sensor calibration itself. But there's nothing "typical" > >about the cal resistor value. It varys widely. > > Why can't the ECU do a "free-air" calibration on over-run? > (Say after 50 revs of "purge".) Just curious. > > >do. :) It's sorta close, but no cigar. A little help from the NTK SAE > >paper (#920234), and he could have avoided some of the more glaring > >mistakes. > > I've found the later SAE papers to be less-generous with technical > details. Could just be the non-random sample I've chosen. > > -- > Real Name: Bernd Felsche > Email: nospam.bernie@xxx.au > http://www.perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie - Private HP > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- > To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) > in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 11:20:11 +0000 From: Mike Blakey Subject: Ford crank sensor I have modified the flywheel on a ztec (iron block, escort) by removing 5mm from the rear face. the upshot of this is that the crank sensor will no longer work. does anyone know of an alternative sensor that could be used. The ford sensor seams to be a VERY simple device of a coil (400ohms and a magnet) and most of the replacement inductive proximity detectors( which would be easy to fit ie 8mm threaded body) require supply and are signal conditioned, so im assuming they will not interface directly with the ecu. Any ideas? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #121 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".