America Online APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG Tuesday, November 3, 1992 (Election Day!) 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time Topic: IIGS Toolbox Programming and Politics Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFL GaryJ) AFL GaryJ Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum! AFL GaryJ Tonight, our topic, should you decide to accept it, is Apple IIGS Toolbox Programming! AFL GaryJ So, if you have any questions/comments/gripes, whatever, about the AFL GaryJ Apple IIGS Toolbox, this is the night to discuss them! Sheppy The IIGS Toolbox kicks butt! Toolbox for President '96!!!!! Sheppy ... er, sorry. :) Sheppy ... a touch carried away... AFL GaryJ I actually wrote that in today. Developer1 NO WAY? AFL GaryJ Apple IIGS Toolbox for president! It was better than the other choices :) AFL GaryJ (nah :) AFA Jay So who did all eligible voters vote for? I'm not eligible :) AFL Marty <- Perot Sheppy I voted for Perot. AFC DYAJim I would have voted for Perot. AFC DYAJim And another thing to consider: Bush would probably have won (IMO) if not for AFC DYAJim Perot. AFA Jay I would have voted Perot too. Developer1 I would have voted for Perot. Developer1 my parents voted for clinton! TRADERS! ACK ACK! Developer1 they were rooting for perot until the last damn moment. Sheppy Hmmm... too bad we ain't the majority of the American people. We'd-a done Sheppy good!! :) AFL GaryJ :) AFC DYAJim Perot can take over AO Developer1 HA! AFA Jay Well, it looks like Slick Willie... AFA Jay President Willie Clinton :) Sheppy If Perot doesn't win, I hope Bush does. Sigh. Developer1 bush? bush isn't better than clinton! AFL GaryJ Well, that's why I voted for Bush, myself. It was more of a matter of AFL GaryJ voting against Clinton. Developer1 gary why not perot? AFC DYAJim voting for perot is kind of a wasted vote; AFA Jay AHH! AFA Jay DON'T SAY THAT! AFC DYAJim for if he can't win, you're allowing clinton to take bush. AFC DYAJim even tho I wish Perot would have won. AFA Jay waste of a vote, stupidity! Developer1 no not really. if he get's a strong percent, it sends a message out. Sheppy I'm not gonna vote a certain way just because somebody says they know how Sheppy the vote'll turn out. That's stupid. I'm gonna vote for what I believe in. Developer1 i couldn't agree more! DanP18 Has anyone done any ORCA/Disasm work on the tools? I would be DanP18 interested in the templates. Sheppy Hmmm... templates for the tools? Sheppy I've started disassembling a few, but didn't get very far. AFL GaryJ I know someone who has, Dan, but that kind of stuff is supposed to be AFL GaryJ either not done (per the Apple agreements), or for personal use. Sheppy Anyway... if you find those templates, let me know. I'd like to see them. DanP18 There plenty of prior work that prevents them from backing up that DanP18 part of the license. AFL GaryJ It's true, Dan, that people do it openly it all the time, but it's that kind of AFL GaryJ agreement that prevents people from distributing the results of their labors. Sheppy BTW: Have you downloaded the new templates for tools from the BW area here? AFC DYAJim what kind of templates Eric? DanP18 6.0 templates? Sheppy Oh, sorry. It's a set of _scripts_ for System 6 tool call recognition -- not Sheppy disassemblies, though. Phrasing error in line 329383. :) AFC DYAJim I got the new prototyped C toolbox headers if that's what you mean.. Sheppy No, I mean Orca/Disassembler scripts. I have the new C headers too -- very Sheppy nice, but buggy here and there. Sheppy (not too bad, though -- I've found two mistakes). AFC DYAJim oh, I don't have orca/disassembler. AFC DYAJim what mistakes did you find? i want to fix them Sheppy Sure: check out the prototype for _SetOutGlobals and _GetWMgrPort. Those Sheppy are incorrect. Sheppy _SetOutGlobals should accept a single word parameter. Sheppy _GetWMgrPort doesn't take any inputs. (I think those are the problems). DanP18 My perspective is: I have something that isn't explained or doesnt work DanP18 as advertised. Apple wont help. What do I do? AFC DYAJim what are you referring to, exactly, Dan? AFL GaryJ Yes DanP18 HS.FST AFC DYAJim What is wrong with the HS.FST, Dan? DanP18 It won't mount disks that are near the maximum size of a cd-rom. AFC DYAJim File a bug report to Apple.. DanP18 I did that. AFL GaryJ Have you tested the same CD-Rom on other Apple IIGS systems? DanP18 no. I tested it on an HP work station, a Mac, and an IBM. AFL GaryJ Is this an Apple II CD-Rom? (I know you've talked about this before, but I don't AFL GaryJ remember the particulars) DanP18 I wrote my own little program to read the disc, and it works too. AFC DYAJim Gary; if it were an A2 CD-ROm I don't think it would be High Sierra format :) DanP18 they are ISO9660 discs. AFL GaryJ Well, what I mean is, was it intended to be read by an Apple II. (Yes, I know, dumb question :) AFL Marty (Didn't sound dumb to me) DanP18 They were meant to be read by systems that say they can read ISO9660. AFL GaryJ I remember now. AFC DYAJim how did you report it to Apple, Dan? DanP18 internet to bug.reports@apple. DanP18 (or something like that) AFC DYAJim (apple.bugs@apple then I take it) DanP18 that was it. DanP18 I know I'm beating a dead horse, but I paid big $$$ for an Apple cdrom, DanP18 an apple scsi card, and the cd-roms I bought it *specifically* for DanP18 won't mount. AFC DYAJim Which CD-ROMs are these? I might be interested, should it get fixed (and it AFC DYAJim probably will; it's just a matter of when :) Matt DTS Dan: You reported a bug. There's been no new releases since then, so _amazingly_ enough the Matt DTS bug is not yet fixed. There's not a whole lot more for me to say. DanP18 save your sarcasm. AFC DYAJim read: wait 'till 6.0.1 then complain more (at leat in my interpretation :) AFL GaryJ Sounds like that to me too, Jim. Matt DTS I don't know if the bugs have been fixed. I know that they're not super-high priority, because Matt DTS everything Apple finds says that High Sierra is not a high priority, and that it _mostly_ works. If Matt DTS it's reasonably easy enough, it will be fixed promptly. If it would require rearchitecting the Matt DTS FST, it might never be fixed. AFL GaryJ But if I'm reading you right, Matt, "promptly" means that it might get AFL GaryJ fixed, but it obviously won't be apparent until the next System Software release. DanP18 Matt, based on my research, I don't think it can be fixed without re- DanP18 architexting the FST. AFC DYAJim What CDs are these Dan? DanP18 jim, it is any cd-rom that is over a certain size. The largest i could mount DanP18 is 540k. AFC DYAJim That's not what I mean, Dan :) I'm looking for some good CDs to use with my AFC DYAJim drive.. I was wondering if yours might be interesting to me DanP18 jim, check out the offerings from Walnut Creek CDROM. I can get you the DanP18 address if you like. DanP18 Do you know anything about the "Can't Italicize > 64 points" bug? DanP18 Think it will be fixed? ga. AFL GaryJ Is that in fact a "bug" or a current "feature"? Matt DTS I've heard of that, but I don't know what causes it. That's all I know. DanP18 thanks. AFL GaryJ That was quick :) DanP18 I have a hard disk drive, that when I use the standard format dialogs, DanP18 in adv.disk.util or finder, after low level initialization drops off line DanP18 so that file system level formatting fails. Is the offline after low- DanP18 level format a bug in my drive, or something the scsi driver is not DanP18 handling correctly? ga. AFL GaryJ Dan, is this in a program you are writing? (I'm trying to figure out AFL GaryJ where the standard format dialogs are coming from) DanP18 no. They come from the drivers and gsos. AFL GaryJ Yes, but is this in Finder, or a program you are writing, or both? DanP18 no. Finder and adv.disk.util. AFL GaryJ Ah. Yes, you said that :) DanP18 However, any program that uses the standard format method will cause me DanP18 to have the problem. DanP18 BTW: i got around it by using the Exerciser and doing it manually. AFL GaryJ That was going to be my next question. :) DanP18 BTWBTW: the drive is a bernoulli mac transportable. AFC DYAJim I thought it only would work with the ramfast. Neat. DanP18 90 fast megs. It's goes good with my 12 mhz zip card. (gloat, gloat) AFL GaryJ I don't know the answer, Dan (bug in drive or bug in SCSI driver) Matt DTS Dan: I don't know. SCSI drives are notoriously less-standard than they claim. DanP18 thanks. AFL GaryJ :) AFL GaryJ Ok, let's get on to Jim's generic GS question. AFC DYAJim When you're in a program that uses monochrome DHR and enter the control panel AFC DYAJim and exit, the DHR isn't restored right and you're put into monochrome DHR AFC DYAJim messed up so that it has no clarity and instead has random multicolors. AFC DYAJim (in the outline of the previously black areas on screen.) AFC DYAJim This has been around for as long as I can remember, but I completely forgot AFL GaryJ Have to change the monochrome CP setting. AFC DYAJim about it until I was at a friend's today using his ROM03 with Publishit 4. AFC DYAJim ohh yeah, that sounds familiar :) I've forgotten. why can't it do it AFC DYAJim automatically? AFL GaryJ Probably because the program set's the monochrome mode, but not in the AFL GaryJ battery RAM, so that when you enter the CP and then exit, it resets AFL GaryJ everything. AFL Marty There's no way to tell if the graphic is color or monochrome. BCS Frank Could you count up the colors in the graphics? AFC DYAJim Why can't the control panel save it and then restore it when you exit? Sheppy Which is, of course, correct behavior. But the CP should preserve the Sheppy setting. Sheppy (IMHO) DanP18 that would make it hard for the CP to tell what you want changed when DanP18 you make a CP change AFL GaryJ Not necessarily true (that the CP should preserve the setting) AFL Marty PI4 is also an 8 bit program. I doubt they took the time to check AFL Marty whether it's running on a GS. AFL GaryJ If you change a border color, for example, by storing a value into the border AFL GaryJ color register, and then go into the CP and come out, the border color is AFL GaryJ reset to the CP setting border color. AFC DYAJim alright.. fine :) AFL GaryJ But, I agree, it's a pain :) Sheppy Well... I think that's wrong too. :) AFL GaryJ I understand your point, Sheppy. AFL GaryJ But, you must also consider the other point of view.... AFL GaryJ If a user sets up the CP settings like he wants them (such as the border color) AFL GaryJ and a program changes them on him (to something he can't stand), then AFL GaryJ he would not be able to rectify the situation :) AFL GaryJ In other words, CP settings are for the user to set his computer up the AFL GaryJ way he wants it, and not the way the programmer wants it. DanP18 When formatting under adv.disk.util, for HFS partitions, it tries to load DanP18 some code to make the partion usable by a mac, then says it can't DanP18 find them. What are they, and are they released to the public? Matt DTS It's looking for a special file to put a Macintosh driver on there. However, Apple doesn't have a Matt DTS "generic" SCSI driver for the Macintosh (where all drive makers have to provide their own drivers), Matt DTS though one was at one time projected. So the capability was built into ADU even though it never Matt DTS came through. GA. DanP18 thanks. M Wolfgram I formatted a 600mb Wren V on a Mac Plus... a bunch of 32mb partitions and several larger ones... M Wolfgram Then I moved the drive to the GS and "erased" the 32mb partitions to ProDOS... The drive boots on the M Wolfgram GS and I imagine I could install System 7 on the first Mac partition on the HFS partitions and boot on M Wolfgram the Mac too. GA DanP18 Are there any plans for boot blocks and a prodos (or rather hfs) boot loader DanP18 to boot the gs from a hfs partition? ga. Matt DTS Not at this time. Fixing bugs is a higher priority at the current moment, as is shipping Ethernet. DanP18 Thanks. DanP18 The instructions for making a foreign file system boot for the gs were DanP18 published in the gsos beta, but aren't in the 6.0 docs. Is this still DanP18 Authorized info? Matt DTS It's not guaranteed, but it's still mostly accurate. AFL GaryJ That's kinda like "mostly dead", isn't it? :) DanP18 I meant, are we still allowed to do it, or is it restricted, like fst DanP18 internals. DanP18 and unsupported. ga. Matt DTS You weren't ever allowed to do it -- that's why it was removed from the final documentation. DanP18 Thanks.