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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, June 22, 1993  10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
Topic:  Graphics & Animation Programming
Forum Leader:  Gary Jacobson (AFL GaryJ)

AFL GaryJ  Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum!
AFL GaryJ  Tonight, our topic is Graphics and Animation Programming!
AFL GaryJ  Let's open it right up to questions or comments about our topic
           before we move on
AFL GaryJ  to any off-topic questions.
AFL Marty  ::opening umbrella::
AFL GaryJ  (me too :)
AFC SteveB ?
AFL GaryJ  Hi Giro
AFL GaryJ  Steve was first to "raise his hand".  GA, Steve
AFC SteveB How do I do full 3200 color flickerless animation in AppleSoft?
AFL GaryJ  Yeah, right :)
GNO Jawaid Steve - ampersand routines
AFC SteveB (seriously, now :)  Whatever happened to all those animation
           toolsets that were suppsed to be released
AFC SteveB ? <ga> :p~ Jawaid :)
GNO Jawaid Nate got sick of his project.. I didn't know of any others
AFL GaryJ  Well, I know that they were still part of our trivia questions a
           couple of weeks ago, but that's
AFL GaryJ  about as far as they got.
AFL GaryJ  :)
AFL GaryJ  You're talking about the animation toolset from Apple?  
AFC SteveB Yuppahs. :)
GNO Jawaid That one was dropped as the guy who was working on it went to the
           Mac
GNO Jawaid division.
AFL Marty  That project was shelved... still gathering cobwebs.
GNO Jawaid Matt can tell you all about it
GNO Jawaid :)
AFL GaryJ  That's right.
AFC Softy  (nice segue Jawaid... ;)
AFL GaryJ  Matt, Steve wants to know if Dave Lyons is busy working on
           finishing the Animation
AFL GaryJ  Toolset :)
AFC SteveB :P Gary
Matt DTS   Yup.  And Jim Murphy is working with Bill Heineman on the Avatar
           Plus.
GNO Jawaid LOL!
AFL GaryJ  (Or more likely, if the animation toolset has been spun off for
           someone else to finish)
AFC DYAJim And Jim Mensch is finishing up a new screensaver for 6.0.2
AFL GaryJ  Matt :)
AFC SteveB The animation toolbox sounded like a nice idea... oh well.
AFL GaryJ  Yeah, it did.  
GNO Jawaid Gary - I doubt it. There's more important things like Ethernet to
           do :)
AFC Softy  Just write one Steve.  Piece of cake...  :D
AFL GaryJ  I wanted to see the animation toolset finished too.
AFL GaryJ  Oh well.
AFL GaryJ  Anyone else have a question or comment about graphics/animation?
AFL GaryJ  (Our topic tonight)
GNO Jawaid Yeah, it would have been neat.
AFL Marty  It would be nice if Apple were to release Mensch's work for
           someone else
GNO Jawaid !
AFL Marty  to finish.
AFL GaryJ  I agree.
AFL GaryJ  (And that was really my question to Matt)
AFL GaryJ  (even though I didn't say it that way at first :)
GNO Jawaid I recently saw a demo of a compiled-shape system.. it could fairly
           easily be 
AFC DYAJim I thought at one time ByteWorks was working on their own anim
           otolkit
GNO Jawaid turned into a library. 
AFL Marty  It would be nice if we all won the lottery, too.
GNO Jawaid Jim - that was the one Nate Trost was working on
AFC DYAJim yeah, what happened to it?
GNO Jawaid He got tired of writing it (I thought I said this already?
           Where've you been
AFL GaryJ  That's the one you said he got sick of working on?
GNO Jawaid all night, Jim? :-)
AFL Marty  You said that already, Jawaid :)
AFL GaryJ  Right :)
AFL GaryJ  Deja vu
AFC DYAJim oh, sorry.  I don't have infinite line mac scrollback tonight :)
AFC SteveB Mac has a 32k scrollback :)
AFC SteveB (close 'nuff to infinite, I s'pose.)
AFL Marty  :)
AFL GaryJ  Not really :)
GNO Jawaid nah.
DanP18     ?
AFL GaryJ  (But compared to the IIGS, yes :)
AFL GaryJ  GA, Dan
GNO Jawaid Anyway, like I was saying, I saw a really nice system.. uses stack
           animation,
DanP18     Did the FTA ever release the source for Modulae?
GNO Jawaid syncs on VBL, and was totally flickerless
AFL GaryJ  Where did you see this, Jawaid?
AFA Jay    in a dream? :)
GNO Jawaid Gary - let's just say I'm privileged :)
AFC DYAJim Hmm.. sounds kinda like something by CM
GNO Jawaid If anyone remembers my HemiRoids animation demo, this guy took it
           as 
AFL GaryJ  Oh!   I didn't realize :)
AFC SteveB Ooo, an animation secret :)
GNO Jawaid inspiration and did all the things I didn't know how to do :)
AFL Marty  Ut oh... secrets :)
Russell12  Dan, I haven't seen the source for Modulae.  Everything else but!
           :)
AFC DYAJim Modulae source isn't pretty
GNO Jawaid He's still working on it, and gave it to me because he started
           from my
GNO Jawaid code.  I'll pester him to release it soon.
Russell12  FTA source isn't pretty  :)
AFL GaryJ  (And this guy used it on his IIGS to do graphics for Jurasic Park,
           right?)
AFL GaryJ  (Jurassic)
AFC DYAJim "Real programmers don't use comments.  If it was hard to write, it
           should be
GNO Jawaid Sure, the closing credits :)
DanP18     It doesn't have to be pretty.  It doen't have to be in English. 
           If
AFC DYAJim hard to understand and even harder to modify." - Real
           Programmers
DanP18     it's available, I want it.
Russell12  :) Jim
AFL GaryJ  I haven't seen it available, Dan.  (But I'd like to see it too)
AFL GaryJ  (No matter what language :)
GNO Jawaid I think I know someone who got all the FTA sources.. I can't
           remember who it
GNO Jawaid was, though.
DanP18     AFC DYAJim, where did you see it?  Or did you disasm it
           yourself?
AFC DYAJim I wouldn't mind seeing Nucleus, SH, and Delta.
AFC DYAJim If I get really bored this summer I'll finish my disasm of delta
AFL GaryJ  Jawaid, is this software product you saw for the IIGS?  Is it
           something that is likely to
AFC DYAJim (it's probably about 10% done)
AFL GaryJ  see the light of day?  
GNO Jawaid Gary - it's more of a "hacker's toolkit" right now.. requires
           ORCA/C to use.
GNO Jawaid (and it was only flicker-free with my Zip turned on :(
GNO Jawaid (however, the shapes he was animating were HUGE).
GNO Jawaid You could easily do an asteroids game with it.
AFL GaryJ  Neat
AFL GaryJ  (In C, no less)
Monis      ?
GNO Jawaid (No, he uses C's inline assembly feature :-)
AFL GaryJ  Ah, a question.  GA, Monis
Monis      Very new to programing,  however as a project this summer I would
           like to find
Monis      an animation program for my daughter for the IIgs could you give
           me 
Monis      some back ground on a simple,printable program that could also use
           music and 
Monis      saved on a video tape and how would I do this  GA
AFL GaryJ  How old is your daughter, and what do you mean by "animation
           program"?
AFL GaryJ  What kinds of things would you like it to do, in the way of
           animation?
Monis      My daughter is a very bright 9 year old with cerebral palsy
           cartoons plus 
Monis      graphic arts
Monis      like to make commericials
AFC SteveB !
AFL Marty  Sounds like Cartooners would fit the bill.
AFL GaryJ  The reason I was wondering is because my kids *love* Cartooners.
AFL GaryJ  But, I'm not sure it has printing capabilities.
Monis      and you for grant writing purposes
AFL GaryJ  It does let you make little cartoon "movies" with music/sound.
AFC SteveB Cartooners, also.  I still love to play with that program.
Monis      yes but would also like to you like like charactures and art
Monis      and can I save cartooners on a video disk
AFL GaryJ  Cartooners isn't really a graphic editor, per say.  Perhaps a
           paint program of some
AFL Marty  You can record the video output of the IIGS on a videotape.
Monis      and how do you save on a video
AFL GaryJ  kind along with it would be good.
Russell12  ..sorry guys, feeling sick. Have to cut out early. thanks and
           goodnight
AFL GaryJ  Save on a video?  You mean, like a tape backup?
AFL GaryJ  Goodnight, Russell.
AFC SteveB Get better, Russell!
AFL GaryJ  (Hope you get feeling better)
Russell12  :)
Monis      well would like to use the tapes for grant funding purposes
AFL Marty  No... I mean record the animation you see on the screen to a
           videotape.
Monis      would need to be able to make lots of tapes
AFA Jay    just run a wire between the monochrome output and the Video In on
           a VCR
AFL Marty  You can create your own "actors" with a paint program.
AFL GaryJ  (For Cartooners, is that what you're referring to, Marty?)
AFL Marty  (or you can use the ones included with Cartooners)
AFL Marty  right
Monis      who makes 
Monis      Cartooners and $$
AFL Marty  I got mine from Big Red COmputer Club... about $20 I think.
AFL GaryJ  Good question (not sure on the $$$ or availability...)
AFL GaryJ  Really?  That's good.
Monis      can you intergrate other graphics to cartooners or just what is on
           that disk?
AFL GaryJ  Used to be from Electronic Arts.
AFL GaryJ  I *think* you can include other backgrounds, but I haven't played
           with it enough
AFL Marty  You can create other actors and scenes with a paint program and
AFL Marty  import them into Cartooners.
AFL GaryJ  to know for sure, and I do believe (as Marty said) that you can
           add other 
AFL GaryJ  "actors".
AFA Jay    $15 from Big Red
AFL GaryJ  That's a good deal.
AFA Jay    $10 if you're a member.
AFL Marty  I sent you the address in EMail, Monis.
AFL GaryJ  It helps if you have a hard drive for Cartooners (but it isn't
           required).
Monis      Found it in Apple incider thanks 
AFL GaryJ  (Can get kind of slow otherwise)
Monis      where can I find a "inexpensive" hard drive for the IIgs
Monis      also is apple incider really calling it quits????
AFL GaryJ  Hmmm... well, I haven't priced them lately, but Hard Drives
           International used to have
AFL Marty  I got mine from Quality Computers.  There are other vendors
           though.
ThomasO2   How difficult would be to do animation with hypercard  GS?
AFL GaryJ  an external 100 meg SCSI drive for around $399.
AFC Softy  (you'll need an interface card for the hard drive too)
Monis      alot for my budget any recondition ones around??
Monis      I just got 4 meg
AFL GaryJ  Softy is correct.  That will set you back another $90 to $110.
AFL Marty  I've seen only two types of animation with HyperCard IIGS...
AFL GaryJ  (Unless they have come down too)
James S WI Is this realy ADV?
James S WI ?
AFL Marty  one is similar to flipping the pages of a sketch book, the other
           involves...
AFC Softy  You can get a smaller hard drive (42MB) and SCSI card for about
           what a 3.5"
AFL GaryJ  You can check the classifieds online, Monis.  Sometimes people
           will sell parts of their
AFL Marty  rapidly switching icons.
AFC Softy  floppy drive would cost now.
AFL GaryJ  systems.
AFL Marty  Just trying to help a member, James.
AFL GaryJ  HI Frank
AFC Softy  Hi Frank :)
AFL GaryJ  Hi Andy
AFC SteveB Frankstah :)
BCS Frank  Hi, Gary, y'all!  :)
AFA AndyW  Hi everyone...
AFL Marty  If you're thinking about "Hyper" products I'd recommend
           HyperStudio for
AFC Softy  <---- has a ? when you get the chance Gary :)
Monis      thankyou all and once again is Apple incider really calling it
           quits
AFL Marty  animation.
AFL Marty  (over HyperCard)
GNO Jawaid Monis - yes.
BCS Frank  Yup, that's what they said, Monis.
Monis      last issue July??
AFC Softy  According to them yes...
BCS Frank  Marty, why HS over HC?
AFL GaryJ  Better support, now :)
Matt DTS   (Remember that inCider is not related to Apple Computer, Inc.)
Monis      then why has the editors keep writing saying its a rumor?  so we
           will stil
AFA AndyW  InCider will be replaced by II Alive..
Monis      subscribe?
AFL Marty  For amination, Frank... Monis' 9 year old daughter will be using
           it.
BCS Frank  Ahhh... ok
AFA AndyW  Anyone who has a subscription will automatically start getting II
           Alive...
AFL Marty  (and sound)
AFL GaryJ  Actually, Thomas asked the question about HyperCard :
AFL GaryJ  :)
BCS Frank  Paul Statt has posted about the closing of InCider....
Monis      Do you think it will be better for my daughter to use Hyperstudio
           instead?
AFC Softy  The decision to cease publication came from above the editors
           level.
AFL Marty  Yes, I do.
BCS Frank  InCider subscribers will have a choice of continuing with II
           Alive, with
Monis      How easy to use 
AFL GaryJ  Instead of HyperCard, right?  (Or instead of Cartooners?)
BCS Frank  their new Mac magazine, or getting a refund.  II Alive is the
           default setting.
AFL Marty  Even teachers can use it (it's that easy).
Monis      difference please in Hypercard and Hyperstudio?
AFA AndyW  Hey James...  Forgotten to close any comments recently????   ;)
BCS Frank  HS is easier than HC to get started in...
AFL Marty  Time doesn't permit a detailed comparison.
BCS Frank  doesn't requ. hard drive, has a run time module.
BCS Frank  Both great products.
AFL Marty  HS will be easier for your daughter to use, IMHO.
James S WI Andy, I am just spoiled bacuse it is imposable to make that kind
           of mistake with the editor I use 
Monis      both by roger Wagner?
James S WI at work.
AFC Softy  HyperCard is an Apple product.
AFL Marty  HyperStudio is Roger Wagner's product.
BCS Frank  HS by RWagner, HC by Apple.
AFC SteveB HyperCard by Apple Computer, Ink... HyperStudio by Roger Wagner
           Publishing.
James S WI It shows comments in a differnt color.  You KNOW when you didn't
           close one because all your code
James S WI turns blue.
AFC SteveB (Just in case you missed the first three clarifications :)
AFC Softy  (gads.... GMTA overkill :)
Monis      Thank you I believe it is time for me t give someone else a turn
BCS Frank  "blue code?
AFL GaryJ  Ok, let's let Softy ask his question.  GA, Softy
BCS Frank  "... sounds grim.
AFL GaryJ  (You're welcome, Monis)
GNO Jawaid I sure hope this works :)
Monis      thank you all for all your help you all have been great
AFC Softy  Actually... this ? came up in AUT... but how do you create an INIT
           do put a 
James S WI Well, you can define then to be any color you want. Default is
           grey.
AFC Softy  picture in the desktop (like in Finder)
AFA AndyW  Well, serves you right for relying on your editor to tell you when
           you mess up!
AFC SteveB You're welcome, Monis :)
AFC Softy  (besides the pic itself... :)
AFL Marty  Simplest way is to use SuperConvert, Spotty.
GNO Jawaid Where oh where is my date?
AFC Softy  Is there any other way?  (Speedlimit asked this btw.. :)
AFC SteveB He's probably out watching Jurassic Park, Jawaid :)
AFC SteveB <Running like HELL :)> ;)
Matt DTS   Hey, none of that now.
AFC DYAJim hi Matt
BCS Frank  <You could configure HC to look and act like the finder with
           picture....
James S WI I believe you have to post a message in the message center to
           change the desktop.
AFC DYAJim That's if you want it permanently changed
Matt DTS   You use both MessageCenter and Desktop.  See the Window Manager
           chapter in TBR 3.
James S WI ?
AFL GaryJ  Does that do it for you, Softy?
AFC Softy  Um.... I dunno... :)
AFC Softy  I got 4 different ways there... :)
AFC Softy  What I was looking for is maybe a code stub that you could attach
           the picture 
AFC Softy  to.
AFC Softy  (or am I in the Twilight Zone here? :)
AFL Marty  That's Twilight II Zone.
AFC Softy  LOL!  :D
AFC DYAJim <slap> Marty :)
AFC DYAJim (yes, I am awake :)
AFL Marty  Delayed reaction :)
AFC Softy  Anyone know of any sample code in ADV that can do this?
AFC Softy  (and be 6.0.1 friendly??  ;D)
AFL GaryJ  I was trying to see if we had some....
James S WI Super Convert will make in init with a code stub and a picture for
           you.
GNO Jawaid Ooh, I found a C 2.0 bug :)
James S WI What's new?
AFC Softy  Don't tell us Jawaid... tell Mike... ;)
GNO Jawaid No, no, I mean... Oh. Be nice, James :)
AFC SteveB ORCA/C 2.0 buggy???? no -way!-
AFA AndyW  What is it??
GNO Jawaid Fortunately it's a small program so I can use my tried and true
AFC Softy  (2.0.1 is coming. :)
AFC SteveB Tell us Jawaid, I'm interested :)
AFL GaryJ  Super Convert won't work for you, Softy?
GNO Jawaid "Use ORCA/Disassembler And Follow The Compiled Code" trick. :)
GNO Jawaid (I haven't tracked it down yet)
AFC Softy  Well... it will when I buy it.. :)
AFC Softy  Thanks...  <done>
AFL GaryJ  There's nothing in our library (source code) that I could find on
           desktop pictures.
AFL GaryJ  Let's move on to James' question.  GA, James
AFL Marty  Spotty... send me the pic and I'll convert it for you.
James S WI Does anyone know of an RCS system for the GS or have some C source
           for one?  An RCS is a Revision...
James S WI  Control System.  Keeps a database of every version of every
           source file in a project so 
James S WI you can always go back to a version that worked when you screw
           up.
AFL GaryJ  Hmm...  I don't.
AFL GaryJ  Not that will keep track of it for you.
GNO Jawaid James - I have the UNIX 'diff' utility almost working. It's the
           core of
AFL GaryJ  (Teach :)
James S WI An RCS also help a lot when you have more that one person working
           on a project.  You each
GNO Jawaid RCS and SCCS..  supposedly Byteworks sells a diff-like utility,
           which you
GNO Jawaid could use to build a RCS system.
James S WI have to check a file in and out to use it so you don't change
           something someone else is changing.
GNO Jawaid (it's in the little-known ORCA Utility Pak #1)
AFC DYAJim ahh. utility pak #1.. I've got that somewhere!
AFC DYAJim all I remember from it is "wc"
James S WI Little known is right.  I dodn't know about it.
GNO Jawaid I think diff is suffering from a "UNIX assumes INT is 32-bits"
           problem, an
GNO Jawaid haven't been able to track it down yet.
AFC SteveB Ya learn something new every day.  Like I learned Eddie Vedder was
           in the movie "Singles."
James S WI Anyway, an RCS doen't just compair files, it stores the files for
           you.  Make a backup every time you
James S WI "check in" a file.
James S WI Anyway, I can create a very simple one with some batch files. I
           guess. (GA)
GNO Jawaid James - right.. but an RCS-like system could be easily built with
           a diff
GNO Jawaid program to base it on.
GNO Jawaid (That's one of the reasons I really want a 'diff' for GNO)
AFL GaryJ  Anything else, James?
James S WI The latest issue of the C users jurnal has source for a simple RCS
           but it is so simple it is
James S WI wrth less (IMO).
James S WI Nope.  GA
AFL GaryJ  Ok, anyone else tonight - on or off topic question or comment?
AFA AndyW  Anyone know the Status byte for the ADB chip??
James S WI $C027?
AFL GaryJ  Memory location?
AFL GaryJ  (ADV Trivia night again :)
AFA AndyW  No..  The byte used in SendInfo...
AFA AndyW  The SetModes data byte..
AFC DYAJim C users journal is a cool magazine - sometimes
AFC DYAJim What are you looking for/  the memory location of it in adb
           microcontroller
AFC DYAJim ram?
AFA AndyW  And, the ReadKeyMicroData ReadModes byte..
AFA AndyW  No, I just want to know what the bits mean..
AFC DYAJim why can't you just use the toolcalls?
AFC DYAJim oh, ok..
AFA AndyW  I am using the tool calls, but there's no description of the modes
           byte in TBR1
AFA AndyW  anyway..
AFA Jay    It's in the firmware
AFL GaryJ  Hmmm..  OK, I was lost in the hardware ref :)
AFC DYAJim one sec
AFA Jay    I'm on 189 of my Firmware, not sure if it's the one everyone else
           uses.
AFA AndyW  Never mind..  I found it..
AFL GaryJ  Where did you find it?
AFA AndyW  That's where it is Jay..
Matt DTS   Cheer up.
AFL GaryJ  Ah, ok.  
AFC DYAJim need anything else Andy?
AFL GaryJ  Thanks, Jay.