America Online APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG Tuesday, July 20, 1993 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time Topic: Sound Programming Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFL GaryJ) AFL GaryJ Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum! AFL GaryJ Tonight, our topic is "Apple II Sound Programming" AFA Jay PUNS! AFL GaryJ (yes, I was right the first time) Sheppy Er, yes, you did say that, huh? :) AFL GaryJ Tonight we can discuss anything having to do with the Apple II and the noises it makes. AFL GaryJ (Not counting fans) Sheppy (and the associated puns that go with it all) Barnabas :) AFL GaryJ So, does anyone have any sound advice for us this evening? Sheppy Are any music programmers here to sound off tonight? AFL GaryJ Or a question to voice? Barnabas Oh, just saw your question, Eric. Yes, almost done (tricky little 40/80 mode Barnabas problem with mouse sensitivity right now). Sheppy These sound chats always generate a lot of nonsense. Sheppy Oh, okay. Send the source when you're done with it. I haven't looked at the Sheppy build you sent yesterday. Sheppy (this morning, I mean... :) Barnabas Well, look! I won't send until I get your feedback on it. Barnabas I have a topic that may be of some interest... AFL GaryJ (oohh... feedback. That's a goodone :) AFL GaryJ Go ahead, Barnabas Sheppy Oh. I'll do that after the chat -- can't unpack until then. Barnabas Yes, too bad you don't have 2 IIGS's like I do... }:) Sheppy Or a de-SHK CDA. AFL GaryJ (Quadraphonic sound :) Sheppy Greg? Barnabas I have a little digitized sound re-arranging technique which I believe will Sheppy Oh! Right! :) Barnabas result in improved compression with standard algorithms (like GSHK). AFL GaryJ Neat. Better than ACE, of course? Barnabas It should improve even sounds packed with ACE, although the ideal improvement Barnabas would come with regular sounds (which don't pack very well, at least with Barnabas ShrinkIt). AFL GaryJ What's the concept behind the compression? Barnabas I'm wondering how much interest there would be, and what the best type of Barnabas program interface would be to do such a program. Barnabas (Since I don't want to reinvent the wheel, re: digitizing programs, sound Barnabas conversion programs, ACE packing programs, etc.... some sort of NDA, maybe?) Barnabas It isn't a compression routine. It's a reorganization routine to make the Sheppy NDA probably. Barnabas sound data more linear/repetitive in nature. Just reorganizes the data in Barnabas such a way that the sine waves tend to turn into straight lines. AFL GaryJ Oh, I see. And then, GSHK would compress it better. Barnabas Yes. Sheppy Right, Gary. AFC Softy brb.. :) AFL GaryJ (I finally understand :) Barnabas Problem is, if I make a separate app (the easiest approach), I'm not sure how Barnabas much it would be used, since it would mean going from digitizing software, then AFL GaryJ An NDA might be the best way, or just an application. AFL GaryJ That's true. Sheppy An NDA would be best. If there were a modular compression program for the GS, Barnabas (perhaps) to ACE packing software, then to my software, then to GSHK. Sheppy you'd want to write a module for it... but there isn't one. Sheppy Go with an NDA. In fact, it would be especially good if the NDA would do ACE Barnabas But as an NDA, I will require a tremendous amount of memory and I can't take Sheppy as well, since the only programs I know of that do ACE store in a proprietary Sheppy format. Barnabas advantage of a sound already in memory.... Sheppy (instead of Apple's format) Barnabas Why is that? Sheppy I think most ACE programs were released before Apple set aside a filetype for Sheppy them. Barnabas Hmmm... so what are the popular formats I would have to support? Sheppy The output of ACER, for example, crashes several other programs that I've used. Sheppy (and the Audio Animator software's output does the same). Barnabas (Its a feature... keeps you from using competitive products). Barnabas :) Sheppy Yeah, maybe. AFL GaryJ I think so :) Barnabas OK... Acer format, AA format, Apple format... then, of course, the un-ACED AFL GaryJ Features we can do without. Barnabas formats... Sheppy I don't really think you should probably bother with most of those. If you Barnabas (I don't keep up-to-date on them... need to call Resource Central and order, Sheppy do ACE, just do Apple's format, since I think it's stupid to use proprietary Sheppy formats. Barnabas but I hate to get a new package and them maybe they release new Notes the next Barnabas day... BCS Frank Hi, Marty, Gary, Shep, Muse and Barnabas :) Barnabas I meant, importing other formats, Eric... AFL GaryJ Hi Frank Sheppy Hi, Frank. AFL Marty Hi Frank Sheppy Ah. Barnabas Hi, Frank. AFL GaryJ Kind of like the SHR Convert of sounds. Sheppy Heh. That'd actually be kind of nice to have... although I think AudioZap Barnabas Well, like I said, I don't really want to go into all that detail myself, Sheppy tends to do that (but the version I have now doesn't work with my digitizer). Sheppy I'd recommend just an NDA that does your reorganization, Greg. AFL GaryJ I agree. I think an NDA would be best. Barnabas since it would be to a large extent reinventing the wheel. I was kinda hoping Barnabas some sound person would say "We can swing a deal with IPC stuff."! Barnabas I have been leaning toward an NDA, except that (if they have the file in Sheppy That's actually a good idea. Hook yourself up so that IPC stuff can call you; Barnabas memory, let's say) they have to save to disk, maybe close the file to free up Sheppy then sound program authors can use you. Barnabas memory because sounds can be huge, then do the conversion... icky. AFC Softy bak! :) AFL GaryJ re-hi, Softy Barnabas Except I don't think they will, unless it becomes a standard... which might AFL GaryJ Yes, I understand the problem. I think most sound applications that the Barnabas mean having to do a whole app, you see the dilemma? AFL GaryJ NDA might be used with use a lot of memory too. Barnabas Sometimes they just grab ALL the memory... Barnabas (or at least MaxBlock). AFL GaryJ Do both :) AFL GaryJ (NDA & application :) AFL GaryJ Same code, slightly different interface. AFL GaryJ Hi Steve AFL Marty STEVE AFC SteveB MARTY Barnabas Well, here's the thing: an NDA would be the simple code, although the interface BCS Frank Steve! :) AFC SteveB Hi everyone! :) Sheppy Maybe you could write a library or something, then an NDA just to make a way AFC Softy Nephew! :) Sheppy to use the code until other people use your library. Barnabas is more intricate than an app... an app would really need to be more Barnabas comprehensive... AFL GaryJ By the way, if anyone else has a question or comment (on topic), feel free to raise your hand. BCS Frank Sure.... Barnabas If I wanted to get into somebody elses program, which would be the top one? BCS Frank What's the topic? :) Barnabas Hacking. :) AFL GaryJ Sound Programming on the Apple II BCS Frank Ahhh... thanks :) AFL GaryJ Greg's program is really on topic, since it deals with sounds :) Sheppy Sound programs? AudioZap is fairly significant. That's the only one that Sheppy comes to mind, really. AFL Marty Sound Shop Barnabas I think I have a version of that somewhere... although I think it crashed. AFL GaryJ What do you mean "get into"? You mean, which program would you want to make sure AFL GaryJ to test your NDA with? Barnabas Never heard of Sound Shop. AFL Marty It ships with every copy of HyperStudio. Sheppy I haven't seen Sound Shop in years -- I don't think it's maintained any more. Barnabas No, I mean, if I wanted to get some other programmer to incorporate my format BCS Frank The HyperStudio app? Barnabas as a feature... Sheppy Oh--- right! :) Sheppy I was thinking of another program named "Sound Shop". :) AFL Marty You're thinking of Sound Studio. Barnabas Admit it, Eric... you were thinking of Print Shop :) Sheppy Er... maybe so. :) AFC Softy (or SoundOff!) :D AFL Marty Sounds good to me. Sheppy That could be. Or maybe "Zark Off!" :) Barnabas Oooh... just found I have TWO copies of AudioZap on my "Lost Programs AFC Softy Shep.... there isn't THAT much ozone in Santa Barbara... so what gives? ;) AFL GaryJ :) Sheppy I'm naturally pathetic. :) Barnabas " partition... ones in all CAPS, so its probably the older one... :) Sheppy No artificial patheticness or stupidity. All natural, etc. :) BCS Frank :: sigh :: Been awhile since a really good Flash Gordon movie.... :( Sheppy I don't know what the current version of AudioZap is. I've heard rumors about Sheppy a 2.0, but don't know much about it, or if it really exists. Sheppy afk AFC Softy (with so many rich people from LA moving there now.. they may have been AFC Softy importing it in.. :) Barnabas Mod. Dates: Tue. Feb 12, 1991 (for the mixed case); Tue. Oct. 9, 1990 for CAPS. AFC SteveB (I have a question when anyone's ready to answer it :) Sheppy bak Barnabas GA, I'm done. AFL GaryJ Let's take Steve's question. GA, Steve Sheppy I'm pretty sure there are newer versions than that. Barnabas Check your mod. date then, Eric... AFC SteveB Is there any easy way to find out if any files in a given directory are open? AFC SteveB Or do I haveta walk thru each file and try to _OpenGS it? AFC SteveB GA :) AFL GaryJ Hmm... Barnabas You could try getting ref. info. AFL GaryJ Yeah, I was thinking something like that... Sheppy Try a ChangePath on the directory. It probably fails if a file in the direct- Sheppy ory is open. Sheppy 'Course, if it succeeds, you have to undo it. :) AFL GaryJ Right :) AFC SteveB Hmm... I wonder if changing the path to the same file name would work as a test. Barnabas I don't think so, Eric... let me see... nope, works in the Finder! Sheppy Oh, well... it was a thought. Barnabas (Although I wouldn't lay high odds on the system functioning afterward... bet Barnabas it was never tested! :) Sheppy You're probably right, Greg. They shouldn't allow that. Barnabas Although... what would it hurt? Filename isn't used after the Open call right? AFL GaryJ It's possible a file could be open from another machine (if it's on an Appleshare volume), so I'm not AFC SteveB Hmm.. looks like getting refInfo is the way to go... thanks :) Sheppy Cached data would be lost, maybe. AFL GaryJ sure there's really a way to tell. AFC DYAJim hi everyone! I'm here with Matt in Kansas.. Sheppy 'Lo, Jim. AFL GaryJ Hi Jim Barnabas Matt who? BCS Frank <-- :: Waving to everyone in Kansas! : AFL GaryJ How is Kansas? Barnabas ;) Barnabas Flat. AFL GaryJ Wet too, probably. AFC DYAJim yes, very flat! flooded, but it didn't rain today.. Barnabas Nondescript. AFC Softy Flat.... but lot's of ocean front property. :D AFL GaryJ Ask Matt if there's a way to tell if a file is open in a given directory. AFL GaryJ (That's Steve's question.... trying to figure out a way) AFL GaryJ Hi Andy Sheppy Dull, dull, dull. AFA Andy Hi Gary :) BCS Frank Have you seen Iowa float by? Sheppy :) AFC DYAJim what do you mean by in a given directory? Barnabas No, I heard it was down in New Orleans by now... AFL GaryJ Anty Em's Farm? Sheppy In other words, we want to be able to find out if there are _any_ open files AFC Softy Yes.. in a given directory Jim Sheppy in a directory. Do you have to scan through them all? Barnabas Or do the ref info... we already mentioned that. AFC DYAJim Basically, yes. If you're an init, you can patch GS/OS and watch Open/Close calls, but that's about AFC DYAJim it. Sheppy Why use GetRefInfo? You want to loop through trying all possible refNums, Sheppy looking at the returned pathname until you're told that a file is in the Barnabas Would you have to ExpandPath on the ref. info to make sure you got the full Sheppy directory you're looking at? That's sillier than trying to open every file. Barnabas pathname, or is it expanded internally? Sheppy It's expanded already. Barnabas No, it could be done more quickly because you would only read ONE directory, AFC Softy {{Sandy}} AFL GaryJ Hi Sandy Sheppy But you'd have to try every possible refNum. That's absurd. AFL GaryJ (Speaking of Kansas :) AFL SandyB ::being quiet:: AFA Andy [[[]]] Boss Barnabas as opposed to opening all the files. Usually aren't many refNums, Eric. AFL SandyB [] everyone BCS Frank Sandy :) AFL GaryJ Why do you want to do this, Steve? (Perhaps there's another approach) Sheppy But you don't know how many there are. For all you know, the open files have Sheppy refnums 1 and 32,000. Sheppy Unlikely, but possible (in theory). AFC DYAJim Oh, there seems to be a better way. Barnabas Well, yes, don't know what the overhead of that call is (although from stepping AFC SteveB Gary, because I don't want my program to die right in the middle of a loop of ChangePathGS's... AFC DYAJim (this is Matt) AFC SteveB ...when it tries to move an open file. AFC DYAJim Try GetRefNum instead of GetRefInfo. Barnabas through GS/OS, I know it is really extensively expansively large and ugly. AFC DYAJim That way, you can do what someone suggested and ask GS/OS about the open status for each file in a Barnabas Jim is channeling Matt! :) AFC DYAJim given directory, instead of the other way around where you ask GS/OS about each open file. AFL GaryJ :) Sheppy Ah! That would work. GetRefNum on all the files in the directory; if you get Sheppy a non-error, then the file is open. AFL GaryJ $60 AFL GaryJ (is the error) AFL GaryJ dataUnavail Barnabas Wow... the table's moving all by itself... :) AFC SteveB Ahh, thats another approach... good idea! Thanks :) AFC Softy Hi Joe :) AFC Softy (bye Joe :) AFL GaryJ (Must have seen Sandy in the room :) AFL GaryJ Nah :) AFL GaryJ Ok, that leaves our queue empty! AFL GaryJ Our schedule topic tonight is Apple II Sound Programming Barnabas ? AFL GaryJ GA, Barnabas Barnabas For those latecomers, a recap: what are the top 3rd-party sound digitizing Barnabas programs? (FMI) Barnabas (OK, nobody knows!) AFL GaryJ You're talking about players, or digitizers too? Barnabas Another question: how does 6.0.1 handle the sound scraps with the new clipboard Barnabas stuff? Barnabas (digitizers) AFA Andy I have the AE card, but the software doesn't work. I have to use the HS card AFA Andy record. AFA Andy ^too AFC DYAJim I have a FutureSound. AFL GaryJ I have FutureSound too Sheppy I use the Audio Animator software, for lack of anything else. AFC DYAJim The software has some strong points (like a realtime VU meter that tells you how strong Barnabas I do too, Jim. Piece of crap, eh? AFC DYAJim your signal is at that time), but apart from that, the software is usuable but not great. AFC DYAJim sure beats my old supersoniq tho. Barnabas (At least the software is). AFA Andy I can't get it to record at all. AFC DYAJim the software was written in aztec C I think Barnabas Well, I've been disassembling the FutureSound software, and it is so incredibly AFC Softy Econ has a digitizing app coming out for SoundMiester... I think? :) AFA Andy Eddie and I have been over and over what might be wrong. We can't figure it AFA Andy out. Barnabas poorly written, it is no wonder that it crashes so much... more amazing is that Barnabas it ever works! AFC DYAJim yeah, DigitalSession, Softy, but I heard it wasn't too hot AFA Andy ReSteve :) AFL GaryJ Sound scraps with 6.0.1 can be played by clicking the speaker icon. AFL Marty hey Steve AFC SteveB (Bad AOL, BBBAADD AOL. Rehi :) AFL GaryJ Hi again, Steve :) Barnabas Do they have to be copied from memory into memory in order to get in the Barnabas clipboard, or does the Scrap Mgr. know enough to send them to disk (since they Barnabas could be huge...) AFL GaryJ I'm not sure on the size issue. AFL GaryJ You can use the Sound control panel to copy a sound to the clipboard, but I don't know what happens if Barnabas Do you feel the presence of any wise spirits you'd like to channel for us, Jim? AFL GaryJ the sound is gigantic. Barnabas :) AFC SteveB School tomorrow, I better go. Goodnight, everyone! Barnabas Later Steve. AFC Softy 'nite Steve :) AFL GaryJ School? AFL Marty Seeya Steve AFL GaryJ Goodnight, Steve Barnabas (You summer-school wimp) AFA Andy Night Steve! AFC Softy Summah Skeuwl :) AFL GaryJ We have no class here. AFC SteveB (FY, Greg :) Nite! Sheppy Hey, Greg. Cut it out! Barnabas :) Barnabas I think he must have meant For Your (I)nformation... :) AFL GaryJ Hi Pest AFC DYAJim no spirits yet.., greg :) Sheppy Anybody going to say anything impressive... or at least remotely interesting? AFL GaryJ Ok, I was just going to ask if Jim's alter-ego had any ideas about Pest II hi Gary AFL GaryJ Greg's question :) Barnabas What, asking me to speaking again, Eric? ;) AFA Andy Hi Vern :) AFL GaryJ Ok, any other sound advice tonight? :) Sheppy (Obviously, Greg is to be excluded, since nothing he says is either impressive Sheppy or remotely interesting). AFA Andy BRB Pest II hi Andy AFL GaryJ (It's almost time to go free-for-all) AFC Softy ::chanting::: "Eedy beedy... chili beanie... the spirits are about to speak!" Barnabas Translation: Eric doesn't understand the technical nature of my conversation.:) AFL Marty lol AFL GaryJ Oh no, a commercial coming up. Sheppy Hmph. Barnabas :) Sheppy More like: Greg is such a boring conversationalist that he puts everyone to Sheppy sleep. AFL GaryJ Text week, our chat will be about Operating Systems (System 6.0.1) and AFC DYAJim Yawn..:) AFL GaryJ Kansas Fest discussion. AFL GaryJ (That's the commercial :) AFL GaryJ Hi THE ICON Sheppy Oh, super -- a chat about an SSW we don't have yet. How fun. AFC Softy Speaking of 6.0.1...... }:) AFC DYAJim yeah no kfest news yet -- too early! sorry Barnabas Text Week is all we Apple II users ever get on AOL... :) Sheppy :) AFL GaryJ Well, the fest is there, that's what's important this year :) AFL GaryJ Were you going to speak of 6.0.1, Softy? AFL GaryJ (Or were you just commenting on our current discussion?) AFC Softy Yeah... when we gonna get it here? I have a 6.0.1 chat of my OWN soon. :D Barnabas Say, anybody know anything about 5.0.2? Heard it was out, but it's not on AOL:) AFL Marty "When it gets here." AFL GaryJ Has anyone confirmed if it exists on GEnie? AFC Softy What's GEnie? :) AFL Marty It wasn't there as of 6:30 pm. AFC DYAJim I don't have 6.0.1 yet either but I should get it tomorrow :) AFC DYAJim I don't think GEnie will get it any sooner.. AFL GaryJ Then that was a nasty rumor. Barnabas How's that, Jim? AFC DYAJim Kfest, Kfest, Kfest, Greg :) AFL GaryJ Could be, Jim :) AFC DYAJim I don't have too many blank disks tho.. Barnabas Ach, so! Sheppy It would show up tomorrow if I ordered a copy of it tonight, you know. Anybody Sheppy want to contribute $1 or more to this worthy cause? :) AFL GaryJ Do it, Eric! Barnabas That's true, and I bet 6.0.1 is a low priority for filling your floppies... AFL GaryJ (We need it here :) Pest II oops gotta run AFL GaryJ Goodnight, Pest Barnabas Would Apple sue if you just distributed it without getting the official? Sheppy Yeah, right. You wish. Then I'd wind up buying it twice -- once online, and Barnabas (Since you've already sent in the form?) Sheppy again with the copy that arrives in a month or more after I order it. Sheppy No thanks -- that's what happened with 6.0. Pest II keep us posted on KFest news (like it's not really the last one is it???) AFC DYAJim how would appl e prove it, Greg? Barnabas I mean, sue AOL, Jim... AFL GaryJ They could prove it if they hadn't sent out the licensed copies yet :) Barnabas But, do they want that kind of bad publicity, especially now? Sheppy How many months ago were we told that it would be posted "any day now"? :) Cletus H Are we refering to 6.0.1? Barnabas Yes AFL GaryJ We were told that it was "shipping" (and it has been from Resource Central), but Cletus H Just drop in AFC DYAJim hi Cletus! long time no see! AFL GaryJ what that means in terms of when Online Systems get it is anyone's guess AFL GaryJ (since Apple has not given us any clues) AFL GaryJ Hi Cletus Sheppy They don't seem to be in much hurry to get people using it. Cletus H Hi Jim, Gary , GanG ;-)) Barnabas It sounds to me like Apple is in more serious trouble than even the press is AFC Softy Gary... they can't do that due to non-clue disclosure agreements. :D Barnabas making out, if they are as disorganized as they apparently seem to be... AFC Softy hi Bill :) AFL GaryJ Right, Softy :) BilMo Hi, guys...what's up? AFL GaryJ Hi BilMo AFC DYAJim yeah it does Greg AFL GaryJ We're discussing System 6.0.1, right now. AFL SandyB Interesting, isn't it, that all this stuff about Apple comes out after Sculley steps down? AFC DYAJim amazing the A2CE group didn't all get cut or reassigned BilMo What stuff? AFL GaryJ (Kind of past the "official" part of tonight's chat, the scheduled topic being Apple II Sound AFL GaryJ programming) BilMo (I HATE coming in on the middle of something!) ;) Barnabas Kind of like all the stuff that comes out after every election, eh? Cletus H << me to >> Sheppy Yeah -- what stuff? AFA Andy Great, Bill. You made it for the end ;) AFL GaryJ We're just getting warmed up, BilMo :) AFC Softy Apple (and IBM) took a dive on Wall Street today... BilMo Well, I'm no good with programming, but I do have some interesting news.... Cletus H really? Barnabas Damn! Damn! I wanted to buy some stock the next time it dove! AFC Softy (with no water in the pool.... :) AFL SandyB Our newspapers are full of negative Apple talk. AFL GaryJ RAM prices haven't helped matters. BilMo regarding sound for the IIgs. AFL SandyB Bar, wait a few weeks, it's going way down. AFC Softy What kind of news Bill? AFL GaryJ Go for it, BilMo Barnabas Think so? I thought everybody was saying the layoffs would push the stock up, Sheppy Well, IBM's in an eternal dive... :) Barnabas ultimately... AFL GaryJ (We'd like to hear) BilMo Yeah, I saw that in today's USA Today. Technology stocks in general have.... BilMo been taking a bath lately. BilMo Oh, right news. Who here's familiar with Sound Source Unlimited? AFL GaryJ (1 Meg SIMS have jumped from $39 to $79 per meg) Cletus H Mac CO.? AFC Softy (ouch Gary!) Barnabas Let's have a show of blank stares, please... :) Sheppy Who? AFL GaryJ Sound Source Unlimited? (not me) AFA Andy Me either. BilMo They make sound files for the Mac and PC. Stuff like Star Trek, T2, etc... Barnabas SSU? Sounds like a Nazi college... :) AFC Softy T2??? :D Cletus H didn't they do clip sounds? BilMo They call 'em AudioClips. AFA Andy Terminator 2, Softy :) Sheppy Softy. :) AFC Softy oh... wait.... T2.... NOT T-II... :D BilMo Anyway, yours truly is working on converting their wares into IIgs rSounds.... Barnabas Oh, that question in the Let's Discuss, right? BilMo for them even as we speak! Sheppy Ah! BilMo Barnabus: Right. AFA Andy Cool :) Cletus H Good for you On a CD? AFL GaryJ Neat :) AFC Softy (pardon the pun but.... :) That's sounds great Bill! :) Barnabas Couldn't GS users buy the Mac disks and use the HFS FST, as was mentioned in AFL GaryJ Hi Hellian Barnabas ? Hellian hey people :) Cletus H Hey Dude Barnabas (that ? was a trailing ? for the preceeding line, Gary...) BilMo Yes, but then you still have to convert them into rSounds. Cletus H Nope SOund Limitations right Bill AFL GaryJ As was mentioned in?? what? BilMo I'm converting them for SSU, so _you_ won't have to. Hellian BIG QUESTION... Hellian ANYONE READY? BilMo GA Barnabas I dunno... don't you go into the Graphics and Sound Let's Discuss area and look Barnabas at all the New Messages? AFA Andy Not yet, Hellian :D BilMo Not Today I haven't....What's been said? AFL GaryJ Oh, you were referring to AGS. Hellian Can anybody convert those sprite files from the immortal to something useable? Cletus H Well I'm ready dude shoot Barnabas I dunno if anything's new today... AFL GaryJ (Ok :) Cletus H Bill Heineman can AFL GaryJ What, Hellian? Hellian Mr moldy burger himself... he likes root beer, cletus :) Barnabas Dave Lyons can... Steve Wozniak can... Ronald Reagan can (talk about it)... Hellian gary... The immortal is a game for ECA :) Cletus H Loves Lobster too... BilMo Hmm...BRB, gonna go check out new msgs in ags. AFC DYAJim Will Harvey can AFA Andy Clinton can change his mind about it :) AFL GaryJ Immortal, yes, but what do you want to do with the sprite files? AFC DYAJim but I wouldn't gamble on anyone else unless they disassembled it (a major pain) Hellian I met him at the apple expo last year, cletus. I bout him a root beer :) AFA Andy Several times :D Barnabas LOL ANDY! Sheppy :) Barnabas Make an understandable game, maybe? Hellian Gary... I want to make my own litle levels and death scenes :) he he he AFL GaryJ Oh, I see :) Barnabas (I can't seem to get out of pits when I fall in... although the manual says Cletus H I went to dinner with him dude and sat at his feet as he talked to Barnabas to move the joystick back and forth...) Hellian can u do it?, gary? AFC Softy They're putting two new faces on Mount Rushmore..... Bill and Bill... :) AFL SandyB [] all, I like a chat with solid info and this one always teaches something. You're good, Gary!! Cletus H Well Back to System 6.0.1 Hellian Gary, can u do it? Cletus H I had to replace tool 27 today AFC DYAJim (I explained to Bill in person three different times how file type assignments and printer drivers... Barnabas I take it you can get out of pits, Hellian, since it sounds like you've Barnabas completed the game? AFL GaryJ I haven't tried, Hellian (haven't examined them to see how they're designed) AFC DYAJim ...work, and he still took three years to get it. --Matt) AFL GaryJ I have the game, however. Hellian barnabas... i can for the nintendo version... but the IIgs thats another thing Barnabas Why, how different are the controls? Barnabas (direction-wise, I mean?) Hellian you use the a and b buttons on the nintendo Barnabas Oh.