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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, September 8, 1992  10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
Topic:  ByteWorks Conference with Mike Westerfield
Forum Leader:  Gary Jacobson (AFL GaryJ)

AFL GaryJ  Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum!
AFL GaryJ  Tonight we have a special guest, Mike Westerfield from The Byte
           Works!!
AFL GaryJ  Welcome Mike!
AFL GaryJ  Mike is here to talk about his new products, particularly our
           scheduled
AFL GaryJ  topic of the ORCA/Debugger!
MikeW50    Gary suggested that I start off with some comments.  As usual, I have
           very
MikeW50    little in the way of prepared comments.  The topic is nominally
           debugging & the
MikeW50    ORCA/Debugger, but hey, I ain't picky.  We've released several other
           new
MikeW50    products recently, including Toolbox Programming in Pascal,
           Programmer's
MikeW50    Reference for System 6.0, and, as of today, Toolbox Programming in C.
           I'll 
MikeW50    be happy to field questions about these or any other products.
HURLANT    I am curious if I will get an opportunity to buy Quick Click.
HURLANT    Cause I WILL buy everything else.
HURLANT    That the Byteworks publishes.
MikeW50    I doubt it.  I showed the program around a bit to gauge the interest
           level.
MikeW50    The reaction that I got was overwhelmingly "If it isn't a 'full' CAD
           program,
MikeW50    don't bother."  The definition for full CAD seemed to be AutoCAD plus
           a few
MikeW50    extensions.  <shrug>  That's not what I had in mind.  ga
HURLANT    I never saw it. I would like it. $200, $500.
HURLANT    But if non cad people try it, they will realize it's usefulness.
HURLANT    Kitchen sink has accudraw, and it is usefull, I hear.
HURLANT    We use cad at work, and it is useless. A simple, accurate drafting
           package
HURLANT    would be Great!
HURLANT    Screwed out of a great program because some twits want a GS to be a
           CRAY!!!
AFL Marty  (GMTA, Hurlant)
AFL GaryJ  Sounds like you have a fan of your program, Mike :)
AFL GaryJ  More than one.
HURLANT    Shoot it at the educational market, who doesn't know you exist!
AFA Jay    I agree, we use AutoCad at school, I don't think that big of a
           package is
AFA Jay    needed for high school archiecture and mechanical drawing.
FredW GS   What's a high school going to do with CAD?
MikeW50    I thought it would be a good program, but the initial reactions just
           weren't
MikeW50    there.  I may still do it someday... but it isn't a priority, now.
           ga
AFL Marty  You're right, Jay.  
HURLANT    Get swamped in hardware and upgrade costs.
AFL Marty  Talk about overkill.
AFL GaryJ  Thanks for the comment/question, Hurlant.  Maybe with enough
           encouragement from
AFL GaryJ  people like you, Mike will get the message :)
HURLANT    Until it is released, I will get Accudraw.
MikeW50    That's if... not until.  :)  ga
AFL GaryJ  Ok, Fred... did you want to ask a question?
FredW GS   Yes, I do a lot of signal processing...
FredW GS   Is there an easy way to do a Pascal equivalent of the BLOAD and BSAVE
           commands?
MikeW50    Not really.  Pascal's file I/O is a lot more sophisticated than
           AppleSofts,
MikeW50    so you don't generally do things quite that way.  Instead, you open a
           file,
MikeW50    and read it as needed.  If you want a good look at file I/O in
           Pascal, you
MikeW50    can see any Pascal introductory course, including ours.  There _is_ a
           way to
MikeW50    load the whole file using GS/OS, and it's not all that hard, but it
           isn't as
MikeW50    easy as BLoad.  One place where this is covered is "Toolbox
           Programming in 
MikeW50    Pascal."
FredW GS   OK, until  I get some more time I'll have to stick to MAB for now,
           thank you.
AFL GaryJ  Thanks, Mike.  Yes, besides the "Toolbox Programming in Pascal", Mike
AFL GaryJ  offers an introductory Pascal course, as well (which he alluded to).
AFL GaryJ  Hurlant has the next question.  GA, Hurlant.
HURLANT    When writing a cda, your DP contains the cursor control hooks,
           etc.$24,$25
HURLANT    And you have to avoid overwriting those, correct?
MikeW50    No.
HURLANT    I thought storing data there would alter the cursor position.
MikeW50    Not generally.  You can use a variety of text output systems,
           including the
MikeW50    BASIC one you are thinking about, but it's not a great idea to be
           stuffing
MikeW50    bytes in the GS's memory.  Also, which I/O system you are using
           depends to some
MikeW50    extent on the language you are using.  ORCA/Pascal and ORCA/C have a
           small
MikeW50    I/O system all their own, just to make sure they don't interfere with
           the main
MikeW50    program.  ga
HURLANT    So when using the text tools, what I said applies? I am using
           assembly.
MikeW50    The text tools can access any number of different I/O mechanisms.
           Including
MikeW50    BASIC.  ga
HURLANT    Where can I find info about the Basic protocol for the text tools?
MikeW50    I don't really know.  Dave?  Frankly, I stopped using BASIC protcall
           when
MikeW50    something better came along (Pascal) and never looked back.  ga
HURLANT    I will do the same.
MikeW50    (Dave?  Matt?  This is out of my area...)
AFL GaryJ  It's in one of the manuals... (I can look while going on to the next
           question).
Matt DTS   What do you want to know?  There's not much to it.
Matt DTS   You can read or write and that's it -- and reading or writing hangs
           forever until the device is
Matt DTS   available.  GA.
HURLANT    I am interested in Programming in assembly book, Mike.
MikeW50    I plan to eventually do a "Toolbox Programming in Assembly" course,
           like the
MikeW50    C and Pascal ones we have now.  Is that what you're looking for,
           Hurant?  ga
HURLANT    Yes! They were wonderfully done.
AFL GaryJ  That will be great, Mike.
AFL GaryJ  Ok, for anyone who may have come in late, tonight we have Mike
           Westerfield
AFL GaryJ  from The Byte Works as our special guest.  If anyone has a question
           on
AFL GaryJ  any of his products, or some of the newer products he just released
           (such as
AFL GaryJ  ORCA/Debugger, Toolbox Programming in Pascal, Toolbox Programming in
           C,
AFL GaryJ  or Reference for System 6.0), then type a "?" to get in the question
AFL GaryJ  queue.
HURLANT    How does toolbox in c differ from Programming in c?
MikeW50    "Learn to Program in C" is an intorductory course, covering the C
           language and
MikeW50    some basic programming techniques.  "Toolbox Programming in C" covers
           GS
MikeW50    specific toolbox programming, showing you how to write desktop
           programs with
MikeW50    menu bars, windows, controls, sound, and so forth.  ga
AFL GaryJ  Thanks, Hurlant, and Mike.  Our next question is from DYAJim.  GA
           Jim.
AFC DYAJim I was just wondering if there is any command in orca/m that i'm
           overlooking
AFC DYAJim that will allow one to copy a binary or related file right into the
           assembler.
AFC DYAJim Like say I have a $800 byte sine/cosine table and I want to embed it
           right
AFC DYAJim into my program, but the table is a BIN file.  Is there no way to do
           this?
MikeW50    No, there is no way to do this, short of writing a very short program
           to
MikeW50    turn the binary file into a series of source statements that can be
           assembled.
AFL GaryJ  Jim:  Parik Rao wrote some ORCA shell commands that will do just
           that.
AFC DYAJim ick.  was afraid of that.. what's bad about that is if your file is
           CHANGING
AFL GaryJ  They are available in our Library.
AFC DYAJim frequently.  if I were to use Parik's Sourcerer (which, btw, is buggy
           - 
AFC DYAJim it always leaves off or corrupts the last several bytes - so first
           I'd have
AFC DYAJim to debug it :) I would have to re-source the entire source file every
           time
AFC DYAJim it changed, and sourcerer is a slow program.
Matt DTS   You can easily read it into a resource with Rez's "read" command, and
           Rez works well (and maybe
Matt DTS   comes with ORCA languages).  GA.
AFL GaryJ  Right, a resource is the other alternative.
AFC DYAJim yes, I thought of rez's read, but sometimes it's just much more
           convenient
AFC DYAJim to embed it right in the program.  i'll rethink using rez tho.
AFC DYAJim Someone should write a super-efficient "sourcerer" (like parik's but
           better :)
MikeW50    It's really not that hard to just write the DC statements.  You can
           use the
MikeW50    copy directive to copy the same file you write.  ga
AFL GaryJ  Jim, one time I had to generate a 256 byte random number table.  I
           did it in
AFC DYAJim Yeah, but the trouble is that it's a slow process to have to go thru
           time
AFC DYAJim after time if the file changes semi-frequently.. but thanks for
           bringing it
AFC DYAJim up mike.
AFL GaryJ  Applesoft, and generated an ORCA compatable text file (with DC's).
AFL GaryJ  It was pretty easy.
AFC DYAJim I bet it was slow :)
AFC DYAJim And dropping into BASIC each time to redo it wold be a chore, but
           I"ll shut
AFC DYAJim up and stop complaining so GA :)
AFL GaryJ  I only had to do it one time!  I just needed a table of random hex
           values.
AFL GaryJ  (Random the first time :)
HURLANT    If I randomly drop into GSBUG, from a desktop program,
HURLANT    I seem to be stuck in the event loop. How do I step into various
           routines
HURLANT    easily? Stupid question?
MikeW50    That's because your program spends almost all of its time in the
           event loop.
MikeW50    One way to handle this is to set a break point, either in your source
           code
MikeW50    (which is what I generally do) or from GSBug itself.  ga
HURLANT    Like a newwindow type call, etc.
AFL GaryJ  Either way is an excellent method of debugging code.  You can place
           the break points
AFL GaryJ  right where you need them, where you need to do the checking and
           testing.
AFA Jay    Or use DebugStr from within your program :)
AFC SteveB (_DebugStr)
AFC SteveB GMTA :)
JoyceAnn S I hope this is not too much off the subject, but how is C++ different
           from c?
MikeW50    Basically, C++ is ANSI C with extensions for object oriented
           programming.
MikeW50    There are a _very_ small number of actual changes to ANSI C, but for
           the most
MikeW50    part, C++ is ANSI C with some new stuff added.  ga
AFL GaryJ  Thanks, Mike.  Anything else, Joyce?
JoyceAnn S This might be dumb but what exactly is object oriented programming ga
AFL GaryJ  No questions are dumb, Joyce
HURLANT    A pathetic attempt to emulate IIGS programming! :)
MikeW50    :)  It's not dumb, but it's not a three-liner, either.  In a very,
           very brief
MikeW50    way, object oriented programming is a new way to organize a program.
           The idea
MikeW50    is to encapsulate data and the routines that work on the data in
           nice, neat
MikeW50    little packages.  You can then move the pacakges from one program to
           another.
MikeW50    It's sort of like good subroutine libraries carried to an extreme.
           Onject
MikeW50    oriented languages also have features that make it easy to modify the
           routines
MikeW50    that work on the data, so in a lot of cases, instead of starting from
           scratch, 
MikeW50    you start with an object written by someone else and tweek it a
           little.  The
MikeW50    goal of object oriented programming is to make it easier to develop
           reliable
MikeW50    applications quickly by making more extensive use of existing code,
           and by 
MikeW50    making it easier for large groups of people to work together without
           stepping
MikeW50    on each others' toes (at least, as much as normal!)  ga
AFL GaryJ  Thank you, Mike!  Good explanation in a *few* lines :)
JoyceAnn S So is Hurlant indicating that it already exists on the Gs in the
           toolbox
MikeW50    Well.... sort of.  The toolbox fits in well with object oriented
           programming,
MikeW50    and it sure fits into the ideas.  After all, the toolbox is a large
           set of
MikeW50    prewritten routines that you can build on, or even modify or replace
           if you're
MikeW50    feeling lucky.  While it fits in well with object oriented
           programming, though,
MikeW50    and fills many of the same needs, the toolbox is not in-and-of itself
           stricly
MikeW50    object oriented.  After all, to date, there aren't even any object
           oriented
MikeW50    languages on the GS!  On the other hand, object oriented programming
           is a 
MikeW50    concept, not a language.  Just as you can use structured programming
           ideas in
MikeW50    a non-structured language (like assembly or BASIC), you can also use
           object
MikeW50    oriented programming ideas in any language, and the toolbox does
           that, to a
MikeW50    degree.  ga
JoyceAnn S Thanks for that explanation. I understand the idea much better now.
AFL GaryJ  Thanks Joyce and Mike.  Hurlant has the next question.  GA, Hurlant
HURLANT    Prototyped headers for C are for the purpose of verifying the
           variables passed
HURLANT    to and returned from a finction, correct?
HURLANT    function
MikeW50    Yes, and functions, too.  :)  The also allow the compiler to convert
           parameters
MikeW50    to the correct type in many cases.  For example, if you pass 1 (an
           integer) to
MikeW50    a function that expects a float, with prototyped parameters, the
           compiler can
MikeW50    quietly make the proper conversion.  ga
HURLANT    Remarkable!
HURLANT    Has the response been good so far?
MikeW50    The response seems fine.  I've had enough requests that they will
           definitely
MikeW50    be in the next version of C, though.  ga
HURLANT    I would like to thank Mike for his work that really guarantees the
           usefullness
HURLANT    of my GS for YEARS to come!
AFL GaryJ  Very very true, Hurlant.  
MikeW50    Thanks!  I'll be here as long as you guys keep paying my rent!  :)
JoyceAnn S How can we resist with the good products you keep making!
AFL GaryJ  The Byte Works has released quite a few new products in the last few
           months.  You seem
AFL GaryJ  to be on a roll!  What do you have in store for the future?
MikeW50    Well, we're in a cycle of releasing things we've been working on for
           some time.
MikeW50    As of today, we're shipping "Toolbox Programming in C," the course
           that you've
MikeW50    seen for Pascal, only for the C language.  At some point, there will
           be an
MikeW50    assembly language version of the same course.
MikeW50    I've also been doing a lot of work getting the products up to date,
           taking
MikeW50    advantage of the new O/S geatures, improving code generation, and
           adding new
MikeW50    features.  You've already seen ORCA/M 2.0, and you can expect to see
           similar
MikeW50    improvements in C and Pascal late this year and early next year.
MikeW50    I'm also workgin with some outside authors.  One of those projects
           should
MikeW50    bring a Modula 2 compiler to the ORCA environment sometime soon,
           probably
MikeW50    early next year.  We're also working towards an animation toolset.
           And, once
MikeW50    I get the 2.0 C and Pascal out, there are several other products that
           need
MikeW50    updates.
MikeW50    I'm still looking for new ideas for GS products; that's part of what
           QC Draw
MikeW50    was all about.  I'm not sure what you'll see from me after the
           current cycle,
MikeW50    but I do plan to release more GS products after this cycle is
           finished.  If you
MikeW50    have any ideas, I'd love to hear them!  ga
AFL GaryJ  Modula 2!  A few people have been asking about that.  It sounds like
           you have plenty to work on!
Spottysoft Mike... will we (Orca/C owners) be getting a flyer/order form for the
           Toolbox
Spottysoft C course soon?  ga
MikeW50    Spotty, I've sent out a prerelease letter to everyone who a) has C
           and b) has
MikeW50    registered something with us in the last year.  A more extensive
           mailing is in
MikeW50    the works.  Now that we're shipping (as of today!) I'll also be
           uploading
MikeW50    announcements in our indstry connection area, hopefully before the
           end of the
MikeW50    week.
Spottysoft Okay... thanks.  I have a couple of things I need to order from you
           still
Spottysoft I missed out on the Orca/Debugger offer.. :(
Spottysoft <--got tied up with too many things  :/
MikeW50    Wait for the Tollbox C offer, then, Spotty -- there's a bundle with
           the
MikeW50    debugger!  ga
AFC SteveB Yay :)  Just an idea for a  feature I'd love to see in ORCA/C...
AFC SteveB (In a future update)...A way to write your own pragmas...
AFC SteveB So you can write ones to do funky stuff with the code and avoid
AFC SteveB some assembly interfaces.  ga
MikeW50    I have no idea how that would work without giving you more access to
           the
MikeW50    internals of the compiler that I've ever seen anyone document.  You
           also have
MikeW50    macros and the asm statement.  What sort of thing are you trying to
           do?  Maybe
MikeW50    I'm just not connecting with what you have in mind.  ga
AFC SteveB Well...True, lots of stuff can be done from an ASM segment...
AFC SteveB But it would be cool if I could write stuff to do things to
AFC SteveB the code instantly without any such segment...for example, I
AFC SteveB could write a pragma to make writing Foundation modules
AFC SteveB with just C easier...just an example.  GA
MikeW50    It sounds like you want sme way to do a custom .root file, for
           rolling your
MikeW50    own things like what is currently done with the cda, nda, and rtl
           pragmas.  is
MikeW50    that right, or am I missing your point?  ga
AFC SteveB Right Mike. ga
HURLANT    Would you be interested in taking over Maxedit? It will be free in
           one month.
MikeW50    Hurlant: I don't know...  I already have 2 editors.  I'd have to look
           at
MikeW50    Maxedit to see what is unique about it, both in terms of problems and
MikeW50    advantages.  Could you send me some info on it offline, so I can look
           into it
MikeW50    seriously?  ga
HURLANT    I run my system about as clumsily as anyone, and it is tough! 30
           files in mem.
MikeW50    Steve:  I'm not sure how that could be done, but I'll give it some
           thought.
MikeW50    If you could roll your own, it sure would solve some problems I;ve
           had
MikeW50    keeping up with 40 new ways to call a program each month!  :)  ga
HURLANT    at the same time, locked so you can launch anything and return
           instantly to
HURLANT    them. 16,000 characters in macros, autoload, etc.
Matt DTS   I extremely dislike how Maxedit keeps files in memory across
           applications, making other apps run
Matt DTS   out of memory rather than giving them up.
MikeW50    Hurlant, I don't use Maxedit, and I'm just not familiar enough to
           make a snap
MikeW50    decision.  I'll have to look at this offline and think about it.  ga
AFL GaryJ  Thanks, Hurlant.  Next question is from Marc (M Wolfgram).  GA, Marc
M Wolfgram Two quickies: How about changing C lint to gen warnings rather than
           errors on proto misses?  and...
M Wolfgram what about a pragma to generate NiftyList names in the front of
           function calls?
MikeW50    I'll think about warnings instead of errors.  Currently, the compiler
           doesn't
MikeW50    have warnings at all, but they wouldn't be hard to add, I suppose.
           Te current
MikeW50    compiler already supports a good debugging format; I don't expect to
           find the
MikeW50    time to support yet another one when there is no interest in
           standardization
Matt DTS   Mike, one doesn't preclude the other.
M Wolfgram I use both ORCA/Debugger and GSBug - both are indespensible... Names
           make GSBug alot more efficient. G
MikeW50    May be.  On the other hand, GSBug could support what we had in place
           long
MikeW50    before GSBug started using names.  I'm one person.  I'm willing to
           talk
MikeW50    standards, especially _before_ the products are released, but I can't
           keep
MikeW50    up with every Tom Dick and Dave comming up with a new debugging
           format and 
MikeW50    calling mechanism for every program that is released.  I've stopped
           trying.
MikeW50    If someone wants to coordinate a _standard_ with me, I'm all ears.
           Otherwise,
MikeW50    I frankly just don't have the time.  ga
Matt DTS   Apple proposed a standard in IIgs TN #103.  GSBug uses it.  It's not
           hard, especially given..
Matt DTS   ...that it's the only thing that's been proposed in four years.
Matt DTS   (sorry, I'm out of turn)
MikeW50    Matt, you might look at the old GEnie logs.  I tried.  Really.  And
           PRIZM
MikeW50    predates your tech note.  I also tried to coordinate a standard at
           the time
MikeW50    of the tech note, and was told that asm and high-level languages were
MikeW50    apparently not comnpatible.  I gave up.  ga
LL AndyW   I purchased C no more than 2 months ago.  Is there any update policy
           for
LL AndyW   those of us who'v made recent purchases?  I also have M, Debugger,
           LTP/C, etc..
LL AndyW   ga
MikeW50    Andy:  There hasn't been an update in the last two months, but when
           one is
MikeW50    made available, there will be an update policy.  ga
LL AndyW   Ok..  I must have misinterpreted some of what was being said as there
           being
LL AndyW   an update to at least one product.. ga
MikeW50    No, Andy, but I did mention that we're working towards several...
           including one
MikeW50    for C.  ga
LL AndyW   Ok..  BTW, I would like to see GSBug/NL debugging names in C too..
           done..
AFL GaryJ  There's a new programming course, Programming the Toolbox in C.... is
           that what
AFL GaryJ  you're thinking of, Andy?
LL AndyW   That's probably what I saw being mentioned..  It is something I'm
           interested
LL AndyW   in..  ga
LL AndyW   I'll wait for the flyer..
HURLANT    What are Names in GSBUG? Would they help with assembly? 
HURLANT    Is there a reference in the Orca/M 2.0 manual?
MikeW50    Yes, they could very well help in assembly.  In truth, that's what
           they
MikeW50    were designed for, and the fact that GSBug is for machine language,
           not 
MikeW50    high-level language like C or Pascal, is the main _technical_ reason
           why it's
MikeW50    a low priority for C and Pascal.  There are some nice macros to help
           put names
MikeW50    in your assembly language programs.  ga
AFL GaryJ  Do you have something to add to that, Andy?
LL AndyW   BRL  id bytes, pascal string...  Shows up as a routine name in
           GSBug..
LL AndyW   I do a lot of debugging C stuff using GSBug, and it would help..
           DONE..
AFL GaryJ  Ok, thanks.  Any follow up, Hurlant?
HURLANT    I just would like to see some post about this, if possible.
HURLANT    To demonstrate the principle.
LL AndyW   Check out Tech note #103..  (Apple //gs TN)..   done
MikeW50    It's not something I do a lot of.  Maybe a question in the ADV area
           would get 
MikeW50    some good samples. ga
AFC SteveB ::Putting Guitar Magazine aside::  Is there any way to
AFC SteveB do a brl to a label, and have that label be an ANOP? the 
AFC SteveB reason i ask is because I tried to create a GSBugName macro,
AFC SteveB and couldn't.  GA
MikeW50    Sure:
MikeW50       brl   lab1&syscnt
MikeW50       lab1&syscnt anop
MikeW50    would be pretty normal in a macro.  ga
AFC SteveB I think I tried that and it did something funky...I'll try
AFC SteveB it again and get back to you.  Thanks, GA
MikeW50    (actually, ~lab1&syscnt would be better...)
GNO Jawaid Since I'm terminally late, I hope y'all will forgive me if I asked
           something
GNO Jawaid someone else did- has anyone mentioned the "template" word in
           reference
GNO Jawaid to ORCA/Debugger?
GNO Jawaid (I was on the beta test list, but couldn't put in as much time as I'd
           have
GNO Jawaid liked.) GA
MikeW50    No.  I don't plan on adding them, either.  I do plan to add direct
           support
MikeW50    for struct, union and records, though, but that takes changes in the
           compilers.
MikeW50    That change is _very_ high on the wish list for both C and Pascal.
           ga
M Wolfgram [C first :)]
GNO Jawaid Yes, C first :) Okay, thanks.
HURLANT    Is an update to Prism in the works? (I have this editor OBSESSION!)
MikeW50    Yes.  PRIZM 2.0 is a part of the ORCA/C 2.0 project, which is what
           I'm working
MikeW50    on now.  ga
AFL GaryJ  Great!
AFL GaryJ  Steve, you're up again.  GA
AFC SteveB Does the label name ~lab1&syscnt mean anything special?  I mean...
AFC SteveB could I just do a brl ~bokchoy ... ~bokchoy ANOP ?  GA
MikeW50    ~ is treated as a character by the assembler, but labels starting
           with ~ are
MikeW50    reserved (by convention) for use in macros.  &syscnt is a counter
           that gives
MikeW50    unique numbers for each macro.  The lab1 part is purely made-up, and
           you can
MikeW50    use whatever you want.  ga
AFC SteveB Oh, cool!  :)  Thanks.  GA
AFL GaryJ  ~bokchoy&syscnt
AFL GaryJ  Ok, Let's see.... if I am not mistaken, the queue is empty..
AFC SteveB (:)  Cool...I read the manual over MANY times, but couldn't figure it
           out.)
HURLANT    I would like to state that I believe Quick Click would generate New
           respect
HURLANT    and interest in a GS. It is the weak link in available software for
           the GS.
HURLANT    And could be part of a wonderful package for schools.
MikeW50    I've had zero luck selling to schools -- and it's not because all of
           our
MikeW50    products are languages.  That doesn't mean we won't do products that
           have a use
MikeW50    in schools, but it does mean that I won't build a product around the
           idea that 
MikeW50    school purchases will make it worthwhile.  ga
MikeF32    When I talked to Mike at KFest, he wasn't too sure about continuing
MikeF32    I encouraged him, but there's some problems--you can't really do it
           all
MikeF32    with QuickDraw...and once you leave QuickDraw, you leave the print
           manager
MikeW50    Well-- other than rotated text, everything I wanted to do can be done
           in QD. ga
MikeF32    Rotated text is half the fun!
MikeW50    It would be there, too, but as rotated pixel maps.  QD can support
           that, but
MikeW50    the quality is not great.  ga
AFL GaryJ  Aspect ratio kind of messes things up.
MikeF32    So, you're actually going to finish the program then?
MikeW50    I haven't decided to finish QC Draw.  I also haven't decided not to.
           I won't
MikeW50    give it much though until C 2.0 and Pascal 2.0 ship.  At that time,
           I'll
MikeW50    balance it against all of the other possible products to see which
           looks best.
HURLANT    You had asked if anyone wants source to commercial grade programs.
           Maybe QC
HURLANT    could be released like that.
MikeW50    So far, though, QC Draw has lost to Toolbox Programming in Pascal,
           Toolbox
MikeW50    Programming in C, Programmer's Reference for System 6.0, C 2.0 and
           Pascal 2.0.
MikeW50    Maybe, Hurlant.  I;ve thought about that.  ga
HURLANT    It touches all important disciplines, would be excellent!
AFL GaryJ  Ok, let's go on to Jim's question.  GA, Jim
AFC DYAJim Right now, if I have an "&" in a line, even if it is in the COMMENT
           part,
AFC DYAJim after the 40th column, after a semicolon, etc, the assembler will
           still flag
AFC DYAJim it with some weird macro error (like undefined symbolic parameter or
           something.
AFC DYAJim ) but even though it's in a comment field.  any way around this?  i
           like
AFC DYAJim to abbreviate "and" :)
MikeW50    Yup.  That's a feature.  It lets you expand symbolic parameters, even
           in
MikeW50    comments and string constants.  To avoid the error, make sure there
           is at
MikeW50    least one space after the &.  ga
AFC DYAJim Okay.. thanks.. ga
AFL GaryJ  Anyone else have anything for Mike?
AFL GaryJ  I'd like to thank Mike for coming tonight too.  He does an excellent
AFL GaryJ  job of supporting the Apple II, especially the IIGS! 
MikeW50    Mark: GSBug can implement ORCA names, too.  It works either way.
Matt DTS   ORCA names are excessively complex and intrusive, and GSBug is not a
           symbolic high-level debugger
Matt DTS   (i.e., a competitor to ORCA/Debugger).  GSBug just wants to show you
           what routine name you're in.
Matt DTS   ORCA's format is way too much for that, and requires that the
           debugger be present or your
Matt DTS   program crashes.  This is not Apple's goal.  GA.
MikeW50    Ther's a debugger COP to do that, Matt.  There always has been.  It
           takes less
MikeW50    code than a BRL, too.  ga
Matt DTS   And so you crash without the debugger.  Ungood.
GNO Jawaid Apple could add COP trapping into the SS.
MikeW50    Not if you have a debugger -- e.g. GSBug -- installed.  Cool.  
Matt DTS   But if you don't, you're out of luck.  And if you forget and
           distribute the program, boom.
Matt DTS   And no ORCA/Debugger COP I've seen takes less memory than the IIgs TN
           #103 method.
MikeW50    True.  At least you get reminded to take the debug code out.
Matt DTS   There is room for two formats -- one for names and one for symbolics.
           Lots of people have asked for
Matt DTS   Plus a handler for the COP vector.
MikeW50    The name COP takes 2 bytes plus the name.
MikeW50    ...plus a checker for a BRL...
MikeW50    (shrug)  it works either way.
Matt DTS   Except that ORCA won't do the simple way and the hard way is past
           GSBug's charter.
LL AndyW   But if there's no BRL checker, there's no problem...
M Wolfgram Checkmate!
MikeW50    Simple and hard are in the eyes of the implementor, Matt.  I've
           _always_
MikeW50    been willing to coordinate, but I hate having stuff crammed down my
           throat
MikeW50    with no concessions to what I already have in place.  I don't really
           want
LL AndyW   if (COP & !checker) break;
MikeW50    this to become a huge issue, eiter, and I think I'm sort of making it
           one.
MikeW50    Sorry for that.
Matt DTS   You've been willing to -coordinate.-  You've been willing to expand
           ORCA's format, all very true.
Matt DTS   But people have been asking for a simple way to see names, to do a
           stack crawl in Nifty List or GSBug
Matt DTS   and just find out where the heck they _are_.  And you've not been
           willing to accept anything that's
Matt DTS   not a superset of the full symbolic debugging you arelady have.
MikeW50    I've been willing to _replace_ it, too, bit I didn't get a bite on
           replacing
MikeW50    i with something that would do what I needed for C and Pascal.  I
           tried that
MikeW50    when the GSBug issue first came up.
Matt DTS   On the Macintosh, it's like comparing Macsbug names to source-level
           debugging symbolics.
Matt DTS   I know that Apple is still open to expanding the non-intrusive
           format, but Apple (whom I'm not
Matt DTS   speaking for, in case anyone forgets) won't adopt any intrusive
           format that requires a debugger's
Matt DTS   presence for the code to run normally.  Anyway, I've said my piece,
           and there's a real question
Matt DTS   here.
MikeW50    :)  I dunno.  This is becomming something I don't want it to be.  How
           about
MikeW50    we talk about it some other time, in another format?
AFL GaryJ  Sounds fine with me :)  Let's let Jim ask his question.  GA, Jim
AFC DYAJim I don't know if this has been addressed yet tonight, and I know how
           massivly
AFC DYAJim overworked Mike probably is trying to update and maintain and
           introduce a
AFC DYAJim zillion different programs..  BUT..
AFC DYAJim when will we see an update for orca 2.0 that addresses many of it's
           bugs/etc?
AFC DYAJim I notice that it has a nasty habit to overwrite random memory
           locations with
AFC DYAJim expanded pathnames that you COPY'd into your ASM files.  And this has
           also
AFC DYAJim happened to other people I know, so it's not an isolated incident.
           Sometimes
AFC DYAJim it overwrites right into the middle of code (crash), sometimes it
           overwrites
AFC DYAJim my desktop picture and I see a line of garbage that if I view in
           ascii is
AFC DYAJim an expanded pathname of a COPY'd file, and sometimes it overwrites
           unused
AFC DYAJim memory locations.  it's weird.
MikeW50    Bug fixes for the 2.0 environment are part of the C 2.0 update.
           Assembler
MikeW50    bugs will be fixed shortly thereafter.  It's worth pointing out that
           while
AFC DYAJim also - to be quick, often the source code editor will hang if you try
           to
AFC DYAJim insert a blank line at the VERY beginning of a source file, IF there
           is
AFC DYAJim not already a blank line at the top of the file.  so if I have a
           source file
AFC DYAJim that the first three lines of it contain valid ascii data (and not
           just CR's)
AFC DYAJim and I try to insert a CR at the start of the file, the editor will
           almost
AFC DYAJim surely hang.
MikeW50    I think I know what is causig the problem you mentioned, I haven't
           gotten a
MikeW50    single bug report that shows a problem with COPY.
AFC DYAJim (I will tell a couple people I know who also saw it to report it
           Mike..:)
MikeW50    Bugs will be fixed.  Be sure you report them, though, and somewhere
           other than
MikeW50    here.  I don't have logs turned on, and I need enough info to
           _duplicate_ a
MikeW50    problem before I can be sure I have fixed it.  ga
AFC DYAJim neatly enough, I have discovered a way to fix this with GSBug...
AFC DYAJim I can hop into the editor's code where it is doing an infinite loop,
           skip
AFC DYAJim one line where it compares a character from a [dp] buffer to see if
           it's a CR,
AFC DYAJim and then the hang will go away and dump me back into the editor.  i
           can give
AFC DYAJim full info, including what to skip over in gsbug if you like.
AFC DYAJim this occurs almost surely if I try to insert a cr at the beginning of
           a
AFC DYAJim croweded file.
MikeW50    Jim, just send me the info to duplicate the problem.  If you want to
           send
MikeW50    something else, great.  ga
AFC DYAJim I have discovered a very peculiar oddity in orca/m..
AFC DYAJim For my CDev, I have found out that there is some line (which
           eventually I
AFC DYAJim will trace) in apple's standard e16.equate file that totally makes
           orca puke.
AFC DYAJim For instance.
AFC DYAJim (e16.equate = e16.event)
AFC DYAJim if I "copy 2/ainclude/e16.event" in my cdev and compile it, orca does
           something
AFC DYAJim very weird to the object.  when I open up my CDev, after the CDev is
           opened,
AFC DYAJim and the window is ONSCREEN, I get a duplicate redundant "Application
           cannot
AFC DYAJim be found for this document" dialog.  This is after it just opened up
           the CDev.
AFC DYAJim I spent a long time pulling my hair out trying to figure out what I
           changed to
AFC DYAJim and it wound up being the whole event equate file.
MikeW50    Jim, please.  I'm happy to fix bugs, and happy to take bug reports,
           but NOT
MikeW50    HERE!!!!  I don't have logs on!  I'm going to miss what you're trying
           to tell
MikeW50    me.  Send in to me in an e-mail, and I'll be sure to get it logged
           and fixed.
AFC DYAJim Alright, but I"m going to finish.
AFC DYAJim (and the log of this chat will be available in ADV)
AFC DYAJim To sum up>
AFC DYAJim If I copy the e16.equates file, I get the redundant message, because
           somehow
AFC DYAJim orca compiles it differently.
AFC DYAJim If I manually cut the lines I need from the e16.events file and paste
           them
AFC DYAJim into my source w/o the copy, orca compiles it right, and the EXACT
           same source
AFC DYAJim is made into a program that doesn't produce the redundant message.
AFC DYAJim This has been present for as long as I can remember, way back from
           1.2.
AFC DYAJim (completely WEIRD)
LL AndyW   When will REZ/DeRez be fixed to shut down the resource manager on
           errors? Matt?
MikeW50    I think it has been.  I didn't send out ORCA/M 2.0 updates with the
           latest
MikeW50    GSBug and Rez, yet, because I expect to have an update to some other
           stuff in
MikeW50    ORCA/M in a few weeks, and I get a lot of flak if I release updates
           too often.
MikeW50    ga
LL AndyW   I didn't update to 2.0, I bought it when it was released..
MikeW50    The bug fix was fairly recent... after the ORCA/M 2.0 release.  It
           will be in
MikeW50    ORCA/M 2.1. ga
GNO Jawaid What do y'all think of the idea of a new tool call to simply check
           for the
GNO Jawaid presence of a keystroke?  The SS has never, ever supported this
           (outside
GNO Jawaid the Event Manager, which some people rightfully don't want to support
           in
GNO Jawaid text mode).
GNO Jawaid As long as the SS doesn't have a call to do that (through TextTools,
           say)
GNO Jawaid folks are going to have trouble with >$E0C000 apps running under GNO.