America Online APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG Tuesday, April 20, 1993 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time Topic: Softdisk Publishing Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFL GaryJ) AFL GaryJ Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum! AFL GaryJ Tonight we have a special guest with us - we have Jay Jennings here from Softdisk! AFL GaryJ I've asked Jay to come tonight and talk about the kinds of things Softdisk has to offer AFL GaryJ to Apple II Developers. Matt DTS This is apparently a definition of "special" which which I was previously unfamiliar. :) Matt DTS (Just trying to set tonight's tone. GA) SoftdiskJJ Hey! AFL GaryJ (unique?) Sheppy More like: "unusual". :) AFL GaryJ Heheh.... well, with that, I think I'll turn it over to Jay to defend himself, and to AFL GaryJ introduce himself - what he does for Softdisk, etc. SoftdiskJJ "Laugh while you can, monkey boy." (who said that?) SoftdiskJJ Okay... SoftdiskJJ Most of you know me. For those of you who don't, pick up Volume XII of Who's Someone in the A2 World. SoftdiskJJ hey, there's Von (another SD programmer). ... SoftdiskVB Hi everyone SoftdiskJJ What we have to offer programmers is -- SoftdiskJJ MONEY. No, you can't get rich, but you can make several hundred (or thousand) dollars writing for us. AFL GaryJ (Sounds better than Shareware already :) Sheppy Oh. I was hoping to make enough money to pay for a month or two at school. :) SoftdiskJJ Is there anyone here who needs to know what Softdisk publishes? (No sense saying something everyone... SoftdiskJJ ...knows). SoftdiskJJ We put out monthly disks containing all original software for the Apple II, IIgs, Mac, PC and... SoftdiskJJ ...Commodore. People subscribe to us and get a new disk every month with programs, clip art, ... SoftdiskJJ ...articles/reviews, etc. SoftdiskVB Don't forget fonts, sounds and other cool stuff. SoftdiskJJ We write a lot of stuff in-house but pay freelance programmers to do stuff, too. SoftdiskJJ Oh yeah, all those things, too. :) SoftdiskJJ Yeah, and Von's a Mac programmer, too. :P SoftdiskJJ So, that's what we do. We write/publish programs. SoftdiskJJ We buy programs every month. We pay anywhere from $300 to $1300+ for a submission. SoftdiskJJ Any questions so far? SoftdiskVB We will work with programmers who are having trouble. Sometimes we furnish source code. Matt DTS When I submit something, does it have to work? SoftdiskJJ Yeah, there are some _smart_ people at Softdisk who can usually figure out any sticking... SoftdiskJJ ...points a person might have. AFC SteveB (You thinking of submitting IR, Matt? :) AFL GaryJ LOL! Barnabas (I don't think they want IR, Matt... }:-> SoftdiskJJ No. But we won't laugh at it if it does work. ... SoftdiskJJ We like completed programs, but have been known to pay for partially completed stuff.... SoftdiskJJ ...it just means that we pay less for it since we'll have to put some time in on it. Sheppy Cool, then, Jay -- I got somethin' for y'all -- it's a full-blown MS Word 5 Sheppy clone. I've got three lines coded. I expect big bucks. :) SoftdiskJJ We don't pay for ideas. AFL GaryJ Nice try, Eric :) SoftdiskJJ You'd get what that's worth, Sheppy! AFC SteveB That and the menu resources eh, Eric? :) Barnabas (So much for intellectual copyrights, folks!) Sheppy Well... I had to try it. :) Sheppy "intellectu-" what? :) James S WI How long is the development cycle for the avarage program that you do in house? SoftdiskVB Three weeks SoftdiskJJ James - It's about 3 weeks. Some things take longer, some we have to "crank out" in a week. ... SoftdiskJJ Freelance people can take as long as they want. :) SoftdiskVB Its a tough job but someone has to do it. Matt DTS (And some of them have!) SeanGolden Sorry I'm late guys, but I'm here. SoftdiskJJ Hey, Sean Golden's here. He's another SD guy (he's a programmer that's actually management!). SoftdiskVB Ooh management! SeanGolden I'm also a traitor, I now work on IBM ugh. AFL GaryJ Good representation here tonight! We're glad to have all of you. PCC Chuck <--17 year veteran software guy on other platforma... total apple novice, however... PCC Chuck ...OK for a couple of entry-level questions? SoftdiskJJ Sure, go for it! AFL GaryJ Go for it, Chuck :) PCC Chuck What language products are popular... saw QuickBASIC and Think C in a store today PCC Chuck Is that like a Windows programming environment? resource editors etc.? SoftdiskVB We program mainly in Think C on the Diskworld. SeanGolden The most common programming languages on the Mac are... SeanGolden Think C and Pascal, MPW C and Pascal, and then the rest. Matt DTS (This is the Apple II development forum, guys. Just in case you'd forgotten. ) PCC Chuck What Pascal product? SeanGolden If you're looking for a development system for Mac programming, I highly recommend Think C or Pascal. SeanGolden Think has a C and a Pascal system. SeanGolden So does MPW. Sheppy Yes. All this Mac & PC talk is pretty ho-hum. :) PCC Chuck oops... sorry! (I'm thinking Mac Quadra) SoftdiskJJ (These newcomers...) :) Matt DTS Chuck, you want to check out the Macintosh Development Forum (MDV). Barnabas I have a digitized sound from the ROM 03 to send you, Sean... ;) PCC Chuck Ah hah... OK thanks :) Matt DTS They have their conferences at 11:00 PM ET, I think, or maybe it's going on right now. Matt DTS Use keyword MDV to check it out. SoftdiskVB JJ, ya'll use Orca C and assembler dont you? SoftdiskJJ Has anyone here actually sold a program to Softdisk? AFL GaryJ I know people who have :) AFC SteveB I've almost... :) SoftdiskVB Almost? SoftdiskJJ There's a lot of stuff that's been released shareware that we would have paid _real_ money... SoftdiskJJ ...for. And I would bet that SD will get you a LOT more than the typical shareware will pull in. SoftdiskVB Shareware? Oh thats that other stuff. SeanGolden Yes, as "management" let me tell you. We can guarantee a paycheck. Barnabas What is your position on ShareWare remarketing? AFL GaryJ I would agree with that. Sheppy I've been lucky to make a couple hundred bucks in shareware fees... small Sheppy change, mebbe, but not bad for shareware, I'm told. :) SeanGolden Barnabas, we like to have original software, but... SeanGolden We can be had, with the right attitude. SoftdiskJJ You can make a couple hundred bucks in 2-3 weeks with us. Sheppy Well, as I was gonna say, I'd _like_ to sell y'all something, but I haven't Sheppy had any original ideas of substance lately. AFL GaryJ Do you have a special type of program you are interested in? Is there anything you *aren't* looking AFL GaryJ for? AFC SteveB Almost... I showed JJ the program I was gonna submit at the last KFest. SoftdiskJJ Eric - I know what you mean. I always ran into that problem, too. To get ideas now... SoftdiskJJ ...I browse magazines for other platforms and steal ideas right and left. It helps a lot. AFL GaryJ Maybe you could throw out the kinds of programs you *have* paid money for, to give AFL GaryJ people ideas - get their wheels turning :) SeanGolden Listen, we have a "wish list" that you can use to see exactly what we would like to have. Sheppy Sounds good. Let's hear it. SeanGolden I think I'm going to bop out of here and log back on as "SoftdiskSG" be right back. SoftdiskVB Small utilities, games, puzzles, most anything we can get on a disk. SoftdiskJJ Recent SDGS submissions... Storm Ruins (game), Easy Eyes (utility NDA), Moku (game),... SoftdiskJJ ...AlphaTeach (educational), FlexiBoot (utility), Address Manager (productivity). SoftdiskVB We look at all kinds of programs, commercial and shareware. We transform the ideas into something... SoftdiskVB we can do in a short time. Submitters are free to do anthing they can handle. SoftdiskJJ Seems like we get more game submissions on the IIgs -- which means we'll pay more for productivity... SoftdiskJJ ...stuff. SoftdiskVB Yeah productivity stuff is harder to find. AFC DYAJim It sounds like SDGS is a lot better now than the first six issues I got (that AFC DYAJim totally made me not want to renew. I kept saying "maybe something will be AFC DYAJim real useful in the next issue", and the next issue would come and I'd AFC DYAJim be disappointed again. But it sounds really neat now :) AFL GaryJ Any limitations on size? And, how much is paid for the typical game? Sheppy Productivity stuff is generally (a) less interesting to write, and (b) tough Sheppy to really come up with ideas for. Sheppy (IMO) AFL GaryJ (I agree, Sheppy :) AFC DYAJim Productivity sells better (usually :) SoftdiskJJ Jim - Yes, SDGS is about a bazillion times better now that even two years ago. SoftdiskVB Size is usually limited to one quarter of a disk. SoftdiskJJ Yes, we have size limitations. The largest game we publish is usually in the 250K range. SoftdiskVB But we make exceptions.) AFL GaryJ That's what I was wondering. SoftdiskJJ We like 100K games. :) SoftdiskJJ Payment for a typical game... SoftdiskJJ ...can be anywhere from $400 to $1000+. Sheppy ** drool ** :) AFC DYAJim Do you ever use SEAs? SoftdiskVB We have on Diskworld. AFL GaryJ Gee, how many people actually send in a shareware fee on a GAME? AFL GaryJ Look at this alternative! Sheppy <-- Wishes he was graphically inclined. :) Sheppy Does Gary get a fee for this plugging assistance? ;) SoftdiskVB We will let our artists work on a program to spiff it up. SoftdiskJJ Hey, if you can draw a stick figure it's cool. ... AFL GaryJ All these hobyist game programmers can actually make some money on their efforts! Barnabas The sticking point I have with submitting many of my programs to SoftDisk is Barnabas the exclusive distribution... I struggle between the desire for distribution Barnabas and for money. SoftdiskJJ We take cool games with icky graphics and turn it into a cool game with cool graphics. AFL GaryJ I can understand that, Barnabas. AFL GaryJ Depends on what you are after. Fame or Fortune :) Barnabas Is there any way for people to buy singles or back issues from SoftDisk, so we Barnabas (as programmers) can point them to you for our great ventures? SoftdiskJJ What do you want, Greg, fame or fortune? :) SoftdiskVB Oh yeah we even have a back issue catalog for all of our products. SoftdiskJJ Darn it, people keep stealing my lines! Sheppy Both is better. AFL GaryJ :) Barnabas Both, in high doses. SoftdiskVB Sorry:) AFC SteveB You're a DrawIcon()/EraseRect()/DrawIcon() graphics programmer too huh, Eric :) Sheppy Back issue catalog? Really? First I ever heard of it. Wow. SoftdiskJJ You can call 800-831-2694 and get a back issue catalog. SoftdiskSG I'm back. AFL GaryJ I was quite impressed by the reports of payment from the person I know who sold stuff to Softdisk. Sheppy Nope, I don't even get that into graphics, Steve, although I'm planning on Sheppy getting into some graphics stuff, since it sounds like a lot of fun. :) SoftdiskVB You can publish a program we have bought if it doesnt significantly resemble the one you sold us SoftdiskJJ It's a very cool _new_ catalog with things broken down quite well. Marketing surprises us every once.. SoftdiskJJ ...in a while. :) SoftdiskVB I think. What do you think Sean? Barnabas So, what kind of money do people pay for back issues? SoftdiskJJ Greg - Back issues are from $6-$10 each depending on quantity. AFL Marty How do you decide whether or not to accept a submission for publication? AFL Marty What kinds of things do you look for/at? SoftdiskJJ Marty... SoftdiskJJ ...first thing we look at is whether it actually runs when we start it. Some submissions don't! SoftdiskJJ Then we look at whether it's something we think our subscribers would like. For example, programming.. SoftdiskJJ ...utilities are not something our people want. SoftdiskJJ We look at whether the program does what it's supposed to. What we don't... SoftdiskJJ ...look at is whether the program is exactly "right." Well, we do... SoftdiskJJ ...look at that, but it's not something that keeps us from accepting a submission. SoftdiskSG We will also work with a programmer to make changes that we think are necessary... SoftdiskVB I help though. SoftdiskSG It isn't necessarily an "all-or-nothing" deal. AFL Marty Do you tend to shy away from things that might be considered "educational" AFL Marty applications. SoftdiskVB NOOO! SoftdiskSG Marty, Educational items are great! SoftdiskJJ No, Marty. We like those -- but don't get too many submissions like that. AFL GaryJ That's a good question though (about a previously submitted shareware game). What is your policy on AFL GaryJ that kind of thing? SoftdiskVB What do you mean previously submitted. SoftdiskSG GaryJ, we have a "policy" of publishing "original" software... but... SoftdiskSG We can work with a programmer to make "significant" changes to publish a previously published... SoftdiskSG shareware offering. Send it to us and let us decide what to do. AFL GaryJ Not "previously submitted", but possibly previously released - in a not-as-good format, say. SoftdiskVB What Sean said. SoftdiskSG GaryJ, We usually will have some changes to suggest anyway. James S WI About what percent of WORKING programs do you turn down? SoftdiskSG James S. What do you mean "WORKING?" SoftdiskJJ About 10%? Maybe less? Lemme think... SoftdiskJJ Well, it depends on the platform. We get a better percentage on the IIgs than the 8-bit II. SoftdiskSG If you send in a good, solid program, even if it is something we can't use immediately... James S WI I mean not counting the programs that simple do not work,what percent of the programs make James S WI the cut? SoftdiskJJ Naw, I guess it's higher than 10%, but if a program has possibilities we'll work with the author... SoftdiskJJ ...a LOT in order to get it "up to snuff." SoftdiskSG We will try to send you some ideas for programs you can write that we WILL buy. Barnabas How about source code? Who owns source routines, and do you have to have them? AFL GaryJ Good question, Barnabas. SoftdiskSG Barnabas, We need to have the source code, but we do not claim ownership of algorithms... SoftdiskSG Or routines used in your code. You can re-use code in other programs with little or no restriction. SoftdiskJJ We must have the source code. SoftdiskVB We publish some of our programs overseas in different languages. SoftdiskSG If we suggest SPECIFIC changes, we don't like to see those SPECIFIC changes in a subsequent SoftdiskSG Shareware release, for example. SoftdiskVB We have subscribers all over the world. Cool huh? SoftdiskJJ James - To follow up your last question... SoftdiskJJ ...if you sent us a program it would have to be _very_ boring/icky with no hope of recovery... SoftdiskJJ ...for us to turn it down. Or maybe we just did (are doing) something similar. SoftdiskSG If you are worried about our source code policies, PLEASE talk to some of your fellow SoftdiskSG programmers who have worked with us. I think you'll be satisfied with their experiences. SoftdiskVB Can you think of any names? Sean? Jay? SoftdiskSG Von, names for what? SoftdiskJJ Yeah, except I only know first names. :) ... SoftdiskVB Programmers who have worked with us. SoftdiskSG Oh, names of programmers, No, I can't... but Jay should be able to. SoftdiskJJ Me. SoftdiskJJ :) SoftdiskVB Maybe not.) SoftdiskSG Yes, Jay was once a very good submitter for us, as was Bryan (Zak to his friends). They liked it... SoftdiskSG so much they decided to work for us. James S WI Tell us the first name and we can all guess the last. :) SoftdiskJJ Russ. SoftdiskJJ Does 8-bit games. Barnabas What policy does Softdisk have, then, on the expanded use of source submitted? Barnabas (use by SoftDisk in unrelated works) AFL GaryJ Steve Stephenson is the programmer I know who told me all about how good Softdisk is :) SoftdiskSG Barnabas-> Our policies are clearly stated in our submission contracts, of which we have two... SoftdiskSG One of which describes our mutual rights and responsibilities BEFORE either of us commit... SoftdiskSG to anything. SoftdiskJJ If we buy a program we buy the program/source. However, I can't think of anything that we've used... SoftdiskJJ ...in house that came from someone else. Why, you have some cool stuff we should know about? :) SoftdiskVB Steven Fuchs is a good submitter. Barnabas I _always_ have cool stuff people should know about. But I figure, if the Barnabas software is good enough, the details will work out... SoftdiskSG Yes, but Steven F. is mainly a Mac submitter. SoftdiskVB But Steven is on AOL, isn't he? SoftdiskSG Von, yes he is. SoftdiskSG Our source code policies were written by programmers, not pinhead marketing types... SoftdiskJJ Well said, Sean! :) SoftdiskSG (No offense intended for any pinhead marketing types.) We understand programmers concerns. Sheppy Ah, come on, go ahead and offend the pinhead marketing types. They deserve it. AFL GaryJ Everyone I've talked to that has submitted stuff to Softdisk has been very happy with AFL GaryJ their treatment, and the policies. SoftdiskVB Some of them are our bosses. SoftdiskSG I really don't think any of you will have any problems with our policies for source code. SoftdiskSG Von, yeah but they don't attend these forums (I hope.) SoftdiskVB Sean, me too. SoftdiskJJ A good programmer could probably make $600-$1000 a month programming for Softdisk. That's not... SoftdiskJJ ...enough to live on, but it's enough to buy a LOT of pizza and Jolt. SoftdiskVB If you are good and fast. SoftdiskSG Lets try to get back to the issues of what we would like to buy and how you can get it to us. AFL GaryJ Hey, that's really not bad for extra bucks - for people who program part-time, after normal work (or AFL GaryJ school) hours. SoftdiskVB You could e-mail your submissions to JJ or me. SoftdiskSG We have one Mac submitter who DOES make a fairly good living submitting to Softdisk. Honest. SoftdiskJJ Oh, we just changed out minimum platform on the 8-bit side. We no longer support... SoftdiskJJ ...anything below a 128K enhanced IIe. (finally) SoftdiskVB What about our snail mail address? SoftdiskSG Send anything to P. O. Box 30008, Shreveport, LA 71130-0008. SoftdiskSG Or to Softdisk Publishing, 606 Common St. Shreveport, LA 71101 GNO Jawaid So, what exactly are you looking for? SoftdiskJJ Which means that DHR and 80-column things for the Apple II are now cool. SoftdiskSG PROGRAMS!!!! AFC SteveB There's something above a 128k enchanced IIe?!? AFL GaryJ (Lots of stuff in the log file, Jawaid :) SoftdiskVB We really like utilities, educational, informational, games, etc. SoftdiskJJ No programmer utilities, Jawaid. Almost anything else is fair game. AFL GaryJ :) SoftdiskSG Nice response Von. SoftdiskJJ Desk accessories, Finder extras, "real" programs, etc. AFL GaryJ No problem. It doesn't hurt to state that again and again. SoftdiskVB Oh yes we love "real" programs. SoftdiskSG Is there any need here to differentiate between Apple ][ needs and GS needs? AFA Andy Does SD do hyperstacks or just programs? SoftdiskSG Jay, do we do hyperstacks on GS? AFL GaryJ It might not hurt to spell it out for us, Sean. SoftdiskSG OK, on the Apple II there is more of a focus on educational items.. SoftdiskSG On the GS there is more of a focus on Games, NDAs, Fonts and clip art. AFA Andy Thanks. SoftdiskSG Other than that, the general format is very similar. SoftdiskJJ By getting a back issues catalog you can see what we've published in the past. SoftdiskJJ No stacks. Only because they usually take up mucho space on the disk. SoftdiskJJ However, we'll take educational stuff for the IIgs and games for the 8-bit II. !