America Online APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG Tuesday, November 24, 1992 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time Topic: Deubgging Your Software! Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFL GaryJ) AFL GaryJ Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum! AFL GaryJ Tonight, our scheduled topic is Debugging your Software. AFL GaryJ We can talk about specific debugging problems that you may (or may not) have, AFL GaryJ or we can talk about the nifty tools that IIGS users have to debug their AFL GaryJ software, like GSBug, and Nifty List. Matt DTS Dave feels qualified, because he's been Debugging Your Software for years. Sheppy Yes He Has. AFL GaryJ Matt :) AFL GaryJ True statement. AFL GaryJ I guess when Dave gets done with 6.01, all the tools will be "nifty" tools? :) AFL GaryJ Does anyone have a specific question or comment that they'd like to start off with this evening? DanP18 Are there any other debuggers available, than GSBug and Orca/Debugger? JWankerl There's ProDEV's DDT 16. Sheppy Why? Aren't those enough? :) DanP18 No. AFL GaryJ Yes, ProDEV DDT (hardware device) DanP18 Where can I get info on ProDEV DDT? AFL GaryJ What are you lacking, Dan? AFL GaryJ Why do you feel you need more? JWankerl Probably in the ProDEV area - don't they have one here on AOL? Maybe in hardware... AFL GaryJ I have some info somewhere. They used to have a folder in our boards, AFL GaryJ but it hasn't had any activity in a while. DanP18 I have had problems using Orca/debugger (some bugs I guess), DanP18 and I don't like the GSBug interface very much. JWankerl I've found that GSBug is generally superior to the DDT in most cases, though. AFL GaryJ I've tried the ProDEV DDT, and I must agree with Joe. Sheppy GSBug works fine for me, 95% of the time. AFL GaryJ I find GSBug to be more than sufficient for my needs. But, I am intrigued by AFL GaryJ Dan's concerns. DanP18 I can usually get what I want with GSBug, but I find it painful. JWankerl Er... what pains you, Dan? DanP18 I suppose it's just a matter of taste. AFL GaryJ Can you be more specific, Dan? Sheppy Between GSBug, NL, and Orca/Disassembler, I can work out pretty much every- Sheppy thing. Sheppy Everything else is a serious pain in the neck. DanP18 No, not really. You either like using something, or you don't. I don't like DanP18 GSBug. JWankerl You can always write your own, Dan... :-) DanP18 Sure. Right after I write my disassembler, my FST, my compiler, my DanP18 resource editor, and my game. Sheppy Oooh. Don't say "write my own FST" around the Apple dudes! :) AFL GaryJ Well, I certainly respect opinions, likes/dislikes. JWankerl Don't you think you'd be better off writing it FIRST? :-) AFL GaryJ Yeah, a debugger might be helpful *first* :) DanP18 Where's the challenge in that }:) AFL GaryJ Have you been using GSBug very long? Very much? Is it a matter AFL GaryJ of getting used to the interface, or is it just that you plain don't like it? DanP18 I have had copies of GSBug for a while now. I've used it in tracking DanP18 system problems, and tracing my code. It's not that it doesn't work, DanP18 I just don't like usinmg it. AFL GaryJ I mean, people have preferences for wordprocessors - may of which have identical AFL GaryJ functions. But the differences are in interface, key commands, etc. What one is AFL GaryJ used to using. AFA Jay The one thing I'd like to see in GSBug is either a settbrk ALL or like while AFA Jay your stepping have a key like r that will trace until the next toolbox call Sheppy Tool error breaks. Sheppy (would be nice) AFA Jay yah, have it stop when a toolcall doesn't return 0. Sheppy Jay: carry set, you mean... probably safer. AFA Jay ok, sure :) AFL GaryJ I just want a debugger that can read my mind :) (But, that's another programming project altogether) WinkieJim How about a debugger that find bugs automaticaly and fixes them for you :) DanP18 ? for apple guys: any changes to GSBug in the pipe? Dave Lyons ! Dave Lyons In recent history, I'm the DebugMeister...I've been doing the GSBug Dave Lyons changes since about 1.5b9. Certainly there are Dave Lyons changes in the pipe, but nothing huge at the moment. There are about 80 bugs & enhancement Dave Lyons requests in our bug database. Sheppy Oof! Fun, fun, fun. Dave Lyons Yes, tool error breaks used to be in there--they were kind of weird & did not work for calls Dave Lyons made through the "glue" vector that a lot of compilers use. Dave Lyons (The error breaks were incompatible with certain kinds of tail patches, too, since they stole one Dave Lyons of the two return addresses.) Sheppy Ah, so. Still... they would be extremely useful. AFC DYAJim GSBug should properly list addresses you have set bp's on when you "l" them, AFC DYAJim instead of showing the brk inserted :) but this is minor, I admit :) Dave Lyons Oh, forgot to mention that the code for error breaks was kind of converted into the support Dave Lyons for OS breaks (by my predecessor). ga AFL GaryJ Thanks, Dave Sheppy I knew that, actually. I think it's mentioned in some note I saw somewhere. :) JasonD123 Dave Lyons?I've heard a lot about you. Sheppy [chuckle] AFL GaryJ Yeah, he's famous :) Sheppy A legend. AFL GaryJ He's the real one, too. AFA Jay good things, Jason? ;) Matt DTS You wanna hear more about him? Just ask. :) JasonD123 Yeah AFL GaryJ LOL jay :) Spottysoft [Who _is_ that guy??? :)] WinkieJim Jason, shhh, you'll inflate his head JasonD123 You working on 6.01, Dave? Sheppy Hmmm. Notice how quiet they get when the praise is poured on. Hmph. :) AFL GaryJ Jason, our topic tonight is "Debugging your software". We were discussing AFL GaryJ GSBug. We can have some off-topic questions/comments if they come up too. WinkieJim Okay, I've got a game that I'm having problems installing a font directly into quickdraw WinkieJim No font manager, plus the font can't be in the fonts folder. AFC DYAJim What part are you having difficulty with? WinkieJim I use SetFont using an handle to the font loded from disk, but it either doens't WinkieJim draw the charaters or draws big boxes with garbage in them. AFC DYAJim You have to strip off the pstring title from the beginning of the font file AFC DYAJim before passing it to SetFont. AFA Jay Make sure you use SetBufDims also. Sheppy Yeah, the name of the family doesn't count as part of the font. AFA Jay if you look in the $C8 technote, it says that :) WinkieJim Thanks. I thought it would be somethign easy AFL GaryJ BTW: A2 Ellen is Ellen Rosenberg, the Editor of A2-Central (we have lots of famous people here AFL GaryJ tonight) AFL GaryJ (Welcome, Ellen!) AFL Marty Hi Ellen :) A2 Ellen Thanks, Gary. I think. Sheppy Ooooh. Not just brilliant, but important, too. ;) A2 Ellen (It was more fun last night in the games forum when I asked a question about... A2 Ellen OOTW working from my hard drive at work but not from home. I said that I'd just A2 Ellen have to play at work under the pretense of writing a review. People told me.. A2 Ellen to try Incider, or II ALive... AFL GaryJ Ok, I think Dan had the next official question in the queue. GA, Dan DanP18 What is the official GS debugging env at apple? I am also interested in DanP18 everyone elses setup. GA. AFL GaryJ Probably something under MPW, Dan Sheppy GSBug and logic probes, probably. :) Dave Lyons Dan, for my debugging I use Nifty List, GSBug, GS/OS Snooper, Dave Lyons and a logic analyzer. ga LL AndyW I use GSBug and ORCA/Debugger... I also have a ProDev DDT-16 board.. LL AndyW ga LL AndyW Oh, I forgot about NL.. JWankerl I use GSBug and Nifty List. And a bit of ORCA/Debugger - and ORCA/Disassembler when JWankerl ORCA/Shell munches my source code, as it has been so apt to do this week. :-( Dave Lyons (Oh, and I left out System Source Code! :-) Sheppy Yes, the source code must make it easier, Dave. :) Matt DTS I use GSBug, ORCA/Debugger (marginally), Nifty List, snooper, Exerciser and lotsa RAM. LL AndyW What's GS/OS snooper Dave? Sheppy Exerciser! That's seriously useful! JWankerl Oh yeah, I forgot the Exerciser DA! AFL GaryJ GSBug/Nifty List here. (They go hand in hand) LL AndyW You bet, especially for those that don't close resource forks (REZ/DEREZ!!!!) Russell12 Hello! AFL GaryJ Hi Russell Russell12 .... I have a major problem!!! Russell12 .... I need help... please?? AFL GaryJ What can we help you with, Russell? Russell12 ... I just got a TransWarp GS Russell12 major problems Russell12 Well... I installed it (it's installed now).. and Russell12 When I boot up I can't load System 6 anymore LL AndyW Are you using a RamFast?? Russell12 No Ramfast.... Russell12 The red bar gets filled indicating it's loaded... then the computer hangs LL AndyW That means almost nothing as the thermometer isn't controlled by what's loaded. Russell12 The only way I can reboot is by turning off the power and back on again Russell12 ... If I use or I get a text Russell12 screen AFA Jay try OA-Option-Control-Reset :) Sheppy Yeah, once the thermometer starts, nothing short of armageddon will stop it. AFA Jay you can crash and it'll keep on going happily :) Sheppy Did you double-check the cable connection? Russell12 Yes.. I checked.... Russell12 ok... Matt DTS SEI is short of Armageddon, Eric. :) Sheppy Well... that depends on your interpretation of Armageddon, Matt. :) Russell12 hmmm... I crash out of the control panel into the monitor Russell12 ... when I stay there for too long AFL Marty Have you tried holding the shift key down while booting? Russell12 no... what's that do? LL AndyW No Init's/DA's.. AFL GaryJ Removes Inits/DA's AFL GaryJ That is, it loads without them. AFL GaryJ (doesn't "remove" them :) Russell12 I don't think I have any Init's or DA's (whatever they are) Sheppy Um, anything interesting connected to your system? LL AndyW You'd better have some of them... Russell12 I have AE Sonic Blaster Stereo card in slot 1 Russell12 I have Transwarp in slot 3 Russell12 and the rest are empty Russell12 ... oops.. I have a QRAM-GS in the memory expansion slot Sheppy Ah. Um, is the TWGS new? Sheppy (or used) LL AndyW If the cable is long enough, move the TW to slot 4 and try again.. AFL GaryJ Could be anything... how old of a TW is this? Russell12 .. I got it from another guy.. he says it's new AFL GaryJ (What Sheppy said :) DanP18 Did you disable the 80 col text card slot? LL AndyW That doesn't matter Dan.. DanP18 (you shouldn't) Sheppy Hmmm. Ah. Well, slot 3 should still be set to "80 column firmware" or what- James S WI It does if you want to use 80 column text. Sheppy ever. AFL GaryJ Hmm.... lost him. AFL GaryJ Must be the TW :) Sheppy Ah, well. AFA Jay Built-in Text Display, it says :) Sheppy That's the one. Never touch it. WinkieJim Same program, when the program is launched the system sets up a dp/stack space at 0/1000, $0800 long. WinkieJim but the stack pointer is set to $1800 thus having one byte outside of it's area. Causeing trouble when WinkieJim the toolsets get some space at $1800. WinkieJim any ideas what might cause this? I've worked around it by decrementing the stack pointer. Matt DTS Jim: Who's launching the program? LL AndyW You aren't saving your SP before starting the tool.. WinkieJim Launching right out of Merlin 16+ Matt DTS There ya go. :) Matt DTS Try launching it from the Finder and seeing if you have the same problem. AFA Jay :) A2 Ellen He speaks. WinkieJim Had a feeling that might be it.. Sheppy Heh, heh, heh... AFL GaryJ Well, that was easy enough :) AFL GaryJ (Easy for Matt to say, anyway :) AFL GaryJ Thank you, Matt Russell12 hi again.. sorry.. I crashed into the monitor again Russell12 ... slot 3 is set to Built-In text display... thanks Russell12 I rebooted with SHIFT key... didn't change a thing :( Russell12 .. any other suggestions ? Sheppy How much memory, Russell. You say you have 1600K RAMdisk. Russell12 .. I have 4MB of RAM.. I allocated 1.6 MB for a RAM disk AFA Jay Russell, go into your CDAs (if it won't crash)... AFA Jay and go into the TWGS CDA and read the version number from the bottom AFA Jay of the screen. LL AndyW You might want to shut it off while you're there so you can stay online.. LL AndyW The TW that is.. AFL GaryJ Russell, did you see what Jay said? He wants you to check the version AFL GaryJ number on the TW. (In the CDA menu) AFA Jay it should say "Transwarp GS Verison ____" then on the next line "Revision ____" Russell12 ok.. sorry.. missed it... brb Russell12 .. ok.. TransWarp version 8S, revision 1.5w (c) 1989 AFA Jay That's the same one I have, works fine. Sheppy That's the version I have. Russell12 oh... I just have all the luck.. darn AFA Jay ok, that's two...it's not the version of your TWGS at least. Sheppy What's the AppleTalk IRQ set to (out of curiousity, mostly)? Russell12 hm.. one sec Russell12 ... it's set to ON... Russell12 I tried it ON and OFF... neither worked :( Sheppy I haven't the faintest idea, Russell. Very strange. AFA Jay Did you try taking your Sonic Blaster out? Sheppy Might give it a try, even though there shouldn't be a problem, ya never know. Russell12 yes.. I remove the Sonic Blaster and it didn't change things Sheppy Oh. A2 Ellen Russell, a very low level attempt here but have you tried something as simple a A2 Ellen reinstalling the system software? AFL Marty Russell... check the connection where the TWGS plugs into the socket. Russell12 The replacement for the CPU? Sheppy You might also try pushing all the chips and stuff down into their sockets. Russell12 no... I haven't.. does it matter? Sheppy They come loose sometimes. AFL Marty Yeah... where the cable plugs in. Russell12 I made sure it was snug. AFL Marty It's worth one more check. Some of them work loose pretty easily. Sheppy You might check all the other connections (chip sockets and stuff), Russell. Russell12 ... if that's the case.. then would the computer operate like now? AFL Marty Also check drive cable connections. AFL GaryJ Could be marginal, Russell, just like you describe. AFA Jay Ellen had a good idea, try getting a clean copy of everything. AFL Marty Intermittent problems are sometimes caused by bad connections. Sheppy It happens, Russell. My crystal falls out of the socket if I move my computer, Sheppy but it still works. :) Sheppy Yes, that's a good one, too. Re-install the OS. Russell12 ok... I guess I'll try it.... AFA Jay and make sure the disks you have for the system software are good. Russell12 ... what about the lock? AFA Jay Control-Reset really doesn't fix much :) Russell12 ..... The apple flies across the screen and back... AFL GaryJ If that doesn't work, Russell, try posting a question about this in Apple II Hardware Forum AFL GaryJ (keyword AHW) Russell12 .. If I press it still goes... but not in mousetext AFA Jay If you really wanna get a good reboot, try OA-Control-Option-Reset :) LL AndyW Do Ctrl-OA-Option-Reset follwed by Ctrl-Reset.. AFL GaryJ Ok, WinkieJim, did you get your problem solved? (Not sure where we left that) WinkieJim Well, finder did it too! Matt DTS Use dumpobj to see if you have a stack/DP segment in your program. Do you? AFL GaryJ Finder did it too, Winkie? (Still not done with Winkie, too :) WinkieJim Is dump bj a Merlin command or APW? LL AndyW APW Sheppy APW. Matt DTS dumpobj is an APW tool. LL AndyW (or ORCA) Matt DTS It shows you the OMF in your object files or in your linked program. LL AndyW Jim, use the flags -o and -s for dumpobj. It'll give you the name and type LL AndyW of each segment (much faster than the default).. WinkieJim Well, Dumpobj in orca only shows one segment LL AndyW What kind Jim? Matt DTS What kind of program is your program? Application? WinkieJim Kind=$1000 (code) LL AndyW Jim, what's the segment type and attributes? WinkieJim Yup, appliation LL AndyW OMF version? WinkieJim code,staic,no special WinkieJim $02 Matt DTS And you double-click it in the Finder and your stack pointer points to $1800 while your DP is at $800? WinkieJim Matt, yes. So to first byte I push to the stack get's clobbered when the block at $1800 is alocated WinkieJim (by QD I think) Matt DTS LL AndyW Jim, do you have GSBug installed? Dave Lyons WJ, do you have a stack/dp segment linked into your application? LL AndyW If so, put a BRK 00 at the very beginning, and run it.. LL AndyW See what GSBug reports as the DP and SP.. LL AndyW Before you set anything else up.. WinkieJim Yes I do have GSBug, and it says $1800 sp and $800 DP LL AndyW This is from both Merlin and Finder? WinkieJim yup LL AndyW Sounds almost like the loader is corrupted.. LL AndyW Try quitting out of everything, back to the GS/OS launcher, and try it from LL AndyW there.. (no Finder, No Merlin, no nothing).. WinkieJim Starting up from a floopy right now... Dave Lyons If there's no stack/dp segment, the loader returns 0 for the stack/dp address and stack/dp size, Dave Lyons and it's up to the caller to provide a default-sized segment. That would be either Dave Lyons GSBug or a shell or GQuit (in the case of the Finder or whoever quitting to the app). Dave Lyons So trying LOAD from GSBug doesn't establish much. LL AndyW I thought GS/OS set the DP/Stack, and provided 4k.. LL AndyW If there was no DP/Stack segment.. Matt DTS It does if you're an application and there is no stack/DP segment. WinkieJim Andy, that's always been my assumption too Matt DTS Dave: GQuit provides the default segment if there isn't one. Not the code that calls GQuit. LL AndyW I never said anything about loading it from GSBug.. WinkieJim Well, the clean sys6.0 system disk did the same thing....$800 dp, $1800 sp WinkieJim 7/8B34. Matt DTS I'm trying something but I crashed my system. Rebooting. Dave Lyons Matt, that's what I said. I was talking about the Loader, and "the caller" [of the loader], which Dave Lyons is GQuit. Matt DTS Oh. Well, try to be a bit more obscure next time. We almost understood you. :-P AFL GaryJ Matt :) Matt DTS Jim, it doesn't happen for me. I just replaced the first code byte of GSHK with a $00 (that's the byt Matt DTS byte at file offset $2A1, normally a PHK) and I broke before any code executed. I have a direct Matt DTS page register of $0B00 and a stack pointer of $1AFF. LL AndyW Got another suggestion... LL AndyW Go into NL, and see what memory is actually allocated to your app (1000i) Dave Lyons I checked the source code, and the system is doing it right: S=start+length-1, whether you have a Dave Lyons stack/dp segment linked in or not (when not, it allocates a 4K handle and treats it the same). WinkieJim My app get's a handle at $800 that is $1000 long Matt DTS No code has yet been executed. Are you sure you put a break at the _very first byte_ of your code? WinkieJim Yup Matt LL AndyW If you're getting the DP/Stack memory yourself, you have to set DP and SP LL AndyW yourself too.. GNO Jawaid No, he means GS/OS gives his app a handle at $800 that's $1000 long. Matt DTS Pop into Nifty List and type "InitialLoad2 (one quote) and see what the address it returns is. GNO Jawaid And GS/OS always sets the stack/dp to that handle. Dave Lyons Matt, what? What do you want to know? GNO Jawaid If it's patched :) Jimurphy3 Not likely from a clean system disk with no inits. Matt DTS Actually, patching InitialLoad2 wouldn't help. Only patching GS/OS would cause this, wouldn't it? GNO Jawaid Dave- I can assure you Switch-It! and GNO, too, both set the stack/dp right. GNO Jawaid I would say a patched/rewritten GQuit call, yeah. Dave Lyons WinkieJim, how big is this app? Can you email it to me? Matt DTS When you hit your BRK at the very first byte of your code, go look at e1/00a8 and E1/00B0 and see Dave Lyons Jawaid, sorry, didn't mean to imply otherwise. :-) Matt DTS what they point to. Can you tell us that now? JackyBill Anybody here interested in Apple //e development tools? WinkieJim initiallond2 returns 2011 (01B42C) A2 Ellen Bye guys... Dave Lyons (Just trying to eliminate variables.) JackyBill Or are you all //GS now? GNO Jawaid I know, just wanted to clarify for everyone since GS/OS patches got mentioned. GNO Jawaid :-) Matt DTS Yup, that's right. Can you tell me what the GS/OS vectors point to (I mentioned it while you were Matt DTS looking)? GNO Jawaid Bye, Ellen! GNO Jawaid Jim- what file/auxtype is your program? AFL GaryJ JackyBill: I think pretty much everyone here is IIGS. We're in the AFL GaryJ middle of tracking down a problem in WinkieJim's software at the moment. JackyBill OK Thanks! WinkieJim E1/00a8:5c 3f 79 07 Matt DTS Whoa! GNO Jawaid uh huh. WinkieJim E1/00b0:5c 37 79 07 Matt DTS Type "7793fw" in Nifty List to see who owns the memory that's pointing to. Locutus 1 ! GNO Jawaid Could be GSBug.. Matt DTS "7/793f w" if you want it more spaced out. Ooh, it could be GSBug, but I have GSBug in and didn't see Matt DTS the problem. WinkieJim GEBUG.INIT WinkieJim Gezzz, what's the current version of GSBug? GNO Jawaid If it is, he'll have to remove GSbug and reboot in case something patched GNO Jawaid in ahead of GSBug. AFL GaryJ Locutus: Jump in any time, if it's a comment on Winkie's problem. LL AndyW Jim, Drop into GSBug and see what version it is.. Locutus 1 No, it's a comment on you Gary. :) WinkieJim Well, it did it with fresh system disk too. Matt DTS You should be using 1.6 (type 'v' if it doesn't show up wyen you enter GSBug). It's in the A2Pro Matt DTS libraries. (Drat, I mean the ADV libraries!) Matt DTS (I gotta watch that!) Jimurphy3 :-) WinkieJim got 1.6 AFL GaryJ You want to get to your question, don't you Locutus :) GNO Jawaid But GSBug doesn't patch GQuit itself, which is what it would take. Locutus 1 No, that's not it.. :) Locutus 1 Sending it to you Gary.. :) Matt DTS Are you using AOL on your test machine, Winkie? WinkieJim No I'm on A Mac SE for AOL and the GS is next door WinkieJim (AOL is on the GS's HD too of course Matt DTS Right next to you or in the neighboring house? :) When you stop with the BRK instruction, note the GNO Jawaid Jim- do you have or have access to GNO/ME? Matt DTS address you're executing at, then go to Nifty List and type that address and "w". Dave Lyons (No version of GSBug intentionally messes with OS calls, it just decides whether to break or not.) WinkieJim r Matt DTS You'll get a display of one handle -- the "addr" field should have the same number as the address Matt DTS you stopped at. Does it? LL AndyW To BRK or to Break, that's the question!! Matt DTS (If you stopped at "153fff", the 'addr' should be '153fff', for example.) LL AndyW Use the address under K/PC.. WinkieJim Matt, yes it does. LL AndyW Dp says? LL AndyW SP says? Matt DTS Something's bizarre in your system, Jim. It doesn't happen for any of us. Have you tried any Matt DTS tests where Merlin wasn't involved at all (you didn't even launch it)? AFL GaryJ You might also try some of the suggestions we gave to Russell :) Dave Lyons Jim, can you email me a copy of the app? WinkieJim Matt yes. well Looks like i'll have to ponder on this a bit... WinkieJim Sure dave AFC DYAJim anyone else notice problems using any of the revised EXE utilities on AFC DYAJim the, oh, September Developer CD-ROM? the appleii read me file said that many AFC DYAJim of the utilities (you know, like setfile, clrff, dumpfile, etc) were revised, AFC DYAJim so I "upgraded", and all the files I upgraded to crash. Matt DTS I don't think I've had any experience with any of them, Jim. Sorry. LL AndyW Are you using the 2.0 shell? AFC DYAJim Yes, with the 2.0 shell. Matt DTS Dunno. The CD shouldn't have been corrupted, I don't think. (We've had such luck with those Matt DTS lately, of course). LL AndyW Hmmm... I don't have a CD drive, so I haven't had a chance to check them out.. AFC DYAJim When I get my GS fixed I'll try the utils on September and every disc previous AFC DYAJim until I find a version that works. But supposedly the utils (or some of them( AFC DYAJim were updated on Sept. AFC DYAJim And 2) What the heck is a GWORLD? Matt DTS GWorld == "Graphics world". It's an environment set up by 32-bit QuickDraw on the Macintosh to Matt DTS make off-screen drawing more easy. Doing it in color without GWorlds requires Forrest Tanaka's Matt DTS Technical Note "Principia Offscreen", which is about 60 pages long or so. In other words, it's Matt DTS not fun. GNO Jawaid Yow AFC DYAJim interesting :) GNO Jawaid Hum- another thing the IIgs has done right since day 1. :) AFC DYAJim that's it for me. Matt DTS Well, I'm gonna take off. See y'all next week. Matt DTS The IIgs obviously didn't so _something_ right, Jawaid. It attracted you. :) GNO Jawaid Watch out for that escape velocity, MattDude. GNO Jawaid Hum. GNO Jawaid I'll let that one pass, so Steve doesn't miss out on his weekly insult. :) GNO Jawaid Switch-It! is done.. Switch-It! is done! Yay! Yay! GNO Jawaid :) GNO Jawaid But where's that T2 update? :)