America Online APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG Tuesday, September 1, 1992 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time Topic: Beginners' Night Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFL GaryJ) AFL GaryJ Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum! AFL GaryJ This is our "Back to school special" night. Just for beginners of any kind. AFL Marty (the 's' word) AFL GaryJ OOpps. I forgot about the "s" word. AFC SteveB Gary, vulgar language is in violation of TOS :D AFL GaryJ At any rate, this is a night for anyone who wants to get started in anything AFL GaryJ related to Apple II, IIe, IIc, or IIGS programming. AFL GaryJ Assembly, BASIC, C, Pascal, or.... AFL GaryJ Even shell programming. DanP18 ? AFL GaryJ Dan is the first to raise his hand. GA, Dan. DanP18 on BASIC Are there any decent compilers for the IIGS? My copy of TML DanP18 BASIC makes a great paperweight, but not much else, these days. (ga) AFL GaryJ There are more decent compilers than TML, for sure. DanP18 related questionis Complete Software still around? AFL GaryJ Micol Advanced BASIC is one that many people swear by, and I've AFL GaryJ also heard many good things about AC/BASIC, but I'm not sure of the AFL Marty Micol Advanced BASIC is about the only one, isn't it? AFL GaryJ current status of it's production. AFL GaryJ (I think Marty is right) Spottysoft Outside of AC/Basic.... yeah.... AFL Marty I forgot about AC/Basic. AFL GaryJ Complete Software is not around anymore. AFL Marty (fortunately) DanP18 Not fortunately if you paid for the upgrade policy. Spottysoft I got a flyer from Micol Systems a few weeks ago offering a "new version 4.0" DanP18 Does anyone here use it? I want a programmers perspective. Matt DTS I do not use it. AFL GaryJ Most people are going for C and Assembly on the Apple IIGS. Spottysoft (If somebody could just write the toolbox interfaces for IBasic :) AFL GaryJ :) AFL GaryJ Lots of CALL's :) Spottysoft LOTS of 'em... AFL GaryJ Ok, if anyone else has a question they'd like to ask, or a comment, feel AFL GaryJ free to jump in. We are still in informal mode, at least until we get AFL GaryJ too rowdy. Joyce11049 ok, I program an Ibm clone at work but I have all the manuals and software for Joyce11049 programming the GS and I just want to get started in something so I dropped by Joyce11049 to see what tips I could pick up. I have all the orca languages and many apple Joyce11049 manuals AFL GaryJ What ORCA Languages do you own, Joyce? Any particular area that AFL GaryJ you'd like to get started in? Joyce11049 I have orca/c ,pascal, and orca/m. I'd like to learn more about the toolbox Joyce11049 so that I can use it effectively AFL GaryJ Do you have any previous experience in those languages? AFL GaryJ (Like Pascal?) Joyce11049 I know bits about both pascal and c but I can be dangerous in assembly AFL GaryJ (Is dangerous good or bad? :) Joyce11049 I mean bad dangerous. Matt DTS The Byte Works offers self-paced courses on programming in Pascal and C, and they also offer Matt DTS a Toolbox Programming in Pascal course (with one in C coming soon, I've heard). Matt DTS These are good ways to get your feet significantly more than wet. You can find more information in Joyce11049 Perhaps I have just too much stuff. So where's the best place to start? Matt DTS Byte Works' direct-connect area on here, whose keyword I keep forgetting. GA. Matt DTS (There's also a good article in A2-Central this month talking about how to be a programmer. ) AFL GaryJ Joyce, you should probably pick one of the high-level languages (C or Pascal) that AFL GaryJ you'd like to persue, and pick up one of the Byte Works course manuals. AFL GaryJ There is also a Pascal course being offered right now online, on AFL GaryJ using the IIGS Toolbox. But, it assumes you already have some kind of Joyce11049 which language is better? c or pascal? MikeF32 It's a matter of opinion... Pascal is easier to understand, I think MikeF32 I like C, though :) AFL GaryJ background in Pascal to begin with. It is centering on the IIGS specific AFL GaryJ features of Pascal. (You can download the class logs in Programmer U) DanP18 Are you interested in "programming" or "IIgs programming" ? AFA Jay Pascal is easier than C...C is more flexible, but that's my opinion Joyce11049 I'm interested in learning IIGS programming DanP18 Read "Technical Introduction to the Apple IIGS" DanP18 Then read Apple Human Interface Guidelines AFL GaryJ I think that one of the Byte Works courses would be the best kind of AFL GaryJ program to work through, as it gives a somewhat tutorial approach, taking you AFL GaryJ through the makings of a IIGS application (using the toolbox - assuming you AFL GaryJ get one of the toolbox courses, that is). MikeF32 I think I'd have to agree, since Technical Intro is sorta outta date MikeF32 I personally started with assembly, the hardware ref, and firmware ref. MikeF32 But that was in another era AFL GaryJ There was a book called "Programmer's Introduction to the Apple IIGS" (one of the AFL GaryJ Addison Wesley books published for Apple), and it was good in it's AFL GaryJ day (for about 30 minutes :), but it IS out of date now. DanP18 Granted Tech Intro is out of date, but it will gives a foundation in DanP18 GS terminology and internals. ga. AFL GaryJ So will Programmer's Introduction. AFL GaryJ It does explain some fundamental aspects of toolbox programming. AFC DYAJim Oh, I just wanted to say that my favorite combination was orca/m with AFC DYAJim lichty & eyes' "programming the Apple IIgs in Assembly Language", and then AFC DYAJim eventually all the "apple" books (tbr 1-3, firmware ref, hardware ref, etc) AFL GaryJ Yes. Good recommendation. AFL GaryJ The Lichty & Eyes book is very good if you want to learn Assembly. AFL GaryJ It takes you from the beginning to the end, and you'll have a desktop program AFL GaryJ when you are done :) Joyce11049 My problem is I think that I want to learn all of it! But I have Toolbox Joyce11049 Programming in Pascal right here so perhaps I should begin there to the Joyce11049 exclusion of all the other stuff until I learn that. I have too much stuff ga MikeF32 I'm assumming you know Pascal, so dig right into that book MikeF32 For now, forget assembly. Forget the location of the SHR screen MikeF32 Forget how softwitchs work....you don't need to know AFL GaryJ Right. The language takes care of all that stuff for you. AFC DYAJim If you like to "hack", and experiment and tweak and twiddle, or so to speak, AFC DYAJim go with assembly. I always was fascinated with the inner operatings; how the AFC DYAJim disk i/o worked, how animation was performed, how sound drivers worked, etc, AFC DYAJim what were softswitches and how could I use them, so I went with assembly. And AFC DYAJim used it exclusively until a few weeks ago. AFC DYAJim But that's just me :) ga AFL GaryJ It is true, you should have an idea what you want to do. That helps AFL GaryJ in making the decision on what language to pick. If you want fast animation AFL GaryJ or game writing, then choose assembly. Otherwise, it doesn't matter :) Joyce11049 I like Assembly for its complete control of everything, c for its high level Joyce11049 control of everything and pascal for its beginners approach. but I do have an Joyce11049 idea that I should stick with Pascal till I get going with the toolbox. It's Joyce11049 better than collecting a lot of books and just collect dust on the shelf Joyce11049 Thanks for your help. I'll let you know how I'm coming along. (GA) DanP18 beleive me, IIgs reference books don't sit on a shelf long enoguh to gather DanP18 dust. ga. AFL GaryJ If you have further questions as you progress in your learning (or just AFL GaryJ starting out, for that matter), you can post them in our message boards AFL GaryJ and someone here will answer them for you. AFL GaryJ Our next question is from Dan. GA, Dan DanP18 I recently bought a CD-ROm drive. Are there any IIgs DanP18 compatible titles available? ga MikeF32 Umm, gee, I remember a Freeware Collection Disc MikeF32 And then you have the Apple Developer discs, but they're 90% mac Spottysoft (the GEM-CD) AFC DYAJim Get the sys 6 GM CD-ROM, by all means. It's well worth it if you're a AFC DYAJim developer. AFL GaryJ GM = Golden Master AFL GaryJ Next Tuesday night, our topic will be "Debugging Your Software", and we AFL GaryJ will have as our guest, Mike Westerfield from The Byte Works. He'll AFL GaryJ be here to talk about ORCA/Debugger. AFL GaryJ (And I'm sure he'll talk about his other newly released products, and AFL GaryJ perhaps give us a hint as to what's in store in the future). Norman LJ Did ProDOS 2.0 come out? MikeF32 Log ago, Norman AFL GaryJ Long ago, even :) Dave Lyons Norman, ProDOS 8 2.0.1 is included with System 6. -- If you mean has it been release separately, Dave Lyons then No, but it will be eventually. ga Dave Lyons (You can copy it off and boot directly into ProDOS 8...just rename the P8 file to PRODOS.) AFL GaryJ Was your question directed at the separate release of ProDOS 2.0.1, Norman? Norman LJ (Thanks for the info) Norman LJ yes DanP18 same questionCD-ROM...last thing I saw was Freeware collection. ga. AFL GaryJ Spotty mentioned the GEM-CD, and AFL GaryJ Jim mentioned the Golden Master 6.0 CD. Spottysoft The only CD that *I* know of is the GEM-CD.... but there has been some talk Spottysoft over in ATB about another group working on one. DanP18 What's the GEM-CD? What's on it? AFL GaryJ Spotty, do you know? Spottysoft Gary.. no I don't... :( All I know about it is it contains.... Spottysoft ....a lot of freeware (and possibly shareware) title for both the IIgs and Spottysoft 8-bit IIs. AFL GaryJ That must be the one I was thinking of too. I'm not sure what titles are on it. Spottysoft (It was realeased about 3 years ago so much of the stuff will be dated ) AFC DYAJim in regard to GEM, I was going to quote availability information from a post AFC DYAJim in ATB.. AFC DYAJim Yes, the GEM-CD is still available, as far as I know Call Digital AFC DYAJim Data Express, 13636 South Western Avenue, Suite 28, Blue Island, AFC DYAJim IL 60406, 7083897744 They're the only place that I'm certain AFC DYAJim would have it Cost? About $80, if it hasn't changed AFC DYAJim There :) If you want more info, I'd spose you could call these people too. AFL GaryJ :) AFL GaryJ Thanks, Jim. AFC DYAJim I have to order a copy myself, when I can scrape up the cash :) Norman LJ Is there a C compiler for //e? AFL GaryJ Norman There was Aztec C for the IIe. AFL GaryJ I have their address here, someplace (if I can find it). AFA Jay Also Hyper C online. AFL GaryJ Does anyone know if they still exist? GNO Jawaid Norman- Hyper C should be available here on AOL. M Wolfgram Eclipse Systems did a REAL nice ProDOS shell for the DOS 3.3 Aztec C stuff... included full source! AFL GaryJ Yes, Hyper C is available in our library. AFC SteveB I used Aztec C at work...while different than anything I've AFC SteveB ever used, although it was pretty fast (for a 1 Mhz Apple IIe) Norman LJ How much is Aztec c? M Wolfgram Aztec is fairly close to the way gospel K&R was meant to be... I liked the intermediate asm source! Norman LJ (also how much is Hyper C) AFL GaryJ I'm looking for the address still (keep talking everyone :) AFC DYAJim Hyper C is free M Wolfgram Gary - the last Aztec ad I saw was in Dr Dobbs GNO Jawaid Speaking of C compilers... M Wolfgram OK- how's lcc, Jawaid? AFL GaryJ That's probably where it resides now, so the address I have wouldn't do AFL GaryJ you any good. AFL Marty Was Pecan Systems handling that? AFC SteveB Actually, Hyper C is shareware. M Wolfgram Pecan had Fortran and (ugh) Pascal if I remember right. GNO Jawaid :) I've got three minor bugs to fix, and I could let folks play with it for GNO Jawaid a while. However, gcc is required (i.e. you need a Unix or 386 DOS box) M Wolfgram Ansi or K&R? GNO Jawaid 100% ANSI and POSIX compliant, the authors claim. GNO Jawaid So far, I'm very impressed with it; if they were to offer to sell me a bridge, GNO Jawaid I'd probably buy :-) Norman LJ Thanks for the C info.