DIY_EFI Digest Tuesday, March 28 2000 Volume 05 : Number 126 In this issue: Fw: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #122 Re: O2 sensor response times RE: aftermarket ecu etc... Re: Fuel pressure waring light Re: MAP sensing for IR systems Re: O2 sensor response times - cleaning ? Re: Fuel pressure waring light DIY-EFI's Funny 'reply all' Re: Measuring weight Re: Cheap protection... Re: DIY-EFI's Funny 'reply all' Re: Measuring weight Re: O2 sensor response times Re: Measuring weight Re: 8051 EFI See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the DIY_EFI or DIY_EFI-Digest mailing lists. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:57:20 -0600 From: "Gerald Pelnar" Subject: Fw: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #122 > From: Gerald Pelnar > To: diy_efi@xxx.org > Subject: Re: DIY_EFI Digest V5 #122 > Date: Monday, March 27, 2000 7:40 PM > > > Bernd Felche wrote: > > > To "cut my teeth" on uC practical applications, I'm > designing a > > uC-based system (fancy interior light delay with acoustic > warning) > > with 5 inputs from switches and "12V" from various > automotive > > circuits. The uC is running at 5V. > > > So far, a simple voltage divider with forward signal > diode, and > > filter capacitor feeding into a (hex) Schmitt trigger > (74C14) is how > > far I've got. But the voltage can vary from about 8V to > perhaps in > > excess of 16V, but I want those levels to be "true" > always. The > > Schmitt will sense 3.5 to 5V as true when running at 5V. > > Bernd-- > > To condition 12v inputs to your uP use a 74c901 or 74902 > instead > of the 74c14. the 901 and 902 are buffers for 15V in to 5V > out and > operate from the 5V supply. Oppsy. You might find the 4049 or 4050 buffers easier to find. Sorry, Gerald Pelnar wd0fyf@xxx.net McPherson, KS - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:27:41 -0800 From: garwillis@xxx.com (Garfield Willis) Subject: Re: O2 sensor response times On Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:35:30 -0800 (PST), Orin wrote: >Heywood pg 301: "Equilibrium is established in the exhaust gases >by the catalytic activity of the platinum metal electrodes." > >So yes, there are other reasons. Yes, but that's in a place where contact of the platinum with the exhaust gases catalyzes/oxidizes the HC and CO gas components (namely, in a CAT). Are you saying that this effect is part of the operation of the O2 sensor? If so, it's never mentioned in any of the papers AFAIK. But since I've admitted I'm a total putz in this electrochemical realm, I CAN see how the fact that gas components (H, HC, CO) seem to like platinum, certainly might dispose it for use as the outer electrodes. It's just that this is not the area normally mentioned where the recombination of oxygen ions with the gas components occurs, which affects the pumping current. It's always depicted as occuring in the porous ZrO2 portion, where the oxy ions are either removed or supplied to the sample of exhaust gas. But then again, these devices are referred to as galvanic cells, which generally require dissimilar metals/semiconductors. So does that mean the ZrO2 is one such material, and the platinum makes up the other "plates" of this sorta battery. Ouch, my head is beginning to hurt; if only I'd payed attention in Chemistry class. I know there is at least one physical chemist lurking behind the curtain; maybe you could lift the veil on this stuff for us, eh? TIA, Gar - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:14:14 -0500 From: "the Fredericks" Subject: RE: aftermarket ecu etc... Both the DFI and the Felpro allow you to do just this. DFI allows monitoring and datalogging about 40 parameters; you can pick 6 at any one time. It also has screens for the fuel and spark maps with a cursor showing which cell is being accessed. This allows you to watch them on the screen while the car's running, change the maps, etc. I believe the Felpro capabilities are similar. If you've got a 148 ECM, you can use two really neat tools; one called Turbolink and one called DirectScan, that show the ALDL data in graphic formats in realtime. Diacom does this also for several GM ECMs. Good luck! Kendall Frederick > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-diy_efi@xxx.org]On > Behalf Of Toby Atwater > > Sorry I know this isn't "Do It Yourself", more like "Pay it Yourself and > break the bank" > > Does anybody know of a aftermarket ECU that has some kind of PC > output? All > the ones I have seen either have a separate unit with a small b/w lcd > screen, or else they have some kind of data logging capabilities that will > off load to a PC "after the race". What I am looking for is > something with a > PC output that will display what is being inputting into the ECU through > it's sensors in real time, or close to real time. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 100 12:38:36 +0800 (WST) From: Bernd Felsche Subject: Re: Fuel pressure waring light mike mager writes: >Clint S. said: >>I would like to install a fuel pressure idiot light, I have a turbo and >>would like to know if pressure drops off at high boost . >Sure, but do you need a computer to do it?! >What precision, accuracy, resolution, are you considering? A good question - oil pressure transducers don't have guarranteed compatability; well the local VDO guys aren't about to. EFI runs from anywhere between 200kPa and 400kPa - there could be others, but that gives you an order of magnitude. Note that the pressure is often regulated to be relative to the manifold pressure. It's interesting that pressure isn't measured directly in garden-variety ECUs, seeing that it's directly related to controlling the amount of fuel injected. The feedback from Lambda does help to tighten mixture regulation, but knowing the fuel pressure in the first place can allow you to fine-tune the injection time before the combustion takes place. Besides; the wide-band Lambda technology is still bleeding edge so maximum power output at a rich mixture is out-of-band for the "switching" type. (Hope to see one of those new affordable wide-band gadgets RSN. :-) - -- Real Name: Bernd Felsche Email: nospam.bernie@xxx.au http://www.perth.dialix.com.au/~bernie - Private HP - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:56:01 -0600 From: MysticZ Subject: Re: MAP sensing for IR systems nacelp wrote: > > Speaking in the realm of GM ecms: That's what I know too (F-body, spec.), but my plaything is way different. > MAF, in some applications, maybe. The only real problem with MAF is the lag > of the wire changing temps, and the correction for that. Yup, plus the very wide range of temps the sensor will be sitting in. There is no radiator fan, which is fine, but makes the temps go all over the place. > MAP, shouldn't be a problem, unless you run into problems filtering it, then > Alpha-N. To me Aplha-N's are just for when you run out of camshaft manners > at idle, and the transistion off idle. The idle is a bit rough on this bike. 2 cylinder, enormous carbs compared to a car (this .5 liter engine will have nearly the same size throttle body as my 5.7 liter V8) > Once ya get over 1,500 in just about > any engine, you should be able to read a MAP well enough to get a handle on > things. It's the low speed sesitivity that gives you problems, not the lack > of it. 1500 is the idle speed of this engine ;) > There are two items here, the electronics of the matter, and the > mechanicals. You need to filter, both to some degree. The Apha-N, is the > poorest of lot, since it doesn't even do that. Then if your running a vac > referenced regulator, you got another bucket of worms to resolve. I won't be able to control a regulator with vacuum. Won't happen. What I hope to make work is a fixed pressure (and quite high to help with atomization) and changing the fuel flow purely with injector duty cycle. - -- Steve 97 Chevy Camaro Z28, Mystic teal, A4, not stock 90 Kawasaki EX500A4, black, M6, not even CLOSE to stock! lt1_z28@xxx.net/~lt1_z28 Aluminum, steel, carbon fiber, titanium, and two cast iron balls. McMillan Motorsports- http://www.mmsbikes.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:21:31 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: O2 sensor response times - cleaning ? At 05:35 PM 27/3/2000 -0800, Orin wrote: >Heywood pg 301: "Equilibrium is established in the exhaust gases >by the catalytic activity of the platinum metal electrodes." mmmm Just a thought, Is there any chance a 'hot purge' in fre O2 at high temp can 'flush' the sensor ? ie. Remove sensor from exh manifold, put in oven with liberal feed of pure O2 and heat to exhaust temp for a period of time, perhaps cycle through temp range whilst flowing o2 over it... I'm guessing this might flush out some/most contaminants - anyone in a position to try this - or interested ? I wonder if someone has an oxy torch, can make up a little pipe, close off the end, heat it with the oxy (not too hot), fill the pipe with O2 from the oxy tank and let it cool down filled with pure o2 ? Rgds :) Mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:30:43 From: "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" Subject: Re: Fuel pressure waring light At 01:05 PM 27/3/2000 PST, "mike mager" wrote: >Clint S. said: > >>I would like to install a fuel pressure idiot light, I have a turbo and >>would like to know if pressure drops off at high boost . > >Sure, but do you need a computer to do it?! >What precision, accuracy, resolution, are you considering? I've had this worry as well, what I intend to do is run a pair of gauges, one next to each other. ie. One on left is boost gauge, and the one on right is fuel pressure gauge but, both with drag pointers. That way as I go up in various boost ranges (and back down) I can check that the peak is differentially the same... One thing though, make sure your low pressure FI pump is owkring properly as this shows up at hiogher boost causing the high pressure FI pump to cavitate *and* check your voltage across your high pressure FI pump is as close to batt/alt output as possible... I'll be building a SMPS just for that to make sure it always gets its required 13.8v regardless of batt volts - I can then wind it up to 15 or 16 v on boost if I'm worried its not supplying enough at the top end... Rgds :) mike - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:52:56 +0100 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: DIY-EFI's Funny 'reply all' Hi All, Why is it that with DIY-EFI when I click my 'reply to all' button in my mailer I reply to diy-efi twice rather than the original sender and diy-efi? I am a member of another this and that is fine... Why is it different for diy-efi? Thanx, Ade - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:48:17 +0100 From: Ade + Lamb Chop Subject: Re: Measuring weight At 00:06 27/03/00 -0600, MysticZ wrote: >In all of the calculating and figuring for the fuel injection system I >came across a little problem. I need an accurate way to measure the >bike. I got a rough idea by putting each wheel on a bathroom scale and >adding the results (366 pounds wet, roughly 25 pounds less than stock :) >However, I'm not happy with that setup since it's only accurate to about >2-3 pounds (assuming the scale's right) and a pain in the ass to set up. >Anyone know where I could find some kind of gizmo that converts weight >to voltage accurately? I'd like to interface the whole thing to an LCD >that displays the individual weight of each wheel, the total weight, and >the weight distribution. A stamp or Oopic should do that easy. That is exactly what most digital scales do. My mum has a pair of digtal bath room scales. Ade - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:46:15 -0800 From: Ludis Langens Subject: Re: Cheap protection... "Mike (Perth, Western Australia)" wrote: > > [4049 and 4050 CMOS buffers] > > OK, its good to know there are CMOS devices which diverge a little and > sidestep that particular latchup problem, lets hope all the variants from > different manufacturer's share that feature, All the 4049's and 4050's will have this feature because that's what these two chips are meant to do. They are meant to interface logic devices running at different supply voltages. - -- Ludis Langens ludis (at) cruzers (dot) com Mac, Fiero, & engine controller goodies: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/ - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 16:50:28 +1000 From: Peter Gargano Subject: Re: DIY-EFI's Funny 'reply all' More to the point - Who is Hektor Valesh? Ade + Lamb Chop wrote: > Why is it that with DIY-EFI when I click my 'reply to all' button in my > mailer I reply to diy-efi twice rather than the original sender and > diy-efi? I am a member of another this and that is fine... Why is it > different for diy-efi? If you look at the "source" of the message (ie. the headers etc.) the answer is obvious. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 01:00:34 -0600 From: MysticZ Subject: Re: Measuring weight Ade + Lamb Chop wrote: > > That is exactly what most digital scales do. My mum has a pair of > digtal bath room scales. Hmm... I have a digital scale that doesn't work worth a damn anymore. Perhaps I should dismantle it and see how it works... Then throw the corpse in the pile with the scavenged alarm clocks and hard drives ;) Yes, I think I will do just that. - -- Steve 97 Chevy Camaro Z28, Mystic teal, A4, not stock 90 Kawasaki EX500A4, black, M6, not even CLOSE to stock! lt1_z28@xxx.net/~lt1_z28 Aluminum, steel, carbon fiber, titanium, and two cast iron balls. McMillan Motorsports- http://www.mmsbikes.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:45:24 +0200 From: "Espen Hilde" Subject: Re: O2 sensor response times I cant clame to be a chemestry expert.....I cant even spell it right.... It looks to me that in the CAT the not burned O2 can attach to the platinum and stays there untill a HC comes by...... Espen > Yes, but that's in a place where contact of the platinum with the > exhaust gases catalyzes/oxidizes the HC and CO gas components (namely, > in a CAT). Are you saying that this effect is part of the operation of > the O2 sensor? If so, it's never mentioned in any of the papers AFAIK. > > But since I've admitted I'm a total putz in this electrochemical realm, > I CAN see how the fact that gas components (H, HC, CO) seem to like > platinum, certainly might dispose it for use as the outer electrodes. > - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:21:01 PST From: "mike mager" Subject: Re: Measuring weight MysticZ asked about a weighing system: Alright, well, I have disassembled just about every machine that I could ever get access to!; it's my way . . . . . . and I found . . . I found that the low-quality/low-price digital _bathroom_ scale uses a spring, and a 'hidden' wheel, - just like the one with the numbers on it for an analog-readout mechanical model - with no numbers, but with a series of holes, just like a CKP. The thing 'boots' at zero, and then counts the number of holes (quadrature, maybe). Truly bogus! I found that the higher-quality/higher-price digital _bathroom_ scales (as I own) use a true load-cell - no spring! With a load-cell, it's just a Wheatstone bridge, so, you could buy two of them (~50USD at Fred Meyer - not bad for a quantity one load-cell!), install a switch and a jack, and use either the internal display, or the jack. Now, the jack, here's where it gets fun! You know hardware/software, right?, so just rig up a PIC, or any minimal analog-input MCU, and the appropriate output device (NS 5051 35-bit constant-current serial LED display-driver, HD44780 LCD module?). You can cal the bridge at 'zero' each time, and that will take out your tare (ramps, paper to keep it clean, rain, whatever), just like the - oh, yes - mine is a Sunbeam. I needed to read a few messages of this thread before I even understood the question (now it makes sense); sounds fun, easy, useful. Mike ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 00:45:08 PST From: "mike mager" Subject: Re: 8051 EFI [complete message below] >My toy is based around a Renault Alpine 1400cc cross flow - Four cylinder . . . >Then some 'erb told me that fuel injecting that lump was immpossible >period. Hilarious! I have learned that when some jerk says, "you can't do that", he really means, "I (jerk) can't do that". >Wonder how far down stream I need to mount the sensor on a 4-into-1 >exahuast.... I lack practical experience on the custom side, otherwise, just copy the OEMs (tough with four into one). Oh, 'PS'-like, look at some emissions-legal V-8 exhaust, see how they do four into one!; that will work, and you do have a heater. >As far as the software goes, most of the problems I have can be put down to >the fuel map - at the moment, a best guess data. On to tuning, then. >With a lambda sensor, I hope to have a self teach mode. Sure, the OEMs do. >Communication with a laptop is one area that needs to be sorted. That, or similar, is what many of us would like. >Then I can have a go at the ignition system - some bright spark will tell >me it can't be done. Right; . . . "would you hold this wire for me?" . . . >So there you have it, four sequential injectors and two coils on a >100x160mm board. >Still interested ? The size sounds great; I do need the capacity to run more cylinders, so, still thinking about implementing something of my own design/construction (non-urgent, still plenty of time). Thaks, Paul, Mike >From: Paul Corner >Reply-To: diy_efi@xxx.org >To: diy_efi@xxx.org >Subject: Re: 8051 EFI >Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:23:49 +0100 > > >Hi Mike > >My toy is based around a Renault Alpine 1400cc cross flow - originally >fitted >with some horrible down draught carb. Ran it for a couple of years with a >pair >of Webber DCOE's. Then some 'erb told me that fuel injecting that lump was >immpossible period. >So I rigged up some throttle flaps, one for each cylinder, and breadboarded >a >simple control based on the SSI 67F687. It ran, eventually. But since the >chip >never made it to the market, it was time to have a rethink. > >Picked up a 4 wire Lambda sensor today - so once I've added a boss to the >exhaust pipe, I can play around with a closed loop control. More questions >- >differential input buffer, input impedance, low pass filter, cut off >frequency... I suppose suck it and see. >Wonder how far down stream I need to mount the sensor on a 4-into-1 >exahuast.... > >As far as the software goes, most of the problems I have can be put down to >the >fuel map - at the moment, a best guess data. With a lambda sensor, I hope >to >have a self teach mode. Communication with a laptop is one area that needs >to >be sorted. Then I can have a go at the ignition system - some bright spark >will tell me it can't be done. > >So there you have it, four sequential injectors and two coils on a >100x160mm >board. >Still interested ? > >Regards, Paul. > > > Very intersting! Yes, I am always interested in what somebody can think >of, and get to function; and, no (probably) not interested in getting one >(yet), but I'm not even sure . . . > > > > [Those aren't puns - I _hate_ puns!] > > > > When I subscribed to the '332 list, I was just a bit too late into the >'332 project, and by the time I had thought it over, the group buy was >closed. Is yours oriented to a four-cylinder engine? I really need to do >some planning on the whole EFI matter! I drive a carb'd vehicle - with an >integral intake manifold! - so hacking an ECM on my 'daily driver' is out. > > My 'big project' engine is not even in hardware yet (design only). >Maybe I do want to scratch-build my own; wouldn't be 'better' than any >other, but it would be optimised for my application (yeah, right, buddy), >and I would know the 'why' of every little detail. Some of us have a drive >to do that! (you know) > > On the software, no major snag, I hope? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from diy_efi, send "unsubscribe diy_efi" (without the quotes) in the body of a message (not the subject) to majordomo@xxx.org ------------------------------ End of DIY_EFI Digest V5 #126 ***************************** To subscribe to DIY_EFI-Digest, send the command: subscribe diy_efi-digest in the body of a message to "Majordomo@xxx. A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to subscribe to that instead, replace "diy_efi-digest" in the command above with "diy_efi".