America Online APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG Tuesday, January 12, 1993 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time Topic: Graphics/Animation & General Questions Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFL GaryJ) AFL GaryJ Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum! Tonight, our topic is... AFL GaryJ Graphics and Animation Programming! We can discuss anything to do with AFL GaryJ making things move on your screen, or displaying graphics, or whatever other AFL GaryJ programming questions you may have. I know that Defiant is chomping at the AFL GaryJ bit with his question... Go ahead :) DEFIANT I have a question regarding the avalability of the VISIONARY digitizer... DEFIANT That is the new version of the card that does full motion video... DEFIANT Anyone have inside information on the cards re-emergence? AFC SteveB Check over in the Apple II Graphics & Sound forum... keyword AGS. AFL GaryJ Yeah, they will be talking about that card there (in AGS). AFL Marty I don't believe the card is available. AFL GaryJ (But I have no "inside" information on the card) DEFIANT I thought we were discussing Anamation here in this fourm? AFL GaryJ We are, Defiant. (Programming). But, your question is related. AFL GaryJ AGS specializes in graphics hardware, and graphics applications. AFL GaryJ I haven't checked, but I'm sure they have or will have a folder in their AFL GaryJ message boards on the Visionary digitizer. AFC SteveB Hey, I got a quick off-the-topic question... AFL GaryJ Go for it, Steve AFC SteveB When patching a tool table from a PIF... AFC SteveB do I GOTTA allocate memory, zero out all the entries except for the one(s) AFC SteveB I want to patch and then pass it to SetTSPtr... or can I GetTSPtr, modify AFC SteveB the table it returns, SetTSPtr and SetDefaultTPT it? :) AFC DYAJim There is a technote on this :) Sheppy I'd just follow the technote. :) Jim Murphy Option number 1 - the table could still be in ROM, and modifying that wouldn't work - use the technote Dave Lyons Following the technote is a good idea. If you try to modify the one you get from GetTSPtr, Dave Lyons you might find something annoying, like a pointer into ROM. AFC SteveB Ok, I'll play by the rules. Thanks. :) AFC DYAJim Alright.. First, what does everyone think? Would it make more sense to AFC DYAJim have an Apple defined request code for Screen Blanking and Screen Unblanking, AFC DYAJim or only to send proprietary codes to, say, requests that begin with AFC DYAJim "Twilight II~"? I like the former somehow more, as it supports everyone, AFC DYAJim but I want to know what everyone else thinks :) Sheppy I'd go for the Apple-defined request code. Easier for programmers to deal Sheppy with, I think. AFC SteveB How about we just shut off the monitor when we're not using it and make things AFC SteveB easier? ;) AFL GaryJ Are you writing this "Apple defined request code"? :) AFL Marty Who's "everyone"? AFC DYAJim Everyone - other application programmers who would want their AFC DYAJim pplications to receive these request codes. Barnabas I thought I bugged Dave enough to have Apple-defined... AFC DYAJim Gary - the code would be a one word request number :) Barnabas Good timing on your question, Jim! Matt just missed it! :) AFL GaryJ Which do you prefer, Jim? Sheppy I told you my opinion, Jim. AFC DYAJim I prefer Apple defining a code, so everyone can use it. AFC SteveB Jim-- I don't know how useful that'd be, though. AFC SteveB (To the application) AFC DYAJim I've had enough people ask for it, Steve :) AFL Marty I'm lost. What would be the point of an Apple defined request thingy? AFL GaryJ You also have to convince Apple :) AFC DYAJim That I've decided to support it. From my perspective it would be easy to add AFC DYAJim now if it would help others. Sheppy I know it would be useful for apps. to know when the screen was blanking/ Sheppy unblanking.... for some apps., anyway. AFC DYAJim The point is so that applications can know when the screen is blanking AFC DYAJim and unblanking. Barnabas So that apps didn't need to know about specific screen blankers! AFL Marty Why would that be good to know? Sheppy Yes, exactly. Dave Lyons There is a (slightly cumbersome) way to use a non-Apple request code & still support multiple Dave Lyons screen dimmers: Dave Lyons You define a domain like Dimmer~, and then everybody who writes a dimmer installs their AFC DYAJim (I mentioned that as option #2 :) AFC DYAJim (But I didn't think to make it so generic.. hmm.) Sheppy You called it "Twilight II~" though, Jim. Dave Lyons request proc with a name like Dimmer~Twilight II~, Dimmer~ACME Software~ACME Dimmer~, etc. Sheppy That would work. AFC DYAJim That sounds better than what I previously was thinking Dave Lyons That way you can send messages to Dimmer~, and part of the 8000..FFFF range is "global" for the Dimmer AFC DYAJim Can there be two requests with the same name and different IDs? Dave Lyons domain (and the rest is available for individual apps). AFC DYAJim (on a tangent, just wonderin' :) Dave Lyons I'm not saying that's necessarily the way to go, but it's a good example of how to use the name Dave Lyons domains (that's why they are there). AFL GaryJ That sounds like one good solution, anyway. Dave Lyons Jim, there can't be two request procedures with *exactly* the same name, Dave Lyons but they can have common prefix strings. A~B~ and A~C~ and both exist, but there can't be two Dave Lyons instances of A~B~. Dave Lyons (Was that the question?) Dave Lyons BTW, I have defined a "systemSaysForceUndim" request. To date there is no call to force a Dave Lyons dim. AFC DYAJim Yup. NOw I need to think of a good prefix to send the screen blanking and AFC DYAJim unblanking events to. Any ideas, people? AFC DYAJim Yup I already implemented it Dave :) AFC DYAJim How 'bout DimmerAware~YourApplication ? I'm idea-less. :) Sheppy How about "Blanker~", Jim? :) Sheppy Ah... I see... never mind, Jim. AFC DYAJim But the applications aren't blankers, so I think that would be part AFC DYAJim misleading :) AFC DYAJim Maybe BlankerAware~YourApp. I'll think about it some more. DangardAce Anyone know if the new Apple maus and bendable kybd work with the GS? AFL GaryJ Mouse? Dave Lyons I don't know--gotta get my hands on one and try it, though! I'm especially interested to see what Dave Lyons happens with the funky "extra" buttons for controlling Mac volume & other weird features. Sheppy They do. Sheppy That's what I've read that Apple says, anyway. :) DangardAce Figures you might be able to get it faster than we can, Dave:) Dave Lyons (My guess it is works fine as a kbd, but I haven't heard directly or got my paws on one.) AFC DYAJim Anyone know if there is a compare source utility that works line by line for AFC DYAJim the GS? AFL GaryJ Compare source? Hmmm.... AFL GaryJ I think I've seen something like that somewhere, Jim... but I can't remember. DanP18 I'm pretty sure I've seen ports of the unix diff command floating around. GA. AFC DYAJim Preferably it would show differences on the same screen at once.. Sheppy There's cmp for GNO, I believe. AFC DYAJim Would a command line util be able to do that? I'll have to look then. Sheppy I think that does what you're thinking of. LL AndyW cmp does a byte by byte compare, not line by line.. Sheppy Oh. Right. I'm thinking of diff, then. Sorry. DanP18 diff compares files then prints out the lines that differ with some DanP18 cryptic characters that indicate what should be inserted and what DanP18 should be deleted to make one file match the other. Sheppy Doesn't Merlin 16+ have a file compare utility? LL AndyW Byte by byte again Eric.. AFL GaryJ I might have been thinking of the Merlin file compare. Sheppy Hmmm... I don't remember it being line by line, though... AFC DYAJim A normal file compare utility would not work AFC DYAJim I want something that won't barf if I add comments, or remove a line here, AFC DYAJim or insert a line there. It has to be able to recover after displaying AFC DYAJim a change. Sheppy Oh. Good luck, Jim. Let me know if you find such a thing. Barnabas Well, there's always WIY... Barnabas that works for _everything_... AFC DYAJim I believe MPW's got one, and so does the IBM.. I wish we did LL AndyW You want something that re-sync's itself huh?? I'v heard of something like LL AndyW that, but I don't remember where.. DanP18 diff has that capability. If you are interested I can post the DanP18 Free Software Foundation version of diff. It will need to be DanP18 ported. Anyone feeling industrious? LL AndyW I'll port it.. AFL GaryJ I was trying to remember if any of the multi-file editors do that, but I don't AFL GaryJ think so. LL AndyW I need the practice.. AFL GaryJ (I just checked Edit-16) AFC DYAJim Excellent! Also, I am very disappointed at how Orca's NEWER utility works. AFL GaryJ That would be nice to have ported, Andy :) AFC DYAJim I am looking for something that works exactly like it but can compare the AFC DYAJim modification time OF A FOLDER ONLY, quickly and easily. AFC DYAJim Does such a beast exist? DanP18 I'll have to check. AFC DYAJim Orca's is so idiotic. AFC DYAJim You specify a folder name and it goes thru and checks EACH and every file AFC DYAJim and nested file in that folder. AFL GaryJ It would be a real "beauty" if it did. LL AndyW I sure wish I'd had that when betaing C 2.0.. AFC DYAJim All I want to do is compare the directory time. AFC DYAJim Maybe I'll have to write my own after T2 is done.. sigh. DanP18 I have a CD-ROM with the all the FSF GNU source, plus X11R4 and X11R5 source. LL AndyW What format is it in?? DanP18 There is a series of make.utilities that includes something called DanP18 morerecent that compares dates on two files. Sheppy Say, is upgrading to ORCA/C 2.0 worth it? AFL GaryJ Mike will be here on the 26th, Eric. You can ask him if he thinks it's worth it :) AFL GaryJ (Mike Westerfield) AFC DYAJim yeah, but I really should be spending my time on other things.. Sheppy Well, I _know_ what _he'll_ say! :) AFC DYAJim is there source to morerecent? LL AndyW Jim, would you like me to check out morerecent and see if it goes through LL AndyW all the files in a directory too?? AFC DYAJim That would be great Andy. AFC DYAJim I wish these utils would only go thru all the files in a directory if you AFC DYAJim specified it as directory/=. then we could have the best of both worlds. Sheppy I've already ordered the upgrade (so this is the perfect time to ask if it Sheppy was worth it, right)? :) AFC DYAJim Instead they force going thru all the files as long as you enter directory, AFC DYAJim which is terrible :) LL AndyW The problem is in using the InitWildcard and NextWildcard... LL AndyW They are what are returning files in the directories.. Have to scan for LL AndyW wildcard chars, and if none are present, don't use the wildcard calls.. AFC DYAJim Yech. That's even worse :( AFC DYAJim Yeah.. that's a good fix! LL AndyW Hmmm... Supposedly, if flags $2000 and $1000 are 0, it should only return the LL AndyW specified file.. Have to check into that... AFC DYAJim what flags are those? LL AndyW The ones passed to InitWildcard... NameOBJ has only bit $8000 set, so I can LL AndyW use it to check.. LL AndyW Of course, NameOBJ is using Class 0 calls, and the flags might have changed LL AndyW with shell 2.0, and that's the reference I'm using.. LL AndyW Well, looks like we're all talked out here... LL AndyW It sure would be nice to get ahold of that FFS CD that DanP18 has! AFL GaryJ Maybe he can e-mail it to you? AFL GaryJ :) AFA Jay Download time: < 10 days AFC DYAJim FFS? LL AndyW The whole CD? I wonder how many hours that would take :) AFL GaryJ Well, you WOULD have to compress it first :) LL AndyW Should have been FSF.. LL AndyW Free Software Foundation DanP18 ok. I'm back. It looks like you're talking about me (my favorite subject) AFL GaryJ :) LL AndyW Actually, about your CD.. LL AndyW Close enough though.. AFA Jay can you upload it to us? :) AFL GaryJ (Yeah) DanP18 It would be cheaper for you to by it. AFC DYAJim How much is it, in what format, and from whom? DanP18 39.95. Rock ridge Format. Walnuty Creek CD-ROM. DanP18 Walnut Creek CD-ROM (oops) AFL GaryJ :) AFC DYAJim rock ridge.. lol DanP18 What LOL? It works great on *my* cd-rom. AFL GaryJ Better than the Low Valley format. DanP18 ;) eh dave? AFL GaryJ (Rock ridge?) AFL GaryJ Did you ever get it to work right on your IIGS LL AndyW Can it be read on a GS? AFC DYAJim I will have to investigate ordering it DanP18 I also have the C Users Group Library (volumes 100-364) DanP18 IIGS! AS IF THERE IS ANYTHING ELSE! AFC DYAJim how's that Dan? DanP18 How's what? AFC DYAJim how useful is the UG lib disc? DanP18 function libraries. disassemblers. compilers. text editors. text DanP18 filters. assemblers. games. (the list goes on) AFC DYAJim do the old cp/m cards work on the GS? anyone know how much they go for AFC DYAJim nowadays used? AFL GaryJ The one I had didn't work, Jim. AFL GaryJ (on the IIGS) LL AndyW Sometimes Jim.. LL AndyW Most times, no.. AFC DYAJim Which one did you have Gary? Anyone know which would work? I'd like to AFC DYAJim start playing with Z80. Would any of them (that you know of) work on the GS? LL AndyW MicroSoft CPM card works sometimes.. AFC DYAJim sometimes, as in? AFL GaryJ Tell you the truth, I don't know :) I bought it at a users group swap meet for something AFL GaryJ like $2. LL AndyW Depends on the card.. It's all in the timing.. AFC DYAJim hmm, guess I will open up a folder in AHW :) AFL GaryJ Yeah, the timing is the problem. AFC DYAJim Any other ways to play with z80 on the GS? AFL GaryJ Send e-mail to AFL Jack LL AndyW I'll have to put mine in and see what happens.. LL AndyW Main problem is the CPM cards screw around with the memory map.. AFL GaryJ Make sure you have Applecare first :) DangardAce Applied Agriculture may be selling their Z-80 at a discount now LL AndyW I'm not worried about physical damage.. It'll either work, or not. If not, LL AndyW I pull it out, and no harm done.. AFC DYAJim AE's catalog claims their Z80 Plus card will work with the GS AFC DYAJim I will have to see if I can find one of their cards. AFC DYAJim (thanks for the idea Pete :) AFL GaryJ You should be able to find one cheap - second hand. AFL GaryJ Check with people in a local users group, or in the classifieds. LL AndyW <- Hasn't used mine in almost 10 years.. AFL GaryJ <-- haven't used mine since I got my IIGS six years ago. AFC DYAJim AE's desc of their z80 card makes it sound cool! I wish I had one now! :) AFL GaryJ That's what advertising is all about, Jim :) AFC DYAJim Yeah :) AFC DYAJim It's a small card.. LL AndyW I wonder how fast their Z-80 card is.. AFC DYAJim Andy-2mhz AFC DYAJim But "Specifically designed for high speed operation in the GS" Barnabas Anyone know if you can still get "piggyback" 2-meg. memory cards from AE? AFL GaryJ eh? LL AndyW The MicroSoft one is 2M. The MicroSoft Premium Softcard is 6m... DangardAce IYeah I believe it AFC DYAJim 6m? wow. DangardAce 4 MHz Z80 = 1 MHz 6502 AFC DYAJim so that's like .5mhz 6502? joy LL AndyW Too bad it only fits in a //e.. LL AndyW It's not all that bad Jim.. DangardAce CP/M is so.. so.. rustic AFA Jay it used to be old, now it's RUSTIC? :) LL AndyW When you get a chance to play with CPM Jim, remember the USER command.. AFC DYAJim are there z80 assemblers and disassemblers for CP/M? DangardAce pip you :) LL AndyW pip to you too! DangardAce Didn't we have a CP/M sig in the A2 forums at one time? AFC DYAJim it's still here, but merged into ADV LL AndyW Now, tell me what PIP stands for!! AFC DYAJim picture in picture AFC DYAJim pick in pile AFL GaryJ I used to have COBOL for CP/M. (wow :) AFL GaryJ I think I trashed all my old disks, though. DangardAce PIP used to be a file control dingus for CP/M.. like what FID was to DOs 3.3 LL AndyW Peripheral Interchange Program LL AndyW I have COBOL and Pascal (I think), not to mention MicroSoft BASIC (compiler).. AFC DYAJim For some reason I've become intrigued with z80:) Sounds like I will be ablet AFC DYAJim to have some economical fun! :) Barnabas Why all the Z80 talk? Is this some sort of Freudian desire for Intel chips? :) AFC DYAJim I hate intel :) DangardAce Jim, you're getting too nostalgic.. I'll sell you my Atari 2600 with SuperCharger :)