America Online APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG Tuesday, May 18, 1993 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time Topic: Operating Systems Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFL GaryJ) AFL GaryJ Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum! Tonight, our topic (should you decide to accept it) AFL GaryJ is Programming with Operating Systems. Sheppy ('cause programming without one is a royal pain...) AFL GaryJ (Not: "Programming Operating Systems", which can be a whole different animal :) Sheppy Yes, it is, Gary. AFL GaryJ Hi Matt AFL GaryJ Anyway, we can talk about Operating Systems tonight, or discuss other questions or comments AFL GaryJ of importance that may (or may not) be on your mind tonight. Matt DTS Howdy. AFL GaryJ I guess we can look at the bright side about the new System Software 6.0.1 taking so long... Spottysoft We can?? ;) Sheppy Gives us time to enjoy System 6.0? AFL GaryJ ...as long as it is still in development, there are still Apple II folks supporting the Apple II AFL GaryJ at Apple :) Spottysoft True Gary.... :) Sheppy This is, obviously, a subtle attempt by Gary to prod Matt into saying Sheppy something. AFL GaryJ After that, who knows? AFA AndyW Ok.. OS type question.. AFL GaryJ An OS type question? (where? :) AFA AndyW I'm looking for some code to do the same thing (almost) as SFGet/PutFile, but AFA AndyW in a text environment.. Anyone have any ideas?? Matt DTS Write it. :) Sheppy What language? AFA AndyW ASM or C.. AFA Jay I've done a list control with the console driver in C. AFA AndyW Well, I already wrote code to read directories, so maybe the list control AFA AndyW would be enough to finish it out.. AFA AndyW <- not all that good with screen stuff AFA Jay It's not quite universal, but probably could be adapted, I think. AFA Jay I used the console driver, but I'm sure there's a faster better way. AFA AndyW What could be faster than the console driver, besides direct screen access? AFA AndyW (which isn't the best idea anyway under GSOS) Sheppy What's wrong with direct screen access? AFA Jay in C? :) AFC DYAJim Yeah, direct screen access 4-ever! AFC DYAJim stack based text mode scrolling.. yeah! AFA AndyW I'd like to avoid that, especially since it would be getting used in a CDA.. AFA Jay Ok, that's good...my list control thinger was for a CDA :) Sheppy Avoid what in a CDA? Direct screen access? Nothing wrong with that (if there Sheppy is, then tough). :) AFL GaryJ I KNOW I've seen some source code, or an example of a SFGetFile in text mode (but AFL GaryJ I can't remember where). I was just searching some of my stuff. AFA AndyW Well, I plan to have the CDA work when AOL is in use.. AFA Jay There was one, a BASIC & command... AFA AndyW It would be used in my AOMac2GS program.. AFL GaryJ Yeah, maybe it was in BASIC that I saw it. AFA AndyW Not much good for a CDA Jay.. AFL GaryJ (Well, use it with Dave Lyon's Applesoft CDA :) AFA Jay I realize that, but you could see how things were handled. Sheppy Andy, I still don't see what's wrong with direct screen access in a CDA, even Sheppy if you want AOL compatibility... AFL Marty SF Get by Karl Bunker, Jay? AFA Jay That'd be the one. AFA AndyW I have that, but it's for use in BASIC, and uses P8.. AFL Marty You could use it as a pattern (of sorts) .. to see how things were handled. AFL GaryJ Yeah, THAT's the one I saw, Marty. AFL Marty (to paraphrase Jay) AFA AndyW Maybe, but I'd like to see stuff that was written to be used with GSOS.. AFA Jay I would check out that SF Get....it's probably the closest you'll find to AFA Jay what you want. Sheppy Yes. I know of some programs that have SF-style boxes in CDAs/text screen, AFA Jay You said you had the GSOS catalog part done...so you just need ideas for AFA Jay how to handle the mousetext dialog part Sheppy but I don't have source. One of my programs will eventually have one -- I'm Sheppy having someone else write the code for it though. :) AFL GaryJ Parik's sound CDA had something like that, if I recall. AFA AndyW Right Jay.. The idea would be to have something similar to the interface in AFA AndyW File-a-Trix.. AFL Marty File A Trix does too Sheppy So does File-a-Trix, I think. ;) AFA AndyW Well, I guess I'll just have to rewrite code that already exists then! AFL GaryJ Hmm... I thought there would be more speculation about 6.0.1 tonight. AFL GaryJ Anyone know what's going to be new in the new system software? Matt DTS Oh, geez, not the 6.0.1 questions again... AFL GaryJ We HAVE to give Matt a complex about that! (Especially since it's on topic!) Matt DTS None of the speculation I've heard includes any of the nifty things. AFL GaryJ None of the nifty things? AFL GaryJ WHAT nifty things? Matt DTS Oh, OK... **** WARNING: From this point on in this log, Matt DTS is "pulling our leg" **** Sheppy What? Is Nifty List now integrated into the SSW? :) AFA AndyW Well, there's supposed to be the MS-DOS FST.. Matt DTS ...like the new "bounce-back" feature in Standard File that makes it rehighlight the last file you... Matt DTS ...picked when you return to a given directory, even if it's in a different application. Sheppy Cool! Matt DTS That's why in 6.0.1, there are "Standard File droppings" in addition to "Finder droppings"... AFL Marty Kangaroo already does that. AFA AndyW You mean like ProSel 16 has done for the longest time (in the editor)? Matt DTS ...because that stuff has to be stored somewhere. To keep things down, all folders now get their own AFL Marty (droppings and all) AFC DYAJim really? standard file droppings.. cool Matt DTS invisible "droppings" folder to hold all the system's droppings, and Standard File won't enter Sheppy But Kangaroo isn't the system software... :) AFA AndyW Arrrgggghhhh More turds on my drive!! Matt DTS it. (Unless you set a previously-reserved bit in SFShowInvisible, but then the droppings folder gets AFL Marty I don't have to wait for Kangaroo. Matt DTS it's _own_ droppings folder, which can lead to strange directory maps). Sheppy Cool. A Droppings folder. I like that idea. AFL GaryJ Neato. (I hate to ask the name of this "droppings" folder :) Matt DTS Some programs haven't been dealing very well with the concept of "invisible folders," but they tried AFL Marty Guano Matt DTS their best. Actually, each program can come back to a different file in the same directory (the one Matt DTS highlighted in AWGS may not be the one highlighted in ShrinkIt), so the SF.Data file in each folder ca Matt DTS (can) get to be a few K if you visit it with lots of programs. AFL GaryJ I like that idea. A BIG time saver. AFC DYAJim Right on, Gary Matt DTS I notice it slowing down network/floppy traffic, but those things were pretty slow anyway. Sheppy What kinds of problems are applications having with invisible folders? AFL GaryJ What else is there??? :) Matt DTS They don't expect them to be that way, and sometimes prompt the users to do something in a folder they Matt DTS can't see. :) Matt DTS What else is new? Let's see... Sheppy Ah. Nothing serious, then... Matt DTS There's a new DMA RAMDisk driver that leverages off the DMA SCSI card to do DMA to make transfers Matt DTS faster. DMA to and from the card is still faster than per-byte host-initiated memory moving. Matt DTS But that requires it using memory on the card, which means you lose your RAM disk if you go to Sheppy Eenteresting... Matt DTS ProDOS 8, so it's an optional feature. Matt DTS (the Standard File droppings can't be turned off, and since there's a standard place for them now the Matt DTS Finder droppings can't be turned off either because it made some problems disappear.) Spottysoft "standard droppings" :) Sheppy I assume the droppings folder is given a really twisted name so it doesn't AFL Marty :) Sheppy interfere with users? Matt DTS To prevent the color/refresh desktop problems, the Control Panel now checks a battery RAM bit and AFA AndyW std.data All over my drive! Yuck! Matt DTS by default won't open unless the colors are standard, though you can change that. Matt DTS This fixes a lot of problems but doesn't interfere with most programs. You just get a dialog saying Matt DTS "This would mess up your screen; try it in the Finder instead." Matt DTS The HFS FST is faster by allocating 8K of bank zero space to use for optimized operations. AFC DYAJim Sounds like something that Greg complained about.. Sheppy Eeew. 8K of bank zero space? Does it get rid of it when an operation is Sheppy completed? Sheppy Yeah, it does, Jim, doesn't it? :) Spottysoft How much faster Matt?? (in %) BriKish Hello, everyone...could you please tell me if you know abou mousedesk? Matt DTS Sheppy: No, it keeps static storage there. It hasn't caused any problems that we've seen; most Matt DTS programs leave plenty of bank zero space left. Matt DTS Jim: About 18%. AFC DYAJim MouseDesk.. is that the PT special emulation screen maker? AFL GaryJ 18% is pretty good. Sheppy Well... people using stuff like The Manager or Switch-It will not necessarily Sheppy be thrilled by that. BriKish no....it is a desktop program that mimcs mac Matt DTS The Appledisk3.5 driver now completely ignores any 3.5" drives that aren't Apple's to avoid those... Matt DTS ...dratted compatibility problems with those other drives. They need separate loaded drivers now Matt DTS instead of pretending to be Apple drives and piggybacking off the firmware. Matt DTS Oh, and one other thing... AFA Jay woah Anyway I've got MouseDesk--a couple of copies of it. Matt DTS ...I made all this stuff up. You people are _so_ gullible. :) **** See, I told you! **** Sheppy Hmmm... and do those drivers exist? What do those unfortunate souls do? Anyway It was a Mac-like desktop environment, but not something I ever really used. BriKish yeah...so do i. i was wondering if there is any uh..add ons? BriKish one moment gary... AFC DYAJim oh, That MouseDesk. I confused it with MouseTrap :) Anyway Add-Ons? Bri, it was one of those things that came out, so we all bought it, no one used it and we Anyway all put it away. It was in the days when we bought everything that came out for the //...only because Sheppy Talk about _gullible_, Matt -- you're the one who seems to have believed that Sheppy _we_ believed anything you said!! :) :) Anyway we wanted to make it work, not because we wanted to use it. AFL GaryJ Gullible's Travels AFA Andy With System 6 why would you need it? Matt DTS I had a clue when people called SF droppings "cool". :) BriKish uh...so there is no add on to mousedesk? Anyway It was back in 1985 or so, Andy. BriKish it was unpopular right? Anyway Not that I know of, Bri. AFL Marty Wasn't Mousedesk for 8-bit Apples? AFL GaryJ Yes it was, Marty BriKish yes it was for apple IIe IIc....and IIc+ Anyway Not necessarily unpopular. Just unused. AFC DYAJim mousedesk was on system 1.x I think AFL GaryJ I think it came on the first IIGS system disk. AFL Marty Aha... that answers the System 6 question then :) AFC DYAJim i used it before the finder, but not much AFL GaryJ (Mousedesk) GNO Jawaid I'm here, y'all can start now :-) BriKish so....mousedesk is just a gimmick in a sense? Sheppy Pfft. I still think it's a good idea, Matt. :) AFL GaryJ Matt, you needed a good name for the "droppings" folder though. Sheppy Hey, 'waid. 'Sup? AFL GaryJ :) Spottysoft Jawaid... we were all just leaving... :) AFL Marty "System.Guano" AFL GaryJ Hi Jawaid BriKish system guano? Anyway Yes, Bri. We really all used ProSEL, Applewriter and, GPLE. That's about it until AWKS and Hyper- AFA Jay Jawaid, you missed all the 6.0.1 features :) Anyway Studio. Sheppy "System.Bull..." Sheppy "features" AFL GaryJ "Toilet" AFL Marty A foul joke, Bri :) BriKish I am presently using prosael 8 for my sider d4T is there a new version? AFL GaryJ :) GNO Jawaid Jay - heh heh heh.. Sure I did :) Anyway They don't make 'm like Applewriter. Spottysoft I like "Mac" myself. BriKish :) thanks marty... AFL GaryJ Newer version of ProSel? What version are you using, BriKish? Spottysoft (nothing better than "dumping" on one) :) BriKish i'm not sure...but i know it's 1989... Matt DTS Well, I had my fun. :) Anyway Bri, I don't know which version you should use, but if it works, don't mess with it. GNO Jawaid No you didn't, Matt. AFL GaryJ (I have no idea about ProSel, but I'm sure there's a newer version than 1989) Anyway The Sider is a persnickety thing... Matt DTS You just missed it. Anyway I updated my Sider disks about a million times...each time forgetting that to format the AFL GaryJ Jawaid is lucky :) BriKish think i can find out more about newer version of prosel in support group? Anyway drive it HAD TO BE IN SLOT 6. GNO Jawaid I feel so left out.. so "out of the loop". So Late. :) Sheppy Matt now thinks he's really clever. Dont'cha Matt? :) Spottysoft I would check Glen Bredon's CS area about the latest versions of Prosel. AFA Jay Well, Matt...I just may delete all that from the log, so :P AFA Jay ;) BriKish thanks spotty.... Anyway I had two Siders, one always in 6, one in 5. I always forgot that the 5 wasn't recognized. AFL GaryJ My favorite new feature was the one about the non-Apple 3.5 drives :) AFA Jay Yah, sitting here looking at my AE 3.5" drive :) BriKish hey...y'all know that sider d4T is 14 milliseonds? Anyway Bri, do you have a user group in your area? Sheppy Heh. I was gonna ask about that, Jay. :) BriKish uh..i'm new here on AOL...so... Matt DTS I knew I was really clever. Now you guys know it too.. :) GNO Jawaid Jay - but save the cutting room floor cuts for me :) Matt DTS (Please excuse me while I go buy a bigger hat) Sheppy Okay, Matt, you win -- you tricked a few of us. But that's only because we Sheppy trust you more than you deserve. :) AFL Marty No big deal Jay. It's not like 6.0.1 is coming out tomorrow or anything :) AFA Jay Actually, if I re-arrange everything nicely, we can make Matt look bad }:> Anyway Call Apple's 800 number, Bri, to see if there's a user group in your area. Old Apple II users will AFL GaryJ :) AFL GaryJ That's right, Jay's the editor :) Anyway help you with Prosel, the Siders and MouseDesk. BriKish ok....thanks. so anyone know a GOOD 8 bit prodos 8 based program BriKish for sound playing on my 2e from a cassttee recorder? Anyway Applewriter. Anyway QuickFile BriKish applewriter? is that a WP prog? Anyway Ayup, a bit sophisticated for many, but it's easy and fun to use. BriKish I use Appleworks 3.0 LOVE IT. Anyway Well, that's state of the Apple II art, Bri. And lots of people have done templates, add-ons... Anyway It's where it's at, I guess. AFA Andy I need to run, night all. BriKish hey Ayway, do you know about a 8 bit program to play music off of my cassttee BriKish recorder? Spottysoft <--- thinks Jay's gotta whle LOT of editing to do :) Sheppy Why not just hit the Play button on your tape recorder. I don't see what a Sheppy computer has to do with it, unless you're looking to digitize sounds on your Anyway Maybe Music Construction Set will do it. AFA Jay Yah, this is going to be an interesting one... Sheppy computer... or control the tape player from your computer. Anyway Record it on the computer, you mean, and play it through the computer's speaker? AFA Jay Maybe I'll just reduce it to 10 lines ;) Sheppy Less, Jay. BriKish yes...play it through my computer .... Anyway Music Construction Set, like Pinball Construction Set, is a wonderfully fun program. Sheppy There are a couple of new programs in AMS that do that, BriKish. Check them Anyway Bri, you have to ask the big guns about music on the //. Dennis Doms could tell you a lot about it. Sheppy out. One is a 5-bit program, the other is 6-bit. The 5-bit is better. BriKish AMS? could you pls spell that out? Anyway He used to do a great deal with MIDI on the //. Sheppy Er... no, they don't let you record. Never mind -- they play back Apple IIGS Sheppy sounds. Sorry. Anyway I don't remember his new screen name on AOL, thought. BriKish oh....well....dennis dom is still on AOL? Spottysoft It's not AMS anymore.... it's AGS. Apple II Graphics and Sound Spottysoft :) Anyway Yes, but he changes names all the time. Yes, go to AGS and ask. Sheppy Right, right. Big deal, Spotty. I think AMS still works... :) BriKish ok...well....i'll go and chexk it out....thanks BriKish BYE everyone... Anyway Surely AFL Scott can work with you--and AFC Joyce can give you lessons. AFA Jay AGR and AMS still work, I still use them :) Anyway Makes one wonder if anyone ever did anything ON the two versus FOR the //. AFC DYAJim yah, met oo Matt DTS Well, in the absence of programming talk, I think I'll take off. Sheppy Later, Matt. AFL GaryJ Goodnight, Matt! GNO Jawaid Ha, I got too wierd for Matt :-) FredW GS Someone said you might be able to help with a question of mine Jawaid. Sheppy So, anybody doing any cool programming...? FredW GS Got a minute?? GNO Jawaid Fred - I'll be back in about five minutes.. I'm seeing a passel of hippies on GNO Jawaid their further cross-country trek :) FredW GS OK?? :) Spottysoft "passel"... :) AFL Marty "passel of hippies"? :) AFA Jay is that the proper "group" word for hippies? Spottysoft There's a good name for a droppings folder.. :) Sheppy That's a lot like a partridge in a pear tree. Spottysoft A whole "passel of droppings" :) FredW GS Passel of hippie droppings AFL Marty psychedelic hippie droppings AFA Jay tie-dyed? :) Spottysoft Shep... as soon as I can get my air conditioner fixed... I'll be doing some Spottysoft "cool programming" ;) AFC DYAJim Matt wouldn't tell us what the folder was named.. mm. FredW GS MY trips are never good...I can only see 16 colors at any one time... Sheppy Arrrgh. Sigh. Spotty... you need help, man. AFL Marty I heard 6.0.1 won't be released until everyone who worked on it retires. Spottysoft Marty.... those make me Leary of the situation. :) AFL Marty Oh gawd Spottysoft Sheppy I heard 6.0.1 won't be released until computers are obsolete. Spottysoft Well... until it's released... it doesn't matter what they put in it. :)