America Online APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG Tuesday, May 25, 1993 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time Topic: Marketing Your Software Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFL GaryJ) AFL GaryJ Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum! Tonight, our scheduled topic is... Sheppy of my IIGS programming on it. :) AFL GaryJ "Marketing Your Software" AFL GaryJ ...which means, anything and everything about how to distribute, dispense, or otherwise, make some AFL GaryJ bucks off of the software you write. Barnabas OK, so how do we do that, Gary? AFL GaryJ Well, there's shareware :) AFL GaryJ But there are a number of other options, depending upon the type of program. AFL GaryJ Companies like Seven Hills and SoftDisk are looking for things to publish AFL GaryJ all the time. Barnabas Yes, it does depend on the type of program. Ex.: Never market a game or game Barnabas related piece of software as ShareWare. Most gameplayers don't pay. Barnabas However, I understand that utility-type programs can do well as Shareware, eh Barnabas Eric? AFL GaryJ I heard that even Seven Hills would take a game (but that was quite a few months ago). Sheppy Not bad, sometimes. :) AFL Marty They will (and did). Barnabas For what, Marty? (and when?) AFL Marty I don't recall offhand. It's posted on their message board though. Sheppy Game, Barnabas. The Gate, for one... AFL Marty That's the one. Barnabas Oh, you're talking about Seven Hills now. AFL GaryJ Yes, I know a fellow who wrote an NDA, the only purpose of which was to manipulate the AFL GaryJ paper position on an ImageWriter II. He distributed it as shareware, and AFL GaryJ made quite a bit of money off of it. (He was really surprised). Sheppy I've made about $350 or $400 off ProBOOT so far. AFL GaryJ Yeah, that's about how well this other NDA did. AFL GaryJ He got a lot of responses from doctors, and professional types like that. AFL GaryJ (These people were using IIGS's! :) Barnabas Interestingly enough, this "very good" shareware result is about what SoftDisk Barnabas quoted as the _minimum_ they pay... Sheppy Yeah -- that seems to be a trend! My registered users tend to be doctors, Sheppy retired military personnel, and other business-types... AFL GaryJ Some people even sent him more than the requested shareware fee, because they liked AFL GaryJ it so much. Sheppy I haven't figured out why, exactly..... AFL GaryJ That's true, Barnabas. SoftDisk pays rather well, in my opinion... at least, for someone Barnabas Which gets back to what I said: these aren't your typical game-types. AFL GaryJ just writing a program for the fun of it. AFL Marty Maybe they're rich. Sheppy True. Sheppy Prolly, Marty. AFL GaryJ That could have something to do with it, Marty :) Barnabas I know I have no intention of putting out any more Shareware, except for AFL Marty (not speaking from experience) Sheppy I got invited to do a presentation at a user group meeting in Ventura, CA. :) Barnabas programs for which I want distribution and am not concerned about getting Barnabas anything back... AFL Marty What shareware have you put out? Sheppy (this from a man who has only one program out as shareware... :) Barnabas Nope, three Eric. I put some on GEnie, also. Never made a dime. Sheppy Really? What are they, Greg? Sheppy Depends a lot on what they are. If a user perceives a program as "no big deal" Barnabas (But then, they were game/game related things...) Sheppy they're much less likely to bother paying for it, I think. AFC DYAJim utilities do do the best :) Sheppy If it requires less than 3 minutes to download, they probably won't bother to Sheppy pay for it. :) Sheppy Yes, Jim, you're right. Barnabas I guess you're recommending NOT shrinking files, in order to get maximum Barnabas Shareware returns, Eric? :) Sheppy Yes, exactly, Greg. If you can get away with it, don't shrink 'em. If they Sheppy had to invest lots of money in the download time, they're more likely not to Sheppy mind paying the shareware fee. :) Barnabas Sounds like voodoo to me. Seems like you might be able to hit 'em with one Barnabas more "Pay the Shareware" message in the ShrinkIt archive comments... AFL GaryJ I like the technique that Floyd Zink used in his shareware CDA (to get people AFL GaryJ to pay :) Sheppy What way that, Gary? AFL GaryJ Floyd had a message pop up every time you performed a function "Annoying message" AFL GaryJ The CDA was fully functional, but it had that ANNOYING message that said, AFL GaryJ "if you send in your shareware fee, you'll get a method of taking out the annoying message." Barnabas I caught a brief discussion on credit cards (VISA/Mastercard) on one of the Barnabas Let's Discuss boards, but I never saw it pursued further. Just how hard IS it Barnabas to get Visa/Mastercard authorization, so you can actually sell software to Barnabas people (most folks want to do it by phone)? GNO Jawaid Greg - not hard if you have a solid credit history and are incorporated. Sheppy Come on... some of you have done this, right? :) AFL Marty Marc should be able to help with this. Sheppy Yo! Marc! Lend a hand here! :) AFL Marty ::putting spotlight on Marc:: GNO Jawaid Hey, Procyon does it too :) AFL GaryJ There are services (at least in the PC world) that act as a central clearing house for GNO Jawaid Oh, you mean for _Shareware_. AFL GaryJ shareware fees, and they handle credit card orders by phone. Barnabas No, I mean for commercial products. AFL Marty They have them (one, at least) in the Mac world too. GNO Jawaid In that case, incorporate, start a bank account w/money in it, GNO Jawaid and talk to your banker about Merchant Credit services GNO Jawaid Oh, and pick a smaller bank, privately owned if possible. They're much more GNO Jawaid lenient than a large chain bank. Sheppy There was talk about creating one for the Apple II (a mass shareware by charge Sheppy business), but it died out a long while back... Barnabas I understand that incorporation can be expensive. GNO Jawaid Ooh, you're in California. Move to a state that doesn't attempt to GNO Jawaid strangle small business. M Wolfgram MC? Visa? :) Sheppy 'Specially in the State from Hell we like to call California... AFL Marty Depends on what state you incorporate in. GNO Jawaid $50 one time fee in Colorado and Missouri, like $800/year in California. Barnabas Ah, that's what I thought. California sucks, and those people who recommend Barnabas everybody should incorporate themselves for the write-offs have never even Barnabas BEEN here... Sheppy (Lynch the California legislature!! :) JWankerl Well SOMEBODY's gotta pay their salaries.... :-) AFC DYAJim Most banks won't even go near mail order phone order mc/visa Barnabas Why not? GNO Jawaid It cost Tim like $800 just to register his car in California. Sheppy Too much room for people getting screwed over, Greg. GNO Jawaid Mail order is traditionally a high-fraud realm. Barnabas (and he didn't even attempt to incorporate it! :) AFL Marty Potential for fraud is great. Sheppy (people == bank). Sheppy Ah, wouldn't it be nice if a man's word were enough to prove his worth? Sigh.. Sheppy :( GNO Jawaid Again, small banks are more willing to work with you (even mail order) M Wolfgram We've been fairly lucky... about 2-3 losses since Jan 1. GNO Jawaid Sheppy - in some nations in the world a man's word is still enough. Sheppy They ain't got as much to lose. Sheppy Yes, true, Jawaid. Very sad. GNO Jawaid Marc - but you know who they are, so you don't have to send 'em updates :) GNO Jawaid It's not as bad as shoplifting, for sure. Barnabas What about credit card authorization services? GNO Jawaid That's always part of the deal. Sometimes you get chargebacks anyway. M Wolfgram Right... but the bad $130 card # after getting an auth code still upsets me. GNO Jawaid If you don't have an imprinter you _must_ validate the cards, usually GNO Jawaid Marc - I always take the person's phone #, even though Visa/MC specifically GNO Jawaid say _not_ to. Most people will work with you on it. AFC DYAJim Yes, one person's T2 CC order from Expo East was bad, so I sent a letter asking AFC DYAJim for them to pay up; they never replied, so they never will be getting any AFC DYAJim T2 updates :) oh well! Barnabas The trick is to register them for the software on the spot, I guess... AFC DYAJim over here they don't do paper processing anyways GNO Jawaid jim - you can always run it through again, if the bounce charge isn't too GNO Jawaid much. Sheppy Idea: when a product ordered by CC is shipped, cripple it. Once you've got Sheppy your money for it, send them a working copy. :) :) AFC DYAJim not a bad idea :) GNO Jawaid Uh, that's probably illegal, Sheppy, but a good idea otherwise. :) M Wolfgram Bad idea, Shep... talk about customer satisfaction :) AFL Marty That would be a good way to get the Dept. Of Consumer Protection on your case. Barnabas How about the old "allow 6-8 weeks for delivery"? That oughta leave time to Barnabas catch the crooked ones... James S WI In other word give them version 1.0. ;) M Wolfgram :) Good one James! Sheppy Yeah, yeah, yeah... that's what ":)" means, you fools! See, James under- Barnabas :) AFC DYAJim 6-8 weeks could do it :) Sheppy stands! :) M Wolfgram :) Sheppy Okay, then, plant a virus in it that can only be disabled after you've been Sheppy paid for it...? :D Sheppy ^----- Note total lack of seriousness. This warning for humor-impaired Sheppy persons. GNO Jawaid 6-8 weeks for shipping irritates people too. The whole point of credit cards GNO Jawaid is to _avoid_ that :) Sheppy Right. Sheppy I don't buy from places that do that. Barnabas So, what kind of CC problems have people had? Outright fraud, delinquent cards M Wolfgram 6-8 weeks is usually reserved for the offers on cereal boxes :) Barnabas or people claiming they never got the product and getting the charge removed. JWankerl "Sorry, we Sheppy Blue-screen TV ads, Marc. :) JWankerl 're backordered.." GNO Jawaid Greg - I've never had much trouble. I think I once had one bad charge that GNO Jawaid I ignored ($25 or so) and definitely noone has ever tried to get nasty GNO Jawaid after the sale. M Wolfgram Bad #, unauthorized purchaser and, the best, I never purchased that. GNO Jawaid Marc - you've had an "I never purchased that"? Sheppy I think (seriously, now) the best way to go is to just accept that some people Sheppy are sleaze, and deal with it. Most people are (I insist on believing) honest, GNO Jawaid When debit cards become more popular a lot of these problems will disappear. Sheppy and your losses should be dwarfed by your positive cash flow. M Wolfgram Right... card processed at AE Boston. GNO Jawaid Most people are still definitely honest. Barnabas I don't know, Rambo Collection Agency sounds good to me... Sheppy True, Jawaid... although I don't like the debit cards I've come across. Sheppy Anyway, are most of your orders (anybody who takes them welcome to answer) by Sheppy CC or check? Barnabas How long does it take for these credit card problems to show up, Marc/Jawaid? GNO Jawaid We were about half and half. JWankerl I dunno about us - I try to stay away from that kind of stuff. GNO Jawaid Greg - within two weeks usually. M Wolfgram Most by CC... 10:1 over check at the least. GNO Jawaid for someone pulling "I didn't.." I'd guess two months or so. Sheppy Takes 'em _that_ long to copy the disks and Xerox the manual? Jeez, that's AFC DYAJim Most orders are by check for us AFL GaryJ Yeah, I would guess the convenience of credit card ordering would make sales better (and I would Sheppy sad. I knew a guy who could have the thing on the way back the next morning... Sheppy :) AFL GaryJ have guessed a 10:1 ratio) GNO Jawaid Well, they have to wait for the bill to show up to complain M Wolfgram Two weeks... also depends on where in the month the whole thing takes place. Barnabas So, if you waited a couple weeks to ship, you could avoid most problems... GNO Jawaid Hm. Perchance I'll have to go see what Joe's up to.. be right back, folks! :) Sheppy _But_ you'd tick off your customers. Barnabas Or, how's this for a solution? For products in development, send out versions M Wolfgram The loss ratio is too small to inconvienence the customer... s/w development is our biggest delay :) Barnabas that are in progress, that aren't totally complete or won't be future-compat.? Sheppy I agree, Marc. Ticking off the customer is a Bad Thing and should be avoided Sheppy at all costs. AFC DYAJim Too expensive, really, Greg AFL Marty Change your name to Claris while you're at it. AFC DYAJim It doesn't pay to send out multiple versions M Wolfgram (Which is why we're changing to a newer Magic 8 Ball to forcast release dates) AFL Marty Marc... do you handle all of your own disk duplicating? Sheppy Good move, Marc. But keep in mind this important rule of thumb: "Predicting M Wolfgram No... I use disk drives for that Barnabas Anyone know how possible it is to incorporate out of state? Matt DTS Hey! AOL finally let me through! Sheppy software release dates is stupid. If you do it, _always_ expect to be wrong." Sheppy :) James S WI Marc lol! M Wolfgram I picked up a neat toy... Fifth Generations Jukebox... hangs on the IIx and autofeeds disks... Sheppy Nifty, Marc. Work well? M Wolfgram ...makes bulking product less intense. AFL GaryJ That is a good question. M Wolfgram It seems a tad fragile, but seems to work well. AFC DYAJim where do the ejected disks go, Marc? M Wolfgram They drop into a bin beneath it... gravity fed hopper on top. MikeF32 This only fits on a Mac IIx? M Wolfgram A II, IIx, IIcx, SE/30... has to have a flat face and no eject button. Hangs over the opening lip. Barnabas How much did it cost? M Wolfgram List $230... I paid < $60. Dealer closeout. AFC DYAJim $230?!?!? M Wolfgram I wouln't have paid that - ever! Sheppy I doubt they sell a lot of them, Jim. :) M Wolfgram Actually, $60 was almost too steep. Sheppy Still insane, but vaguely understandable... M Wolfgram That's why it was a closeout :) AFL GaryJ Anyone else have a question on or off topic tonight? MikeF32 Actually, I have to admit I've been completely out of the Apple II world MikeF32 for too long. Is there a market outside of the hobbiests? MikeF32 Sheppy Death. MikeF32 yeah... MikeF32 AFL GaryJ Any earthquakes lately, Matt? SPEEDLIMIT <<-- has learned a coupld of neet things in the last few days :) AFL GaryJ Computer related, Speedlimit? Sheppy Not neat otherwise, Gary. :) AFL GaryJ (Or, in what respect?) SPEEDLIMIT yep all Apple II. Albeit it could be somewhat old news to some. Sheppy Just dull facts. Barnabas Actually, I thought tonight was Knowhowland. AFL GaryJ (I learned not to hold my mechanical pencil a certain way while approaching my desk, today). MikeF32 AFL GaryJ (THAT was valuable information to learn) Barnabas I bet you learned the hard way, too... SPEEDLIMIT how about this. did you know that approx. 75 products have been released for SPEEDLIMIT the Apple II since the beginning of this year. Sheppy How many stitches? Sheppy Commercial, shareware, or both, Speed? AFA Jay Ouch, I went on a roller coaster with a pencil in my pocket, that hurt too M Wolfgram 75? I did not know that! SPEEDLIMIT Commercial to my understanding..Sheppy AFL GaryJ No stitches. Just a puncture wound. Sheppy Wow. I wonder where the heck they all are? I ain't seen that many. Must Sheppy mostly be educational stuff that I'd never see... sigh. AFL GaryJ (Had to yank the sucker out) SPEEDLIMIT Also there are still 150 Developers still selling/updating/or developing SPEEDLIMIT products for the Apple II market. MikeF32 w0w M Wolfgram 150? I did not know that! Sheppy Uh-huh. Sheppy I find that very hard to believe. AFL GaryJ 149 of them have uploads in AUT Barnabas 150? Lesse: all the ones at Apple, everybody in here... SPEEDLIMIT also that by word of mouth/Ads in Incider/BBS's that Apple INC's Software SPEEDLIMIT solution Newsletter was mailed or should I say was ask for by nearly Sheppy >TAKE GRAIN OF SALT. SPEEDLIMIT 100,000 Apple II owners. AFC DYAJim I asked for 3 copies of the newsletter :) SPEEDLIMIT LOL M Wolfgram 100,000? Only 100,000? And 3 were jim. AFC DYAJim I had some extra inCiders around :) AFL GaryJ :) MikeF32 hahaha Sheppy Sadly, I'm too lazy/busy to call and order it. I hang my head in shame.